>> i was born in hungary, but i am an american citizen and i have seen what this talk can do. i saw it in berlin. i was a professor at the university. i heard the same words we've heard today, but i was a full then. i thought nazis were crazy and stupid fanatics. sucker" airs next america."eel >> up next, the national archives in washington, d.c. host a portrayal of a speech by former slave and abolitionist leader frederick douglass on the meaning of american independence to slaves. following the performance, a discussion is held with the actor, a park the ranger and author of "the lives

-- frederickatlas douglass." is my pleasure to welcome our guest today. our actor, moderator and the state which university professor from the university of maryland. professor levine has been an influential force in american and african american literature for over 30 years and recently has contributed important work to the burgeoning field of hemispheric and transnational american literary studies. he is the author of the 2016 book "the lives of frederick douglass," and after today's production will be signing copies in the archive store. please welcome professor robert levine.

[applause] thank you forne: the introduction. thank you to tom for organizing this. it is an honor to be here. my guess is that you would rather hear an actor over an academic, so i will be relatively brief with the introduction. about five minutes. as a lot of you know, frederick douglass was born into slavery in 1818, in the eastern shore of maryland. for the first 20 years of his life, he was a slave, moving back and forth between the eastern shore in baltimore. he escaped from slavery in 1838, taking a train from baltimore while dressed as a sailor. he eventually made his way to new bedford, massachusetts. he worked in the shipyards there and as a minister. he stayed relatively quiet about his anti-slavery views, in part because he was still a fugitive slave and was afraid of being

remanded back into slavery. but in 1841, he spoke out at an anti-slavery meeting in nantucket, massachusetts. and the great abolitionist, william lloyd garrison was in attendance. garrison signed him up on the spot as an anti-slavery speaker with a good salary. and douglass, with the help of garrisons anti-slavery organization, moved with his wife and two children to a house , massachusetts. over the next several years, he was known as an electrifying anti-slavery speaker for garrison's anti-slavery society. responding to skepticism that someone as eloquent as douglass could not possibly have been a slave, in 19 -- in 1845, he published his most famous work, the narrative of the life of frederick douglass, an american

slave. this made him so famous in his own time, he had to flee to great britain or otherwise risk being captured as a fugitive slaves. while in england, ireland and scotland, douglass became an international celebrity as an anti-slavery speaker. british supporters bought him out of slavery in 1846, and in 1847, douglass returned to the united states as a free man. he decided to go to rochester, new york instead of massachusetts because his british supporters had given him money so he could buy a printing press and start an anti-slavery newspaper, which he called "the north star." he did not want to compete with garrison's anti-slavery newspaper, "the liberator," and

." rochester would remain his home base for many years until he relocated to washington, d.c. around 1870. garrison, a white man, was angry at douglas for starting a competing anti-slavery newspaper , and in 1850, the two men publicly broke with each other. this is significant to the 1852 speech which is the focus of the program today. garrison argued for nonviolence, or what he called moral persuasion, and believed the constitution was a proslavery document. thus he argued that anti-slavery people should not be involved in the political system. his850, douglass announced -- argued that slavery was an act of violence against black people which, in certain occasions, should be met by violence. he also argued it is important

for free blacks to be involved in the system. accordingly, in 1850, he declared his new beliefs that the constitution was, in spirit, an anti-slavery document. douglass emerged as a radical abolitionist. precipitating his break with garrison and the emergence of this new, more aggressive political stance was congress's passage of the compromise of 1850, which strengthened the fugitive slave law on the books. following the passage of the firm up fugitive slave law, people in the northeast were the northeast, where slavery did not exist, were legally obliged to return fugitive slaves to their masters. from douglass's point of view, the compromise of 1850 with its fugitive slave law nationalized slavery and showed the importance of political resistance.

for douglass, the greatest example of political resistance in american history came from the revolutionary fathers and mothers who chose in 1776 to declare their independence from great britain and to fight for their independence. that teakes us to 1852, the year that douglass gave what many regard as the greatest anti-slavery speech ever delivered in this country, "what to a slave is the fourth of "uly? it was an address delivered in rochester, new york, on july 5, 1852. douglass was invited to give this july 4th speech by the rochester ladies anti-slavery society and he delivered it at a large hall in rochester. between 500 and 600 people, whites and blacks, paid 12 cents each to hear the speech, which back then was significant money. auditory was public

entertainment during the pre-civil war wars and people were willing to pay to hear great speakers. douglass insisted on giving the speech on july 5 and not july 4. until all africans were free, he could not celebrate july 4 on the fourth. for those of either that think this country has a ways to go to achieve all the ideals of the declaration of independence, which, of course, begins with the assertion that all men are created equal, it's therefore significant and in the great frederick douglass tradition, we're having this event on july 3 and not july 4. just before douglass gave his speech, rochester's reverend raymond read the complete text of the declaration of independence. then frederick douglass walked to the stage. ladies and gentlemen, the meaning of july 4th for negro, otherwise known as "what to a ?"ave is the fourth of july

[applause] >> friends and fellow citizens, he who could address this audience without a quailing sensation, has stronger nerves than i have. i do not remember ever to have appeared before anyone more , nor with greater distrust of my ability, than i do this day. the fact of the matter is, the distance between the platform and the slave plantation from which i escaped is considerable and the difficulties in getting from the latter to the former are by no means slight.

that i am here today, to me, is a matter of astonishment as well as of gratitude. with little experience and less learning, i have managed to place my thoughts hastily and him perfectly together -- hastily and in perfectly together, trusting to your and generous indulgence, i shall proceed to lay them before you. this for the purpose of the celebration is the fourth of july. it is the birthday of your national independence. it is to you what the passover was to the emancipated people of god. its carries your mind back to that day into the act of your great deliverance. may the page read not hope that

high lessons of wisdom, of justice and of truth shall yet guide her in her destiny. were america older, the patriots heartight be -- patriots might be sadder. the reformers heavier. america's future might be shrouded in gloom. and the hope of her profits go out in sorrow. there is consolation in the thought that america is young. [chuckles] >> fellow citizens, pardon me and allow me to ask why am i called upon here to speak to you today? what have i, or anyone i represent, to do with your national independence? are the great principles of

political freedom and natural justice embodied in that declaration of independence extended to us? am i to confess the benefits and express devout gratitude resulting from the blessing of independence to us? would to god, for both your sakes and ours. an affirmative answer would truthfully be returned to the question, then would my labor be light and my burden easy and delightful for who would not been his voice to the hullabaloo to the hullabaloo the holly allelujahs when the chains of servitude have been torn from it limb? that is not the state of the case. i say, with a sad sense of disparity between us, i am not included within the pale of your glorious anniversary, your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between

us. the rich inheritance of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness bequeathed by your forefathers is shared by you, not me. the sunlight that brought life and health to you brought strife and death to me. this fourth of july is yours. not ours. you may rejoice. we must mourn. and to drive a man in fetters and the grand illuminated symbols of liberty and call upon him to join you in joyous anthems is in human mockery and sacrilegious irony. do you intend to mock me, fellow citizens, by calling me here to speak to you today about the rivers by babylon? yea, we sat down. for they, who led us away captive, required of us a song. they who wasted us required of us, sing that song of zion. but how should we sing the

lord's song in a strange land? oh, jerusalem, may my right hand begin a cutting, and if i do not remember thee, may my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth. fellow citizens, beyond your joy, il and tumultuous hear the mournful wailing of millions whose change rendered more intolerable by the jubilee shouts that reach them. if i do forget, if i do not remember the bleeding children of sorrow, may my right hand forget her cunning and may my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth. to forget them and to pass

lightly over there wrong and chime in with the popular theme is treason. more scandalous and shocking, it would make me a reproach before god and the world. my subject then, fellow simple story is that some users years ago, the people of this country were matched subjects. -- richard subject. imposee government did upon his colonial children, such burdens and restraints as it is deemed wise, right and proper. to a father who had not chimed in with the popular idea of the day of the infallibility of government began to differ with those burdens and restraints. they went so far in their excitement as to pronounce the

english government as unruly. unjust and oppressive. not to be quietly submitted to. i carefully say that my opinion of those measures fully accord , to facts of your fathers say that america was right and england wrong was exceedingly easy. those who did so recall makers of mischief, agitators, rebels, dangerous men. the fathers were brave men,'s date men, patriots and heroes and for the good they did and -- cause they stood for, i stood for you to honor them in the memory. feeling themselves unjustly treated, they earnestly thought

redress. they petitioned. they did so in a lawyer and respectful manner. russia makes the wide men -- wisemen mad. if they did not grow matter, they grew restive under the streets. that the holy in their colonial capacity. it was at this time that the idea of total separation of the colonies from the crown was on, resolved that these united colonies are and ought to be free and independent states. they are exalted of all allegiance to the british crown and all political connection between the colonies and the state of great britain is and ought to be dissolved. your fathers make good in that revolution. they love their country better than their own private interest,

they speak their lives, their origin and their sacred honor all in the cause of liberty. martin them, their solid men that stands out all the more as compressed with his degenerate times. shall we take a look at this day with the popular characteristic from the slave? -- slave point of view? slave --the american what to the american slave is ?our fourth of july russian ma k it is a data reveals to him more than any other day of the year, the gross conduct in cruelty to which he is the constant victim. to him, your celebration is a sham.

you know what a swine rover is? , i will show you a man road. they were armed with pistol, with and bowie knife, driving a hundred men, women and children. they are supposed to be purchases, food for the constant field. -- cotton field. also the savage wretch who drives them. it does the oldman with lust. the young woman who shoulders are bared to the sun, her tears fall on the brow of the baby in her arm. 13 --o, a young girl, up

heat and sorrow billy consumes -- nearly consumes their strength. but you hear a quick sound like the discharge of a rifle. your ears are polluted with a screen that sings and seems to have 2020 to the center of your soul. the crack you heard was the sound of a wet. the screen you heard was the mother with the baby in her arms. her strength that vaulted out of the chains and the child and the gas in her shoulder tells her to move on. follow the possession -- procession to new orleans. an intense auction there sees

men auctioned. it sees the frame of women exposed under the gaze of the american slave buyer. where can you witness as spectacle more fiendish and shocking? this is part of the united states. it is in this moment where i hear someone in my audience say that it is at this time that you and your fellow abolitionist better impression on the american audience. -- ou argue more and there is nothing to be argued. what point in the anti-slavery creed would you have me argue russia? am i to argue a point that the

slave is a man? the point is considered already, nobody doubts it. slaveholders technology when they punish the slave or disobedience. their 72 crimes in the state of virginia which if committed by a black man will make him punishable by death, only two of those crimes committed by a white man will be light punishment. it shows that the slave is a moral and responsible being. teaching the slave under severe fines and penalties how to write. then i will consent to argue the manhood of the slave, american.

your republican politics as well as your republican religion is regular -- frequently inconsistent. your high civilization, you are christianity, while all the while, the whole political power of the nation conspires to hold in bondage 3 million of his countrymen. you celebrate fugitives from abroad. you salud them, you bless them but of your film -- your own fugitives at home, you hunt, rest, shoot and kill. you make are wrong, the subject of your poets, your archers and your statesman. of the 10,000 wrongs committed against the american slave, you enforce the strictest silence.

it would gain in the enemy of deem him the enemy of the nation. he said that all should one -- love one another but you notoriously hit those who skin is not colored like you're on. you proclaim before the world that we hold these truths to be self-evident, all men are created equal and have been endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. bondage the inhabitant of your country. friends, the existence of ,lavery in this country friends, your republican is him is a sham. humanity a base pretense.

your christianity, alive. -- a lie. it destroys your moral power abroad. you let your politicians at home. ofstops the very foundation religion. history andr name a the byword to a mocking curse. thank you. [applause] professor levine: thank you. professor levine: thank you.

>> thank you, that was riveting. my name is nate johnson. : we are 3.5 miles from the site. this is a really cool opportunity. i can't believe we are sitting right here in the national archives. we are nearly fetal liver where

the declaration of independence is today. we are a few miles from frederick douglas's house. he really brought that to life, i thought that was amazing. i'm going to ask some questions of you gentlemen. i want today for your introduction. i believe you want to say a few things about how this speech was given. >> i wanted to give a comment on the way this was given right now. i think it was the finest performance i have ever heard of the douglas speech. [applause] i want to step back to the 1850's, things were different then. you were pretty quiet and dutiful and polite. havewere a few moments, i read a whole bunch of s'snscripts from douglas

speech and transcripts. backill have laughter and in the 1850's, when he gave speeches, people were worked up. he was one of the great comic performers. i thought it was really terrific. say,ther thing i want to when douglas gave his speeches, this really avoided the abolitionists who spot him, women lined up to meet him. whichis that in print said they want the white women douglassway from and they didn't. has back,rius

charisma. : careful, my wife just bought a shotgun yesterday. [laughter] we have talkede: about this and we may disagree a little bit. people in rochester loved it. about thischapter particular occasion. it was wild applause, someone endorse this speech as an audience and it was unanimous approval or that. then someone said can we have a copy of the speech and douglas sold 700 copies of the speech on the spot by subscription. partt to say that because of the speech that you were performing, the

speech is quite radical. abolitionists got more radical following the passage of compromise of 1850. douglas himself is participating in rallies against the fugitive slave law. in the early 1850's, a year before he gave the speech, he said that you would be doing god's work if you are to kill people in the slave hunt. he said something to the effect of a slave who goes his masters feeling nothing very different from what the american revolutionaries did to their british oppressors. really makes a major shift around the 1850's in willingness to advocate violence. it was measured. it was rhetorical. he is not out killing people.

a lot of the things that are in the some kind of shocking to us is that douglas was saying this. we know he was this iconic figure connected to garrison. this kind of her abolition is going. >> what is your process, it is a really long speech and you memorized portions of it. what was your process for doing that? probably like that was right about where he did it. what was your process for researching? : i know that when frederick douglas presented, early on, he presented like an actor. almost like he was a one-person show, he would become the characters that he would talk about. he was a master mimic or, he

could impersonate. i understood that. there is another performance that i do where i become different characters in his life. i did perform an off-broadway. basically, i approach at the way that an actor approaches it. what we know through writing is -- how frederick douglas potentially sounded. we'll have any recording of it. i always tried to find the man, the person behind the image where the heart lives and where the soul lives and where the passion lives is one of the things that i think about the most. memorizeeasy to frederick douglass's words because we'll talk like that anymore, we don't even write like that anymore. it took a while to get comfortable with his words.

thank you about him as a human being has helped a lot. as far as memorization, my technique is just repetition. over and over and over again. watching the recital is so important because we can read his word. of course, he is never videotaped. to watch you bring that space to life is something so important to do. when you guys listened to this speech, what did you think is the main message of hundred was's speech? what you think you sent to get across? -- what do you think he was trying to get across? what was he trying to say? darius: i think he was doing several things in the speech. one, he is painting the graphic

picture of the hypocrisy. how can you stand for liberty and independence and freedom and yet hold a human being in bondage? where we asrstand slaves should be, think about where your founding fathers were. it is the same situation. if i believe that frederick douglas took the opportunity and advantage of the opportunity to promote the liberation of the everything the founding fathers were standing for as it relates to freedom and independence, i don't think -- how think there was -- i don't think there was any bitterness compassion in his speech. in anted them to see forhic manner the need

these human beings to be free. his goal was to use it as another opportunity to promote the freedom of the flame. i agree with that. i think he is saying that the american revolution is unfinished, it is incomplete as long as there is slavery. that was a very profound message in the 1850's. excerpts from a aboutur speech and until two hours. i can imagine enjoying hearing you talk for two hours. the speech ends with frederick douglas, is very powerful you could add. it is all about hope. he uses the word hope, despite everything i am saying, i have hope. i think part of the power of the

speech. i may sound i am doing a july 4 number. part of the power of speech is that he is tapping into american ideology and saying this has a lot of potential, ideology about equality for one. speech,highly critical he is angry. he is involving the american revolution and saying that the nothing here, there is about it, it might be precisely the ideology we need to bring about the freedom of the science. that is where abraham lincoln was coming from near the end of the civil war. he also refers to the constitution quite a bit and talks about it being a freedom loving document. that is quite a different view than the gastonia credit --

garristonian credit. >> it was to slay that -- say they didn'tand count as representation. against working within the political system instead of working against it or beside it. that, as i said in the introduction is an important point that douglas writes from garrison on. the spirit of the constitution is anti-slavery. he links the constitution to the declaration of independence. it is about equality, it is about human it wally. once he makes that assumption, he can get involved in politics.

he starts to vote and were four political parties. right around this time is the thet where he is saying constitution offers some hope. if you want to be a little bit cynical, you can say that he came to hate garrison. >> that is funny that douglas delivered the speech. you can feel it in the crowd. you can feel the effect today. why is that?

>> i think it is a couple of reasons. >> there is the speech and another speech the year before he died called lessons of the hour, why the negro is lynched. if you read that speech, i perform that speech as well, it will make you think of today, some of the things he is saying. i think there is some and parallels to today and things in the atmosphere, i will say that if it were 15 or 20 years ago, i don't think we would feel the heat of the speech the way that we do today in 2017. because of some of the events that if taken place in the past three or years. i think that throughout the course of time and throughout the decade, there are still these elements in our country, we relate to this fourth of july speech because it resonates with a lot of the things that have

been happening. >> today's washington post has an article about the renewed popularity of james baldwin. i think that baldwin is popular, people are reading him today for similar reasons. that ourodd given -- ident they are both talking about andk commodity -- humanity a lot of baldwin's writings. with what you said about the fourth of july which is the title that douglas used it is also tapping into american ideology. also, arguing that there is a powerful reform side to american ideology. history can change, things can change.

-- otherwise you would not have given the speech. >> i don't know if you mentioned lessons of the hour. i know you've written a lot of that frederick douglas and his autobiographical banners, what other speeches do you think are important that we need to look at the understand frederick douglas's life? ,> the context of the question i think we are in danger of looking at one speech so much like melissa king that be think instantly of his i have a dream speech, what does that speech mean? is everybody still know the meaning of it? i think we do but part of martin luther king's life, there are many more speeches he gives. >> predator does many more speeches. do put up speeches there with the fourth of july? >> i would say that the speech that i believe he was the most popular for back in that time is a speech that had nothing to do

with evolution and that was a self-made man. the idea of the self-made man was different back in that time. -- we think of self-made niners. back then it was reformers. someone who would change as the knowledge group. frederick douglas had this great speech called self-made man and it is all about overcoming what you are given -- what you're given limitations are. limitationsthose and that message to me is extreme with powerful because it is a universal message, it does two things, one, it shows the amazing potential in a human being, regardless of whether he is black or white. what a human being

can do with that potential. even though it was called self-made band back in that time, we should also take at -- that out and about women and that it speaks to women as well. which, 20 of his life, he began to fight for women's life -- rights with the same passion he did against slavery. it is a speech that talks about how to overcome our given limitations and the potential that we have. >> douglas had a fatal heart attack about three hours after he gave the speech at a woman's rights convention. he did do a lot of speaking about women's rights. i was taken with the speech that he gave just a year later it -- with claims of the negro as knowledgeably understood. i thought it was a fascinating scientific study of race and racism. mostly of race.

now,do racial scientists where did they come from, why they sent things about black people as if they are radically different from white people. the really interesting thing about the speech is that he gave a case that was deserved. he was invited to give a speech and i want to learn more about that. i was it that these white students came to know douglas well enough to invite him there to give the speech? two other things, we will quickly mention works that have interested me. they are not speeches. people calledmany the heroic slave. it is a response to all the time's cabin. is a fictional rosacea and oven 1841 slave rebellion on the creole ship. douglas and a lot of people don't know that douglas writes fiction.

, i am veryd interested in his autobiographies which would would -- would make me different from a 19th-century person. 19th-century people love the speeches and some people the art about biz but not many. i loved his last autobiography, the life and times of frederick douglass. hise are chapters on involvement with john brown, chapters with his friendship i thinkaham lincoln and there is a problem in the way that a lot of us understand douglas in terms of that very famous first autobiography. he was also about 28. andas this fascinating life -- this massive

600 85 page autobiography that covered part of his life. i hope my own work will lead others to read it for a greater recovery. during that year, he was so fascinating. we tend to focus on the pre-civil war years. i'm glad you mentioned the anti-lynching speech. >> having researched by douglas, -- >> there will be time for questions. i will that audience members to know when to stand up. i will give a very quick response. >> douglas was an ambassador to .aiti he became friendly with haitian ears. americanis job because governmental people thought he was too sympathetic to haiti. into this person

that runs overseas, the haitian civilian at the 8093 chicago welfare. that is a whole different story about douglas, douglas about the sun america haiti, these interesting political friendships. these were problems with being a politician because he could not hold onto the job. he started a bank, it did not do well but he did start a bank. was wask douglas rockstar, he was the jimi hendrix of his day. day, public speaking was being a rockstar. he was the city fortier of his day. he was the great actor of his day as far as his fame. a lot of times, we don't know that frederick douglas had the

kind of fame. he was the most photographed man that century. that is something to know about frederick douglass. >> we will let the audience members know you have any questions. i'm going to ask one more question here. then we will take some questions. i wanted to mention that when you're talking about the life and times that he wrote that while he was living in the house that is now part of the frederick douglass national historic site. you got to think that he was sitting right inside of this house and writing that book. while he was serving as ambassador to haiti, he was living in that house. it is a really interesting place to visit. i does want to let everyone know that during the following year, 2018, it is the bicentennial of

his birth. ofre is going to be a lot programs at the site and probably internationally, nationwide to recognize s's life anduglas legacy. that is what my last question will get at. why do we recognize the life and times of frederick douglass said i? believe -- frederick douglass today? darius: he represents freedom and diversity. as an african-american men and my wife as an african-american woman but he also represents freedom and knowledge to all the different aspects that we go through in our life, he able to overcome our limitations, some of us are experiencing certain bondage as it may relate to addiction, it may relate to a relationship, a job, it may relate to a certain aspect of how you are living your life.

what i have noticed is when i have performed frederick douglas, my audiences are normally taking this is very diverse. i believe it is like that because the message of liberty and the message of freedom speaks to our spirit. it speaks to our heart. i believe that is the reason why we should continue to remember frederick douglass's legacy. one of the things he said after his speech is that this discussion is not over. the discussion of slavery is not over. the discussion of racism is not over. the discussion of discrimination is not over. because it is not over, we should continue to remember. >> i would agree with everything that you said i don't want to repeat that. in addition to everything you said, the fact that he is a in theriter and i worked 19th century and as someone who

really opens up so many aspects of the 19th century, there are these 19th-century people that think if you know the 19th century, you know the 20th and the 21st century. he is such a compelling figure. i also like to read him in relation to other writers. celebratent to simply douglas all by himself. i actually have an edit book on herman melville. they were in conversation and very interesting ways. i will stop there. >> that he so much. he will not take some questions from the visitors. [applause] >> a comment first and then a question. thank you for organizing this.

as a young man born in columbia who was raised in the washington dc area, that everyone was designed to be a basketball star or a rapper. i studied in chicago. my question is a relationship to lincoln and douglass. he was the first white man invited to the white house. -- black man invited to the white house. what are all of your thoughts on thethat is so involved on tub at a fourth of july, given what he experienced later in life? thank you. >> i have a revisionary chapter on the douglas, lincoln relationship in my new book. i think the story that has been

told is kind of implicit in your question. douglasvery much admire but was very much -- he very much admire lincoln. they had profound interactions during the civil war, those interactions had an impact on most people. douglas in particular was arguing very vociferously for the right for black men to fight in the civil war as part of the northern army. douglas loves lincoln. i will say it out loud. the revisionary part of my reading in the audit by rep writings -- autobiographical mystified,hey overly they met several times, i

estimate is they met for a total of one hour for four years over the civil war. douglas has speeches about lincoln that are highly critical. douglas never voted for lincoln. that is really interesting, even in 1864, he doesn't vote for lincoln. isthinks that lincoln committed to muster the union and doesn't care as much about the slaves. there is fascinating material in douglass's magazine called douglass's monthly in which month after month, he is going after lincoln. if i to colonize blacks into central america. the revision as part of my reading is that this was a more prickly relationship than has been previously been thought. that doesn't mean that by 1855 that these people haven't profoundly influenced each other.

i think that is also there. i figured as one of more fascinating stories about the civil war, this particular relationship. lincoln was keeping an ion douglas. he was reading what he was saying as evidence of that. douglas was following the 1858.n douglas, it was in to make a long argument short, what i argue in my book is that there is a more profound human connection between frederick douglas and john brown and between frederick douglass and lincoln, at least to the time of the second inauguration. i still see profound influences on both sides and lincoln is assassinated, douglas is speaking of great speeches. he gives some great speeches about lincoln and about his love

of lincoln at about lincoln as the great savior of the country. prickly and ultimately, still very moving in this relationship between the two great figures. do we have another question? anyoneve a question to on the panel that can answer. one is about the relationship between douglas and harriet tubman. this came from the eastern shore, they were from different counties. i am not sure about the dates on that. , i havend one is thought more about this over the years as i studied african-american history, my history. when douglass was making his speech is about slavery -- speeches about slavery, what did douglas think about the status of native americans because slaves were not citizens, free blacks were not citizens and

indians were not citizens. we have three categories where there were no citizenship. tubmango back to harriet since harriet tubman is really big right now in dorchester county. did they meet, did they have similar thoughts, any thoughts on that? answer a little about that. i don't know how close his relationship to harriet tubman was, they knew each other, they spent time together. when he lived up in rochester, new york, he was fairly close to the canadian borders. she spends time in canada herself. she is going through rochester and staying at the douglas home. in ouri have seen collection, we have a collection of thousands of objects, there

is at least one biography on harriet tubman. douglasfrederick collected other people's narratives and that included harriet tubman. >> i don't remember them commenting on her retirement in his autobiographies, maybe that his wife i haven't reversed that relationship. douglas is always someone who argued for citizenship for people who were disenfranchised. i think, very powerfully, not to deflect too far away from your tostion, in the 1870's 1890's, he was arguing for citizenship rights for asian americans. that put him in the real minority of races during that time. i know less about his interest and more about -- it was more

about immigrants, he was championing for citizenship and voting rights for women. accepted the constitutional amendments that initially gave and white women the right to vote. that lead to friction for a douglas and between women's rights advocates. darius: not just with the native americans but we know for sure that the mexicans as well as the asians, women and then he became very famous in island because of the oppression that they were having there. they looked through his writings for inspiration and hope and what he was seeing overseas that. for speakingamous

to what was happening to them. his speeches and ideas did inspire with people outside of african-americans. he did have a relationship with harriet tubman and there were or some kind of correspondence between the two of them. ofelieve she sent him a gift one of her walking sticks and he also had probably even more of an intimate friendship with sojourner truth. >> good question. wondering, slaverysetts outlawed almost immediately after independence and similarly, other states felt it was incompatible with the declaration of independence. washington, jefferson were aware supportingy --

slavery would be hypocritical. it was more than civil hypocrisy. and the lifestyle by thent to maintain -- speaking, it was seemed that the south convinced itself totally that they were justified or were they still aware to some degree that it was a product -- there was hypocrisy there? >> in the context of the circumstances changed by the time that douglass gives his speech, the founding fathers did see that maybe if slavery did not extend, it would dive but they could not proceed the cotton gin. the could not foresee abolition of the international

slave trade that slave traders would bring a lot more into the country. they can foresee all of that that really strengthened the nation's images slavery. they can foresee that but we do and them by douglass's -- they are referring to it as a positive. that it was good, socially, economically and politically for the country. >> by the 1830's, slavery was not done away in the south. i recently held a visiting fellowship at a southern university where we are all saying -- you know what, why did they fight the civil war? i just don't see that. slavery didn't just and in the northeast, in any kind of natural way, there is no massachusettst in where slavery is over. it is like a series of court

cases through the late 18th century, slavery was legal in new york until 1827 which is kind of remarkable. thejersey had slaves up to 1840's. his concerns about nationalizing slavery through the future slave law, you can also look to the north and even in places where there wasn't slavery like philadelphia. extraordinary segregation and racial strife to proslaveryhere people can say to black people -- runaway to philadelphia at your peril. you're not going to meet a very nice fate. by the 18th and then 1820's, that is over. interestingly, washington freeze his slaves on his death.

that is this great symbolic action but it did not do much in virginia beyond any kind of symbolic action. >> the issue was that it was really about the money. .t is about the money think about it, if i may slave owner and each of you are on my plantation and everything that you are doing is free labor, imagine what that does for me and imagine what it can do for an economy. even with lincoln, ligands are you into frederick was we can look toward ending slavery but it'll take at least 100 years. lincoln's idea of ending it was we will end it but it will have to be set up to 100 years later. nobody could connect to the idea of it just abruptly ending. aboutof times, we forgot

the economic part of the reason why slavery existed. as slavery still exists today. with children. one of the with things that frederick douglass would have stood up for, the injustice in the criminal system. the injustice in the prison system. frederick douglass would have been just as controversial today as he was yesterday as it relates to some things we are experiencing. there is slave labor going on but under my nose right now. the reason why it is here is because of the money that it brings. why that i reason believe it was hard for them to let go in that time. it is part of us -- hard for us to let go of it today.

we don't know much about it and we look the other way. here is how the public was looking away and did not know much about it back in that time. it took people like frederick brown and many others to bring to public attention of what was actually going on. you go to other countries and there is cattle slavery in other countries. >> that concludes the program. thank you very much to everybody. [applause] >> you have a facebook question from peter, he says are there any historical resources on the

people who died in detroit? >> there is one in particular, the detroit free press did a piece. >> you can be featured during our next life program. -- live program. >> they have been giving tors of the gettysburg battlefield for many years. they recently co-authored a field guide to gettysburg. american history tv joined them to learn the story of the three-day battle through a selection of their favorite monuments. >> we are here at the north carolina state memorial. virginia will be the first former confederacy to build a monument here. in 1927, the north carolina division of the united daughters of the confederacy decided north carolina also needed the monument.

they will organize the political forces and their influence and there with the state legislature. this monument is very significant here. what the case is north carolina soldiers preparing to conduct their part in the third -- three days attack here are gettysburg. there are more men here then pickens. if you come up at the monument of the five figures, berryhill road poses. very lively. you have the phone later down on his knees. he knows he will not make it across the field. the big man just to the front, he studied his face, one word comes to mind and that word is determination. he will grow across the desk go across the field. just over his right shoulder is the younger soldier.

he is horrified. he just doesn't think it is a good idea. there is an older men here. he is encouraging the younger man. just keep moving forward. the flag is pressing forward. this is over the advancing north carolina soldiers. >> it was important to north carolinians to make a statement is bold and stunning as this one. north carolinians never thought that he was treated fairly, especially during the history of gettysburg. richmond,spapers of there was article after article about pickens and virginia. whenever they had to explain why this failed, the usual answer was the truth that was sent to the poor cams was that they did not do their jobs.

the north carolinians have participated in pickens charges as part of the attacking force. there was this again and again after the southern newspapers after the war. they would write their own histories about it. they would eventually come up with a state motto after the war. they show the north carolina's were in front of the thing. day doarolinians to this not generally call the attack of july 3 pickens charge. they don't to give it any more due than he has artie got in. ist they prefer to call it --

>> the sculptor for this particular monument is a fellow named gotten. there is this massive structure out there in the decoders called mount rushmore. he is also famous for the bust of president lincoln in the u.s. capitol building. what he will do is he will use actual photographs of models ands as the that is that added sense of realism, there's a lot of fluidity in movement here. it is just a very striking monument.

>> c-span, where history unfolds daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable-television companies. it is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. >> american history tv is on museum doors,ing archival films and programs on the presidency. here is a clip from a recent program. >> the procession as entertainers. can anybody identify who is in the photo beside president truman? >> this is president sherman