earlier today members of congress took part in a ceremony honoring the late reverend billy graham. we will show you that ceremony tonight starting at 8:00 eastern on on companion network c-span. reverend graham now lies in honor in the u.s. capitol rotunda. it will be open to our cameras at about 1:00 eastern. before we take you there live a look at the reverend graham's impact on u.s. society. >> tony perkins is back at our desk, president of the family research council, he joins us on a day that the reverend billy graham lies in honor at the u.s. capitol. we've been talking with our viewers this morning about the legacy of billy graham. how would you describe it? >> you know, obviously he is one of a kind in terms of the impact that he had not only on this country but literally around the globe. you know, you sometimes ask does time make a man the times in which he lives or does the man make the times. i think it's a combination of bill kree graham.

he came on the scene at that time when the world was looking for solutions, he was able to preach the gospel. in many ways he mainstreamed evangelicallism in this country and the foundation of what you see going forward even today. he leaves a lasting legacy. i would say it's probably most profoundly seen -- and i would say this of anybody, especially in your family, when you look at his children, i know franklin is a good friend, ann graham lots is a good friend and they continue the ministry of their father and building upon his legacy. >> did you know billy graham personally? >> i did not get to know billy personally because he was kind of going into retirement off the scene as i came on to the scene, but franklin is a very close friend as well as ann. so i know them very well and see a lot of the characteristics of their father and have talked to them many times about him. >> you wrote recently that billy graham helped lay the foundation for the religious right.

explain that. >> well, again, i think he brought mainstream evangelicallism in this country at a time when the country was looking for answers you go back to the 1950s, the cold war, you know, that's when he really came on to the scene strong, preaching a gospel message and from that you saw other ministries come forth that have literally touched the world but in particular in my world you've seen the engagement more of evangelicals in the political process which in this past election we saw a very significant participation of evangelicals. >> is that what billy graham wanted do you think? >> i think billy graham was about preaching the gospel and paul in the gospel says the body is many members, one body but many members and i think one body has a role to play and i think that he played a very significant role in bringing evangelicalism to the mainstream in american life and making it i

think more accessible to people to live out their faith and that's what he did. he wanted to live out that i saw faith and that's what people are doing today. of course, the times are different. i had that conversation one time with franklin, i asked him, you know, your father didn't speak out on issues as much as you do. i said, you know, why is that? he said it was a different time. he didn't need to. if you look back in the 1950s when, again, he was coming on to the scene and his ministry was growing, that's the same decade in which i think in 1954 when we changed our -- the pledge of allegiance to include one nation under god. 1956 is when we adopted the motto in god we trust. so there was -- the times were different. we see now where there is a movement in our public life away from religion which i think requires people to speak out more openly. >> what's the example of that that you would point to, the movement away from religion in our public life. >> i think when you see school

children, no longer able to pray in school, a nonsectarian prayer, even, say, the pledge where we see the motto in god we trust, we just had a school that had a poster in god we trust that was taken down because an atheist organization filed a complaint. so, i mean, there is in movement away in our public life. >> we had a caller on our first segment say he is a teacher, children can still pray in school it's just not teacher led prayer. >> i authored when i was in office i authored the statue that is still there, a moment of silent prayer where we are not forcing anybody to pray but kids that want to pray can and acceptable, but when you are even talking about our nation's motto in god we trust that that becomes controversial and when that's taken off the walls of our schools, especially at a time when the schools have become one of the most dangerous places in the country where we have last -- not quite 20 years. we have had almost two dozen

shootings in those schools. so i do think it's a different time. i think there is a movement away from faith, collectively as a culture, compared to when billy graham was on the scene. >> we invite viewers to join our conversation, phone lines split regional regionally, eastern 202-748-8 o 001. mountain or pacific 202-74 202-748-8000. tony perkins, we've talked with viewers this morning about who takes up the mantle from billy graham. what do you think? >> it's a good question. i think just like today you compare let's talk about television and billy graham's day when you had three major networks. today who knows how many you have got through cable. i think we're living in a different time in which there's not going to be one billy graham. i think you see a number of

evangelists who are out there preaching. greg laurie is having crew sides, franklin is having crew said but i don't think anyone holds that one particular spot and i don't think we should be looking for one particular person to replace billy graham. i think a lot of people have come in his wake to do different aspects of ministry. >> billy graham was called the last bipartisan evangelical leader. are you concerned that evangelicals have become too tied to the republican party? >> well, i mean, do i think our cultur culture, our country is polarized? i do. i think that there's clear lines than drawn. again, i think to compare billy graham and how he operated so today's standard is different. when you go back to, again, 1950s when as a nation we embraced under god in our

pledge, we embraced the full congress, embraced the motto in god we trust. we are not there today. i don't think we can get that passed today. i think you would find a partisan split even on an issue such as that. >> but in terms of where we are today is that a good thing? >> i don't think it's a good thing, but what i'm saying is i don't think that the evangelicals have chosen that. i think they've gravitated toward a party that is more receptive in embracing of the values that they represent. i mean, you go back to the 2012 convention of the democratic party that was in north carolina when essentially god was rejected in their platform. so there has become an increasing hostility and a difference, maybe not -- certainly not everybody is hostile in the democratic party but there's certainly an indifference to religion in the public square. >> is the republican party under president trump represent the

values that evangelicals live by. >> i would say the policies. the policies of this administration that are most clearly represented in the party platform, which this president has embraced and is carrying out. so i would say the policies that we see from this administration reflect that. >> why be so clear about separating the policies from the man? >> ultimately that's what this election was about. evangelicals did not support donald trump based upon his personality, this election went from being a personality driven election to a policy driven election. in fact, exit polling showed that 59% of pence/trump voters voted for them based on the party platform on religious freedom and life. the president was successful in turning this to a policy election, he is maintaining his support by advancing those policies. >> i will let you chat with callers. george is in ft. meade, maryland. good morning. >> caller: good morning. let me talk about republicans

and democrats here. republicans and democrats whether they voted for trump or not or backed president trump or not is irrelevant. i think and feel honestly that religion, yes, we should allow people to practice their freedom of religion because that's what we in the united states honor, okay, and i don't think people need god in religion to make an educated decision. if you are an educated individual you think logically with reason, you can pretty much decide on any subject whether or not to go one way or the other and if it's the best way for your direction. religion should stay out of politics, i think the two things should be completely separate and i think that if people just trust in their selves and their logic reason and their ways to deduct problems -- or to think about problems, i'm sorry, i'm driving here -- they'll come to the right decisions for any subject in the best interest of both themselves and this country. >> george, i will let you get

back to driving. >> and keep your eyes on the road, george. from a christian perspective what evangelicals in particular are looking for, it's kind of what george said is the ability to make decisions and one who is an evangelical has what is described as a biblical world view. they view the world around them based upon the lenses of scripture and they make their decisions based on that. so you cannot have this dichotomous view of life where you have to draw this law of separation between if i'm going to be involved in politics i have to leave my religion at the door. so that's what -- you know, i think to be very clear here, evangelicals, christians, are not looking to impose their religious views on anyone, they're looking to be able to bring their views to the table when they make a decision. why is this someone who believes the bible wants to live according to the teachings of jesus christ, why are they somehow preempted from doing that when someone who wants to

live according to, you know, aen ancient philosophy or german philosopher can do that, but one who believes the bible cannot. we are just saying, look, we should be able to operate our business, we should be able to teach our children, we should be able to believe as the scripture teaches. >> do you talk to president trump? >> i do. >> what policy would you bring to his table today? >> well, i would just encourage him to continue as he has been systematically carrying forward religious freedom, he has in the process i would say of restoring religious freedom, the executive order in may of last year that instructed agencies of the department of justice to make sure agencies were respecting religious freedom. certainly on the pro life front he has been doing a great job, his judicial picks in terms of those who are strict construction niss simply looking at the constitution have been great. i would just encourage him to

continue. >> is there any area where you wish he would do more right now? >> i think that, you know, one of the areas that we have found to be quite significant in government and there's some clear comparisons here, personnel. government is made up of people and i think the department of health and human services he has picked some great people. that department which has long been a problem for people of faith has turned around and i think there's other areas that that needs to be done. there's still a lot of concerns in the department of defense. we still see military personnel who are not free to live out their faith in an open way. so i think those are corrections that he wants to make, maybe he is making, i would just encourage him to do more. >> do you think transgender troops should be allowed to serve in the military? >> i do not. i've been very clear on that because i think that it is an issue -- it really strikes on

two issues. one is the readiness of our troops, i mean, the evidence is clear on that, the reports show that many of those are not deployable because of the surgeries or the hormone treatments that they are taking. but more than that we've already seen that there becomes a conflict with religious freedom where those that have views that are differing of that are being penalized for not kind of getting in line with that view and that's where it crosses over, especially in the area we've seen of same-sex marriage. we've seen officers that have been penalized just because they wouldn't embrace it, not because they spoke out against it, but simply they wouldn't embrace it. >> kendall county, illinois, steve is waiting. good morning. >> caller: good morning, everybody. i just would like to talk a little bit about the hypocritical oaths that these christians, supposed christians, hold in this world. [ inaudible ] -- a total

[ inaudible ] -- he would have loved trump. he cheated on my mom, he was a fraud, too, he was basically a little demon just like trump -- >> steve, what's your question? you're going in and out a little bit. >> caller: okay. my question is that billy graham and folks like billy graham led [ inaudible ] astray -- >> steve, you're going in and out. tony perkins, did you -- >> i couldn't. >> we will go to anthony in spartanburg. >> i took it that he wasn't a big fan of billy graham. >> anthony, spartanburg, south carolina. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i just wanted to voice my opinion about billy graham and franklin graham. i heard them speak at a revival in the rain billy graham was preaching at. he preached love and non-judgment. franklin graham preaches hate and judgment and mr. perkins sits up there and places judgment on everybody. and that is a sad day for

franklin graham to do that to his daddy and that's just my opinion. thank you. >> perkins. >> well, you know, i would take issue with the caller. i don't think franklin graham preaches against anyone, i think he preaches the same message. i think that the receptivity to that message -- when you say that when billy graham would preach that we are all sinners and we need the grace that is extended by god through his son jesus christ, that is an offensive message today because that suggests that shower not going to make it on our own. franklin continues to preach that message. same message that we embrace as we embrace the gospel. again, we look at the times in which we live where a larger segment of society has rejected those biblical moral standards. so when you hold up those moral standards -- and as christians we don't have the luxury of picking and choosing what we want to believe out of scripture. if you're going to be -- you're

truly going to follow jesus christ then you have to -- you have to follow him. he makes some very exclusive statements. he said, i'm the way, the truth and the life. no man comes to the father but by me. that's offensive to some because that says that muslims or others who do not believe jesus as the son of god, according to the teachings of jesus will not go to heaven. so that's jesus' statements not mine. the same thing about marriage in matthew 19 jesus says have you not read from the beginning that god created a male and female for that reason a man will leave his mother and father and cling to his wife. that's not my view, that's jesus' view. that's not franklin's view that's jesus' teaching. if we're going to be faithful to him we have to embrace all of his teachings. >> in terms of when this became offensive in public discourse, when do you think that happened? had as it always been that way? >> no, i don't think it's always -- well, there's always been some element of that. i do think that there has been a coarse thing of our civil

discussion in the last decade. i've seen it, i was in office in louisiana when the vast majority of elected officials were democrat. i was, you know, in the minority. steve scalise, the majority wip and i was elected the same time, we served together. we sat down with democrats, republicans, we talked. that's not the same even in louisiana today. the republicans are in the majority, but there is not that bipartisan approach on many issues. >> who is to blame? what's to blame for that? >> you know, i don't know. i don't know what -- i would say it's a part of the growing divide in our culture. i clearly would not say -- i know someone suggests that's just because we're holding up a standard of morality. no, i don't think that's it. i think that there has been a drift away from biblical truth from a recognition that we are a united as one nation when we are under god. i think it's all the more reason that we need to continue to have

the discussion to -- for those that preach the word of god to continue to preach it. >> laura is in alton bay, new hampshire. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i just came from north carolina yesterday and the sentiment was the billy graham museum, my kids are ready to go to work this week and of course there's going to be a lot of rerouting around the services that are happening and in the grocery store on everybody's mind in billy graham and one young boy was not a believer and that's his prerogative and i think we've lost the fact that we are allowed to have our own voice, our own opinion and that the lord gave us free will and whether folks believe in the lord or not, you know, let those that hear -- let those that have ears hear, let those that have eyes see. if you are not a believer you are not going to get it.

you are not going to love billy graham. he didn't get to you. he didn't live long enough. but i think the next question that you kept asking all morning was who is the next person. who is the next evangelicalist. we could all name off our favorite ones and one by one they are not going to be perfect and they have all made mistakes. you know, kenneth copeland bought a fleet of billy graham's planes and he catapulted a lot of them. were they perfect? did they let him down? there was only one man that walked on this earth, we believe, as christians and that was jesus. so i just think we need to remember that, you know, we are all entitled to our opinions and i think that the next evangelicalist is all of us. that every day americans still show kindness. i dropped a nickel on the floor and a black lady picked it up

and that's what this world is about and that's what our country is about. we're just trying to protect the right to be able to worship the way we want and everybody doesn't have to believe like i do or like you do, but we all should be able to sit down. my father worked in the paper hills and they all sat together for lunchtime. they all joked about what nationality they were and what foods were around the table and that's what this country was founded on is allowing for each other, but within the guidelines of allowing for our freedoms as our fore founders went so tirelessly and prayed for and fasted for, because this country is one nation under god. >> i would just say well said. i do believe that her point that i think billy graham when you look at the lives that he changed, the millions of people that heard the gospel as a result of him, that all of us

have our part to play. i borrow from paul in the new testament, that is, one body as believers we are one in christ, but we are many members. we all have a different role to play and i think each of us hav. we each have a role, whether in education, entertainment, or government. whether we are preachers in the minute strir ministry, we have a role to play. >> in west hills california, good morning. >> good morning. i was ten or 11 years old when my mom was in west point and served billy graham dinner because she was there at west point. and we were in mississippi and she told me about billy graham and meeting him. i remember watching the crusade on tv. we were young. back in the '50s because remember rock and roll came out at that time and billy graham

was big. and it washed the rock and roll and preaching about the gospel. later on in life back in the early '70s, late '70s, i heard jimmy swaggers t and i went to his crusades. i got saved. it what h a balance in our world. i grew up when there was prayer in the school. everyday, that's how we started out our school year. and back in the '60s, i graduated 1963. shortly after prayers came out of the school and then you started having problems in the school. i think if they bring prayer back into the school, there will be more peace and not as much killing. kids would know the truth and they would know that there's something better than bad. and something better than evil

and it would balance it out. i just thank god for the fact that billy graham, i used to watch the huge crusades with thousands of people and so that was a good time in life. that's when america was really great. >> i remember as a kid as well, listening to billy graham and his program on sunday nights, t "the hour of decision." i think it is a different time. i think she makes an excellent point when our schools today are having active shooter drills. you go back to the 1950s from what we talked about earlier, they had the duck and cover drills. before my time and your time. my parents told me they were afraid of the russians dropping a nuclear bomb on us. that was the motivation for

pursuing the statement under god in our pledge. and eisenhower went to a church service in washington and the preacher preached on the pledge. he compared our pledge to the russians and the fact we needed some distinction that we were a nation under god. three days later eisenhower had it introduced into the congress and on flag day signed if into law. every morning our kids declare that we are a nation under god. there were threats and we needed god. something we needed that would bridge what we were able to do. today, our threats you can say they are external but more they are internal. and i do believe the freedom to recognize that we need god in our public life again, can bring us together. >> you said you talked with president trump and you do talk with him. do you pray with him?

>> i have, yes. >> how have you seen his faith grow over the course of his presidency? >> i believe he became more comfortable with that aspect and i think he is growing in that. i think he has an appreciation for evangelicals and he is transactional. he understands they were a major factor in his success in winning the election. but i think he is -- you know, he's grown to understand why we believe what we believe and why we think it is important. and as a logical standpoint t makes sense. strong fam i wills are good. when kids grow up with a mom and dad and have opportunities in the environment around them, it's a positive outcome for all of society. i think the tax cuts and some of ft stuff vie viv anka is doing uplift families.

this is why he has a good relationship. it's not about power. we're not challenging him for power. we want to see the policy that is create an environment to allow our families to prosper and as a result societies prosper. >> do you see him has a man of moral character? >> there's no question that the president and his past behavior was a significant issue for evangelicals and blocking support for him. i was not with him in the primary -- >> who were you with? >> i came out in campaign for ted cruz. i had a share value set and he was a friend. there were a lot of choices and it was difficult and i thought ted could go the distance and he went longer than anybody else next to donald trump. i don't think i would not endorse donald trump, i would vote for him because hillary's policies were -- i never thought i would endorse him.

so we laid out criteria required to gain our support. commitment to pro-life judges. a solid running mate with a track record. and i was on the party platform and wed a conservative one up to this point. every other president and campaign i have have been involved with back in 2004, he met all three. put out a list, no republican nominee never used the term pro-life. and he picked mike pence who i've known since a radio talk show host. they helped us instead of oppose us, the campaign, giving us the most conservative platform in party history. what can i say? at that point he met the standard and i endorsed him at the convention and i have not been disappointed. he followed through on the commitments he made.

>> time for one or two more phone calls. george is in sterling virginia. good morning. >> good morning. i have a comment about billy graham and a question for the guest. i'm well in my 60s and i remember billy graham as a child. i lost my faith in vietnam. billy graham to me represented more than evangelical. he represented the truth and represented a faith that believes in tolerance. one thing that ien don't believe his son is actually pushing. my second comment, my second comment is a question for your guest. sir, have you been in combat? >> no. i severed in the marine core and been a police officer and have seen violence on our streets. but i did not serve during a time of combat but i severed in the 1980s.

>> george, did you have a follow up to that? >> i'm sorry. >> did you have a follow up question -- >> yes a comment about what he said about gays and transgenders in combat. i guarantee you don't care what is the sexual orientation who is the guy next to you who is saving your life by firing on the enemy. that's my comment. >> there are many military leaders who would take issue with that. but i will leave that there. >> from idaho, good morning. >> i would like to call as a catholic christian. one thing that concerned me from a prior phone call. the man who made a derogatory comment about the jewish people.

we have nothing against jews and muslims and jesus did not teach that muslims would go to hell. he taught that according to the light that we have, we will be judged. not according to whether we are muslims or hindus or buddhist and i do think if people would take the time to read and listen to pope francis, he might be considered the next nonpolitical religious leader for the entire world. including america. and he teaches what jesus taught. love god, love your neighbor, treat others as you would like to be treated, and do not judge. that what we have a difference of opinion, we can still treat each other with respect, pray for each other and i do believe that was billy graham's basic message and i do think his death

is a loss for the entire world. but i just wanted to say you know, as catholics, if we're truly following scripture, we will see that we are to love others and help them to know about christ. and i think that's what billy graham tried to do. so god bless everybody and let's pray for each other. thank you. >> tony perkins, the last minute or so. >> 99 years is a legacy. and i think again going back to what we started with. a legacy is determined not what is behind you but what is before you. what billy graham did is laid a foundation for evangelicals in this country to be mainstream in sharing their faith and living out their faith. i do think his son is a clear

reflection of billy graham and his daughter. many of the grandchildren continue consistently in the faith. and i think as a father, nothing is most important than see your children follow in the teachings and carrying forth the ministry. and franklin remains true to the message that billy graham preached which was a biblical message. jesus is the way, the truth and the life. i for one, it is, it is is aed to see billy graham pass because it is an era. 99 years is a long time and represents a lot of what happened here in america. the future is one of the callers said earlier t. is up to us to live out the faith and that's what evangelicals are doing. the ability to live their lives, teach their children and see them carry on the faith we have in jesus christ. >>