continue. >> q&a sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span. >> the new russian investigative journalist has written a soon to be published book on government-sponsored hackers. he talks about russian hackers and their cyber attacks at the wilson center in washington dc. this is one hour. >> i think we are ready to start. good morning, ladies and

gentlemen. i am isabella, welcome to the wilson center. i will use the moment to advertise our upcoming events that will happen next week on friday, january 19, 10:30 until 12:00 o'clock. we have a book talk on the ukrainian revolution. marcy sure will be speaking, author of the book and a professor at yale university. another director for the communist society for the university of maryland and i also take the opportunity to remind and follow us on twitter and find us on facebook for the latest events and publications. also, please make sure to read our blogs. one focuses on prussia and russia file and the one that focuses on ukraine [inaudible].

to today's event all you need to know about russian hackers we are very pleased to have as our speaker who is here with us for a few months as a cannon expert at the cannon institute and investigative journalist based in moscow, russia. he works at the russian news website and he studied his career at [inaudible] and works for the biggest russian news work and was fired for political grounds and left along with its reporters and editors and started it independently medusa in 2014. most of his reporting is on the refugees and the lg tp rights in russia in the islamic state. in 2015 he got the gq award in journalism about reporting for

isis and its connection to russia. his stories have incited in "the new york times", the new yorker, the guardian and other respected western publications. i will add that he received the [inaudible] prize which is the most highest russian journalistic award and i will add parenthetically that the founder of it was [inaudible] who also happens to be a fellow here at canon at the moment. we are really pleased that we have such a strong representation of russian independent journalism here. with that, the floor is yours. >> hello, everyone. it is great to see you here. my name is [inaudible] and i'm a reporter. medusa is one of the regions, independent, in russia to news

in russia. [speaking in native tongue] now, in december after three years of working we have alrea already. in medusa i specialized in narrative stories like big stories about isis and influence and links to russia like this example of scout immigrant workers became islamic state fighters or like my topic lgt problems in russia and political groups against lb gt like the story. the last two years particularly i worked in stories about russian hackers. russian hacking activities

against russia for example, this is an article about how russian services recruited guys from around the country russian cyber army. now, in the cannon institute and in the book it's the history of russian hackers from the soviet to today. today i will tell you stories about them. i don't want to talk a lot about possible russian packings for the american election and i think the last two years but i want to talk about russian hackers and their connections to government. elsewhere in the world, in russia the [inaudible] were close but a big story leaked and

for example this is alexandra she's a former employer that provide services to protect against attacks and in august 2015 she left russia and in a few days after this when she fled russia we met in helsinki and she showed me the documents that told really dramatic and a story about russian cyber weapons. by his words in february 2015 she was invited to a company [inaudible] and expert in military company and on a trip to bulgaria and all of the trip

turned out to be demonstrations capable of [inaudible]. this is the city of [inaudible]. these are people demonstrating in bulgaria square at the site of the ukrainian minister of defense and then went through the russian website. up to the demonstration [inaudible] they deny this.

he told him that the russians tried to buy this in $1 million. when turned down the offer his problems began. he was taken by interrogated and that's why he went to finland. this year might be two months ago and now he is changed his name and now he's working in government companies to hacking in elections around the world and why i tell you about this because it's a rare case when there were other interest in russian state and services to cyber warfare came to public

space with real men and real ideas. in recent years russian military officials have made statements from we can't understand has already gone in the cyber army. [inaudible] we are searching for vulnerabilities and in late 2015 [inaudible] said that question was developing technologies for cyber war. in the last two years might researchers with russian hackers showed that the hackers and corporations and government

based on two lines and this is professional selection and criminal selection and professional selection includes the simplest can we turn off the lights please? okay. the competition is like [inaudible] and the young program is to run the country compete with each other in programming encoding and these events are popular with security guides because they come to the competition and offer the work for the people. also they have school camps

school programming in the summer or winter's or from russia. another simple way to recruit hackers is investigating in moscow school they are working with young programmers created by a theory which proclaims goals to train and aid specialist for security agencies and the employers regularly can make it with them and it is great to work and see this. that's why i began to [inaudible]. it was organized by computer

sciences [inaudible] in order to resist corrupt or support the american way of life taught modern russia and he wrote that he was saying it was informational technology. other way in national selection of hackers is [inaudible]. the russian defense at the meeting in moscow that he was a head hunt of colors and as i

investigate they published in most network in russia and one video -- can we put off the lights please? thank you. this video's minister of defen defense.

defense. this video was a caricature of the image of cyber soldier with

i can translate some of from the video if you graduated from college and the technical specialist and if you can note that we give you an opportunity this and they said comfortable recommendation of an apartment burnished and in the spring of 2014 ministry of defense appeared in the defense forces information operations for foundation and they were created and it was used for the country and with mathematicians, programmers, cryptology is, he began to work together.

in the [inaudible] one of the teacher of these training center explains that the main task is to learn the methods of cyber attacks them is a barrier. in addition the students had to walk out of the regions of cyber attacks in order to use them. one of the documents laid out in the community of scientific's indicate that it was vulnerable to networks and software. in response to prepare for the visit was with the military.

the representative and ministry of defense called me and said that it doesn't show them to anyone and did not tell anyone about them and this topic is closed and don't risk and it doesn't seem to put only yourself aside. also, to promote the television needed the channel to release the 2014 awad is not in english. about recruits regarded into cyber army and it sounds like for every hole up to use the internet.

[inaudible] i have a document from the minister of the best published soldiers computers and educated their development of special software. other part of relations based on assumptions from criminal in this is some -- next chapter. this is the district in moscow where it one of russian hackers, [inaudible], was born here. she's a good example for hackers in russia and he got interested in website with was 13 in the early effect then this peter was two weeks to play video games

and he needed to find something else to do. one of his classmates meanwhile had started creating websites and he heard the lessons was designed to write out the code by hand and this is was how inventive and then i got into the packing system that i was told. together they started hacking classmate sites and eventually they lost interest but the interest only grew. [inaudible] people discuss the vulnerabilities of cyber

security news and this form has different levels and in this i got to know other young hackers and within a few years these individuals would become the best hackers in russia while other began earning money legally and illegally in some of the people whatever they learned in american prisons and they were offered a choice to go to jail or to walk. [inaudible] the hackers often

hide and he was told that he knows about a few cases when police arrested hackers and they went to the playstation and they were told this is not your business. one of the instigators told me once that after the cold war [inaudible] raised an intelligent service to extract information. however, such good hopes that

russian state doesn't cooperate with hacker groups and the in his opinion that hackers can only be controlled if there put in a room [inaudible]. he is confident with cyber weapons that the future can get out of control and that the tax will not be caused by size of personal correspondence but one object. for example, is a critical infrastructure or financial system as [inaudible] in iran. usually groups when they metastasize, specialists or governments completely change the structure but since they made a number of packing but

they operate for the same algorithm. they were not afraid. other stories about criminal selections. [inaudible], the leader of a group and this is footage from the capture of [inaudible]. polish and cyber recruits -- the light please. police and cyber security and members began to in 2011 and by 2016 the group had stolen three rubles which is $50 million in russian banks. this is a connection and that's

the suspects homes were searched and thrown into police stations. they bought luxury cars like cadillacs, rvs, mercedes. altogether they got in this operation about 80 separate rates in different regions the people. the men arrested for technical experts and by [inaudible] was involved in this investigation says the group leaders recruited

many people on ordinary search searches. both failed to mention that it would be legal and they worked. [inaudible]. every morning different people would sit down with computers and all across russia they would get to work.

suddenly with the leader of this group they said he wrote for [inaudible] for many years after because of his hacking on things. he said that the weapon by weapon hackers i have performed tasks under supervision of the

officers and in particular the hacking of the international community and the electronic and hacked military in the united states. but he didn't provide proof in support of this confession so some of those in me she was saying she was desperately trying to save himself himself with such publicity. now was he trying to make a deal about his future or is he already made it like many other hackers. there are stories about russian hackers and the stories will be in my book.

the hackers are similar to spy novels about russian hackers activities against russian government. thank you. [applause] >> thank you so much this was a fascinating window into that world. i'm sure that members of our audience have lots of questions. i want to ask you a couple questions. for one thing, i'm wondering, you made a distinction between the professional selection of hackers and hackers who work with the criminal selections. is there a link between these two worlds or are they completely separate? how does it all mix or interact? >> i don't separate these. it is one world. professional selection and criminal selection are the guys

who, some of the guys, professional selection are working with government. >> what are the chances? you alluded to it a little bit but that it is likely that cyber weapons will go out of control in the future but what i'm wondering is as it happens, do we know about it and what is the likelihood that the very people who are trained to work on behalf of the russian government could turn against it and use the tools that they learn their to go the other direction? >> in russia we have a story for hackers against russian government and i think someone in this auditorium hears about [inaudible], a group of hackers packed russian politicals russian demonstrations around three years but now they are all

in jail. in the other stories pressure and in russia hacker communities it is they have a rule to work in the [inaudible] and because if you worked in russia you will and jill that you will be discovered? okay. interesting. >> because in russia a lot of people [inaudible] political departments there really good in social hackers. they want to find these hackers.

you. >> okay. let's turn to the audience for some questions. see there's a question right there. hold on right there. waiting for the microphone. >> hello. over the last couple of months there was some discussion about [inaudible] and other commercially available software that was used to introduce vulnerabilities into the systems that were using that software and you have information on that. >> i know that, i don't ever investigate this but i know that has a lot of but i know that he

has a lot of their working in [inaudible] and they have the possibility to make some decisions in this company. yet. >> please, right there. >> thank you. might, u.s. senate staff. i wonder if you could talk about probably one of the more well-known attacks against russia which was [inaudible] personal account and they also got [inaudible] if i am not mistaken. is there anything known about who might have done that and obviously it had example of real word affects where that played

into the opposition, mobilization and protest against the government? thank you. >> yes, you say in 2011? [inaudible] >> [inaudible] >> yes, yes. we had different accounts hacked by [inaudible]. you say once a question is about hackers operate with oppositio oppositions? >> [inaudible]

>> yeah, there is some groups i think some of the groups was working in the government have tasks from administrations deep in russia like [inaudible] and in russian administration fee is that he is the main and he some investigations told that he was

a man who made these decisions to have oppositions like some other guys in russia. you know the hackers name who hacked in question and his name was [inaudible]. i think he is now in jail in germany. >> i will build up on that question. i think, if i understand correctly, the video that you are referring to of when his people said the drum to look over the state and all that that is not hacking but their

research is not based on hacking but based on simply journalistic forensic research of the records of sorry, [inaudible] that were available but i am wondering are there, i don't know, hackers who work specifically with those who work in the position? >> may be. but no. >> okay, we have -- >> to clarify -- to you. they also hacked his personal account including the orders he had made for close and sneakers and so on and they were able to cooperate pictures of him public fora wearing those exact items and the addresses for the worship to which is not public information but obtained through hacking. >> sorry, i don't know who. >> okay. let's see. two more questions on that side. let's take those.

>> hello. my name is sarah, graduate senior at georgetown. my question may seem basic but you did say that if you hack in russia you will either join the government or go to jail. do you find that the hackers that are sent to jail just like the adage that there is no such thing as a drug-free person and there's no such thing as a prison with no hackers do you think it's an effective solution to jail hackers and does it have any real impact on their impact on their goals -- doesn't make sense or their projects? and on the impact of curbing the hacking situation? >> this is a big question of how jail and people don't know.

yet, in russia we have a lot of stories of hackers go into jail and we have a lot of stories where they don't publish the stories and the hackers are working on security because they want want to go to jail. >> because they want to or because they -- don't want to . . . . . . . . so they'll have asked? >> no. >> okay. right there in the back we have two questions. >> thank you. good morning. could you clarify, please, when the government to reach the hackers is his covenant couple

different dates and authorities and i know this will be a tough one but could you give us an estimate of how many -- since that date you decided how many hackers and who they primary targets are. thank you. >> yeah, ten minutes ago i talked about conundrums and as i know three or 400 working around the country and your questions your main targets don't know because like in this american election hacking we can talk your about motivation for these hackers and this is maybe

espionage around every country, every journalist and myself is a target because i know from investigation journalist, experts political people -- >> i'm sorry, when did you say this government recruiting began with intensity? >> began? >> yeah, to get these. >> three years, i think. >> okay. right there, there was one question i promise to take and then we move forward. >> hello. my name is john and you mentioned the criminal and professional checking organizations and how they recorded. are the type of hacking

activities and you may have talked a little about it but i might have missed it but for example are there certain activities more oriented from the criminal base hacking organizations rather than the professional. for example, the criminal base may have been a good type to use present activity to provide plausible deniability were much be harder to trace back to the government then if you are able to trace it back later to a government sponsored type entity. >> i say no. [inaudible] the criminal selection hackers are good and very [inaudible] they need to have a lot of time to explore

and find the ones who built it. >> okay. i think we had right there. >> thank you for your presentation. [inaudible] i have very brief question. my own e-mail was hacked in 2014. could you please explain the organizations because after it was hacked, my e-mails were released to tvs and so probably they were discovered. can you give specific on what ukraine precisely -- today check the ground and then spread it to other countries and cyber burglaries please. thank you very much.

>> [inaudible] >> what kind of an attack? >> no, they just corrected and that i watch the story and it is interesting because we did some project and it was like at the beginning of the revolution but it had nothing to do with this. it was separate project and it was a year before it started and had nothing to do with it but you tried to connect it because the net was behind financial part of our patients and those who organize. >> basically, the broke. >> yes, they broke it and in their understanding it was sales of course but -- thank you.

>> i think it was the russians gone wrong, i think. they hacked a lot of ukrainian journalist and those who were working in if you know [inaudible], he had the intelligence organizations who investigate russian connections. as i know, it was the russian hacking groups but i don't know what is this a defense of minister defense or i don't know

the story. >> i am curious because you talk about these groups receive a team assignment and you will working on russian ukrainian journalist bloggers and you kept disconnect and separate because the more you connect you get information and how does it work? >> all russian these groups there is no one building where they exist. president has told the universities [inaudible] that the hackers who [inaudible] >> so that is the recording picture we saw that they had the

military guys is sitting on th the -- it doesn't work that way? >> no. >> okay. that right there, leading the middle. >> thank you. hello. thank you for your presentation. i have a couple of questions. first, you alluded to especially through criminal agreements there is honestly the question of the legitimacy of these hackers but the most control seems to happen to the point of the gun and in order to do that are there higher ranking fbi officers or hierarchy that you got the sense of who are experts in hacking themselves in order to know what the hackers are doing. how does that supervision happened because to me the sons of even though they're working on the project of hacking for the russian government it they

are very skilled to also create additional insurance from the south, i presume. i don't know if you have a sense of that's or how that works and i am just curious to me. the second is i mostly focusing on russian hackers who are located in russia or all of the world and you got a sense of geographic scope of where they are because you don't have to be in the same room to do the damage or do the work they do. thank you. >> when i say russian hackers i mean the old school where the teaching ukraine and [inaudible]. can you repeat the first question? >> how are they supervised at work?

>> they are the experts. i thank you know that [inaudible] where i don't know how it's -- with. >> whatsit in russian? [speaking in native tongue] >> there are a lot of experts some of these guys of some investigations saying the hackers are as we know working with and his the game is work

and he has big hacking ground from early '90s, i think. then in the middle of previous year he became [inaudible] >> sold the debate the hackers often have was that was that to create a cover-up? >> no. >> okay, so -- >> no, they work in ukraine. >> okay. i think we had a question right there. let's go to those two, or three in a row here. let's go one to the other. >> thank you. [inaudible] i want to come back to the presentation so i have questions established by the

minister of defense and that was advertised as a special department and they received a good technical education in research and defense of national defense and do you say that they possibly may take part in hacking attacks, as well? in the rest of your speech you took about hacking attacks by those who belong to [inaudible] and the question is do you know any facts that it was proved that different cyber attacks or different cyber threats were produced by those who officiate the research credits. thank you. >> it's a difficult because is not really

difficult to prove the attack. it's difficult and here we can only talk about maturation, not facts about tax on cutbacks from ministerial depends. >> what you mean bite -- >> security, some political or hacking some e-mails. >> okay. the lady behind there. ...

but i live in moscow. i will never return. we don't live here, we don't understand anything. this topic is really difficult in russia but the topic is difficult in every country i think. most of the time it is a wait, wait, wait, wait for some guy who took me to tell me that you

need to talk with --. >> i think you would all agree it's a difficult topping -- topic for everyone that will be here about russia and how hard it's is to get an independent journal that you feel it's actually dangerous reporting on this topic? >> no. if you go to chechnya or lgbt topics are dangerous when you have meetings with radical groups but i don't know what they think about this investigation and the response.

there was a guy who called me and said you don't need to investigate. it's the responsibility of the government. >> we have a question right here. if you could wait for the mic. >> hello. thank you for being here. my question is, it seems like it's very polarized in terms of when people think about russia's meddling or suppose that meddling in the election and you write in opposition for a media source. based on that what is your opinion based on evidence of the role? what was the role, the extent of the role of russia meddling in this election from the dnc hacking and the suppose it does

see does see ayaan trump? so what is your opinion of somebody who writes for an opposition source and obviously in russia people who are supporting putin who think it's ridiculous or preposterous. what is your own view of the extent of russia's involvement or meddling? >> thank you. i don't really talk about this because you have your opinion about this and he read a lot of articles about it but what i know and what i investigator for years, we have not a 100% --

[inaudible] but of course russia has an advantage to do this. that's my opinion. >> i will also say and i don't know what you will say about it but we have had the publisher and he probably would have objected that position. in the current russian landscape if you asked them about the position they would say they are not. a question right there. >> hi, jeff vaughn i'm at protective intelligence analysts for stratford. much of the talk has been

>> about russian hackers has been dominated about the election hacking, information warfare, and propaganda, but over the last couple of years we've seen an increasing number of hacks in western europe and ukraine which are remarkably so he fis indicated and someone testing how to cause mass disruption on a kinetic level. last year ukraine got hit by crash override which has an adaptation of the stew tex which disrupted the iran yab program. my sqquestion is while we're seeing these on the surface, is russia also investigating heavily in these cyber ka net ticks to deploy when they feel it's necessary? >> i think yes. >> okay.

that's for that. we now have time for one more question. let's go to this question right here. >> yes, please. >> thank you for your good work, sir. can you clarify because of the science squadrons, are they reporting to the gru or is there a special other defense agency that they're reporting to? >> yeah. it's separate squad drons or science squadron or some other part of minister of defense already separate. >> so they're separate from the gru? >> no, once control have gru, other squadron is working with

other department. so a lot of departments and a lot of squadrons. >> all right. think we've just come to the conclusion of the meeting. i want to thank danielle and we'll all be looking forward your book so much. [ applause ]