texts. i made a reference to this in my talk this morning. for example, uses of new testament language on liberty. americans at this period loved new testament texts that used the word liberty. i mentioned galatians 5:1, stand fast and the crisis will make you free. there are other similar texts. they love to quote this. in my readings, these are more about christian liberty or spiritual liberty than political liberty. it is interesting this debate over if the use of this text was appropriate in the 18th century. there are those that say not so fast, that is not about clinical liberty. disking from loyalist ministers who called out these patriots for their misuse or misappropriation of the language of liberty. there would have been a back- and-forth, is it appropriate to use this language of liberty which is more about spiritual

matters than about political matters in these political pamphlets. the response to hear from patriots is i think god's understanding of liberty is that it will incorporate political liberty even though we might appreciate it more about the spiritual. this is an ongoing debate even at that time. i think a more consequential debate is the one dr. byrd mentioned. how do we deal with romance 28 -- romans. they favor independence. each will call the other side out. you are misinterpreting this text. you think it will help your political cause. there was a lively debate

between loyalists and patriots over what exactly does romans 13, what does that mean? you can understand why that is a lively debate because it goes to the legitimacy of those suggesting we should repel against england -- rebel against england. it is a heated conversation we find. it is over the proper interpretation of scripture. we could be misappropriating to advance a political objective of the moment. >> thank you. what either of you care to elaborate on that?>> i perk up, we're talking about the sounding period here, when someone loses something because of their commitment to follow what the bible says.

you have someone in your hands committed to the scripture. my favorite example is a presbyterian pastor in savannah, called john struble who was a delegate to the first continental congress from georgia. he was is bothered is anybody about the taxes in terms about his authority in the colonies. in 1775 and 76, when he saw the trend was heading towards independence and revolution, rather than just resistance, he said we can't do that as christians. we cannot rise up against the government because of these reasons. i do not think that argument is a lock. i do not know what my position would have been, if i would have been a patriot or a loyalist.

he resigned from the continental congress and became a loyalist. he opposed violent revolution and lost everything he had. he had to live in a swamp in south carolina for a while. he lost his church and property and everything. why? because he was acting in accordance with his conscience and what he saw going on in 1 peter and romans. he is right about that interpretation. that is a good time. you see instances like that where people act according to their conscience, even to the point of great personal loss. i find those examples inspiring. it's like today, a lot of times, at the time of the founding, you have people using the scripture as window dressing. they are not being insincere but they are not paying a price of conscience to fight the

bible for this or that purpose. what that tells us is the bible is the coin of the realm. it is the language everybody knew how to speak.>> part of what is fascinating about this to me, the history of interpretation of scripture, if you think about it, various people across time in various places and positions, over time , read this text so people who do not have much in common meet together across time over romans 13 or some other text. it is fascinating to see how people read it. how they interpret it on their context and situation. in part, it is easy for us to say, of course the loyalists will interpret romans 13 to enforce their position because they are being selfish because

they are trying to find ammunition to support the position. perhaps, we all read from our position in a certain situation. they look at scripture for guidance and they meditate on scripture, not everyone, but a lot of people did. they looked to find where they were in the story. i think it was natural in some cases for people to see their side. it's easy for us to condemn that reading. i think we have to do it as we do any other situation in history, we have to look at it from their point of view and think about it. it is fascinating to see the other side of the same text and how others can read the same text. sometimes both arguments seem pretty good. i think this is where the

bible's history and the history of the interpretation of the bible gives so much to us. in part, it gives us insight into the people we are studying. i don't know how many times i would be reading, i knew a little bit about the bible, i would read a primary or secondary source, a historian's take on something, there were biblically -- biblical references that historians did not recognize. this is an interesting insight. maybe it was genesis. i think it gives us insight into the people we are studying because it was important and a part of their lives. it gives us insight into just the scripture and how deep the text can be and how multifaceted . >> very interesting. this question is addressed to all speakers. please reflect on religion and masonry and of the founders including franklin, george washington, and other founders. >> i get asked this a lot.

ben franklin was a freemason. many of the major founders were freemasons. that has remained a controversial subject through present day. i think for franklin, his membership in the masons was significant. he does not talk about it a lot. some people would say it is because it was a secret society and you are not supposed to talk about it. i don't get the sense that for most of his life, it was not a central issue for him. i don't think that masons in the mid-1700s were quite as controversial. it became later on in american history. they were minimal. it fits along with franklin's

overall support. they were minimally doctrinal and focused on service and benevolence. it is the epitome of the religion of the enlightenment. it's men fellow shipping over issues of how to do the most good in society. it was also a social plug for them. this is the great era of the social clubs. and coffeehouses and taverns and sociability. when franklin went to france, he connected with masons there. for a short time, he and voltaire were the same members of the lodge. they had the same connections. i see it as being representative of a time of fairly elite and

social clubs that had religious overtones. they don't argue about doctrine. >> i think that is well stated. i don't have anything to add. >> dr. kidd, this question is for you, can you give examples of how the bible influenced franklin's writing? >> i mainly cited episodes where it would show up, filters the bible. you were talking about the bible showing up and not even knowing. i have to admit that happened to me a few times with franklin. it was omnipresent, i would either not notice even though i tried to read the bible every day as a believer. there were things going over my head. one of my favorite examples is

a passage that franklin cited in his pamphlet, plain truth which is one of the very first political pamphlets in american history. i think it was 1750s. it's about the pennsylvania militia and the quakers. it's not important to get into the details, he is pushing for raising a pennsylvania militia. one of the arguments he makes is based on, the expedition of the daanites in judges 15. >> i had to remind myself of this. without going into the details, it was the basic point of not being prepared and being deceived. some of these themes. he thought it was like thomas

paine -- payne and common sense. franklin was thinking the people in philadelphia will instantly see the relevance of judges 18 because they know it and understand the point he is trying to make. i thought this is a lost world of biblical literacy that i don't even have. even as someone who tries to go to church and stay up with the bible and so forth. they are so biblically literate, it goes over your head sometimes. that only tells you again how literate franklin is in the stricture -- scripture. it also shows more importantly, how literate the culture is. it is true in philadelphia and boston and parts of the south.>> we have a few seconds left,

would anyone like to make a closing remark or comment about today? >> i will add to what was just said. let's not forget this was a literate culture quite apart from biblical literacy. one of the reasons why it was such a literate culture was because they read the bible. it was an ideal tool for teaching literacy. it was profoundly useful in literacy education. this would be a generation raised learning how to read with a bible in front of them. that's why they would have known so much about these stories from scripture.>> thank you very much. please join me in thanking dr. kidd , dr. kidd, and dr. dreisbach. outstanding job. thank you. we have a few remarks. we will release our speakers to go sit at their table for book

signings. thank you, gentlemen. we have there books for sale at the back of the room if you would like to purchase them. right now i woul c-span, where history unfolds daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies. today, we continue to bring you unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court and public policy events in washington, d.c. and around the country. c-span is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. coming up on c-span3's "american history tv." we continue our look at the bible and the founding of

america. up next, baylor university professor thomas kidd talks about benjamin franklin's faith and the role it played in his life. c-span's "washington journal" live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. coming up friday morning, the goldwater institutes starly coleman discusses right to try medications that would allow terminally ill patients to receive medications not approved by the fda. heartland president and ceo talks about cpac tax reform, climate and energy policy and drug availability. and vice president of the national education association becky pringle on the recent school shooting and president trump's proposal to arm teachers and school