[chatter] >> on history bookshelf, hear from the country's best-known history writers of the past decade every saturday at 4:00 p.m. eastern. you can watch any of our programs anytime when you visit our website, c-span.org/history. you are watching american history tv, all we can, every weekend on c-span3. >> up next on american history tv, baylor university history professor thomas kidd talks about benjamin franklin's religious faith, and reads from his writings on the subject. this was part of a symposium on the museum and the bible in washington dc. it is about 45. >> good morning everyone and

welcome to the museum of the bible. i am the director of museum education. we are delighted you have joined us for our february speaker series program titled "the bible and america's founders." our program consists of three sessions, followed by a roundtable discussion later on this afternoon. following the discussion, we will have a book signing with our speakers. ouruseum of the bible, mission is to engage people with the bible. the bible has made an impact on world history and culture. it has influenced nations, laws, and political structures, guided debates, shapes pivotal events, and inspired views of prominent individuals both past and present.

individuals both past and present. the bible is hidden in plain sight in everyday life, from common expressions we only use, expressions we only use, to art and literature. we will expand on themes as how our american colonies, asnders turned to the bible inspiration for their political actions. we have three prominent scholars with us as inspiration for their political actions. we have three prominent scholars with us today. they will talk with us about how the bible and list the founding generation. -- influenced the founding generation. our first discussion is the franklin'senjamin faced with thomas kidd. benjamin franklin wrote became a deist as a young man, yet proposed the delegates opened sessions with prayer. mr. kidd will explore the tension between franklin's faith along with his skepticism and his puritan upbringing on his familiarity with the bible. thomas kidd is a professor at

baylor university and associate director for the institute of studies for religion. please join me in welcoming dr. kidd. >> [applause] dr. kidd: thank you to kay, and thank you to museum of the bible for hosting this event. it is a pleasure to be here at theit is a pleasure to be here t the museum. this is the section on bible in america. it is a wonderful thing to see this lovely facility. thank you for having us. you too those joining us online or on you too those joins online or on tv. it is great to be here. i want to talk to you today about the enigma of ben franklin's faith, and to open with a story of something that happened additional convention.

in 1787 at the constitutional convention, time dragged as delegates bickered about representation in congress. james madison insisted states with more people should possess more power. knew that under the article of confederation, america's as the government, all states had equal authority regardless of population. why should the small states give a newer under constitution? the country would continue to inefficienter the article of government. nation new american might have disintegrated. this moment, the nation might have disintegrated.

octogenarian ben franklin took the floor. he asked delegates to open octogenarian bensessions with prayer. as they were "groping int he dark to find political truth," "how do we not think once to apply to the father of lights the eliminating of our understandings -- illum inating of our understandings?" this man who called himself a deist now insisted that delegates should ask god for wisdom. this was strange because classic inating of our deists did not believe god intervened in human affairs. even more strange, he was one of the few delegates at thought opening with prayer was a good idea. his motion was tabled. what kind of deist was this

elderly man calling on america's greatest political minds to humble themselves before god? his work at the constitutional convention was the culmination of his spectacular career. he and george washington, who was 26 years his junior, were not the architects of the constitution. that role fell to james madison and alexander hamilton and others. george washington and benjamin franklin were the two most famous americans in 1787. delegates looked at franklin with respect and awe. there was little doubt that the imposing washington would become president of the convention. if there was any competitor for chair, it was the venerable franklin. the very heavens obey him, one georgia delegate noted. franklin had planned to nominate

washington as chair himself, if a storm had not kept him home the day of the meeting. the son of boston puritans had come a long way. in late spring of 1787, he exchanged letters with his beloved sister jane, who was an evangelical christian and the sibling who maintained the longest correspondence with and the deepest influence on franklin. they reminisced about their humble beginnings as the children of a candle maker. she had remained a person of humble means and relative anonymity while her brothers fame skyrocketed. ben told her that the course of his life filled him with wonder and fills me with humble thankfulness to that divine being who has graciously conducted my steps, and prospered me in this strange

land to a degree i could not rationally have expected and it and fills me with humble can by no means concede myself to have merited. i begged the continuance of his favor. chronic sickness made it difficult for franklin to stand and speak at the convention. he offered occasional comments, seeking to steer the delegates toward a successful conclusion. early on, he also made a speech speech arguing against paying a salary to the president or to other members of the executive branch. he based this argument on his dim view of human nature and of politician's temptation to personal aggrandizement. "there are two passions in the affairs of men. these are ambition and avarice,

the love of power and the love of money. placed before the eyes of such men that shall at the same time be a place of profit, they will move heaven and earth to obtain it." such corruption had ruined british politics, and he wished to uncouple america's government from the profit motive. citing exodus 18:21, the best rulers were men hating covetousness. if you turn politics into an avenue for personal gain, only the most bold and violent men will want to enter. he cited examples of offices in which people served for little or no money. the arbiters of quaker meetings heard disputes would have otherwise gone to secular courts. these duties were tedious, but quaker leaders perform them for

no compensation. he also pointed to the virtuous washington, who took no salary as the general of the continental army. he did submit expenses. the convention declined to adopt his proposal. he was participating in a bigger he was participating in a bigger conversation that ran through the constitutional debates. what kind of government could best account for the dangers inherent in human nature? although americans disagreed on the answer, they did not dispute the premise. men were not angels, as madison in in federalist 51. they could not be trusted with unchecked power. franklin joined a more controversial debate at the convention with his proposal for prayer on june 28, 1787. he had lived a long time, he reminded delegates ,and he had

become more certain that god oversaw human affairs. franklin was convinced providence had shepherded americans through the revolutionary crisis. it was foolish not to call on god again. he reminded them of the early days of the war, when the patriots prayed, often in that same room, for god's help. at its best, faith inculcated public spiritedness and it suffocated selfishness. god let them to a point where they could frame the best possible government. have we now forgotten that powerful friend, he asked? saidg psalm 27, franklin except the lord build the house, they labor in vain that build. he said, i firmly believe this, and without his concurring aid,

we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of babel. prideful strife would confound their work and turn their proceedings into a farce. this was the most remarkable religious episode of ben franklin's life. it was stunning. not just because of the stage on which he was proposing prayer. franklin, as i suggested before, was alone among the delegates in wishing to bring prayer into the convention's proceedings. connecticut's roger sherman, one of the most about christians in attendance, seconded the motion. virginia's edmund randolph proposed that they hire a pastor to preach on independence day less than a week later. that minister could open subsequent meetings with prayer. beyond these three men,

delegates seemed uninterested in arranging for prayer. someone pointed out that had not budgeted funds for a chaplain. alexander hamilton, worried calling in a pastor might signal the convention was becoming desperate. he also reportedly questioned the propriety of calling in foreign aid. the motion fizzled. franklin was exasperated. jotting a note at the bottom of his prayer speech, the convention, except three or four persons, thought prayer unnecessary. franklin and the convention that moved on. perhaps his prayer speech reminded delegates of the need for compromise, even if it prompted no formal recourse to god. in an address two days after promoting prayer, franklin explained the tension between

the large and the small states. if representation was in proportion to population, the small states contend their liberties will be in danger. if equality of votes is to be pu t in place, the large states say their money is in danger. both sides were going to have to give up some demands to ensure a successful outcome. drawing on earlier discussions regarding a two house legislature, franklin suggested the convention create a house of representatives with proportional representation and a senate with equal representation between the states. this became the great compromise, arguably the key settlement of the convention. in his final speech before the convention, franklin warned against dogmatism, which might derail the constitution. he saw the species of moralistic

perfectionism both in religion and in politics. most men, as well as most sects in religion, think themselves in possession of all truth, and that wherever others differ from them, it is error. delegates should be willing to support the constitution, he said, even if they did not regard it as perfect. no better frame of government would emerge from additional meetings. sure it was "not not the best they could do" as it currently stood. the framers' enemies wanted to hear that their councils had been confounded like the builders of babel. he returns repeatedly to the story of babel from genesis. the convention needed to present a unified front as it went out for ratification. multiple forms of government

could be working well when overseen by virtuous people. according to an oft repeated story, when someone asked franklin after the convention whether they had created a monarchy or a republic, he replied, a republic, if you can keep it. so to return to our central question of franklin and faith, who was this franklin of philadelphia? what did he believe? in our mind's eye, he seems ingenious, mischievous, and enigmatic. his journalistic, scientific, and political achievements are clear. but what of ben franklin's religion? was franklin defined by his youthful embrace of deism? his longtime friendship with george whitfield, the most influential evangelist of the

18th century? his work with thomas jefferson on the declaration of independence, and his invocations of the creator and nature and nature's god. or his solitary insistence on prayer at the convention. when you add franklin's propensity for joking about serious matters, he becomes even more difficult to pin down. regarding franklin's chameleonlike religion, john adams once remarked "the catholics thought him almost a catholic, the church of england claimed him as one of them, the presbyterians thought him half a presbyterian, and the friends believed him a wet quaker." quakersically means a is not so well behaved.

the key to understanding his ambivalent faith is the contrast between the skepticism of his adult life, and the indelible imprint of his childhood. is not so well behaved. the key to understanding his the intense piety and faith of his parents acted as a tether, restraining franklin's skepticism. as a teenager, he abandoned his parents. beliefs.s puritan that same traditional faith kept him from getting too far away. he would stretch his moral and doctrinal tether to the breaking point. by the end of a youthful sojourn he made to london. when he returned to philadelphia in 1726, he resolved to conform more closely to his parents' ethical code. he steered away from extreme deism. could he craft a christianity

centered on virtue rather than traditional doctrine and avoid alienating his parents at the same time? more importantly, could he convince the evangelical figures in his life, most importantly is --ster and the reviver the revivalist george whitfield that all was well that his soul. he would have more time convincing his sister than convincing george whitfield. when he ran away from boston as a teenager to philadelphia, he also ran awayalso ran away fro's calvinism. but many factors -- his puritan tether, the relationships with christian friends and family, disappointments with his own integrity, repeated illnesses, and the growing weight of political responsibility, all kept him from going too deep

into the dark woods of radical skepticism. franklin explored a number of religious opinions, even at the end of his life. he remained noncommittal about all the viewpoints of belief. this elusive news has made him susceptible to many religious interpretations. some devout christians beginning with the 19th century biographer have found ways to mold him into a faithful believer. franklin's extraordinary benevolence and useful life were combined even unconsciously from the gospel. there is something to this notion of christianity's unconscious affect on franklin. he had to employ him direction because of franklin's repeated

insistence that he doubted key points of christian doctrine. other christian writers could not overlook that. the english minister john foster wrote in 1818 that love of the useful was the cornerstone of franklin's thought and that franklin substantially rejected christianity. one of the most influential interpretations of franklin's religion appeared in the classic study of protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism. franklin was a near perfect example of how protestantism drained of its doctrinal reticular ready fostered modern capitalism. franklin's the way to wealth distilled his best thoughts on frugality and industry

illustrated the spirit of capitalism in near classical purity and simultaneously offers the advantage of being detached from all direct connection to the religious belief. franklin's virtues were no longer a matter of just obeying god, virtue was also useful and profitable. franklin admonished by his strict calvinist father about diligence presented moneymaking and success as products of confidence and proficiency in a vocation. he grew up in an intense calvinist setting, redirected that zeal in a profession, namely printing. there's a lot to recommend in

that portrait. as an adult, franklin touted ethical responsibility, industriousness, benevolence, even as he jettisoned christian orthodoxy. now, many recent scholars of taken franklin at his word by describing him as a deist. he calls himself a deist in his autobiography, that's a decent place to start. others have called him everything from an atheist, which is ridiculous, to a man who believed in the act of god of the israelites and the apostles. deism stands at the center of this continuum between atheism and christian devotion. other than indicating skepticism about traditional doctrine, deism could mean many things in 18th-century europe and america. it can mean many things. the

beliefs of different deists did not always link up. some said they believed in the bible as originally written. others doubted the bible's reliability. some believe god remained involved in life on earth. others saw god as the cosmic watchmaker, winding up the world and letting it go on its own. deism met different things to franklin over his life. -- meant different things to franklin over his life. i am not opposed to calling him a deist. i do so in my book. it does not capture the trajectory of his beliefs. i draw from the analysis of many commentators on his religion. adding to the themes of franklin's skepticism and

ambivalence, my book shows how much is personal experiences shaped his religious beliefs, his personal experiences shaped his religious beliefs. like abraham lincoln, there's an important comparison to be made here. franklin's early exposure to skeptical writings undermined his confidence in christianity. books alone could not erase his childhood immersion in a puritan piety. his ongoing relationships with evangelical christians made it difficult for him to jettison the vocabulary and precepts of traditional faith altogether. although his view of providence vacillated, the weight of the american revolution fostered a renewed belief that history had

a divine purpose. franklin and lincoln, both self educated sons of calvinist parents. those of the bible committed to memory. they gravitated toward a revitalized sense of god's role over history as war and constitutional crises racked america in the 1770's and the 1860's. neither man's believes can escape the influence of their daily relationships and stressful experiences. it is difficult to overstate just how

deep and imprint the bible itself made on franklin's or on lincoln's mind, or in his ways of speaking and writing. you know that many devout christians today are basically unfamiliar with large sections of the bible. they don't know much about current theological debate. franklin knew the bible backwards and forwards. it framed the way that he spoke and thought. biblical phrases that he had learned going to church, to our sermons in puritan churches multiple times a week. they are everywhere in his vast body of writings. it even as he embraced religious doubt, the king james bible colored his

ideas about morality and the purpose of life. it served as his most common source of similes and anecdotes. he even enjoyed preying on ignorance of scripture in order to play jokes. he would show them a passage and say don't you remember this from the book of genesis. he would laugh at them because he knew it wasn't in the book of genesis. he got upset when one of those things got published. if he could not play the joke anymore. he once explained the bible saturated environment in which he grew up in a letter to the reverend samuel cooper of boston. he was arranging for the publication of one of cooper's sermons. franklin needed to annotate the sermon with the local references. this is what he

said, it is not necessary in new england where everybody reads the bible and is acquainted with scripture phrases that you should note the text from which you took them. i have observed in england as well as in france that verses and expressions taken from the sacred writings and not known to be such appear very strange and awkward to some readers. i shall therefore in my addition take the liberty of marking the quoted text in the margin. franklin did not need cooper to insert the bible references because he knew them by heart. as a child of the puritans, franklin immediately recognized bible phrases when he read them. even from obscure sections. him the shadow of scripture loomed over his life.

franklin was a pioneer of a distinct kind of american religion. i'm tempted to call it an early form of what they called sheila-ism. it's the book from 1985. the individual conscience is the standard for religious truth, not any external authority. i think his protege thomas pain be a better choice. in the age of reason, my own mind is my own church. i think franklin was too tethered to external christian ethics and institutions to be a forerunner. instead, he was a pioneer of related kind of faith. that is what i call dr.

oldest moralized christianity. some may debate if this is actually christianity. you can think about this for yourself. he was an experimenter at heart. he tinkered with a novel form of christianity, one where all beliefs became nonessential. the puritans focused too much on doctrine, he thought. he wearied of presbyterians zeal for expelling people and the lack of interest in the mandates of love and charity. for franklin, christianity was a primitive

resource for virtue, but he had no attachment to christianity as a religious system or source of salvation. we cannot know for certain whether doctrines such as god's nature are true, that we do know, franklin said it, that christians are called to benevolence and service. dr. oral strife is undermining virtue and we know that god calls us to do good. if you had not noticed, doctrine list religion is pervasive in america today. we see it most commonly in major media figures of self-help spirituality and success. the late stephen covey, although they differ on specifics, the common message of these authors and their

countless followers is that a life of love, service, significance is the best life of all. god will help you live that kind of life, but your faith should be tolerant and empowering rather than nitpicking. a sociologist at notre dame said these characteristically american beliefs amount to what he calls moralistic therapeutic deism. many of its most prominent exponents live out their faith in particular congregations and traditions. even oprah winfrey has testified in that she is a christian. however, she says i'm

not asking you to be a christian. if you want to be one, i can show you how. it is not required. people may need to believe in doctrines or personal understanding of god. it we may need particular beliefs to enable our best life now, in joel o'steen's phrase. it's a life of good works, resiliency, generosity now. faith helps us to embody discipline and benevolent success in this life. that's what god wants for us. today, it's easy to dismiss this because it's so often peddled by wealthy media superstars. it is america's most common code of spirituality. for franklin and, when you go back to the 18th

century, it was serious intellectual is this. born out of contemporary religious debates and dissatisfaction with his family's puritanism, like many skeptics, franklin was weary of 300 years of fighting over the legacy of the protestant reformation. much of that fighting concerned church authority and particular doctrine. franklin grew up in a world of intractable conflict between catholics and protestants, and within protestant denominations

themselves. what good was christianity if it precipitated pettiness, persecution, and violence. franklin and his cohorts of deists reckoned that in promoting a doctrine less christianity, they were redeeming christianity itself. how successful that effort was, you will have to decide for yourselves. could you really have a nonexclusive minimally doctrine morality centered christianity? franklin, thomas jefferson, many of their friends wanted to give it a try. 13 years after franklin's death, jefferson wrote that he considered himself a christian in the only sense jesus wished anyone to be. he admired jesus's point of view.

to jefferson, jesus was only human. it jesus never claimed to be anything else. christians including the authors of the new and testament books imposed the claims of divinity on him after he and gone to his grave and not risen again. franklin did not go as far as jefferson. franklin preferred not to dogma ties on matters such as divinity. in a classic tension that still marks american religion right now, franklin's devout parents, his sister, george whitfield all found doctrine less christianity to be dangerous. they agreed that morality was essential and it was better not to fight over

minor theological issues. true belief in jesus was necessary for salvation. to the puritans and evangelicals, he was fully god and fully man. doubting that puts your soul in jeopardy. jesus made the way for centers to be saved through his death and resurrection. it wasn't enough to just emulate his life, as important as that was. more than a moral teacher, jesus was lord and savior. honoring christ required belief in doctrinal truth. franklin wasn't sure about that. maybe they had gotten it wrong. perhaps he was the one who is

getting back to the original teachings. he was sure that doing good was the grand point. for most of his life, he had a family and friends who asked him about the state of his beliefs. as i've said among the most consistent of those were his sister and george whitfield. in the last few weeks of his life, one more inquiry came on the stage. franklin had known yellow president ezra stiles ever since yale gave him an honorary master's degree. stiles was a congregationalist minister. he realized that franklin was near death. you have merited and received all of the honors of

the republic of letters and are going to a world where all glories will be lost in the glories of immortality. but he caused. would it be impertinent of him to ask about franklin's belief in christ? as much as i know of him, i have not an idea of his religious sentiments. i wish to know the opinion of my friend concerning jesus of nazareth. he adored franklin. he still west franklin would have clear title to that happy immortality which i believe jesus alone has purchased for the virtuous and truly good of every religious denomination. franklin respected stiles. five weeks before his death, he penned a response. it's precious that we have this. he asked

stiles to keep it confidential. he did not, since we are talking about it here. you desired to know something of my religion. it is the first time i've been questioned upon it. this is simply not true. i don't know why he said that. others have been asking him about it all his life. anyway, he said, i do not take your curiosity in this. here is my creed. i believe in one god, creator of the universe. he governs it by his providence. he ought to be worshiped. the most acceptable service we can render to him is doing good to his other children. the soul of man is immortal and will be treated

with justice in another life, respecting its conduct in this. at the end of his life, franklin was a providential list, a believer in the duties of worship and benevolence, and he expected god would rule in a final judgment. that's pretty good. then he continued. as to jesus of nazareth, my opinion of whom you desire, i think the system of morals in his religion are the best the world will likely see. he still had doubts.

i apprehend christ's teachings have had a corrupting changes. he's not sure that he can trust what the new testament said about jesus's life and teachings. i have some doubts as to his divinity. those a question i do not dogma ties upon. having never studied it. franklin never doubted how admirable christ's moral teachings were. he did not know if he can accept the claims about jesus. franklin thought it needless to busy myself with it now when i expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. there he is joking again. he knows he's going to be dead soon. he is going to find out if he was right or not. he just

wasn't sure if he could no the truth about christ, salvation, he was going to find out soon. in spite of his qualms about traditional christianity, he saw no harm in it being believed. if that believe has the good consequence it probably has of making his doctrines more respected and better observed. you can believe if you want, but for franklin, the point was never just belief but virtuous action. i saw only add that having experienced the goodness of that being and conducting

meet prosperously through life, i have no doubt of the continuance in the next. without the smallest conceit of meriting such goodness, god always been good to him. he saw no reason to think that god's kindness would stop when he died. died he did. on april 17, 1790. he left the enigma of his faith unresolved. in his coat of moralized christianity, he became the founding father of perhaps the most pervasive kind of spirituality in the western world today. thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you, that was wonderful. we will now take a

break. our next session will start promptly at 10:00. thank you. >> tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern on real america, 1968, when an dutch report was released. the commission created by present and in dungeon -- innson on civil disorders several major cities, including los angeles, new york, and detroit. the cbs news special report will air. isin downtown atlanta, there a stream corner where men come , pick up adutch on days work. this is rich, white america. >> move for rent, move

everything. every time i come from a you overcharge me for everything i get. you double charge me. you expect me to get it. that's how you make criminals out of people. you are not going to give them keep thejust enough to meeting. yeah. i-8 breakfast this morning. i don't know where dinner is coming from. how do you think i feel? then you take all this money and go back, send to everybody else and i've been here all my life long and can't make it. real.s man's anguish is his distrust that his distress multiplied by the 50 million -- 15 million knee grows in america.

the real trouble that hold them greatbatch down is trouble. of white americans towards black americans. tonight atal america 10:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv on c-span3. >> c-span, where history unfolds daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies, and today, we continue to bring you fromlter coverage congress, -- unfiltered coverage from congress, the white house, the supreme court, and events in washington dc and washington country. c-span is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. a,sunday on c-span's q and political contributing editor "building a his book

great society: inside lyndon johnson's white house." people who helped create his great society program. >> and administration within the space of 4.5 years, five years, built all these programs after congress signed them into law. medicare and medicaid built from the ground up in one year. how did they create the first program like head start or food stamps, nutritional programs for children? how did they do this while desegregating one third of the country, hospitals, nursing homes, schools, places of public income -- accommodations? so, fighting a war in vietnam. >> q and a sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] next, from the american civil war museums annual symposium, a

person discusses how families cope with divided loyalties between the union and confederacy before, during, and after the civil war. she is the author of "the divided family and civil war america." the library in virginia, richmond, the american civil war easy them, and a virginia center for civil war history -- museum, and a virginia center for virginia birth -- forget the civil war history cohosted this event. >> good afternoon, everyone. thank you so much for joining us for the american civil war symposium. ordinary people, extraordinary times. next up on our roster -- where she received the 2016 great teacher award.