announcer: thurgood marshall was confirmed 50 years ago on august 30, 1967. next on history bookshelf, author wil haygood talks about his book, "showdown: thurgood marshall and the supreme court nomination that changed america." he examines the life and career of the justice, in particular his five-day senate confirmation hearing. this was recorded in the lincoln theater in columbus, ohio in 2015. it is just under two hours. >> i want to acknowledge and thank c-span for being here tonight. [applause] >> let's hear it for c-span.

[applause] mayor coleman: let me just say one quick thing about thurgood, how important he was to our country, for african-americans, for those who wanted to go to law school -- african-americans who wanted to go to law school, i was a part of that generation who looked up to him, believed in him, who was inspired by him. that i too someday could go to law school and i could someday become a lawyer. there is a whole generation of people just like me who have gone on to do that because of the bravery and the courage of thurgood marshall. so tonight, we are here gathered here this evening and i have view this really has the intersection of history and the future.

what to i mean by that? the intersection of history and the future? well, we are in lincoln theater. in this theater, this was the only place where black folks could come and get entertained in a theater because they couldn't go downtown. they would come right here. and this theater was nearly demolished. a wrecking ball almost tore it down. and we saved it, renovated it and it is now one of the jewels of the city of columbus. history tonight. [applause] mayor coleman: the intersection of our future of arts and culture in the black community, the revalidation, the of this king lincoln district in the process.

you history in the future, the intersection, will hagood who was raised in columbus, went to east high school, called himself playing basketball, everything he learned in life, he learned it here in the city of columbus. [applause] mayor coleman: his values, his skill, his inspiration. in fact, his first writing job was for the column post. it was located right around the corner. in this very neighborhood. will hagood never forgot about our city, even though he has gone on to win awards, written multiple books, great books.

one of his books turned into a movie, "the butler." someone who cares deeply about his past, deeply about the city columbus. and now he is one of the, if not the premier great american biographer in our country. someone we are proud of in the city of columbus. [applause] mayor coleman: wil hagood someone needs to tell the stories of our people. or they will be lost. and he does it in an eloquent way. in a way that is exciting and moving and inspiring for the future. for our children. i say we could never plan ahead unless we understand from where we come, and wil hagood has been

that person that has explained where we come from, so that we can march onto the future and he has many more stories to tell. history and our future intersecting here tonight at lincoln theater. thurgood marshall. thurgood marshall visited columbus many times. we did some research on him. it was somewhere between 9 and 13, 14 times he visited columbus. it goes all the way back to 1938. when he first came columbus, first recorded time he came to columbus, he may have come before that. but in 1938, he came to columbus, five years after he graduated from harvard law school. he came to our city to advocate, and to participate, to speak and many times thereafter, often at

the naacp annual meeting in the city of columbus. he probably stayed at st. clair hotel. which is right around the corner on garfield. because back in those days, black folks could not stay at the hotels downtown like they couldn't go to the theaters downtown. so they came to this area of our community. the harlem of the midwest. and i can envision thurgood inand i can envision thurgood marshall walking up and down the streets of mount vernon avenue, going to our churches, walking up and down the streets of long street, i can envision thurgood marshall being in this theater at some point in time. because everyone came to this theater on long street during

that period of time. so, this is an intersection between history and our future. and thurgood marshall helped set the path for the future of our country in many ways. he helped set the path for all of us here tonight, to enjoy the fruits of democracy and the greatness of our constitution. he was a true american that did so many good things to lift up our nation. lincoln theater, wil haygood, marshall, all the one time, in one place in the city of columbus. how fitting. [applause] mayor coleman: that the son of

columbus, he is our son, picks his city in this theater, where thurgood marshall probably spent time on the streets of long street and mount vernon avenue. tonight, you are going to hear about the lowdown with the "showdown." [laughter] mayor coleman: thank you. [applause] larry: the one thing i forgot to tell you is that i spent 16 years as president of the king arts complex and now i have spent six years as chairman of this board and it's great to have the two institutions collaborate and this is first of many to come. it is my distinct honor and pleasure to give you a brief overview of the wil hagood. although he needs no introduction to this audience.

he has authored seven nonfiction books, including a trilogy of biographies of iconic 20th century figures hailed as culturally important by the los angeles times -- "the king of the cats," "the life and times of -- adam clayton powell junior," a "new york times" notable book of the year. the second book of great noteworthy, "in black and white." the life of sammy davis junior. a multiple award winner and the next book was called "sweet thunder, the life and times of sugar ray robinson," named as a best book of the year by forbes. his other books are two of the river, about a 2500-mile journey down the mississippi river, and the family memoir of columbus, a family memoir: the story the butler needs no induction.

a story of eugene allen, a white house butler who served eight presidents, turned into a blockbuster movie. mr. hagood's career has been notable for 17 years he was a national and foreign correspondent for the boston globe. in 1990, he covered the civil war in somalia and was taken hostage by the rebels. he was eventually released with the aid of pakistani and troops. on another foreign correspondence he found himself standing outside south africa, the south african prison where freedom fighter nelson mandela was released after 27 years of imprisonment. little-known fact, he was one of the few american journalists to report from behind the berlin wall. mr. haygood has been a john simon guggenheim fellow and a national endowment for the humanities fellow.

these are two of the highest awards bestowed upon an author. he has been called a cultural historian. he has explored the social and dynamics of this country as the -- as few writers have. the works of mr. haygood come to life as he says his words are meant to engage in a conversation or going back to the old school way of life, simply lets wrap. he says that stands for revitalization of the apathetic public and i would agree. that is what he says motivates him, revitalizes him and gives him the insight to write these meaningful historical journeys. as mr. haygood says, his subjects must be inspiring, and by that he means they are welcome at his dining room table

for a sunday dinner. he wants to be able to talk with them and that's how he chooses his subjects. his book, "king of the cats," tells about this harlem congressman's rise to power and fame. it reveals one of the most effective legislative persons in the history of congress. adam clayton powell junior like thurgood marshall formed a bond with lyndon johnson, that moved major legislation through the house like no other. "king of the cats" is historically significant. adam clayton powell crossed paths with a thurgood marshall and they occasionally communicated. they had a common bond in their interests and they were aligned. this is another one of those journeys that wil haygood takes us to better grasp the significance of a historic figure who happens to be african-american.

in black and white the life sammy davis junior we learn that sammy davis junior was a fierce dedicated passionate civil rights advocate. he coordinated and pulled together both black and white entertainers to assist martin luther king in the civil rights movement. we witnessed the struggle that sammy went through in his conversion of his religion. we get an insight seat to his interaction with the rat pack, frank sinatra and company. we are a witness to history when sammy places a kiss on richard nixon and his career is forever diminished. the book also tells us that in the richard nixon, john kennedy race for president, it was clear that upon the history nixon was more deserving of the black vote than kennedy. we witnessed firsthand that no entertainer had the skills of sammy davis junior. there is a scene where he plays

every instrument and orchestra and we all know about his ability to sing and dance. "sweet thunder: the life and times of sugar ray robinson." sugar ray robinson, pound for pound, may be the best prizefighter the world has ever seen. that would include mohamed ali. wil will tell us that sugar ray was not just a fighter, he was a harlem renaissance man. he loved the arts, that included literature, dance, song and arts. sugar ray interacted with all of the great entertainments and artist during the harlem renaissance. this cat was hip and was cool and will told us about it. we get to see sugar ray in the life that no other author could have brought to life. again, wil it resurrected an icon. the story of eugene allen, the butler, who served eight presidents who turned into a very successful blockbuster

movie. again, wil brings to life someone who was invisible to america. wil gives us the dignity, the grace, the discipline and hard work of an individual who believed in the american dream. he brings to life an individual who is present, but invisible during critical times in our american history over 8 presidents. only wil had the insight to give us this perspective in the cultural competence to do so in such a magnificent way. "showdown: thurgood marshall" brought the constitution to life. he said, find the rules. i will live by the rules and i will be to you -- and beat you at your own game. he had been recently nominated for the prestigious 2016 andrew carnegie medal for excellence in nonfiction. [applause]

larry: not that the trade magazines and technical journals are the end-all, but wil has received for "showdown" four stars, they are from journals and magazines across this prestigious literary world. star reviews from publishers weekly, kirkus review, the library journal and booked list. the atlantic magazine said it best, wil haygood has rehabilitated thurgood marshall with "showdown." his decision to focus on marshall's confirmation hearing proves ingenuous. we at the lincoln theater conducted him as our first inductee into our walk of fame. boy, were we smart. wil also did our first fundraiser for the lincoln with the publication of the sammy davis junior book. patrick laszewski in the

library, we met, i can't remember at the office about four or five years ago, i do recall. but i think what the library has done in addition to this one city, one book and bringing the community together is extraordinary. wil and i were talking about family members and who traditionally have not read and each of us gave our brother a copy of "showdown." each of our brothers just engaged the book like nothing else. and we had a conversation, different from any other we have had before. this is the magic that wil haygood has provided for this community, this state and this nation, and i think when the world looks at america and it says, this is the journey that we went through to arrive at the crossroads we are today, this

book brings us to a place that i think we can engage in a discussion about race where no other had before. ladies and gentlemen, we present to you mr. wil haygood. set back and relax and enjoy the show. thank you one million times over. [applause] [applause]

wil: for some reason, the older i get the less i mind people saying extravagant, beautiful lovely things about me. [laughter] wil: i find that somewhat peculiar. i'm going to have more to say about larry james in a moment. when i was growing up in this neighborhood, going to munro junior high school right down the street, me my sister would walk to school together. those were the days when everyone had a transistor radio.

you could hold it up to your ear and listen or put it in your pockets. there was a very catchy tune from those days that i remember. it started out with spoken verse and then it went into song. and it starts like this. hey man, i hear you pretty good on your feet. well, don't you know there's a dance down on market street. [singing] hey, hey, there's going to be a showdown. showdown. and i have been humming that a lot. [laughter]

wil: even if i did leave my band back in dc. an evening like this wouldn't be possible without a great coalition coming together, organizations across the city have bonded and merged to make this night possible and to bring a native son home. i'm very mindful that great people, great organizations are represented here tonight starting with kappa and bill connor, susan bradford-- man, she is wearing a dazzling dress. i took note of that. [laughter]

wil: of the lincoln theater, dimitri neely of the king art complex, the columbus public library, and of course the mayor's office. i cannot cite everybody individually, but there are some people here who i would like to acknowledge. i will say a little something about you and then you can stand up. some of you know that i teach at my alma mater, miami university in oxford, ohio. the lady who signs my paychecks is here, so why wouldn't i introduce her first? [laughter] wil: she is the provost of miami

university, phyllis callahan. stand up. [applause] wil: dear friend of mine, used to protect me on these rough streets back in the day, many of you know him as a championship prizefighter, mondello johnson. [applause] wil: the athletic director of the ohio state university, eugene smith. i think he is here. [applause] wil: one of the great attorneys of this country, alex shumate. [applause]

wil: guy i used to talk with a lot about sports and life, jerry saunders. [applause] wil: last year, i received the rosetta james foundation award, named after an alabama civil rights pioneer. she's 90 years young. rosetta james is here and i would like her to stand up. she is the icon of american civil rights movement. [applause]

she's up in the balcony. she marched with martin luther king jr. [applause] wil: i can't tell you how touched i was when she called me and said she was to come. -- she wants to come. guy who i grew up with on the north side of town, dear friend of mine, we talked a lot about thurgood marshall the past five years, bob miller. [applause] wil: i studied at miami under this professor.

he was in the civil rights movement. he marched with john lewis, the selma hero. he was also jailed for marching in the movement. mulmeyer. [applause] wil: his wife is here. she has served me some mighty fine meals during my stay thus far in oxford, ohio, sumo meyer. [applause] wil: a writer can't dream of a moment like this when their book has been selected in a citywide program to be read by everyone at the same time.

i will be coming back in a month with a some multiple multiple, multiple -- what do we used to call those? [indiscernible] wil: yeah, multiple-choice questions. [laughter] wil: i can't thank the library enough where i used to go on saturday mornings with my $.50. there was never a car in my family, but i could go to tokyo, i could go to paris. i could go to memphis, tennessee. i could go to chicago if i could get myself into the library. the genius behind all that has been pat liszewski. [applause]

wil: i will be returning to the city -- i am going on a 24 city book tour and i will be returning to the city october 21, to appear at the ohio state university. that invitation came from the vice provost of diversity and inclusion at the ohio state university and her name is sharon davies. [applause] and wil: my cousin just living today -- just flew in today from atlanta, charles nichols. [applause]

wil: and my two sisters, diane and wanda are here. [applause] wil: my very suave brother is here from los angeles, harry haygood. [applause] wil: this is a man who i got to know some years back because i wrote a story about him, chief james jackson. [applause] wil: i teach media journalism and film at miami. and the chairman of the department played a large role in getting me to leave the war zones in journalism, and he is here, dr. warren campbell. [applause]

wil: david harrison has done a lot in this community with social justice issues. he is president at columbus state college, david harrison. i think he is here. [applause] wil: donna james, absolutely wonderful. [applause] wil: i think she is here. [applause] wil: it was great that the king center honored african-american judges this year and their legacy honorees. there was a man in this

community, who when he graduated from college and wanted to teach, they sent all the african-american teachers down to champion junior high school, but there were too many teachers down there. so he switched gears and went to ohio state university law school. he launched his career into law. i had a chance to get to know him. the first letter he ever wrote to me was about the brown v. board education decision.

he authored one of the last in great legal decisions in this country, linked to brown v. education. the decision that desegregated school system in this city in 1974. he became the first african-american federal judge from this community. i think every african-american lawyer goes him -- owes him a great debt. you can put his name in the same paragraph as thurgood marshall, and you would be proud to do so.

his name, judge robert m. duncan. [applause] wil: i have traveled from washington dc with a book for him and his family. his wife, shirley duncan, is here and i'm so honored by her presence. i would like her to stand up. [applause]

wil: doing my research for thurgood marshall book "showdown," i came across a letter from a lady named barbara ross. i was in arkansas, visiting the archives of the senator, john mcclellan, who was one of the senators who did not want thurgood marshall to extend to the high court. by the second day of the hearings, it was thought that marshall's nomination was in trouble because he was being grilled so harshly. a young lady wrote a letter and she concluded her letter to her arkansas senator with these words, "chances are that the nomination will be turned down. color doesn't make the person, senator, it is character that

makes the man. you one of these days, senator, the president of the united states will be a negro." years later, a kid born in this city in 1954, the year of thurgood's legal march, became a writer. and that kid, now a grown man, would find himself rolling through the fields of journalism, from charleston, west virginia, to pittsburgh to boston massachusetts, to the "washington post," in washington. the kid, now a man and a writer, had an inkling that the senator from chicago, in 2007, might win the 2000 election.

so the kid who became the man and the writer, went out and tracked down an african-american butler. stefan rochon, after the story that the kid born in 1954 wrote, the kid who became the man who became the writer, stefan rochon was hired as a technical advisor to the movie that the hollywood movie producers started to make in 2012. one day, stefan rochon was in the white house. he bumped into the negro president who barbara ross had

predicted would be in the white house. [applause] and wil: that president asked stefan rochon what he was up to. he said, i have just been hired to be the technical advisor to "the butler." and i stopped in the white house today because i wanted to get a little gift for the writer, for wil haygood who wrote the story. the negro president, who barbara ross predicted would win, turned on his heels and went back into his office and came out. he said, he had something in a blue leather case encased in velvet. he gave it to stefan rochon who

said, thank you mr. president. i know for a fact wil is going to love this. the president said, i think he'll love it too. the gift that the kid born in the year thurgood in 1954 received from the negro president, who barbara ross had predicted, is a presidential ink pen that i have taken from lock and key in my home and brought here tonight, and signed every book that you will leave here with this evening. [applause] nothing, nothing is more

personal than deciding who you're going to dedicate your book to. "showdown" has been dedicated to two people. both, like thurgood marshall, are trained in law. they are residents of this city. in i wanted to do a little something special for these people. so, this first person received the first copy of this book from the printing press, and i also

went to a jeweler in washington, because i wanted a goldplated nameplate designed to put in front of the book. when i asked the jeweler how much it was going to cost and he told me i said, hm, maybe i should go with a post-it. but i didn't go with the post-it. [laughter] wil: i went with the goldplated nameplate and it says. it says, the first copy of this book, showdown, by wil haygood to roll off of the printing press is exclusively for michael b. coleman. [applause]

wil: i would like the mayor to come up and accept his book. [applause] mayor coleman: thank you very much. thank you. wil: i have always wanted to feel like a mayor. [laughter] wil: and this has given me an opportunity to do so because i have written a citation to go along with the book. [laughter] wil: i gave myself the power to issue a citation. [laughter]

this is mayor coleman, it says, "to mayor coleman, in the dark days of legal segregation in state sponsored terrorism, the black sharecroppers and their families of the deep south gazed out upon the fields they worked. they were looking for help. they wanted to dream. so, a man arrived on the scene and began marching into the state and federal court houses throughout the south. he began changing the laws. he wanted rights for those in the field and rights for those in the big cities too. some of these people began referring to him as moses. his name was actually thurgood marshall. as laypeople, we do not need to anoint man or woman a saint. but, it helps us to know our

heroes have saintly ambitions. since you first took public office, you have sought to lift up. like thurgood marshall, your vision has helped all races and creeds and colors. thurgood marshall once said of someone he greatly admired, you didn't wait, you took the bull by the horns. you did not wait for the times, you made them. and as it has been noted in this midwestern city and beyond, you broke barriers. you didn't wait for the times, you made them. you have earned your place in the collective memories of so many. as you prepare to leave city hall, consider this book that has been dedicated to you a mighty wave from thurgood marshall and a literary valentine from a writer born in

the very city you have led. wil haygood, september 29, 2015." [applause] [applause] wil: the next book dedication reads, "the second copy of this book, 'showdown' by wil haygood to roll off of the printing

press is exclusively for larry james." i would like larry james to come up to the stage. [applause] and wil: larry, with the power invested in me -- [laughter] wil: i will now read your in citation. "to larry james, in the 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's, the big

fancy law firms of this great nation would have nothing to do with thurgood marshall. his name would never go on one of their buildings. and he knew it. he did not demoan his plate, he had a higher calling. he was fighting in the trenches on behalf of justice and freedom. time passed and walls came tumbling down. and history, as we know, turns rather beautifully. now there are many buildings, even an airport with the name thurgood marshall. since 2001, larry james has had his name grace a law firm in downtown columbus. brown and james. [applause] wil: yet, even with that distinction, time and time again larry james has returned to the trenches.

fighting in the name of justice and freedom. he has won so many of his showdowns. larry james is thurgood marshall's kind of lawyer. someone once asked thurgood marshall about his personal successes. 'i dug way deep,' he said. larry james, in the universe of law, art, books, and philanthropy you have set a glorious standard. this book is dedicated to you because, like thurgood, you have dug way deep. wil haygood, lincoln theater, september 9, 2015." [applause]

wil: one of the things that president lyndon johnson said after he nominated thurgood marshall, and after thurgood marshall was confirmed he said, "i want every black mother to be able to look across the breakfast table in the morning and know now that her son or her daughter can become a great supreme court justice or a great judge." the mother of -- marbley was one of those ladies.

she looked across the breakfast table and poured a dream into herson. i am very proud to prepare to have a conversation with judge marbley who will inject one more of those seeds that sprouted in the glow of the great men mighty thurgood marshall. please come to the stage. [applause]

>> right here. >> right here? >> yep. algenon: thank you. have a seat. [laughter] in algenon: now for the book. there have been in excess of 20 biographies written about thurgood marshall. so, what was the impetus for this book that tells his story through the context of the confirmation process? wil: there have been multiple books about thurgood marshall, but with this book i am hoping that -- well, somebody once came to duke wellington -- duke ellington and is said that they would rerecord a song that does a gillespie had made and the duke said, don't, dizzy has

closed the door on that song. so i like, i am hoping that people will pick up my book and if somebody else comes to them with an idea to write a book about thurgood marshall they will say, don't. wil haygood has closed the door on that one. [applause] wil: what i think though what was really a magnet to me was that marshall's hearings that were five days stretched over 12 days, and his nomination set in limbo for six weeks. before marshall the supreme court had been all white. and before him, no nominee's hearing had lasted more than a day. so with southerners leading the

charge, i knew that there was great drama in that, and i wanted to figure out why that happened and why they wanted to stop thurgood marshall. algenon: wil, you told it beautifully. wil: excuse me? algenon: you told it beautifully. [applause] wil: ok. algenon: against the backdrop of the confirmation proceedings, and we will talk at length about that. but it is also a very poignant story about the relationship between two great men, the relationship between thurgood and johnson. and you shed great light on this. so why don't you tell us why you chose that particular approach and use that as a subtext? wil: these were two men who, who were somewhat poor in their youth. neither was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

and so when you are poor i think that it soaks inside of you. i think it does something to you, it's sort of gives you a quicker gear into people, especially if you are inclined to help people. so thurgood marshall as this naacp lawyer went to texas to fight a voting rights case. in 1948, blacks were being for bid in for the most part, to vote in the democratic primaries. and marshall took the case all the way to the supreme court and won.

smith v. all right. the young senate candidate started winning election after election, and that was lyndon johnson. so you can argue -- i know some people think it is the other way around, but you can argue no thurgood marshall, no lyndon johnson, because with the help of the blacks in texas, they kept sending lyndon johnson back to the senate. and in the senate, he gained notoriety and he gained senate leader. algenon: there was a reason that lyndon johnson felt so comfortable around blacks in texas. fdr made certain of that. wil: yes, he appointed lyndon johnson to head the national youth program throughout the

state of texas. and lyndon johnson would get in car and drive on the state and visit blacks in houston and dallas and san antonio, and he would constantly tell them that one day things are going to be better. and i won't forget you. and i think that scarred him in a very humane way. algenon: we are going to get to lyndon johnson and why he was hell-bent on the marshall nomination. but first, i want to have some personal context for thurgood. now he was raised in segregated baltimore. and you gave us a great glimpse into his family. but was there a defining moment or a set of circumstances that

you feel made him the biggest advocates that he was? where did he get his fire? wil: some from his father who told him to fight back if anybody through racial epithets. thurgood marshall had a job. one day he hopped on the railway car and he was told to go stand in the back. and he said, mr. conductor, i cannot because these hats might fall out of my arm and get squished and then i would have to pay for them. and the conductor argued with him, shoved him, he fell down, they summoned the police and young thurgood marshall, 19 years old was arrested. and he thought that was wrong. and of course it was wrong.

the hat store owner fortunately came down and bailed thurgood marshall out, so he had been jailed as a young man for no reason except the color of his skin and that resonated with them. algenon: that resonated with him. wil: it resonated a lot. and it was coupled with the fact that his father used to like to take him in and out of state, federal court houses. because thurgood learned at a young age that the law subjugated blacks. he got it in his mind, i need to you make the law elevate blacks. and so he was constantly fighting the act of subjugation against the hope and promise to elevate.

algenon: and he got much of the impetus about how the law could elevate from a young dean at howard university. charles hamilton houston. wil: a great lawyer. algenon: a great lawyer, harvard trained, came to resuscitate the program. wil: right. algenon: how important was that relationship in setting the trajectory for thurgood's career? and tell us about the impact of the soldier that they took in the summer of '33 to the south, thurgood marshall and dean houston. wil: dean houston was a very formal man, very sophisticated. he wanted to go down south to look at the school system. he did not want to go by himself. he was afraid, with good reason. and so he asked this tall, strapping, one-time student of his. algenon: he was a graduate.

who had graduated. wil: yes, he did. he asked marshall if you would like to ride in a car and go visit school houses and take notes and file a report to get back to the naacp headquarters in new york city. they were both stunned at the stringent conditions of the school houses in many of the southern communities. the black children would have to walk 2 miles to school and had no buses. the white children had buses that were brand-new. they made notes of this. they take photographs. and they filed the reports. they were often scared. they were sometimes threatened. but they survived. marshall's mother and father

were worried sick that he was down south. algenon: now, what is interesting about it is, they did not personally witness acts of violence and brutality that characterized some of the details that you set forth so eloquently. did i say that right? set forth so eloquently in the book. wil: yep. algenon: but you talk and you trace the violent history of race relations in the south and talk about, you call it state-sponsored terrorism earlier. domestic terrorism is the same thing. but what impact did it have on thurgood as he traveled throughout the south and his quest for justice? and how did he handle it? wil: one of the amazing things was witnessing the amazing bravery of thurgood marshall.

algenon: and the lawyers who traveled with him. wil: yes. and the lawyers who traveled with him. he would often get to a town and the local black farmers would take turns with the shotguns. they would have to guard him through the night. he was the nation's best hope. he was a one-man crusade. he had other lawyers whom he would recruit that would help him file cases, but he was the architect of this naacp legal strategy. we have to go over here and file a case and to take it to the supreme court, then we have to go over here to texas, then florida, and then michigan. not all of these cases were filed in the south.

the book is a shaped around five days of the hearings. but what i -- algenon: the hearings did not exist in a vacuum. you had to give the hearings context which is why you told the various mini stories. wil: exactly. i wanted to take the reader outside the hearing room because hearings can be somewhat civil. thurgood marshall's were not that simple, but these hearing rooms, this hearing room was not covered by the press, either. i mean, talk about freedom of the press. four big horsemen who did not want him to -- were senator james east london mississippi, sam ervin of north carolina, senator strom thurmond of south carolina. algenon: senator mcclellan. wil: john mcclellan of arkansas. these people, they were powerful.

there were called barons. they had huge staffs. algenon: they were also called by the l.a. times a pack of wolves. wil: that is a nice line. algenon: a pack of wolves, that was a fair characterization. wil: id didn't say it. it was said in "the l.a. times." algenon: getting back to his travels to the south, a couple of the senators had a couple of violent pasts themselves. you explained that in the book, but i was struck by the circumstance of harriot and moore, who were naacp killed. som wil: these were dear friends of thurgood marshall's.

they were husband and wife activist. they came home one night. it was actually christmas eve. they went to bed. some they were away, klansmen has stuck dynamite under their house. early on christmas morning, the house blew out. harry moore died. immediately. harriot moore was rushed to the hospital. thurgood marshall has loved these two people and he had slept in their guest bedroom several times. een in that house that night if he had a been working in florida. harry and, harriot moore's daughter who i interviewed, she told me she had been on a train trying to get home for christmas. and she seated in the segregated

section. and nobody got word to her that her family was trying to find her. when she stepped off the train. lookedstmas day, she around and did not see her mother and father and she thoughts that she was might strange. she saw relatives walking toward here. she said, where is mom and daddy? they said, we have to talk to you. they said, well, evangline, we're sorry, by your father is dead. is holding onr and she wants to see you at the hospital. the doctors told the family that if harriot moore could hang on for seven days they thought that she would make it. she died on the sixth day. algenon: there was an interesting postscript. or fast-forward to 1967 fior

evangeline. wil: my goodness. when i was at her house and interviewing her over the course of maybe four hours, before i got ready to leave, she said, wil, can you come to my kitchen and help me get something down from my top shelf? saas i was walking from the living room to her dining room, i stopped in my tracks. there was a big oil, pain gigantic -- oil painting, 5gantic, maybe 4 feet by feet. i stopped in my tracks. it wasn't an oil painting of a her father or mother, it was an oil painting of thurgood marshall. i said, my god. this is -- mrs. moore, why didn't you tell me this painting

was hanging here? she said, oh, i don't know why. i, on the day that thurgood marshall was confirmed, a friend of mine in florida knew how close he was to me and my family, they had this oil portrait, they had it painted and shipped to me. and, i mean, i was just stunned that here i was sitting there for four hours and thurgood marshall was right on the other side of the wall. maybe he was listening. [laughter] algenon: i'm sure he was proud of the work that you were doing. moore'stten to know the as a result of his work with the legal defense fund.a s you chronicle his life, he lived for two years as being juiced is associate and from he ran the legal968,

defense fund. while he was there, if dr. king was the moral and spiritual leader of the civil rights movement, thurgood marshall was the chief legal architect. he made law. he was a sterling advocate. he argued before the supreme court 32 times, won 29 cases. the legalhe was at defense fund, would it be fair to say that he had trained his sights on dismantling separate but equal and obliterating plessy versus ferguson? we know he did that and the brown decision that had been discussed. but thurgood marshall, the advocate, spent much time in the south battling other issues, wil. many came before brown. you highlight the diversity of cases, the breadth of thurgood's

practice. why was that so important when you could have written this book about the events leading up to brown? wil: yes. the simple reason to show his versatility. brow lawyerh and he was also a lawyer with his feet firmly on the ground. he went to tennessee one time. 19 --was a, this was in world war ii era, and there was a little small town. lawrenceburg, tennessee. algenon: the judge read the book close. close. once i read something other than a cliff notes version. close. wil: close. mother wanted to take her radio back to this store. her african-american

son -- algenon: african-american soldier son. wil: yep, went to the store and the mother was talking to the clerk who was white and said, this radio does not work. malelerk, a young white said, you're a liar. you probably broke it. sonthe on looked -- the looked up at the clerk, as if he was i'm sure that somebody had just called his mama a liar. the mother said, i'm not lying. you are. slapped the black soldier's mother.

unleashed a punch that can only be summarized as an act of sweet thunder. [laughter] clerk knocked the white through the window. nightfall the city had been engulfed in a riot. and many blacks and some whites were shot, and they called thurgood marshall to the rescue. got most ofe and those who had been convicted off. but one night, marshall was getting out of town with a couple other lawyers who had worked on the case and he was stopped by the local sheriff. him one time that

he had been -- he said he wasn't. they stopped them again and then they said -- algenon: they stopped in the second time to check for alcohol. wil: yeah, drinkin.g g. then they stopped him a third time and said, you cannot drive a car anymore. let this other person drive. they went 15 yards in the car and then the sheriff stopped them and told everybody but marshall to get out. then they finally told marshall to get out, he was arrested for drunk driving. there was this river in this tennessee town called the duck river. when blacks were lynched, they were thrown in the duck river. their families would have to go get them. the three sheriffs put thurgood marshall in the back of the car and started heading off to the duck river. thelawyers, who were out of

car, quickly found another ride because there was a news man that was following them, too. they quickly hopped in the car and follow the car tours look duck river. the sheriff scott scared they were going to be found out they are attempted to kill thurgood marshall. thurgood marshall survived by that night. algenon: what was also interesting about that incident is when the sheriffs stopped them a couple of highway patrol .ars in the vicinity who did not intervene. was taken back into the town, they told him to get out of the car. and they wanted him to, walk to smart enoughhe was to know that once he was started walking away from them, he would get shot in the back. i'm not walking over there by

myself. i'm your prisoner. wil: right. algenon: he lived long enough for you to write the book. [laughter] wil: in line with that, marshall was very canny. there was no foundation, no federal department of civil rights in the south to protect him or any black lawyer. so, marshall formed an unusual alliance with of all people j edgar hoover. chatuld -- he was, would up mr. hoover, complement him. littled bring back knickknacks from the road for j edgar hoover who probably through them in a trashcan as soon as thurgood walked out. but -- algenon: there was a reason that thurgood got along so well the j edgar hoover and other iconcic

figures such as dr. king did not. what would you achieve your that you? wil: well, hoover detested the ku klux klan. he just tested them -- detested them. marshall would get these horrific stories about the klan hoover, i was in florida and i saw these 12 clansmen walking down the street. they own this town. your fbi has to do something about that, clean that little town up. hooever would get worked -- hoover would get worked up. where did you see them? marshall kept niggling hoover. algenon: a lot of their relationship, though, was based was a fact that marshall lawyer. he believed in the rule of law.

at least hoover held himself out as one giving fertility to the fidelity tofor the rule of law. wil: yes, marshall was very lable himself -- label himself liberal. marshall's thing was, the u.s. constitution is the constitution and the truth needs to defense. you are breaking the law. if you arrest blessed no reason, you are breaking the law. you cannot do that in the constitution. he used to carry it in his pocket. moore careseto the -- this would make a great -- [inaudible] marshall, after the moore case, there was scuttlebutt from the

y were going to kill thurgood before he got out of town. so, marshall knew not to call the airport, because one of the tells there, might somebody marshall has a tickets for friday night at 7:30. so, thurgood walked out of his and it's dark. he's getting ready to slowly make his way tho the airport. he has a friend driving. these two beefy-looking men, whites, start walking across the street slowly. now i think i'm lee daniels with the camera. you know? they start walking across the street. and marshall is nervous.

roll downsk him to the window and one of them means in and pulls out his fbi badge and says, mr. marshall, j edgar hoover sent us. our mission is to get you to the airport and get you out of here safely. a great scene, because -- when they got to the airport, and marshall and the two agents walk up to the desk, the clerk said, sorry, next flight is sold out. matter of fact there are no more flights going back to washington tonight. or tomorrow. and one of the fbi agents leaned over the counter, got nose to nose twith the clerk and said, you'd better find a seat on th at next airplane for this man or else.

hour later, thurgood marshall was in the air. algenon: it health when the agent flashed his badge. wil: yes, absolutely, yes. algenon: n ow, let's talk about the confirmation hearing. and, as i read the book and as i read about those five days of the hearings, especially the context of the violent episodes you portrayed throughout the book, i could not help but think that the behavior of the southern democrats, the gang of five, was a metaphor for white .haracter to decipher black advancement. did you mean to leave that impression or is that my southern roots coming to the fore? wil: no. because i am from north carolina. algenon: sam erving was a senator from my state. wil: there were some very real

things that happened that made the southerners who were trying to stop thurgood marshall angry. first of all, lyndon johnson, they considered him one of them. he was a southerner. the 9064e had signed civil rights bill -- the 1964 johnson'sts bill, in mind, that was the first nail in the coffin of white supremacy. 965 second nail was the 1 voting rights act. the third nail in the coffin of white supremacy with a nomination of thurgood marshall to the u.s. supreme court. lyndon johnson sought to emancipate the entire american judicial system by nominating thurgood marshall to the highest court in the land. algenon: now, at -- in june of 1967, when he announced or

least right before that, there was not a seat available. so, he had to use his political savvy. of johnsontions politics to make that seat available. that was a fascinating story. wil: yeah, lyndon johnson was hell-bent on integrating the u.s. supreme court. as you noted, there was no seat. so, there was a justice on the court named tom clark. he and lyndon johnson had texas roots. and so, lyndon johnson wanted to see tom clark. tom, how you doing? how's the wife? i had a boy. i got all daughters. i love them dearly, but wow, you

got a boy. old ramsey. i'll tell you something. i want to make ramsey my attorney general. dang it, i can't do it because you are on the high court and they will accuse me of nepotism. i know how much you love that point. i know how much that boy love zer ss you. i know any daddy and the country would be so proud to see his son ascend to the high court. but, tom, my hands are tied. nothing i do because it is no vacancy. lord, i wish there was a vacancy. later, i interviewed justice clark's daughter, a day

later, justice clark in fine health, had a lifetime appointed, when homicide, hey, hey,nt home and said, everybody, i am tired of the court. i think it is time for me to take a long vacation, may be placed on golf. algenon: or take a trip around the world. or travel. wil: so, it happened. tom clark stepped down. lbj nominates thurgood marshall. doesn't tell a single senator until the day of the nomination. a month later, former justice tom clark and his wife are sent first-class tickets around the w orld on a fact-finding mission. retire. nice way to what was the tone of the hearing

from the outset? did you get the impression in doing your research, and you told me that your research was done mostly through transcripts, is there a reason you relied exclusively on the transcripts in doing your research on the confirmation hearings? wil: well, let me -- let me correct that in case some of my miami students are out there. i went and tracked down as many people as i could, shoe leather, old-fashioned shoe leather. makes up most of my books. but the hearings. and the, the hearings from the ofset, james eastland, mississippi, who was the chairman, allowed the media in there on the first day for 30 minutes and that's it. he said, get out. that would never happen today

but he said, get out. so, they were not there. some of ask me how come the rancorous -- didn't make it into the median, into the newspapers of the day, the journalists were not there. some of the senators were on marshall's side. there were heroes. senator ted kennedy. algenon: senator hart. wil: phil hart in michigan. everett dirksen of illinois. these were great people who were fighting for marshall. algenon: and dirksen was one of the republicans. wil: yes, he was. and one of the things that they, during the hearings, they , they tried to paint marshall as not sophisticated about the u.s. constitution.

algenon: that was strom thurmond. wil: right, which is really pretty bizarre. algenon: he was one of the more sophisticated persons ever to grace the hall of congress. [laughter] wil: that was pretty bizarre. the simple fact that these were the leading figures -- algenon: sam ervin, noted constitutionalist. an of ocular figure -- a vuncular figure during the watergate hearings. but not so much during these hearings. wil: harvard law school. ssam ervin collected books, 35,000 books. law books, books about history. books about the arts, books

about religion. he had a ton of books. and he was a very smart man. but nowhere in none of those ervin ever feel he found a line or a paragraph that justifies equality for the black man. wanton: well, how about, i that stubborno statesman, strom thurmond. andhow, between thurmond they set theervin, tone for the hearing but it seems that they did the lion's share, and she recounted, of the question of the justice. wil: well, yes. they had seniority. they had been in the senate a long time. and they were known as the old

bulls. the old bulls. eastland in mississippi. the hearings, he got real quiet and glared at marshall and said, mr. marshall , do you like the white people of the south? that was a question. it was lieke a hammer fell. because that was the question all the southerners wanted to ask of thurgood marshall because their mindset said you have updated our -- up ended our way of life. thurgood marshall was considered public enemy number one. throughout the south . one white man in his late 60's who i interviewed, he said, one

of the amazing things is that when i was little in my community our parents would tell bad thurgood marshall is going to come get you. [laughter] and this is a line. yeah. my book.is a line in he told me, he said, and i did not even know what a thurgood marshall was. old bulls -- algenon: didn't all come to the table with clean hands, did they? wil: no. algenon: a couple of them had a murderous past. wil: you are stealing my thunder. that is a fascinating little sideline. james eastland's father several

months before eastland himself was born lynched a black man. strom thurmond's father murdered a white man. so if you look at the book in terms of fathers and sons, which is a subtext, thurgood marshall and his father willie marshall. strom thurmond and his father. james east london his father. there is a lot of blood and tear s and family history that courses through the book. , these were people who brought blood, family blood, into the hearing room. and also, there was a subtext of interracial sex. the marshall hearings happened in the same year as the loving case. the lovings were a couple.

there is a movie coming out about that, now. the lovings were arrested in the state of virginia in 1967. this was just weeks before thurgood marshall's hearings started. they were arrested for sleeping in the same bedroom. the charges were dropped if they left the state, and they did, they moved to washington dc to live. and strom thurmond had asked thurgood marshall about the loving case, the same strom thurmond who was sleeping with his black maid, fathering a child, and paying her hush money not to talk about it.

algenon: and he directed those comments a thurgood marshall, for a reason. wil: you're exactly right. thurgood marshall's second wife was filipino. and that wasn't strom thurmond's was strom thurmond's way of making an attempt to hurt thurgood marshall, during the hearing. algenon: those southern democrats, particularly senator ervin made the argument that his opposition to justice thurgood marshall was not dedicated on -- not predicated on race, but rather the judge's penchant for activism. he labeled marshall an activist. the warren court was considered an activist court.

how much of that was fact, and how much of that was fiction. wil: it was fact because there was no option. you had to be an activist lawyer to take down plessy versus ferguson. algenon: marshall said the constitution was a living document. maybe the constitution a depth pts to the times. the framers, i believe wrote it in such terms as a judge i certainly believe that marshall looked at it as an organic document. otherwise it would not survive this long. wil: one of the senators asked marshall, how come you don't rely or doubt voluntary confessions. and thurgood marshall said, well, i had a client once, black

kid, he was beaten for six days and finally voluntarily confessed. [laughter] algenon: there is a little known fact that the hearings were not going that well, at least through the first three or four days, even through day five. and as the hearings were dragging on, lbj plotted an alternate strategy. wil: they were not consecutive days. they were spread out over 12 days, which made thurgood marshall and the white house were very nervous. on the second day of hearings, president johnson was so nervous that he said to his aides, wow, my guy might not make it. they are tough. goodness gracious. and so johnson was hell-bent on integrating the supreme court.

so he stealthily summoned william coleman to the white house. william coleman was an african-american lawyer and worked with him on the brown case. and william coleman did not know why he was being summoned to the white house. when he got they're johnson told him, hey, look, my man might not make it. i need you on standby. if he doesn't make it, then i'm coming after you. and william coleman, he was taken aback. algenon: why did johnson think coleman could get past the bulls, while marshall could not? >> he was a republican, and he was not known as a civil rights fighter in the vein of thurgood marshall. >> and coleman, i think had been the first african-american ever to circle on the supreme court. -- to clerk on the supreme

court. wil: you are exactly right. algenon: justice thurgood marshall was eventually confirmed, 69-11. but there are 20 votes unaccounted for. i'm not doing the math, but i know there were 20 votes unaccounted for. tell us about those votes, which is amazing. wil: senators, they go to washington to vote for their constituents. that is their job. lyndon johnson started making some phone calls. and the phone calls went like this, a senator, my goodness, my goodness, my goodness. i see where there is a bridge scheduled to go up in your hometown next year. one of my sources is telling me they might be putting your name on the bridge. well, let me tell you like this.

there might not be a bridge. there might not be no money for a bridge, if you vote. so, what you need to do when you come out of your house next tuesday, go down to the corner, go to a coffee shop, and sit in there all day long. [laughter] and 20 of them were so fearful of lyndon johnson that they did it. they did not vote. algenon: there were 20 abstentions. wil: yes. and that is astonishing. they are sworn to vote. and, johnson, he put the fear of god into them if they did not vote. now, marshall, yes, he was

confirmed, but you have to pay attention to the arcane rules of the senate. if the southerners and those who did not like marshall, if they could stop the white house before they reached 60 votes, then they could filibuster the nomination to death. and so, they got only a handful of votes over those 60 votes. so, it was really a close vote, when you look at it that way. and the white house had some concerns going against congressman adam clayton powell was on the run. he had just been thrown out of congress for ethics people were linking adam clayton powell and thurgood marshall's name in the media, writing letters to the

senate. on the last day of the hearing, detroit erupted in massive race riots. algenon: same time, milwaukee. wil: milwaukee erupted in a massive riots. these riots, of course, were done because of decades of pain and a lack of opportunity. so -- so many things happened aside from the very powerful southern man who did what marshall to make it. so many thing happens-- he had sleepless nights. algenon: eastman drew it out, the more the riots raised, -- raged, eastland drew it out because he and irvine and -- he

and ervin and and thurmond coming back to the mantra of soft on crime, miranda. and as a result of you being soft on crime the inmates are running the institution in these cities where molotov cocktails are flying. adam clayton powell coined the phrase black power, so they were trying to draw some synergies between all of these rights. do you think the white house, sensing this, upped this game, put more pressure on the other senators including the democrats on the committee? wil: yes, the one thing the white house did was they got word out to voters, if you love thurgood marshall, write your

senator. start writing letters. people started flooding the white house with wonderful letters. some of these letters were hateful, but there were a good many of them that were very poignant. algenon: the justice served on the bench from 1967 to 1991. based on all of you have learned from your experience, do think he enjoyed his time on the bench as much as he enjoyed his time as an advocate? wil: well, i think that is a good question, but we have to wrap up for the book signing. i i think that thurgood marshall and how important it was to have a gifted, wonderfully talented lawyer on the supreme court, who

was black. now, what is he happy on the court, or happier in his job when he was traveling around the country after the court turned right, shortly after he got on it? no, i don't think they were the happiest years of his life. he ♪ he wrote a lot of distance, but -- a lot of dissents, but you can read those unlearn on awful - y ou can learn an awful lot about thurgood marshall's legacy. he really was a giant. i'm sorry, 70 people have said -- so many people have said that he got lost in history. and this book sort of

rehabilitates him. he needs no rehabilitation. but i will take the compliment. [laughter] >> i have one more question. we ♪ we may have a minute or two for questions from the audience. in in fact, i know-- so, you have written a number of books now. you have written about adam clayton powell, semi-davis, jr., sugar ray robinson, and how does this fit in to the bad beyond great african-americans about whom you have written? wil: i think my books are about american and african american history. they are told through a lens.

all of these people are rebels with causes, and their causes were freedom. and that is a good angle to shape your writing pen around. it is drama. these are great stories. marshall, of that group, marshall was the supreme figure. there is no doubt about it. but you could see eye to eye with adam clayton powell, sugar ray robinson, and mr. allen, the butler, and powell. i think it is best summed up like this.

on the day marshall was nominated, he was in the white house, and there were three african-american butlers. they were serving tea and refreshments. one of those butlers was eugene allen. mr. allen lived and work, lived sometimes, he slept over a lot, at 1600 pennsylvania avenue, the most powerful address in the world. in the 50's, much of the 60's, he could go back to his native virginia, and could not try on a suit in a store. now, he is serving thurgood marshall. thurgood marshall had seen how the law can subjugate blacks.

thurgood marshall, i know, look at those black butlers in the white house, and his mindset was, i am going to keep using the law to elevate you. and that, to me, is why i love the majesty and mystery of history. [applause] >> with that, thank you very much. [applause] lets thank wil hagood for an engrossing conversation. we are running a bit long, but we have time for a couple of questions from the audience. i know you want to take this opportunity to mr. haygood, ask him a question. speak now.

all right. yes, we have someone. come on down. >> hamilton houston, before him, there was hastings, william hastings. how do you think, because you heard about hastings being kind of more radical than houston, and by the way, i am a great -- great-nephew of robert carter. >> yes, great new yorker. is to just died, she was

my great aunt. >> thank you for being here. >> anyway, i am saying that, because because today i said to couple friends last week, who would think we would be talking today what they talked about 60s when we were born, where all the racism, so forth and so on. also, with the radical race theory of, you know, done with -- dealing with the lawyers with obama -- >> can you state your question, please? >> how do you think it would bring it forward with hastings so-called being radical, the big change and bring forth these guys to naacp? wil: i think different lawyers have different strategies, different times in history.

so, maybe the naacp lawyers now don't have to try as many of the kinds of cases that thurgood marshall tried, because there are more civil rights lawyers doing that kind of work. it is all still needed very badly, as we know, judge marbly himself voted on some epic voting rights cases. so, i think each generation finds its own best lawyers. >> last question. how do you think thurgood marshall would think about barack obama, and also the things with clarence thomas? wil: that's a loaded question. i

i think it thurgood marshall -- if thurgood marshall were here today, he would be very happy about the first family in the white house. there is no doubt about that. some things would pain him, as well. but this is not the same country it was in 1967, and yet there are issues we have to address. there is no doubt about it. i will take the question over here. >> how are you? >> hello. >> i would like to know that you all the men over there. are you going to weave any women into your historical biographies? [laughter] [applause]

[laughter] wil: that was not the question i told you to ask. [laughter] wil: i'm going to -- there are multiple-- there are multiple figures who i am thinking about writing about next. wait a minute now, let me sort of defend myself. my sugar ray robinson book, a major figure in the that book was lena horne, because she was a dear friend of thurgood marshall, but that doesn't quite fully answer your question.

thank you for answering -- thank you for asking it. i would like to welcome a woman to the stage. susan bradford. [applause] >> we have a facebook question from peter. are there any historical resources on the people who died in detroit? >> there was 1 -- >> you can be featured during our program. join the conversation on facebook at facebook.com/c-span history and on twitter @c-span history. talknight on afterwards, hedio host mark levin on t expansion of the federal government and what the country must do to move back to the what the founders intended in his book "rediscovering americanism." he's interviewed by former south

carolina senator jim demint. mark: have we reached the point will be cannot get back? are we now overwhelmed in the culture and politics, in the med ia, with this progressivism notion? phony egalitarianism? of the smothering of individualism. has it become so entrenched in our institutions that there is no way to rip it out? i say this. we have to do everything we can, confront it, debate it, to -- explain to our fellow citizens what is taking place p we have no choice. >> watch tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span's book tv. we're on the campus of gonzaga university, we will visit the archives and special collections to look at documents from the tokyo war crimes