center. and later at noon we'll have coverage live on c-span. this talk was part of the annual civil war institute conference at gettysburg college. it's a little over an hour. >> good afternoon, everyone. i am peter car michael, member of the history department here at gettysburg college. i am also the director of the civil war institute. and it's my pleasure to welcome back t.j. styles to cwi. he spoke yesterday afternoon as you all know. he spoke on george armstrong custer based upon a book he has

received the pulitzer for. this afternoon he's going to speak on another misunderstood character, jesse james. it's really at the point of a new wave scholarship focused on civil war warfare. they've all been doing work on what many have considered to be the periphery of the civil war. and now we have a more kpansive view of civil war military history. jesse james unfortunately sometimes is perceived as a robin hood figure. and we also see him being a political, that he's part of those bandits. i think what's so impressive is

he has taken this man and enabled us to see a man who, we should note, has left very few written records. but a man who was during the civil war, who was deeply political. and so it is my pleasure to bring back to the stage t.j. styles. [ applause ] >> thank you very much. my grandfather did some public speaking and once he was going to talk, someone came up to him in the lobby and said i really want to go to the ball game, is this guy any good? he said sometimes i finds him good, sometimes i find him disappointing. so if you're disappointed, i apologize. jesse james was my first subject as a biographer. when i wrote about him, i came

to him because i want today bright about the civil war in reconstruction as one story. and i didn't want to write a boring story. and what i found is does this person know best your popular culture? in fact, had a significant role in american history. and that rather than debunking him, i found he probably played a much more important role than people had previously realized. and that role is very clesly tied to the civil war. now, i'll talk later about how that whole robin hood image emerge said but in fact the proper way to understand him, the reason why we even know his name is because of the civil war. now, i'm going to be talking about that civil war a little built before i even get into jesse james. and reason is because much of this history, he's quite young.

let's start about the guerilla warfare that wracked missouri during the civil war. just a couple of facts i've got up on the screen, i'll tell you why this was such a traumatic event and how it could give rise to jesse james. in one thing in 1864 the state conducted a census and found it was missing about one third of the state of the population. now, they weren't all dead but a lot of them had fled or had been driven out or simply weren't available. they were displaced for counting. another fact was that in one study done in trials of civilians by military conditions of the u.s. army, 42% were in the state of missouri. that is more than in the occupied areas of all 11 confederate states combined match that gives you an idea of

how savage this war was. so let's try to understand that. missouri was the northwest frontier of slavery. of course it came into the union as part of the missouri compromise in 1820. and as you look at this map, missouri is this area -- if you notice where the missouri is, you see st. louis there. and this shows population density. slavery followed the rivers. and the mississippi and missouri river counties were not only the population were white people were densest but also inenslaved population as well. even though missouri itself was not one of the states in which slavery was most pronounced, i think it was at least 12% of the population were enslaved in 1850, little less than 10% in 1860. still it played a very important

part in the state's economy. the economy and the population are concentrated in the slave holding counties. and also the states leaders, its political leaders were slaver holders especially from the missouri river counties. and a third fact we have to remember is that slaves were the second most valuable form of property, those human beings that were held in bondage. so it was very much essentially to the state's economy. what happened, though in 1854 missouri's civility and its public and political life was disrupted by the kansas-nebraska act. now, remember at this time it's not a frontier state. it's a frontier settlement. but very much in the frontier

counties, it's established as a commercial agriculture, connected to agricultural markets. his father, he was a slave owner and also a commercial hemp father during a crimean war. this is someone part of the nation's commercial economy. in 1864 the state gets thrown up in disarray by opening up kansas to the idea of popular sovereignty, that the settlers of kansas will vote on whether there'll be slavery or not. and as the strongly pro-slavery senator said in 1864, we meaning the pro-slavery forces are

playing for a mighty stake. if we win, weker eslavery to the pacific ocean. we are organizing to meet there, that is the anti-forces based in new england, their organization. we will be compelled to shoot, burn and hang but the thing will soon be over. in other words, at the very out set of the race to settle kansas between the free soilers from the northeast and the missouriens, there's already at least a readiness to use force. and there's many reasons for this. we can spend all day talking about it, but basically there's such a real sent of threat in which if kansas is a free state, then missouri will have free territory on three sides. they're worried about the abolitionists, that they will be

actually stealing saves as they are freeing slaves. and there was the great ideological study over the idea of southern states should pea able to export their slavery system to the west or whether it could be closed off to slavery. so even people who did not want to live around african-americans were fighting for banning slavery. even people who were not slaver owners themselves wanted to spread slavery. it was wrapped up with several different political issues and cultural issues. so what happened is in the state of missouri, the state mobilized to spread slavery into kansas. so i mentioned a few things in 1854 in june there's mass meetings across the northern part of the state. the james family, his father died in the gold rush. and his mother remarried. it was in clay county on the

missouri river in a much denser slave owning part of the state. so this is happening in their territory, in their home county. there were men who joined -- a thousand men joined a county association. they're already beginning to form private militia organizations to go into kansas. by november of 1855, fighting broke out in kansas. the border ruffians inside missouri are raising money and they're organizing. so we have in clay county the pro-slavery aide association is formed and in 1865 a group of border ruffians captures the arsenal in clay county. that gives you an idea of how the fighting in kansas, which becomes known as bleeding kansas, is making people militant. they're actually seizing an arsenal inside missouri. what happens is that this

mobilization divides peoplepin missouri. so this is an underreported, under discussed aspect of the bleeding kansas fight. but in missouri there's a real polarization that's being created. as i mentioned on the screen, on april 9, 1864, a preacher put on trials in his own church. the man who organizes this is a strident pro-slavery idelog who argues that slavery is necessary for every white person to be free. he says we have to have slavery so that we can be free and not engage in menial work. there are boycotts called for

not those opposed to slavery but those who don't think there should be warfare over it in kansas. that preacher was driven out of the county in 1855. also in 1855 a mob destroyed a newspaper that was -- in clay county a mass meeting denounced traitors in our midst. and in july 12, 1855, a pro-slavery convention in lexington actually endorses secession six years before the out break of civil war. now, of course the war arrives in 1861. but by that time missouri now is divided very firmly into camps, pro-union and pro-secession. that doesn't mean it's not equal to being pro and anti-slavery.

but there are many people who are moderately pro-slavery but who don't believe in disunion, that border state unionism is very strong in missouri. and there's also slavery owners if we secede, we're going to have an international boundary on three sides and then we'll really lose your slaves. but the state, again, and very polarized are because of the intall rance of the dissent. the governor, claiborne jackson is very much in favor. he organizes the state guard. there's a clash, the state regard retreats to the

southwest. his attack is defeated. he is killed. price leads the state guard to capture lexington. and then finally general fremont leads a new force, which forces it out of the state. so by the end of 1861 you've an end in missouri. now, by this point everything is fine now. instead, a massive guerilla campaign brakes out. the anti-slavery jayhawkers who are fighting alongside james brown in kansas, but they want revenge now. and they march in and terrorize

and loot and pillage. and those peaceful missouriens rise up to defend themselves. there were in fact raids by troops in kansas into western missouri. this absolutely did take place. however, the problem is you've noticed i've illustrated very loosely where those took place. the problem is that fighting breaks out across the straight especially all along the missouri and mississippi river valleys. now i'm going to add to the -- because i'm focusing on jez ae james, unfortunately, i will add to the impression this is a border war. in fact guerilla warfare takes place across the state. and in fact we see as in this illustration, there were union refugees being driven into major

towns in 1861, tat the kind of missourien against missourien warfare that begins to mark missouri's experience in the civil war begins very early on. ask the secessionists didn't need the impetus of those union forces marching in and terrorizing them. in fact, a report that came out, they owned all the banks and carried out a kind of check kiting scheme to fund the arming and equipping of secessionist state guard regiments. and what happened is naturally the secession movement failed. they did not get reimbursed by the confederate government. and so what happened? unionists took over those banks. and that will come back, believe me, a little later on.

again, i will get to jesse james into minute. but it's important to think about what exactly we're talking about. first of all, as i mentioned, it's constralted in the slave holding areas. these leaders of these groups that form spontaneously seem to be from the slave holding families that had been leaders in their county. these were small groups without essential direction. so we're not talking about mosby who has actually got a direct tie to the confederate chain of kmapd. these groups strongly associate to the confederacy. and yet they're not responding to orders or any centralized strategy. so that means two things. one, they're almost impossible to crush out. if you crush out one squad,

there's another not affected by that, and they're going to keep operating. you kill one guerilla leader andnoters one is going to show up. the second thing is it never really represents a real threat on its own to seizing control geographically of missouri. yet they're never in danger of losing missouri. and that has some important effects, which i'll get to in a second. another example are these tactics that were used. there's a lot of ambushes, a heavy use of close range weapons. the confederates as they accumulated more firearms were

known to ary nearly half a dozen revolvers. and they would just drop it down and pull out another one. and so there was very intense, close-range fighting. they developed over time some have sophisticated tactics. not only ambushes but they began to use decoy ambushes where they would send out someone to lure union forces into a trap. they carried out various other operations, which were designed to trick and to trap union forces. after a clash was then dispersed. very familiar to students of guerilla warfare. and another thing that was very familiar to students of guerilla warfare increasingly as the war went on, they are trying to carry out a kind of political cleansing. and that as is so often the case in guerilla warfare, the target

becomes civilians. so in the case of the confederate guerillas, they are attacking people, burning out designed to trick people into revealing their true allegiances, the word captured union uniforms, go to a farmhouse, ask for food. if they give them food willingly, boom, they will burn up the house and often kill the men on their doorsteps. in fact, a savagery begin to creep in. you're seeing the killing of killers after a clash and you're beginning to see the 1964 mutilation. scalping, severing heads and other parts of the body which we

won't discuss today. the last thing is that the confederate gorillas have a winter refuge in texas. so in wintry the snow falls and win fall off the trees they're easier to track. so they have a refuge. in texas, the conventional confederate authorities are not too happy about these wild men from missouri. of course the union has to invent character insurgency. it's important to note, again for the future of jesse james's career that this is a war which is actual mostly fought on the union side by month missourians. so the profession state government which replaces governor jackson, it creates the jury state malitia, organized like the cavalry of u.s. volunteers, then their supplemented by a range of

cavalry base malitia. it turns out some of the enrolled missouri malitia were basically confederates who were at home and turned out to be quite disloyal. so they created a hardened core which afternoomps up this cycle violence who's strong and fight against the neighbors. they too develop a range of tactics. they had the garza son town of course. they also target enemy camps, they try to get intelligence and try to attack them when they're encamped in the river bottoms where there's heavy brush and timber. they also begin to carry out more sophisticated tactics. as early as 1863 i found

evidence of a local union officer putting two companies, one on either side of a creek bottom and sending two companies up, one on either side of the creek to drive the confederates out of the brush, with a lot of coverage in the creek bottoms they try to drive them towards the anvil waiting at the other end. in one case i'll get into in a minute, the confederates anticipated this and the gorill gorillas houred the force into an ambush. in one case, for example, this goes to both the rising level of atrocity on both sides. missouri state malitia commander went out and was searching r n confedera

confederate rebels in 1962 and he found a camp and attacked them. he wrote, i found three men who denied having any camp or gathering of armed men. after the scrimmage was over i sent two of these men out and had them shot. so, this shows you the level again of intensity. all they did was not report on what he thought they knew and he has them shot and reports it in an official report. this is 1862, it gets worse from there. marshal law was carried out by a network of -- afternoon with local ties and gathering information. the countryside is right for both recessionist and unionist and they're reporting on each other. all men were required to enroll in missouri malitia, if think refused or known to be recession

education they were enrolled as disloyal. they created a list, who are the other suspects on the other side. they had to pay a fine. like the con fed rats were doing they were taxing the other side. as the war goes on, i'll talk about in a minute, not only are they searching homes, and interrogating and registering the disloyal but they also began to carry out torture and mass depopulation. now, there is an aspect again of the gorilla legend and of jesse james's legend which has a message of truth. there was a border wall aspect to the month yan wall in missouri. the leader from missouri knew a -- actually he was quite good at gorilla warfare.

in 1863 he carried out one of the most infamous incidents in the civil war. he led a force of gorillas into kansas and attacked large kansas which was the attack of the abolitionist movement and killed 200 men and boys and burned down the town. missouri has its own cycle of violence and yet they also saw themselves of confederates. august, 1862 is a low point for con fed rits. this is after gettysburg. and also after a wave of mass escapes from slave still being held in slavery in western missouri. on top of that, there are a number of women who were taken prisoners, sisters and female relatives of gorillas and they were concentrated in building in kansas city. there was a building collapse and some were killed.

a lot of the gorillas wanted personal revenge. the national landscape and local personal as speck are both, not futurely exclusive they're both true. jim lange, by the way who's pictured there was a strong jay hawker. he was a particular target. he happened to escape, i think in his underwear through a corn field from lawrence. the union responded with an action that they were considering beforehand. and again we have the brother-in-law of women tc. sherman, general thomas who was commanding western, missouri. so they ordered all civilians not living within one mile of the county to evacuate their farms and leave. this created an air called the

burn district. the troops marched through burning down farms led by a famous paining -- order number 11. this shows you, there's again a strong element of truth but a pop dpan dah as well. it shows again, all the fires that are being lit, in area in which crops and farms are being burned. an attempt to drain sea in the gorillas who are supporting the gorilla warfare. so now we come finally to the james samuel family. the mother having remarried. this is a family that was not poor. they owned seven slaves in 1860 which mean they had more black faces on that farm than white ones. that put them at more than the level of double slave counting. previously they were raising hemp they switched to tobacco.

this is not a story of deprivation or self-staining farmers who are not paying attention to the world. they are sophisticated and well-educated people. frank james whose older than jesse, who was 18 when the war started enlisted in the state guard. he talking at wilson's creek. they did not need to be pushed to the confederate side. they were strongly suggestionist, front rangely pro confederate. so the idea that they had no opinions until they were terrorized is not true. frank took part in a number of actions, including the disruption i mentioned of the operation in klay county. after they had disrupted this operation by lowering some of the men into an am buck, frank

and the group he was with were hiding out in the timber, which you can see in the background of the james samuel farm. the local prongsal enrolled malitia, against the hard core of the local unionist made a raid to try and find that group, led by a man you never heard of named fernando scott. what they did was wen on a farm and asked the stepfather, ruben samuel if he knew where the gorillas were. and as the newspaper reported shortly afterwards the lieutenant james roger said he seemed to be speaking falsely when the judge says he didn't know of a grilly. that secured a rope, placed it around his neck and gave him one good swing. his mentally cleared up and he revealed the location of the rebels.

there they found the whole band including his stepson, frank james. as a result of this that placed ruben and frank in an awkward position. frank james manage to escape, jesse james, legend has it, is believable is whipped when he was working in the fields at the age of about 15, and ruben samuel was arrested. shortly afterwards sa real dah samuel who was pregnant was also arrested. they were both paroled. roo ruben samuel had to report regularly to the marshal. now, the next year frank took part in fact lawrence mass conjecture and went off to texas and came back. they came back with a group

flech tailor. the middle photo shows jesse james in a typical gorilla outfit. that's a gorilla sure, often embroidered by the women in the family. he posted that photo in plat city after the gorillas briefly captured it. also another young man who was part of fletcher taylor's group, his name was archie cle mono. he game jess yes's mentor and closest friend. jesse james at the age of 14 joined the group, what they do is they go house to house murdering old neighbors who are unionist. and in short order they killed eight farmers who are not engaged in combat who were at home working or often called out on the front step or found in

the field. one case they found a unionist farm in the field and they wen to the house to tell the widow that they'd killed him. in short order jesse james and this group takes part in killing eight men he grew up next to. he was apart of critical cleansing in klay county. as a rule of this happening, again there's pursuit by the low-lev local marshal who at the time was a -- leader of that group. so it was again a combination of actual combat between troops and also warfare on the population. after this, jesse jeems, fletcher taylor takes a shotgun to the arm and loses one of his arms. jesse james and fletcher taylor ride to join a man named bloody

vil anderson. bloody vil earned his name. he lost a sister in that prison collapse and one of the most ruthless killers in missouri. he engages in some of the most savage warfare on the savage side. the anderson group was famous or infamous for their mutilation of dead. they deck raided their bridles and saddles with scalps taken. they made a regular practice of murdering any prisoners that fell into their hands. i'm getting a little ahead of myself. in fact he takes part in the -- the james brothers take part in an operation where they pull 22 unarmed soldier returning home on leave from sherman's army in georgia, and they murder them by the side of the railroad tracks. then they ambush a pursuing

union force and manage to wipe it out and they murder every one of the men who tried to surrenderer, over 100 men were murdered. jesse james got credit for killing the men of that force. and there was a massive scalping taking place. this is jesse james's introduction to warfare. prices ranged, 1854 brought -- back to missouri. he had three divisionings about one of which had no guns, that proved to be a handicap. he got bogged down at pilot knob which i believe ewing was commanding and so as a result union had time to rush

conventional troops in. rather than capturing st. louis, he wen west. he mash. s over to west port in kansas city where there's a major battle. interestingly what happens is instead of -- again bauds there's no central direction of those fed rat gorillas, they could have been creating chaos all over the state givening them opportunity to advance and cease points where the union force is split up dealing with all these gorillas. since this group do not have central directions they respond to his invasion but going to his army. what happens is he concentrates most of the confederate gorillas, a lot of the leading groups, with his original army and a lot of the gorilla group is wiped out. there's no moz by here, there's no one who's apart of the confederate chain of command in the gorilla movement.

instead of taking the gorilla war to another level it end up knocking it down a notch. at west port, he's badly defeated and he had to retreat and it knocks the wind out of the confederate gorilla movement. one interesting side effect is that bill henderson is just too ruthless, even with all these ruthless gorillas, he's too much for price. so what he said yeah, what i'd like you to do is go cross the river and go the opposite direction where i'm going. he doesn't do that, but he gets lured into an ambush. he gets decoyed himself into an ambush and he gets killed. this is something jesse james carry with him. so, what happens in the james family is they are targeted for ban ishment.

there's an interesting report that's written up in which the pro vis marshal has been checking intelligence. he knows the james boys were with him and insisted in the murder of the soldier. his report justifying the banishment of the civilian james family. he says i speak not from hearsay but from my own personal knowledge. he hears a neighbor being challenged by a neighbor, aren't you ashamed of what your boys are doing. she rejoiced she was not. that she was proud of them and prayed to god to protect them in their work. she was regarded as one of the worst women in this state. the james samuel family was bin niched. -- banished. they get sent to a much worse

place to nebraska. movi moving along then, again i jumped ahead a bit. bill anderson was killed, you can see his death photo on the right wearing the gorilla shirt. jesse james retreat with archie to texas. they come back in 1865 to find formal war is over and there's a domestic reconstruction in missouri. missouri goes ahead of the movement. the strongest unionist is ones in the malitia union those were the most active become republicans. so they met -- state of emancipation, they're not covered by -- they're not a part of the union confederacy and

lair on when the construction acts are passed it can't mass missouri. they enact what they called the ironclad oath where you have to swear you didn't do one of the 86 things of disloyal in order to voetd, pretty muach is gospe serve op juries, et cetera. they are a sort of soft reunionist movement. you have the stronger unionist become the republicans. they're locally called radicals but shouldn't con feuds them with the radicals in chicago. they have a positive vision for it, positive meaning they have a program by keeping the confederates out of politics. by doing this, there's no black population to rely on as a voting block as you do on mississippi and other states,

they got to keep the con fed rats out. by doing that they create, a, there's no political outlet for the discontent and former confederates. b, they began to alienate the moderate unionist. archie cle monois a group back, i'm running out of time because i want to leave time for question. archie cle met did not surrender. this is someone who is not willing to stop sacrificing and fighting. he never gives up. jesse james himself is wounded in a gunfight. the first time i can confirm that he exchanged fire with a confederate or non-missouri

troops is when he have a gun fight with wisconsin troops in may of 1865 so jesse is badly injured. in 1896 clement comes back. the radicals now of the 14th, they come up with the 14th amendment, the civil rights act, they have increasingly a new vision that's including black people in the union, and this is a vinyl election year in missouri. you have pro republican gangs, you have groups like archie clement whose resending from the confederate side. this year in missouri startings off with a robbery of the klay county savings association in liberty, the county seed of klay

county where jesse james in from. there's two banks in town, they pick the one owned by the former union malitia offices. a week after they had the first republican rally in klay history. this is a target, they're getting easy money and they also big a political party. all through 1866, archie's gang intimidate registered officials. the sheriff's of klay county are riding through saying union men are terrified and leafing the county. unions sent to investigainvest. there's violence and turmoil. at the end of 1866 archie leaves the gorillas, this is fall of

1866 he occupies the town and swings the election to the democrats because the republicans wisely stay at home. what happens is the state governor declares a state of emergency, sends in malitia, archie clements was killed. so, that shows you how strongly they identified with it, even though jesse james may still have been ill from his wound in 1866. by 1869, you can certainly ask question, jesse james has as a choice, all his old gorilla leaders who followed archie cleism they've all been killed and given up by the governor. in 1869, jesse james and his brother frank go to rob the daily county savings association

because they believe the cashier is a malitia leader. jesse james makes a point of shooting down the man across the county. and as they leave the scene he's boasting about the man that killed. we know it's jesse james because he had to steal a farmer's horse and back then people knew their horses and it was a fame horse locally. the farmer whose horse he stole actually had the nerve to sue the james brothers. so this makes jesse james famous, he'd been a teenager in the civil war and now his name becomes famous. he comes to the attention of a nurpds editor who had been a confederate missouri saflry commander, joe shelby, this is

john neumann edwards. he comes back from exile in mexico with a plan to bring the confederates back in politics and take over the democratic party. if they can quince missourians they were a southern state, he creates the myth of the unionist coming from kansas and terrorizing missouri and turning it into missouri men that stood up for their rights, even though he's strongly a confederate. he sees jesse james as an ally. in fact, jesse james begins to write letters to his newspaper, the kansas city times, in which he says, listen i'm incident, it's those damned radicals that are targeted me because i stood up for southern rights because i'm a confederate and he said i'll be damned if they take me alive. i'm anyoinnocent but i'll fightl

the end. that was the message he sends. any allies, he and his brother ally with the younger brothers and former confederates and they carry out robberies and their absolutely criminals. they're violent men, especially jesse james, 16, emersed in violence. he like see people cow wars when a gun is pointed in their face. politics is what distoishs his bandit career. if being a con fed ratd was a great excuse why is he the only one that's doing it. he becomes very important in missouri politics. he and his brother are the only one singled out for rewards by governor of missouri above $300.

when the confederate slate comes back into power they put a reward of $300. now, the climax of this is in 1872, when jesse james carried out a robbery on one of youngers, and top left i have one of those quotes i mentioned, i don't care what the radical party thinks about me i would just assume think that i'm a robber is not. again kind of wink at the audience. in 1872, john edward writes the men carries out this robbery of the kansas city fair are bold robbers and great men. and jesse james writes aler to the press. i believe but i can't prove, i believe he write these letters because later when he moves to tennessee he write the same similar letters. he writes, just let led of pear

of men committed a robbery and the bull hanged him. but grant can still millions and that's all right. it hurts me very much to be called a thief. again, this is the reaction campaign for grant in winning the second term in the presidency. he said grant's party have no respect for anyone. they rob the poor and rich and we rob the rich and give to the poor. he does make that plain but it's entirely in a political context. i will close hoping that horse gridly will defeat brant, then i can make an honest living and would not have to rob and taxes will be so heavy. again it's very funny. it certainly may have been edit edited by edwards but it's very much in a political context. again, a robber wants money, yes. there's other events that takes

place, january 25th, 1865. the pinker tons who had men killed. they launch a raid in the farmhouse, throw a device that ends up blowing up. killing archie, his half brother. this becomes a major event. the people supported the pinkerton's relevant old unionist including a malitia man who lived next door. and he provide a base for the pinkerton's and the brothers end up killing him outside his house. now, 1876, oil field robbery, climax of his life. they go to nor field. i believe that evidence strongly suggs that when one of the youngers was captured the day of the disaster, norfield robbery that he spoke the truth when he said they learned that former

governor, went off to be the reconstruction governor and senator and governor of mississippi. he had been driven out of mississippi by the insir rex of 1875, and we hent to norfield, minnesota. locally he was not famous. the -- james and the younger brothers knew he was there. now, did they intend to have any impact in the election, maybe but certainly harass an atraffic target because he was there. the gang split up in united in norfield so i don't think it was a target of opportunity. gangs stood behind the town gunman firing back and enscourged him -- encouraged him. v interesting man. william stock, you can see the

members killed on the streets. he kind of looks a bit like my father, there's no relation. after '76 the gang is wiped out except for gang brothers. they try to live peacefully, frank can do it, jesse can't. when he returns to a life of crime a few years later, by now the reconstruction had ended. jesse james has no political excuse. he has political views but there's no more fight, he's now just a violent man in it for the money. and so his second banded career lasted a couple of years, it's typical in weren't outlaws. the governor of missouri manages to make a deal a for a new recruit who shoots jesse james in the back of the head. it's a really lucky things for

jesse james because that secured his image, his myth as the american robin hood. he came back and couldn't stay out of the outlaw livism if he had just laid quiet le he would have probably been forgotten and certainly not remembered as the american ro ben hood. but bass he came back they doomed him and change his history in more than memory. they kept him alive for so long. so jesse james's widow wasn't so happy but certainly jesse james's myth, it was a great deal to the fact that bob ford shot him in the back of the head and left him as the man you see in the casket there. thank you very much. again, let's take question.

if not i will go on for a few more minutes. i put more on this on the silver war background. that, first of all, this is a civil war coverage i heard. and second of all, that really is the key to understanding jesse james, no civil war no jesse james, it's really that simple. yes, sir? >> i'm just curios about jesse james in terms of the man, because in a way at least for me rereminds -- he reminds me a little bit of john dillinger. that he was using the cover of civil war, the cover of reconstruction to extend the skills of killing that he had acquired during civil war, he was a psycho path, basically, like bloody bill anderson. do you have an opinion one way

or the other whether he was just -- i mean the way i look at him, he was brutalized and also trained to kill as a confederate shoulder, and then he enjoyed that experience and carried that into the peacetime world. >> yeah, i think that's absolutely true. i talk about one fruitful way of thinking about him which is violatization. the experience that violent criminals have in common. i think that absolutely applies to jesse james. as i said he couldn't live quietly even when there's no politics. however, i don't believe his partisanship and politics are exclusive with having a violent personalities and -- to make an honest living. if it was a good excuse there would have been all kind of

outlaws claiming political motivates. why would the ore outlaws also, you know putting their names out there, writing letters to the press. the fact is it's jesse james in particular who comes to the attention of edwards and works with edwards. so the fact is i think both otrue. in a vinyl personality he might have lived a life of crime under any circumstances but this is what distinguishes him. i look at the politics of the time and see how people were deeply divided it makes a lot of sense he was political. you have to argue against evidence to say he was not rial political and had no real views. when you're in a position of doing that because you think it makes sense then you're on shaky ground. you make a valid point it's just that the other side is also true. >> thank you. >> yes, up here next.

>> i guess in a broader context, i would imagine individuals not so overtly political as jesse james, but in the american west that follow, the gun play, people wearing guns on their hips like you see in these pictures, that there were other civil war veterans who sort of cribbed to that curl of violence. can you speak to that? >> yeah, wild little hickok, one of the most famous gunmen in the west,he'd been a scout in missouri. in fact, his first, the art typical main street walk down of the two guys face each other and walk down main street while everyone runs for cover, that happened in springfield, missouri in 1865 between wild bill hickok and a confederate rebel gorilla name david tuck. although i don't agree with him

and applications of his theory, one of the great scholars of violence in american history, he sees a whole pattern of the violence in which loyalties in the frontier west -- he goes at the western civil war incorporation, all these vjly separate actions are all a part of people trying to incorporate the west into american society and committee and political system. those people tend to be republicans and associated with the unions. if not veterans themselves then the younger brother of union veterans. there were also less confederates, people who had lively hoods on the other side. it's a pig theory and break down details. so missouri specifically and also the civil war, influence is a vinyl in the west in the back way. yes, sir in the back. >> in your research did you come

across the information about harry true man's family that his mother's home was burned and when they were passionated, did that -- >> well i read across this another time. the first time harry truthman, you know in the 20th century maked a trip into kansas, his grandmother says well look for the damn spoon that the jay hawkers stole, it shows how long standing that idea of jesse james as a confederate is not something people in missouri forgot. >> i heard they were part of that banish group. >> they were in jackson, county i believe. that's where he was from personally so they might actually have been uprooted. they were allowed become in. the depopulation didn't last long because it was a radical policy the union decided, okay we got to let them go back.

they came back after a few months. i'll take the next american behind. yes, sir. >> well low -- hello. when you were striking the mass kerr in lawrence it struck me as being gene side dal and intend. is that a way of describing the gorilla war? >> well genocide is tough. that means targeting a specific group for ex termination. we have the term ethic cleansing, and i use the term political cleansing. they're not necessarily trying to murder every single person. for example, white women at least were rarely targeted for murder. like i said when jesse james was on that death squad in 1864 their murdering the men and making sure the widows know. it's bloody but it's not wiping

out a whole population. sound like an apology to try to find distinctions between mass murder but they're not trying to literally murder every single person. even in lawrence they killed men and boys but not the women. so there was rain much often than people realized. there was violence against women, but there was -- you often see resistance to that. you can't call it genocide but certainly there's mass murder with a purpose of changing the civilian landscape. yes, ma'am? >> jesse james was more of a product of his environment, do you feel that way because he was so young when he saw the events that took place? he was very selective for who he killed and went after. they were all unionist and he had seen violence from unionists as a young man and certainly

that continue through his life with hi mom losing his arm, losing a brother and losing family members. his older brother was forgiven and pardonened, he wouldn't and didn't have the same benefit because he was, i think younger and more refined as far as his brother's influence on, you know his education and you know, the way he'd spout out of shakes spear as he was robbing people. >> yes. >> his attitude was different but was wondering if you feel his youthful -- >> or murderous, yeah. this is an interesting point. frank james was in fact someone that loved shakes spa-- shakes spooer. as they walked through the train very unusually robbing

passengers because there was nothing in the express safe, he quoted shakes spooer as they went through -- they knew theater. in their first train robberily in 1873 they wore mass as the kansas city time described as ku klux klan agrregalia. as yan from my work on custer, there was a big federal offense against the clan in kentucky and there was clan trials going on. when they carried out these train robbery they wore the masks perceived as being clan men. now, that's a little diversion. yes, frank was able to get over the vinyl he endured. he was older with more

personality. jesse was younger with a different personality. again, we have to remember par of that idea is coaching. and his mother was strongly political, again these aren't innocence in the woods. she criticized the newspaper editor by name, strongly political, well-informed, taking the southern side at the very outset of the conflict, this is someone who was trained, encouraged and talking to be militant and ruthless. and, you know he was -- he could be charming and funny. at the end of his life he moved back to western missouri and settled in st. joseph as people visited the house where he was killed, and actually went to a railroad station and applied for work saying he had a lot of experience in train work. he was funny. and i love brat pith's -- brad

pitt's performance as him. so yeah, i think jesse james's personality, like i said, he would have been a vinyl man in the civil war no matter what. again, so you have this violent personality and violent training he could never shake. by the way, don't look for big deposits of his loot. armed robbers are not big savers. whenever you need money and put a gun to someone's safe it's kind of a disincentive in savoring for a rainy day. he always wore nice clothes, loved horses and bagamble and wn he ran out of money he wen back to robbing. in the civil war he survives for so long because i think he makes the point of saying, listen, i'm

a political figure. he's got an ally in the press, very influential in the democratic party who he allies with, that makes him a significant figure after missouri realigns and confederate comes back. yes, sir. >> any idea why the began resulting the torture and mutilation? was it something to do with the fact that they were all sort of farmers out on the frontier and used to slaughtering and being among blood or what? >> well, no, people are -- are -- most of the north as well as the south are agriculture ral. people are slaughtering pigs all time. these are not frontier in the sense of like unsettled, un-corp

corporated in the american committee. i think it's due to the nature of gorilla wear fare when you literally have neighbors fighting against neighbors. you got to control the civilian population on both sides, and so, you know when people are raiding, even before they start killing, they're raiding people's houses. they're arresting people and enacting fines. they are robbing -- confederates are robbing people and the union forces are burning people out. it cycles up and it did so quickly. you have a few figures that were leaders and emphasis the ruthlessness and pushing it. again, it's on both sides, a lot of men are fighting anderson,

they are decorating their bridles with men's scalps, and anderson's men's scalps as well. so this is on both sides. as much as i believe slavery is bad, within missouri, both sides are very ruthless. i have to believe it's ultimately because this is a war of the population against a population that's right next door and there's something about that, that erases all of the formal restraints or warfare and missouri. that's my estimation. i'll take one more question. >> a real quick comment. i've had to do research in this area, and somebody brought up truman, turns out truman had two ancestors in the confederate army, one was an uncle and another on his wife side. apparently when his mother came to visit him in the white house

she refused to sleep in the lincoln bedroom. >> yeah, i believe it. and yet who desegregated the u.s. military, it was truman. so, missouri today -- by the way, i should mention that bank they robbed it had existed before the civil war. it was one of the banks that had been owned by men who were leading successionist who put out a check writing scheme and lost control of the banks. banks that's where the money is and also were political targets. these are very shrewd people. when jesse james robbed trains that's because he understood the bank act. creation of green back and turning state bank into national banks, their required by law to keep possessions in new york.

all year long they were shipping cash to new york banks. then when the harvest happened they shipped cash back. there is a seasonal after civil war. there's a seasonal flow of cash. they usually didn't rob passengers, it was only when they were unlucky. when they robbed the north south train at gas hill it was flowing south at the time when there was cash flowing south for the fall harvest. these are not roots who are finding excuse they are people who know their world. if we understand it better we know what they're up to. again, i can make an exaggerated thing and say jesse james was a terrorist. some ways he's a forerunner, i don't want to go all way there, i was revising my manuscript in

my apartment in brooklyn where the world trade center was hit. i was carefulliafty afterwards to push it too far. and yet we have to argue against the evidence when we say there's no politics involved in his desire to be a public figure and impact. it was the lack of political complex that turned him into a ja ner outlaw at the i know of his life. turned him into someone you with write folk songs about and people were living in yankee land. after that book, i thought, wow he wasn't a robin hood. i thought how am i going to write about this railroad -- that's where i found cornelluous vanderbilt.

thank you very much.

>> announcer: at 7:00 p.m. eastern, new jersey residence and activists discussed the 1967 newark developments. >> there were 286 reports of snipers fired. zero snipers were ever found. no evidence of any snipers, no gun shells other than the police unshells. no foot prints no finger prints nothing was found and yet 26 people was killed. one policeman, one firemen and citizens all by the police department that was operating. >> announcer: american history t.v. all weekend and every weekend only on c-span3. snow we return to the annual civil war substitute conference at gettysburg college.