er slave frederick douglass on the meaning of american independence to slaves. following the performance, a discussion is held within actor, a national park ranger, and university of maryland professor, author of "the lives of frederick douglass." this is about 70 minutes. >> it is a pleasure to welcome our guest today who will perform for us shortly. he will moderate our discussion and last but not least, robert s levine from the university of maryland, college park. professor levine has been an source for more than 30 years.

he is the author of the 2016 book "the lives of frederick douglass," halloween today's presentation will be signing copies of the book. please welcome professor robert levine. [applause] >> thank you for the introduction tom, and my thanks to tom for organizing the event. it is a real honor to be here. my guess is you would rather hear an actor over an academic, so i will be relatively brief, five minutes. as a lot of you know, frederick born into slavery in 1818 on the eastern shore of maryland. for the first 20 years of his life, he was a slave moving back and forth between the eastern shore and baltimore. he escaped from slavery in 1838 taking a train him baltimore while dressed as a sailor and eventually made his way to new

bedford, massachusetts. he worked in the shipyards there and as a minister staying relatively quiet about his anti-slavery views. in part because he was a fugitive slave and was afraid of being remanded back into slavery, but in 1841 he spoke out against slavery at in anti-slavery meeting in nantucket, massachusetts, and william lloyd garrison was in attendance. garrison signed him up on the spot as an anti-slavery speaker with a good salary. and douglass with the help of garrison moved his family to a home in massachusetts. over the next several years, he emerged as an electrifying speaker for garrison's massachusetts anti-slavery society. responding to skepticism that someone as eloquent as douglass

couldn't possibly have been a slave, douglass published what remains his most famous work, his narrative of the life for frederick douglass, an american slave. made him sography famous in his own time that he had to flee to great britain or otherwise risk eating captured as a fugitive slave. while in england, ireland, and scotland up to 1840 seven he became an international celebrity as an anti-slavery speaker. british supporters bought him out of slavery in 1846 and in 1847, now a free man, returned to the united states. he decided to go to rochester, new york instead of active massachusetts because his supporters had given him money to buy a printing press and start and anti-slavery newspaper which he called "the north

star." he didn't want to compete with garrison's newspaper. rochester would remain douglas'' home base for many years until he moved to do washington, d.c. in 1870. sarrison was angry at douglas for starting up a competing newspaper and the two men publicly wrote with each other. this is significant to the speech that is the focus of the program today. arison argued for nonviolence or what he called moral suasion. he believed the constitution was document.ry he felt that anti-slavery people should not be part of the system.

he argued that slavery was an act of violence against lack people which on certain occasions should be met by violence. he also argued that it is important for free blacks to become involved in the political system. accordingly, in 1850, he declared his new leaf that the constitution was in spirit an anti-slavery document. radical emerged as a abolitionist. break with garrison in the emergence of this aggressive passage of congress' the compromise of 1850, which strengthened the fugitive slave laws already on the books. --ple in the northeast were where slavery didn't exist were legally obliged to return fugitive slaves to their

masters. viewdouglass' to nationalized slavery and showed the importance of political resistance. the greatest example of political resistance in american history came from the revolutionary fathers and mothers who chose in 1776 to declare their independence from great britain and to fight for their independence. that takes us to 1852, the year that douglass gave what many regard as the greatest anti-slavery speech to ever be delivered in this country, the fourth of july, an address delivered in rochester, new york on july 5 1852. give thevited to speech by the rochester ladies anti-slavery society and he delivered it at a large hall in rochester. between 500 and 600 people am a

white and black, paid $.15 to hear the speech. it was public entertainment civil ware pre- years and people would pay to hear great speakers. he was ordered to give the speech he felt he could not celebrate july 4 on the fourth. for those who think the country , which beginsgo the assertion that all men are created equal, it is therefore significant and in the great douglas tradition we are having not event on july 3 and july 4. just as he gave his july 5 speech. the reverend red the complete

text of the declaration of independence. then frederick douglass walked to the stage. the meeting of july 4 for the negro, is the fourth of july. >> friends and fellow citizens, he could address this audience without a sensation -- without acquitting sensation has stronger nerves than i have. i don't remember having appeared before anyone more -- with greater distrust of my ability and i do this day. the fact of the matter is the distance between the platform

and the slave plantation from which i have come. and the difficulties in getting from the latter to the former are by no means light. it is a matter of astonishment as well as a gratitude. managed to place my thoughts together. and i shall proceed to lay them before you. this, for the purpose of the celebration is the fourth of -- is the fourth of july.

it is to you with the passover was to the emancipated people of god and to the act of your great deliverance. many patriots on hope that high lessons of wisdom and justice and truth shall yet guide her in her destiny. america's future may be shrouded in gloom. and hopes of profit go out in sorrow. there is confirmation in the thought that america is young. citizens, part of me and why am i callk upon here to speak to you today?

what have i or anyone i represent have to do with your national independence? are the great senses of medical freedom in the declaration of independence extended to us? resulting from the blessing of independence to us. for both your sake and hours and withan affirmative answer my labor of the light and burden easy. when the chains of servitude had been torn from its limb.

i say with a sad sense of disparity between us i am not your gloriousn anniversary, your independence only revealing the immeasurable instance between us. the rich inheritance of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. the semi that brought light and help to you brought strength -- brought strength and death to me. this fourth of july is yours. meet that you may rejoice, we must mourn you and call upon him to join you and joyous anthems is in human marconi -- mockery. call me here to speak to you today. zion.ember

for they who let us away captive required of us a song. us sing thatwasted song of zion. how should we sing the lord's if i did strange land? not remember the, my mate -- may my tongue cleave to the roof of my how of my mouth. beyond your national and tumultuous joy, i heard the wheeling of millions whose pain, davis yesterday with a rendered intolerable by the jubilee that shall reach them. if i do forget, if i do not

, may my right hand forgive her cunning. pass lately over there wrong and chime in with the is treason, most scandalous and shocking. my subject then, fellow citizens is the american slavery. 76 years ago the people of this country where british subjects. your father deemed england as the fatherland, the home government that imposed on its colonial children burden and restraint as it deemed right and proper. father, who have not --

of the infallibility of governments. their's --o far in in their excitement to pronounce the english government as unruly, unjust and oppressive area and not to be quietly submitted to, and i scarcely need to say that my opinion of were off the back of your fathers. to say america right england run is exceedingly easy. those who did so for makers of mistress. did so where makers of mischief. agitators, rebels, dangerous men. but your fathers were brave men, statesman, patriots and heroes.

and for the good they did and the cause they stood for, i will stand with you to honor them in their memory, feeling themselves unjustly treated, they saw a redress. they petitioned and they remonstrated, loyal and respect full matter-- but oppression makes a wise man mad. your fathers were wise men, and if they did not grow mad, they grew restive under this treatment. they felt themselves the victims of grievous wrongs, wholly incurable and their colonial capacity. it was just as this time that the idea of total separation of the colonies from the crown was born. these united colonies ought to be free and independent states that they are absolved from all allegiance to the british crown and that all political connection between the colonies and the state of great britain is and are to ought to be

dissolved. friends. your fathers made good that revolution. they loved their country better than they loved their own private interests. they states their lives, their fotrtunes and their sacred honor -- they seized upon the principle and set a glorious example. their defense marks them -- stands out all the more as we -- go through these degenerate time. shall we take a look at this day with his popular characteristics from the slave's point of view? what to the american slave is your fourth of july? i answer. it is a data reveals more than any other day of the year, the

cruelty to which he is a constant victim. to him, your celebration is a sham. you know a swine drover? i'll show you a man drover. they inhabit all of our southern states and they crowd the highways of the nation in droves of human stock. armed with pistol whips and bowie knife, driving 100 men, women and children, these souls are to be sold singly or in -- they are food for the cotton field and the deadly sugar mills. mark the sad procession as they move along and the sadness -- drives them. see the old men. see the young womianan whose shoulders are bear to the scorching sun. her tears fall on the brow of the babe in her arms.

see, too, the young girl of 13 weeping and she thinks of her mother from whom she's been torn . mark the sad procession. heat and sorrow nearly consumes this streenngth. suddenly you hear a quick zap, like the discharge of arrival. chains rattle. your years are polluted with a string that seems to have -- bo made its way into the center of your soul. the crack you heard was the sound of a whip. the screen you heard was a mother with a babe in her arms her strength has faltered under

the weight of the chains and the child and -- the soldier tells her to move on. follow the for session to new orleans. attend an auction there. see men examines like horses. see the strains of women rudely and brutally exposed to the shocking gaze of american slave buyserers. tell me where under the sun can you witness a spectacle morphine does and shocking and yet this is but it once of the american slave system that exists in the ruling part of the united states. but it is just in this moment when i hear someone in my audience say, it is just at that time that you and your fellow abolitionsnists fails to make a public impression. if you would argue more and announce less, if you persuade more -- your callsuse might be much more likely to succeed. but i submit were all this plain, there is nothing to be

argued. what point in the anti-slifer decreed would you have me argue? -- in the anti-slavery creed would you have me argue? the point is conceded already. nobody doubts it. slaveholders themselves acknowledge it in the enactment of the loss of their government. when they punish a slave for disobedience. there are 72 crimes in the state of virginia which if committed by a black man may subject him to the punishment of death while only two of those same crimes if submitted by a white man may subject him to like punishment. the knowledge that that the slave is a moral and intellectual and responsible being. southern statutes are filled with enactment teaching the slaves, penalties how to read and write, when you can point to any such laws as it relates to the beast of the field, then i will consent to argue that the

manhood -- is a slave. americans, your republican politics is was well as your republican religion is flagrantly inconsistent. you boast of your love for liberty. your high civilization, your pure christianity, although why the whole political power of the nation conspires to hold in bondage 3 million of its countrymen. you celebrate fugitives from abroad, you honor them with banquets, you salute them and you bless them, but of your own fugitives at home, you -- you h unt, arrest, shoot and kill. you mourn the hungry. the subject of your poetry, your orators and your statesmen but

of the 10,000 wrongs committed against the american slave, you enforce the strictest silence and would deem him an enemy of the nation that would make their subjects public - you say that all men are created of one blood and all men should love one another, yet you hate those whose skin is not colored like your own. you proclaim before the world, we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal and have been endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, and that of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. yet, you hold in bondage a part of the inhabitants of your country. friends, the existence of slavery in this country brands

your republicanism a sham. your humanity a base pretense. your christianity a lie. it destroys your moral power abroad. it erupts your -- corrupts your politicians at home. it saps the very foundation of religion. it make sure name a hissing and a by-word to a mocking earth. thank you. [appluse]

prof. levine: thank you, that was riveting as always. thank you so much for that. i'm nate johnson, the supervisory park ranger at the frederick douglass historic site in washington, d.c. about 3 1/2 miles from the site. you have an opportunity to get over there if you would like. and i just got a say this is a

really cool opportunity, because i cannot believe we are staying in the national archives. we are mere feet away from where the declaration of independence is's hou -- and a a few miles from frederick douglass's house. i will ask some questions of you gentlemen. i want to thank you for your introduction. i believe you wanted to say something about how the speech was given when frederick douglass said it in 1852. prof. levine: i wanted to comment on the weight was given right now. that was the finest performance i have ever heard of the douglass speech. want to kind of step -- [applause] prof. levine: i want to step back to the 1850's because things were different then.

you were pretty quiet and beautiful and polite. but there were a few moments, maybe one moment where people laughed. i've read a whole bunch of transcript of douglass's speeches and newspaper and you will have a few sentences, then you have parentheses -- laughter. and parentheses -- stuff like that. so, back in the 1850's, when douglass was giving speeches, people were kind of worked out. not just -- he was not just as a passionate person speaking out against slavery but one of with a great comic performers. the other thing i wanted to say and not to embarrass you at all, when douglass gave his speeches and this annoyed the abolitionists, women lined up to meet him. there is stuff in print in which, they say, particular they want the white women to stay away and they didn't.

you have a certain charisma that was douglass-like, and i will leave it at that. >> be careful, my wife is in the audience. brought a shotgun here today. when my wife tends to like to use it real quick. that's a joke. prof. levine: and this particular speech went douglass gave it in 1852, people in rochester loves it. that's my understanding, and there is a chapter or section in a biography about this particular occasion in which he says according to newspapers that people at the end of the speech, there was wild applause. someone said let's endorse the speech as an audience and there was unanimous approval for that. then someone had said could have a copy of the speech? and douglass sold 700 copies of the speech on the spot by

subscription. i want to say that, because the speech, the things that you were performing and stating, the speech was quite radical. and around 1850, abolitionists got more radical following the passage of the compromise of 1850. and douglass himself was participating in rallies against the fugitive slave law. and in the early 1850's, a year before he gave the speech, he is saying that you would be doing god'ws work if you were to kill a fugitive slave lender. in his autobiography "my bondage and my freedom," he said something to the effect of "any salvelave who kills his master is doing nothing very different than what the american revolutionaries did to his british oppressors." it makes a major shift around 1850 in terms of his willingness to advocate

violence, but it was measure. i mean, it was rhetorical. he is not about killing people. but a lot of things that are in the speech that sound kind of shocking to us, douglass was saying -- we know douglass is an iconic figure connected to william lloyd garrison. was kind of where abolition was going post compromise of 1850. >> we talked about your performance. what is your process for, first of all, it is a really long speech. you memorized portions of it. what is your process for doing that, and how you choose to present? in my readings of his mimic reuse of that, that was right about where he did it. what is your whole process for research? >> that is a very good question. one i nknow that when frederick douglass presented early on, he presented like an actor p like a

one-person show. he would become the character he would talk about, because he was a master mimicker. i understood that. and there is another performance that i do where i do become different characters in his life that i did perform off-broadway. but, basically, i approach it the way an actor approaches it. what we know through writing how frederick douglass potentially sounded. but we do not have any recording of it. so, i always like to go for trying to find the man, the human being, the person behind the image of where the heart lives and where the soul lives and where the passion lives. it is not easy memorizing frederick douglass's worth because we do not talk like that or write like that any more. it took a while to get

comfortable with his words but trying to get of the heart at it, thinking about him as a human being has helped out a lot, and as far as memorization, my technique is just repetition. over and over and over again. prof. levine: i think watching the recitals in so important because we can read frederick douglass's words. he was never videotaped. we do not have any audio of him. to watch you bring that speech to life is something so important to do. when you guys, listen to the speech, when you have done your own research, what you think is the main message of frederick douglass's speech? >> in general, just the speech a particular? >> the fourth of july speech that frederick douglass

delivers. since you talked about the difference in language and let we do not speak -- in modern terms, what is he trying to say? >> i think he's really, he is doing several things in the speech. one is he's painting the graphic picture of.hypocrisy how. how can you stand for liberty and independence and freedom and yet hold human beings in bondage and then to understand where we as slaves should be, think about where your founding fathers were. it is the same situation. if i believe that frederick douglass took the opportunity and advantage of the opportunity to promote the liberation of the slaves based on everything that the founding fathers were standing for as it relates to freedom and independence, so, i don't think he was -- i think there was no bitterness or maliciousness in his speaking.

i think he was very compassionate, and had a tremendous amount of heart for the people he was speaking to but he wanted them to see in a graphic manner the need for these human beings to be free. so, believe his goal was to promote the freedom of the slave. prof. levine: he is saying that the american revolution incomplete as long as there is slavery. and that was a very profound message in the 1850's. there is an excerpt from a two-hour speech, according to people who were there. i could imagine enjoying hearing you talk for two hours. the speech ends with frederick douglass, it is very powerful

moment that you could add in other variants -- it is all about hope. he uses the word hope. despite everything i'm saying, i have hope. so, part of the power of the speech -- i might sound like, i'm not doing a july 4 kind of number -- part of the power of speaking as he is tapping into american ideology and saying this has a lot of potential. ideology about equality for one. so, it is a highly critical speech. he's angry because of the fugitive slave law. he is invoking the american revolution, and he is saying the ideology here might not be so bad. it might actually be precisely the idr ideology we need to bring about the freedom of the slaves which is where abraham lincoln was coming from near the end of the civil war. >> in the speech he refers to the constitution quite a bit. he talks about being a freedom loving document. and that is quite a different view than the guerra --

garrisonians. >> garrison believe that the constitution was post-labor because it had the -- the constitution was very proslavery because it had the 3/5 -- slaves were 3/5 of a person. front garrison's point of view, the constitution was promoting the slave power. and thus he was arguing against working within the political system. kind of working against it, or beside it. and that, as i said in the introduction, is an important kind of point that douglass breaks from garrison on. and i think it has to do with what it was talking about, this idea of hope. there is the 3/5 clause but the spirit of the constitution is anti-slavery because he links

the constitution to the declaration of independence. so it is about human equality. once he makes that assumption, he can get involved with politics. and he starts to vote and start in to work for political parties. so, right around this time actually is the point where he is saying, the constitution offers some hope. >> the exchange of ideas -- politics and the use of violence. prof. levine: he has a personal kind of dispute with garrison. if you want to be cynical, you can say he came to hate garrison. garrison says this about the constitution, and therefore i will believe -- the opposite of garrison. >> i think still today, that is the sort of speech that makes us think and emotionally it makes it feel. it is a very powerful speech. why do you think it all remains

so relevant today? 115 years since frederick douglass delivered this speech. you can feel it in the crowd. why is that? >> i think for a couple of reasons. this speech, and if you do not mind my mentioning, there is another speech year before he died called lessons of the hour, why the negro is linched? and i do perform that speech, also. it will make you think of today. some of the things that he is saying. and i think there are so many parallels to today and so many things in the atmosphere. i will say that if it were 15-20 years ago, i do not think we would feel the heat of the speech the way that we do today in 2017, because of some of the events that have taken place in the last 3-4 years. and so, i think that throughout the course of time, and throughout the decades, because there is still these elements in our country, we relate to this

fourth of july speech because it resonates with a lot of the things that have been happening. the past few decades. prof. levine: today's "washington post" had an article about the renewed popularity of james baldwin. and i think that baldwin's popular and people are reading him for similar reasons which is odd given that our president loves frederick douglass. [laughter] but there is talking about black humanity. both his speech and a lot of baldwin's writings. and i think with what -- the

title that douglass used for it, as i've already said, it is tapping into american ideology. and arguing that there is a powerful reform side to american ideology. and that history can change. things can change. why els would he have given the speech? >> you mentioned lessons of the hour. and you have written about frederick douglass and his i've autobiographical writings. what other stations that you think are important to understand frederick douglass's life? the context of the question, the site we discuss often, we are in danger sometimes when we look at one speech so much of that

person, like martin luther king, we think instantly of his "i have a dream" speech. what is that speech mean? does everyone still know the meaning of it? martin luther king's wife, there are many more speeches. what other speeches and writings you put up there with fourth of july? >> i would say this speech i believe that was the most popular for in the time was a speech that had nothing to do with abolition and and that was a self-made man. and the idea of the self-made man was different than today. when we think self-made men today we think of self-made millionaires. but back during that time, the self-made man was a reformer, someone that would change as their knowledge grew. and then they would use that knowledge to reform. and frederick douglass had a great speech called "self-made man." at the end of the day, it is all about overcoming what you are given limitations are. as he did. he was born into chattel slavery, but he overcame those limitations. and that message, to me, is extremely powerful because it is a universal message. it does two things.

one, it shows the amazing potentialin in a human being, regardless of whether he is black or white. but then it also shows the, what a human being can do with that potential. and, even though it was called "self-made man," back during that time, we should also take that out and think about women, that it speaks women, too, which toward the end of his life he began to fight for women's rights with the same passion as he did against slavery. so, it is a speech that teaches us how to overcome or talk about how to overcome are given limitations and the potential that we have within us. prof. levine: douglass had a fatal heart attack three hours after he gave a speech at a women's rights convention. he did do a lot of speaking about women's rights. i, in taking with a speech he gave just a year later, the claims of the negro pathologically understood. it is kind of a fascinating,

scientific study of race and racism but mostly of race. what do racial scientists know? why are they saying things about black people as though they are radically different from what people? he gave it at case western reserve. he was invited to give the phi beta kappa speech. i want to learn more about that. how about it -- how as it these white students came to know douglass well enough to invite him to give the speech? two other things i would quickly mention in terms of -- were sort of interesting to me and they were not speeches. in 1853, douglass published a novella called "the heroic slave," which some that say was

in response to "uncle tom's cabin." it is an sectionalization of a slave rebellion on a ship. it is a douglass that not a lot of people know. as mentioned, i am very interested in douglass's autobiography which would make me different from a 19th-century person because 19th-century people basically loved the speeches and some people knew the autobiography but not many. i love his last autobiography, "the life and times of frederick douglass," where there are chapters on his involvement with john brown, chapters with, on his friendship with abraham lincoln, and i think that there is a problem in the way that a lot of us understand douglass in terms of that very famous first autobiography " the narrative of the slave frederick douglass," published in 183545, when he is all of 28.

he lived to 1895. see has this fascinating life and he has this massive, venable 650 page autobiography that covers some of the aspects of his life. and so, i hope that my own work on that autobiography will lead others to read it and for a greater recovery. year by year, he is so fascinating and we tend to focus on the pre-civil war wars. i'm land you mentioned the anti-lynching speech. >> some of them lesser-known aspects of frederick douglass's life that interest you the most. having research frederick douglass and pretrade frederick douglass >> there will be time for questions. i will let the audience members to know when to stand up and go towards the microphone. prof. levine: i will give a cleric response. douglass was -- a quick

response. douglass was an ambassador to haiti in the late 1880's and he will became friendly with haitian leaders. he lost his job because american governmental people thought he was too sympathetic to haiti. and hait tapped him to run the haitian pavilion at the chicago world's. that is a whole different story about douglass. about hait, his interesting political friendships. and the problems of actually being a politician because he could not hold on to the job. >> he started a bank. it didn't do well, but he did start a bank. he really frederick douglass was a rock star. he was like the jimi hendrix of his day. today, everybody wants to be a basketball star or rap star. well, public speaking was that

he was the sydney 48, the great actor, as far as his fame. so, a lot of times we do not know that frederick douglass had that kind of power -- and he was the most photographed man of that century, too. that is something to know about frederick douglass. >> this time i'm going to let audience members know if you have any questions to please, you can begin to line up at the microphones. i'm going to ask one more question, and then we will take some questions from the audience. i want to mention when you are talking about frederick douglass's life and times, that he wrote that while he was living in the house that is now part of the frederick douglass national historic site. i got to sit on frederick douglass's porch and think he was just sitting right in sound that's-- right inside that

house. all he was serving as ambassador to haiti, he was inside this house. it was an interesting place to visit. i want to let everyone know that during 2018 year is bicentennial frederick douglass's birth. there are going to be a lot of programs at the site and probably internationally, nationwide, to recognize frederick douglass's life and legacy. that is what my last question is going to get it is that why do you think it is important that we recognize the life and legacy of frederick douglass today? >> i believe it is important, one of the reasons why am mentioned earlier is he represents freedom and liberty universally. he represents it for me as an african-american man and my wife is an african-american woman. but he also represents freedom as a relates to all the different aspects that we go through in our lives, being able to overcome our limitations. some of us are experiencing

certain bondage as it may relate to addiction, it may relate to a relationship, relate to a job, it may relate to a certain aspect of how you are living in life. and what i have noticed is when i perform frederick douglass my audiences are normally like this, there he diverse. i believe it is like that because the message of liberty and the message of freedom speaks to our spirits, speaks to our heart. i believe that is the reason why we should continue to remember frederick douglass's legacy. and also to remember that, you know, one of the things we said after one of the speeches is this discussion is not over. the discussion of slavery is not over. the discussion of racism is not over. the discussion of discrimination is not over. and so, because it is not over, we should continue to remember.

prof. levine: i would agree with everything that you said. i do not want to repeat that. i am a literary historian, in addition to everything you said, i value the fact he is a great writer. and i work in the 19th century, and i he is someone who really opens up solely aspects of the 19th century. and one of the 19th century people who think if you know the 19th century, you know the 20th and 21st centuries. for all these reasons, i think he's such a compelling figure. i also like to read him in relation to other writers. i do not want to simply celebrate douglass all by himself. actually, i have a book on douglass and herman melville. and they were in conversations in very interesting ways. i'll stop there. >> thank you so much. we are now going to take some questions from the visitors. [applause]

>> is this mike on? i have a common and then a question of frederick douglass. thank you for organizing this. as a young man born in columbia who was raised in washington, d.c., not someone who was -- a basket all-star or rap artist, having studying the u.s. history in chicago, that that is related to the relationship between lincoln and douglass. douglass was the first black man invited to the white house. i want to know your thoughts especially on lincoln's tragic end, but also my believe it was this best the speech, the president second inaugural what your thoughts, all of you, about -- on the very topic, on the fourth of july -- indiscernible] thank you. >> you want to answer? prof. levine: i've kind a revisionary chapter on the

douglass-lincoln relationship in my new books. so, i think the story that has been told is kind of inherent, implicit in the question, that lincoln very much admire douglass, douglass very much admired lincoln. they had profound interactions during the civil war. those interactions had an impact on both people. and douglass in particular was arguing very first to firstly f-- focvociferously for the right for black men to fight in the civil war. so, and then, douglass loves lincoln. i will say that. and then the revisionary part of

my reading from the kind of picking up on douglass autobiographical writings and speeches, i think the relationship has been overly mystified. they met several times. my estimate as they met for a total of one hour over four years of the civil war. douglass had speeches about lincoln that are highly critical,. douglass never voted for lincoln which is very interesting, in 1864, he does not vote for lincoln. he thinks that lincoln is committed too much to the union and does not care as much about the slaves. and there is fascinating material and -- in douglass's magazine in which months by months, going after lincoln. and he is concerned that lincoln wants to colonize blacks, to central america. so, the revision as part of my reading is that this was a more

prickly relationship than has been previously been thought. that does not mean that by 1865, that these people have not profoundly influenced each other. i think that is also there. i think it is one of the more fascinating stories about the civil war, this particular relationship. lincoln was keeping an eye on douglass. in the early 1860's and reading what he was saying, there is evidence of that. and douglass was following the lincoln-douglass debates -- stephen douglass debates in 18 58. to make a long argument short, what i argue in my book is that there are more profound human connection between frederick douglass and john brown than there is between frederick douglass and lincoln. at least to the time of the second inauguration.

but i still see profound influences on both sides, and the lincoln is a fascinating -- douglass gives,, speaking of great speeches, he gives some great speeches about lincoln and about his love of lincoln and about lincoln as a great savior of the country. it is a complex, prickly and still very moving relationship between these two great figures. >> than you. another question? >> i have a quick question that may be anyone on the panel can answer. one is about the relationship between douglass and harriet tubman, because they were both from the eastern shore. although they were from different counties. i am not sure about the dates on that. and the second one is, i thought more about this over the years as i have studied african american history, my history, when douglass was making his speeches about slavery, what were thoughts of native americans?

what did douglass think about the status of late americans -- native americans, because slaves were not citizens, free blacks were not citizens and native americans were not citizens. so we had three categories where there was no citizenship. so, i will go back to harry tubman, since harry todman is real big right now -- harriet tubman is real big in dorchester county. did they meet, did they have similar thoughts? prof. levine: i don't know too much about his relationship with harriet taubman. they knew each other and spent time together. in particular when frederick douglass lives in rochester new york, he is fairly close to the canadian border. and where's harry taubman trying to take the people she is helping -- across that border? heshe's going to rochester staying at the douglass home. and i've seen in our collection,

we have a collection of thousands of objects that belong to frederick douglass. among them is one biography on harriet tubman. we know that frederick douglass included -- collected other people's narratives and that included harriet tubman. prof. levine: i don't remember him commenting on harriet tubman in his autobiography, which is why have not explored that relationship. douglass was always someone who argued for citizenship for people who were disenfranchised. and i think very powerfully, not to deflect too far away from your question, but in the 1870's, the 1890's, the time of his death, he was are going for citizen rights for asian americans for so-called coolies. that put them in the real

minority of voices during that time. so, i know less about his interest or champion of native americans. more about other immigrants who he was championing for citizenship and was arguing for voting rights for women. though he excepted -- accepted the constitutional amendments that initially gave black men and not white women the right to vote. and that led to extraordinary friction for a couple of years between douglass and women's rights advocates. >> yeah, and not just with the native americans but we know for sure the mexicans as well as asians and women. he became very famous in ireland because of the oppression --

some of the irish were having there. they look to do frederick douglass's writings for inspiration and hope. and when he was overseas there, he was very famous for speaking to what was happening with them. but he did, his speeches and his ideas did inspire and connect to people outside of african-americans. he did have a relationship with harriet tubman. and there were letters or some kind of correspondence between the two of them, and i believe she sent him a gift of one of her walking sticks. and he also had probably even more of an internet friendship with sojourner truth. -- an internet friendship. prof. levine: good question. >> i was wondering, massachusetts made slavery, outlawed slavery almost immediately after independence. and some of the other states --

felt it was incompatible with what looked coercion of independence -- also seemed like washington and jefferson were aware that slavery, supporting slavery was hypocritical. but it looks like more than just simple hypocrisy. their greed, the lifestyle they wanted to maintain, overrode what we are aware of. how, by the time douglass was speaking, how much had that, does it seem like the south had convinced itself totally that they were justified or were they still aware to some degree that that there was hypocrisy there? >> i think generally so, the context and as circumstances changed by the time that douglass gives his speech. some of the founding fathers maybe did see that maybe that if slavery did not extend, it would die, but they could not perceive the cotton gin.

they could not forresee that would slave traders would bring a lot more slaves into the country. that really strengthened the nation and the south in particular's commitment to slavery. they could not personally that -- for see that but we know that by douglass's generation, the founding fathers called slavery and necessary people. by the time of douglass, they are referring to it as a positive good, good socially, economically and politically for the country. prof. levine: by the 1830's, slavery was not going to go away in the south. i recently held a visiting fellowship at a southern university where they are all

saying, you know what? why did they fight the civil war? slavery was going to end naturally. i don't see that. slavery did not just and in the northeast in any kind of natural way, too. there is no specific moment in massachusetts where they said, slavery is over. it was like a series of court cases through the late 18th century. slavery was legal in new york state until 1827, which is kind of remarkable. new jersey had slaves up to the 1840's. so, when douglass is concerned about the nationalizing of slavery to the fugitive slave law, you can also look to the north. and even in places where there was not slavery like philadelphia, there is extraordinary segregation and racial strife. to the point where pro-slavery people can say to black people, run away to philadelphia at your peril. you are not going to meet a very nice state. but jefferson in the 1780's -- in the state of virginia -- he imagines the end of slavery. by the 1810s, 20's, that is over. interestingly, washington freeze

his slaves on his death. -- frees his slaves. but it do not -- it did not do much in virginia beyond being a symbolic action. >> it was really about the money. about the money that slavery -- i mean, just think about it. if i am a slave owner, and each of you are on my plantation, and everything that you are doing is free labor, imagine what that does for me and imagine what it can do for economy -- an economy. lincoln's argument to frederick was, you know, we can look toward ending slavery but it will take at least 100 years. so, lincoln's idea of ending it was we will end it but he'll have to be set up two and 100

years later because nobody could, connect with the idea of it just abruptly ending. and so, a lot of times we forget about the economic part of the reason why slavery existed. as slavery still exists today. with children, with women, with one of the things i think frederick of us would have stood up for in this day, the injustice in the criminal system. criminal justice system. the injustice in the prison system. frederick duckworth would have been just as controversial today as he was yesterday -- frederick douglass would have been just as controversial as a relates to some of the things that we are experiencing right now. there is slave labor that is going on right under our noses right now. and the reason why it is here is

because of the money that it brings in. in so that is the reason why. i believe that it was hard for them to let go during that time because it is hard for us to let go of this today. and just as we do not know much about it, and we kind of look the other way, it is how the public was looking away and did not know much about it back during that time and it took people like frederick douglass, william lloyd garrison, john brown and many others to bring it to public attention of what was actually going on. and then you go to other countries, and there is chattel slavery in other countries. >> that concludes the program. [applause] thank you very much everybody for coming. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> thank you.

we have a facebook question from peter, are there any historical resources on the people who died in the joint. be featured in our next program. twitter at c-span history. >> history unfolds daily. in 1979 c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies and is brought to you today buyer cable or satellite provider. this year marks the 100th anniversary of the death of buffalo bill.

up next from a centennial symposium held at the buffalo bill center in wyoming, historians talk about how he has been interpreted in museums, his relationship with the tribes that performed with him in europe, and his art collection. this is 90 minutes. >> it is a pleasure to introduce our first session. the group of scholars are well respected and well-known. they don't need much of an introduction. their names appear on their own publications. about the history of the american west and the ability of acknowledgments, more than likely you will run across these three names.