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>> congress passed a law earlier this year that expands military veterans education programs. a house veterans affair xplt wanted to know how that's going. witnesses from various va offices responsible for the administration of education benefits for former soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen talked about their efforts to implement the 2017 law and about an information technology snag that created confusion among students. this is an hour and 15 minutes.

the subcommittee will come to order. i have to apologize in advance. i have to step out and have asked congressman to preside in my absence. so thank you for that. i want to thank everybody for joining us for today's hearing of the subcommittee on economic opportunity where we will begin our first oversight hearing on the implementation of hr 3218, the harry veteran's assistance act of 2017 this bill was designed or signed into law on august 16th, 2017 and a great example of what congress can do with we put the american people and in this case our veterans first and foremost in addition to the efforts of chairman row and other members of this committee, it was it result of the good efforts of many of our vsos.

two of whom are joined with us on the panel, student veterans of america. this was the first major improvement to the gi bill since 2011 and brought forth by many members of this house. to serve either in uniform or along side their active duty spouse or parent. while we can all be proud of the collectedive achievement to pass the forever gi bill, it's critical we work in tandem with other stake holders as the department begins it newly expanded or revised bill so we can if sure it's rolled out seamlessly. many of you can remember the significant delays that beneficiaries experience in 2009. i wasn't here then but we don't want that in this round of implementations and this happened after it passage of post 9/11 gi bill and i'm sure again we can all agree such delays can't happen again and it's our job to identify any problems and solve them and have a smooth implementation, cost effective for all stake holders involved.

i would be remiss if i didn't acknowledge the efforts to update them on the implementation. however, i think it's important that we have these hearings so that we can discuss as committee members and we can lend our support and help to you and others in the department as you work to implement this reform package. i have concerns about it focus this is getting from the va senior leadership. as we have found education programs are often over looked in the department as a whole. i understand the secretary and leadership team have many priorities but i hope they understand it will be no small feet to execute such a large reform initiative which will result in over $3 billion of changes to the gi bill. our investments and it taxpayer's investment and the impact it will have on the future success of student veterans is, i'm sure you'll agree, an important endeavor and wreerb got to get right. so i urge them to do whatever they've got to do to give folks the resources that they need to

roll this package out effectively again like we saw or were experienced in 2009. before i yield to ranking member orork, i want to focus on the it resources i just mentioned. i'm anxious to hear some of the testimony and i certainly have questions about this. since joining this committee it's always been clear that va's

ip systems are often so convoluted that when they make changes to the bill the patchwork system of it programs is not able to keep up which can cause significant delays for student veterans. the subcommittee's been told in the past that the plans for these systems would assure agility so they could quickly address changes in the law. that hasn't been the case -- it's not often a focus of the department. i hope this practice does not continue, especially for something as important as it forever gi bill and i look forward to continuing to work with the va and my fellow members to make sure these

resources are provided when needed. now i want to yield to the ranking member. >> there's not too much i can add to your excellent opening comments but to thank you and the majority staff and minority staff for insuring that we have a successful hearing today for those about to testify for our colleague and their questions. i think all of us want to make sure the forever gi bill is implemented successfully and work constructively together to see how we can insure that those are resolved and like it chairman i see the biggest challenge being one with it. and so appreciate the fact that general wurly is here and he's brought someone who can help answer those questions and suggest how we work together to insure that this goes smoothly and seamlessly for transitioning service members and for veterans. also want to thank the veteran service org physicalations that are here today. i yield back. thank our ranking member. with us today we have general

robert worley, director of va's education service accompanied by ms. chairman bogue, deputy va serbs and acting information account manager for the benefits portfolio within the office of information and technology. and mrs. kathleen for relzs. and analyst for survivors. so thank you again for being here today. before we begin with your testimonies i ask if you would please stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear under penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. thank you. please be seated and let the record reflect all the witnesses

answered in the afirmative. and all of you will be recognized for five minutes for your oral statements. let's begin with you. you're now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. ranking member orork. i'm please tootd be here to discuss va's work on updating the veteran's educational asishance act of 2017. also referred to as the forever gi bill. joining me is deputy director for operations and education service and va's project lead for implementation. it president signed into law which makes sweeping changes, expands benefits and truly

changes it way we view the forever gi bill for it future. the act as become known as the forever gi bill because of its most recognized feature as a removal of the 15-year time limitation transitioning out of the military after january first of 2013. to use their post 9/11 gi bill benefits. other important features are that it restores features since 2015. and enhances benefits for surviving dependents and purple heart recipients. it led them to leading and coordinating all forever bill implementation activities. also in record time a management contract that provides further support through it addition of additional expertise.

the law require as significant it effort with 32 of the 34 provisions if -- oit as committed to providing alution for it most pressing of these provisions. sections 107 and 501 which changed the way va pays monthly housing. they will assure timely processing of additional claims and will stand up new initiatives such as theedeth norris rogers stem scholarship by establishing specialized teams. and by hiring 202 temporary employees in the field. first focus on the 15 provisions and executing to effect

beneficiaries and ulkter stake holders. a vuvariety of outreach activities. va has been posting multiple updates on its gi facebook page and they healed twitter town hall reaching -- and participated in a satellite media tour with 23 radio and television stations reaching 4 million viewers and listeners and sent out mass emails and conducted multiple briefings to school certifying officials as you knothey target certain categories. and more targeted notification for example we have notified 8,000 beneficiaries that may be

eligible under the school closure provision. it has restored kwaeng 00 months of entitlement for over 200 beneficiaries. it's working hard on successfully implementing all of the provisions of the act on time. 13 of 34 provisions effected effective on 20 faen. res having regulations, designing training and more we continue to look forward to working with all of our stake holders. i look forward to responding to any questions you may have. >> thank you for inviting student veterans of america to toich on the implementation of

the forever gi bill. with nearly 1500 chapters representing veterans across it country, we're pleased to share the perspective commonly known as the forever gi bill made history. as one of the most significant pieces of higher education legislation this century, millions will have greater access to education and training we would like to share some perspective. driven by outcomes and fuelled with data driven decision making.

it ifcludes dozens of solution oriented provisions such as the work study authorization, science technology engineering and math scholarships. and many other provisions. the new law will also address inequities and looks forward to the future beyond our own generation. as leading advocates to the bill we're committed to the complete

and timely implementation of this law. with that interest in mind we thank the committee for the opportunity to highlight several key areas of success as well as some with room for improvement. we applaud them for their dead kaeted staff for demonstrating great initiative, especially their very public communication s efforts. until the forever bill, the only students with no reasonable recourse to recoupe their

benefits. the most prolific examples included the closure of itt tech -- unfofrp if thely thousands wered aversely effected and we aplaud va for allowing them to apply for restoration of their benefits. we're concerned so few have applied for the restoration under the school closure provision. like our concern with reaching purple heart recipients, contact information may not be reliable. we encourage va to partner with stud ntd veterans of america and others to reach out to the widest audience possible. the provision originated from the 113th congress. and congresswoman tidis. we are pleased to see it as a law. student veterans consistently site this as a component with which they have the greatest interest. as the forever gi bill was being developed, it became increasingly clear the implementation costs would be a significant driver of cost. we have major concerns about

whether they're receiving adequate resources. it represent as significant shift in education for veterans and higher education in general. more important than inputs and outcomes are -- that's more parent than ever. it has demonstrated results as president thomas jefferson said in 1808 the same prudence in private life that would prevent us from spending our own money -- we raise the question. whoicide be able to play in gi bill land? consider the precedent of the home loan program. many don't apply, leading to outcomes impressive by any

standard and perhaps the same should be thought about for the gi bill. we thank the chairman and ranking member for inviting us to testify. >> now i'll recog -- friendship. >> thank you, we thank you for the opportunity to talk about issues important to the families we serve, the families of the fallen. while the mission of taps is to offer comfort and support, we are also committed to improving support provided by the federal government for the families of the fallen. those who fall from combat or illness. taps appreciates the attention committee has paid to making sure they have benefits that give them access to quality education. taps provides specialized support through our web education portal regarding the

education benefits available for children and spouses of america's fallen heroes. staff members work with each individual to maximize the financial support they can receive to complete their education from both government and private agencies. this also allows us to hear from survivors where they if counterproblems and stumbling blocks in the process. we are most grateful the provisions in the veteran's educational assistance act of 2017 that supports survivors and most appreciative of the opportunities to comment on the implementation of this legislation. we have heard from many of taps surviving spouses concerning the implementation of the forever gi bill. while they're most appreciative of the enhanced benefit, many have concerns. we have work would the va to solve many of them. fersh is the date found on a va certificate of eligibility that informs the individual of the date they are no longer eligible

for education benefits. as of early december, they're still receiving the let wrz the 15-year delimitating date. while some are aware, they're reluctant to actualize their education plan until they have the correct education on their certificate of eligibility. taps did query about this discrepancy. they offered that while it upgrades are in process, the system does not currently allow the letter to go out without a delimitating date. we appreciate it steps this office has taken to develop or work around, including enhanced training to call center personnel to if sure eligible recipients that there is no delimitating date, sending letters if forming spouses that for had is no delimitating date

and manually changing new certificates of eligibility until they find a new solution. as said before the success off the implementation is entirely dependentant on changes to the it system. we hope there will be funding to expedite this process. while mandatory training for school certifying officials is included, we're concerned about the schools being fully aware of the changes coming in august 2018. we hope there will be coordination within the schools so the person talking to the student is aware of the changes. taps biggest concern with are the changes being implemented in august is there will be delayed payment in the fall 2018 simester. even with the few changes this

fall there were issues with schools demanding payment because of delayed va payments. students receiving va payments were not allowed to register for spring 2018 or use campus facilities because the va payment was delayed. in some cases they were put on payment plans they could not afford or forced to take out student loans with egregious origination fees to continue the education program. taps recommends they have the same profection as those who receive title 4 funding such as pell grants and student loans. they believe the best way to do this is through a legislative change. we've been in discussion to assist these students. it would give the va the ability to -- untlsz educational institution permits to attend permitting payment by the va and accepts a eligibility as a

prommes for payment. continued cooperation for the va, and interested vsos and survivor advocates is essential to make the forever gi bill a success. taps will continue to provide feedback to both the va and committee on the experience of survivors. thank you and i look forward to your questions. >> you're welcome and i thamg the panel for their testimony today. general, first of all thank you for your service to our country. on a conference call last week subcommittee staff were informed that due to a problem with the va's it system the department will still have letters and certificates of eligibility that will be sent to chapter 33 beneficiaries that show their gi benefits expire, despite the change made in section 112 of the forever gi bill. on the call the proposed work around was to send the ben

fishiary a separate letter telling them to basically ignore it first letter. wrought the department's plans to address the situation, this particular situation which if not addressed will certainly cause mass confusion for are had program participants. i can't believe this is happening. and our soldiers, our veterans deserve better. they deserve certainty. so i'd appreciate it very much. >> couldn't agree more. we want to put out consistent and accurate information to our beneficiaries. we appreciate it concern the committee has on this. i'll answer this. i'll start with part a of the answer and i'll turn it over to talk about part b of the answer. part a has to do with it initial certificate of eligibility that

was mentioned by our colleague at the table. after we've done what we need to do to check eligibility requirements. those are manually generated and we can and will start this month manually updating those letters so that it's clear because there will be -- well, not starting now but we have to check the eligibility and make sure it's after january of 2013 and then those letters will be updated accurately to reflect whether there is or is not a delimitating date. >> how much time will that take to manually update the letters?

>> these letters are manually produced anyway, the initial certificate of eligibility. so it's a little bit of added time to the claims examiner's work to do that. it's not a big impact. the bigger impact that we were concerned about has to do with the enrollment letters. so they get an award letter that updates them on the amount of benefit they have left and what they're being paid and housing and so forth. the reason these letters are difficult to change quickly is because they're integrated and tied into the code of the long-term solution.

so i'll turn it over to talk about respect to the award letters. >> please. >> thank you. since our discussions with staffers on friday we've actually gone back -- i've been working with my engineering team. we've built -- we'll be delivering work arounds. we'll be delivering a solution in our march release. the key thing here is making changes to the logic that generates it letters. we're doing this at it same time trying to decommission another system part of that patchwork that we're trying to clear up. and so we're sort of in the process of eliminating the patchwork underneath the hood at the same time as making changes while we're doing that is a problematic and risky thing that we're trying to manage that risk. that said there are a few things we're committed to doing and

making happen while we're doing that decommissioning work on pdf. one will be the changes to letters. we'll have those done within the march release. >> is there a possible you can contact, obviously the heroes to ease their mind maybe verbally over it telephone what have you? maybe not an official notice but have you considered that as well? if you can post it on the website or get to congressional offices so that we can get the information if they call in? >> absolutely. we can do that. this is relatively late breaking news. >> facebook, what have you, social media. we can all help. >> absolutely. >> i don't have much time left. why don't i go ahead and yield to the ranking member. thank you. you're recognized for five minutes. >> thanks. i have a number of questions but i don't know that i understand the answer yet to mr. bill racks's question on this 15-year

time limit. are letters going out today still erroneously saying you have to use this within 15 years? >> yes. >> and not a programmer but i got to think -- and don't go into detail. but i got to think that's not a three month fix. you said by march this will be fixed. i mean can somebody, as they're printed out manually with a sharpy cross that line out before it goes in or can we do that in a code? it doesn't sit with anyone, probably yourself included.

is there a way we can do this now instead of three months? >> i don't think so. congressman orork. it -- i understand the incredulously of -- you can't change a letter quickly. but again ne'er integrated and part of the automated code and they need to be that way because we're sending personalized information to each ben fishiary related to their benefits and how much they're getting. it's not just going into a word document and changing a few lines. it's much more complicated than that. we wish we could do it more quickly but i'm relying on our it colleagues to tell us what's within the realm of the possible. >> and maybe there's someone out for in the private sector or in the volunteer community who would be willing to take a look at this code and offer their expertise if we are so taxed in

being able to change this. just not to in any way undermine the success you've shown in being able to implement this following the august signing but this is something i think sticks out for everyone. another issue ms. mokeler brought up sn delayed va payments and she suggested using the pell grant model. any thoughts on that? >> i don't have any particular view of that right now. sir, we haven't really addressed that issue in my office. surtsenly would love to talk more about that. i suspect that would take legislative change to do that and we'd be happy to work with the committee. >> so you'll give your feedback on that and i understand the majority staff may already be working on this. from the minority side would like the work on this as well and make sure we're successful. loved your point about the outcomes more important than the inputs and we've had this conversation about several programs that come through this committee. i want to make sure we're fully measuring outcomes here as well. and you suggested that we have greater scrutiny and higher expectations for the educational institutions that are participating.

any recommendations as we continue to perfect this law or administratively anything that general worley can run with? >> yes, thank you for the question. i think it is a relevant and

critical point today and my colleagues from the va can correct me but i think it's somewhere in the realm of 14,000 programs are approved. that's crazy. all of those schools i suspect are not delivering good outcomes for student veterans. i know that first hand and can probably point out a couple we all know of. and i think ultimately the focus on outcomes verses what's going in and coming out is critical. what we know is they're winners and when given the right tools to succeed they do. and that's something we have a special focus on as it pertains to things that can be changed. there's internal tools i know of that the va is taking a look at to increase their standards and really have some rigorous methodology as to who's available to get gi dollars. i think that's something the committee would be interested in taking a look at and working with certainly us and many of our partners in the nonprofit space.

>> i'm going to yield back to the chairman but if we're able to follow this very good recommendation i think it has to be tied to some measure of outcome so that we truly understand performance for these different programs, not just did the student complete the course of study but what was their earning potential in the following 10 years or were they able to find a career or purpose and i think all of those are incredibly important. so thank you for raising that. >> agreed. from the great state of florida. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and thank you, panel for appearing here this afternoon and general, i'd like to begin with you and ask can you tell me how aware have you made the senior political leadership at

va aware of the challenges that this legislation has created for you. >> i've personally briefed the secretary after the act became law. with those challenges both the it assessment of about $70 million and our initial assessment of what would be required in terms of people without it solutions. so i'm very confident that secretary is aware of those challenges. addressing the two most critical and initial provisions dealing with housing alouns which had the biggest people impact and so

toes are underway along with the massive effort as he mentioned. and some of that has been absorbed in terms of the funding. we need more funding later but at this point we've come a long way. so i think the senior leadership is aware of these challenges and we're getting the support. >> and it drill down on the it a little bit, mr. thrower. 22 of 34 elements are going to require it, as i heard earlier. can you talk about -- has there been anticipation of what the 2019 budget needs to looking to like to give you it capabilities that you need within it to fully implement?

>> yes. we've pretty extensive discussions internally about what it would take to do this and at the secretary's request we've been looking at alternative approaches of managing this endeavor as well. one of the -- for instance one of the most significant things we will have accomplished in eliminating, consolidating all education services around the lts platform, eliminating several of the -- a lot of the patchwork under the hood is we will be given -- we'll have the opportunity to potentially look at this as a managed service and so we're going to be -- we're going to have a decision date

this spring of where we are with the decommissioning effort, what our options are in the external market. if we go the in-house development. i think because of the work we're doing and the work under the hood we're actually going to have a lot more options from an it perspective of different ways we could solve this problem. >> very good. and i want to ask mr. hubbard and mrs. mokeler about the fact that educational services, the oversight falls within va benefits and there's been some discussion about unique problems that creates and before they comment, do you see that as an

issue for it that the oversight is under benefits as opposed to education services? i mean you work across different chains of command anyway. >> i actually think it's a really good fit within benefits. in fact because of many of the other -- at least from an it perspective i look at many of the capabilities we've delivered over the last few years have been able to -- have created certain services that are allowing us to integrate capabilities across it department. it fact that we now, for instance have an electronic e folder and has things like marriage certificates, other critical documents that can be used by education benefits and other areas. this as been a great benefit to us and is creating a lot of flexibility we otherwise didn't have. >> i'm just about out of time. mr. chairman, if they could briefly answer. is that a problem for you?

and i think you actually mentioned a legislative issue that could help with some of this oversight. was that correct? >> yes. but that was pertaining to the delay of payment of the va benefits to the colleges. who weren't allowing the students to take advantage of reregistering for the next semester. >> just with that certificate? >> yes. >> mr. hubbard. >> i think it's an excellent question and thank you for addressing it because i'm actually going to disagree a little bit with my colleagues from va on this one. i've seen long term the focus on outcomes is lost when economic opportunity is in office is buried within benefits. i believe. my most important decision i said already.

they should under the rules right now i'm not allowed to do it but i would have done that directly and that would have demonstrated the commitment i had personally. of course i could not do that. my first surprise, no one wanted to have the u.s. government own a piece of their business. no one wanted to even sell 10% or 20% to -- i don't mean to pick on usaid -- or any agency. i hadn't understood the animosity or fear of that. how do we overcome that? we would have meeting after meeting and -- we were buying equity because this is a country that needs equity more than debt as you may know, interest rates are now 18 or so percent. equity was important. so we had to overcome that. the first mistake we wanted to buy a bank. we knew that financial inclusiveness was absolutely critical. no small or middle sized enterprise without capital can

grow and our task was to grow the economy, if you grow the economy, you're going to create jobs and that's very important. in most of the countries, certainly in egypt, you have maybe a 30% unemployment factor in the youth. that's a dangerous factor going

forward. you have to solve that problem. you have to find a way to create jobs so we have to grow that and a question to all of you. we thought about possibly employing social media to let veterans know what the real information out there is, what the facts really are. >> thank you, congressman. we have leveraged social media in a huge way with respect to getting the word out. we have a website, as i mentioned in my testimony, we have web pages dedicated to the provisions with links for example to the application if your school closure, impacted by school closure. we put things on facebook pretty much daily emphasizing certain aspects. >> what has the outcome been? i have a daughter 17, kids in

the early 20s and facebook is where they live, not on web pages but facebook. have you gotten good response? i'm thinking to myself, as you're trying to put out the good information on facebook, accurate information, you're sending out letters that are inaccurate. creation will be of confusion out there. somebody sees and official letter from your department, this is something on facebook, maybe you ought to stop sending out those inaccurate letters and focus on social media getting out the right information. >> that's what we're doing. the facebook dialogue is continuous, and if you'd like some of the feedback about that, some of it is disgruntlement, quite frankly, with the fact the forever part only starts 1 january of 2013. people that became eligible prior to that or discharged prior to that, in some cases

have concerns about that. there's an ongoing dialogue of various concerns. we're trying to push out the information correctly, we're fixing the letter problem. the initial letters will be fixed this month, at least within a couple months we'll have the logic fixed for the award letters. >> thank you. mr. hubbard, we're running out of time. i want to ask you and the rest of the office to engage with us on how to focus on outcomes. this is not a new problem. we heard this over and over in california, we're not training the students for the right job openings. how can we get to that point where we're training veterans for 50, 60, 70, $80,000 jobs when they come back stateside. it's not rocket science, putting one opportunity in front of these veterans and making sure

they're able to seize that opportunity. whatever suggestions you have, please, we're here to listen. thank you, sir. >> thank you for that. it's a great point. we're finding they are making informed career paths when they know what they're looking for and see the solution to it, unfortunately in a lot of cases they're not getting the right information and why we're making a strong push. >> i guess my question, i have six seconds, why aren't they getting the right information and how can we get them the right information? >> another very good point and points to the fact that the transition assistance program on the dod side of the house is worth taking a look at as well. >> chairman, i yield. >> i agree with that. >> thank you. great to have you back on the committee again, general.

introducing the veterans back on campus act in 2017 was rolled into the forever g.i. bill package we're very proud of i wonder if you can give us an update and elaborate on the progress it has made now that it's permanent. have you seen more veterans using it? i know it's only been a very short period of time. have you expanded it on a number of campuses and can you give us an update how that's going? >> thank you. as you know, congressman, the vre is a separate office from me. i can tell you, from what i understand now it codifies, as you pointed out veterans success on campus, highly successful

program. i believe it's serving about 90 some -- over 90 campuses. my understanding at this point is we don't have plans for expanding the program this year. beyond that, i'd have to take back any further status for the record. >> can you elaborate on the lack of planning for expansion as it was clearly a priority in the bill? >> we understand that, sir. i would have to take that for the record and have the vre folks respond to that. >> we'd appreciate feedback in the future. could you also provide information on the performance of the v.a. education call center in oklahoma and what type of training they're receiving on the legislative changes that were enacted in the forever gi bill? >> they have received training on this from the beginning, fact sheets and so forth, in order to be able to respond appropriately. that's a big lift with 31 education provisions as part of it, some of them quite complicated.

so we not only have rolled out the scripts for them to use but then continuing to evaluate and improve them as we go along. >> that's all i've got. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> mrs. rice, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman.