and commerce, lincoln and life, and walter star, author of stanton, lincoln's war secretary. sub'd at 1:00 p.m. eastern, book tv on c-span 2 is live from the new museum of the bible in washington d.c. and impact on government, legal systems, education and human rights, with the museum ease director seth pollen gear. also take your calls during the program. watch this weekend on the c-span networks. >> a senate commerce science and transportation subcommittee held a hearing with state and local officials to talk about transportation, infrastructure, funding and needs.

>> good afternoon. i am pleased to convene the service subcommittee on merchant marine infrastructure safety and security. our hearing today titled rebuilding infrastructure in america, state and local transportation needs, will give us the opportunity to better understand the state of our service transportation infrastructure. many of us hear from our constituents about the poor state of infrastructure in the united states. concerns have been confirmed by numerous studies, including the often cited infrastructure report card from the american society of civil engineers, which gave us u.s. infrastructure a d plus in 2017. researched by the american transportation research institute shows that congestion on our roads cost the trucking industry $63.5 billion in 2015. more broadly, a recent wall

street journal article reported that traffic congestion can cost an american family about $1400 each year. the federal government plays an important role in developing and maintaining a continuous transportation system across the country, which has become the artery of commerce for the united states. however h the system would not work without state and local governments, which do the majority of the work toesign, construct, and main our infrastructure. the administration's recent infrastructure proposal includes a number of important ideas to improve our infrastructure. i'm particularly pleased to see proposals to reform project permitting and streamline what is frequently a burdensome process for state and local governments. according to the congressional research service, major federal highway projects can take as long as 14 years from start to finish.

it took less time to build the panama canal. and we did that more than a century ago. duplicative regulations and red tape increase the time it takes to build infrastructure projects. and time is money. the costs associated with delays weigh heavily on taxpayer resources. frequently with few benefits to show for it. by reducing unnecessary regulations, the administration's proposal would speed up the process for project approval and construction. several provisions of the proposal recognize that states and localities know the needs of their constituents best, and that they should be given greater authority over the design, approval and construction of projects. i was also pleased to see dead cane funding for rural infrastructure, like rural states we have to ensure our transportation systems all across the country are in good

condition. dedicated funding supports these systems, which means nebraskans and the products we make can make it to where they need to go. now that the administration has put forward a proposal, it's time for congress to put pen to paper. i look forward to working with my colleagues, the administration, and all stakeholders and users of our infrastructure system to craft legislation that brings our infrastructure into the 21st century. as we know, there are a lot of ideas out there to address the revenue issue that is surrounding transportation, infrastructure investment. last year, i put forward a proposal that aims to address the funding shortfall and modernize our infrastructure system. my build usa infrastructure act would ensure the solvency of the trust fund for fooive years following the transportation

act. by border control through duties, tariffs and other user fees, my bill utilizes existing funding to support our infrastructure. additionally, states would have more flexibility, in the approval of fra approval of infrastructure projects. under my proposal, states could enter into agreements with the federal highway administration, where they would remit 10% of the federal aid highway dollars in exchange for state purview of design, permitting and construction, a federal aide highway projects. by using the resources that are currently available, more efficiently, we can stretch our current federal aide dollars to improve our improfessor our infrastructure system. we have several witnesses that can speak directly to the states and localities. they represent both those who build our infrastructure and those who rely on its proper

maintenance. i'm pleased that the director of the nebraska department of transportation, kyle knee way is here to provide in sight on nebraska innovative work and transportation policy. have i to cough. because nebraska always had a nebraska department of roads. i look forward to the testimony of our witnesses. and i would now like to invite my colleague senator peters to offer his opening remarks. senator peters. >> well, thank you, chairman fisher, for calling today's hearing. and thank you to our witnesses for joining us to share your thoughts on a very critical issue on how the federal government can help upgrade our nation's crumbling infrastructure. i want to extend a special welcome to dr. dan martin the president and ceo and national league of cities. mr. martin is leader in the fields of urban revitalization, place making, local government

reform and transportation policy and is leading advocate in lansing michigan as well as hooer in washington d.c. for the leagues membership of 520 towns and villages. he lives in de-troy in the historic town of north michigan. so welcome to the hearing today. our state of michigan is under going an industrial renaissance. and is helping the united states maintain its competitive edge by leading in the development of transformative technologies, including self driving vehicles, artificial intelligence, and robotics. billions of dollars are being invested and thousands of jobs in manufacturing, logistics, and transportation are being created that will help support the middle class of america for decades to come. but to prepare for this future, the m itch began department of transportation is working with local governments to rethink their roads, intersections, and ped ran walkways in light of

self driving vehicles, and increased presence of on demand ride sharing networks. as part of u.s. department of transportation's connected vehicle pilot, the state has installed over 100 dedicated short range communication road side units throughout the state for vehicle and infrastructure connectivity. technology that will make driving on our roads expo den shally more safe as well as more efficient. michigan are eager to build a future, but ranked dead last of infrastructure in 27 states. systemic under investment in maintenance and repairs by the federal and state governments have left residents with dangerous pot hold roads, sink holes that swallow houses, and closed beaches. state's 21st infrastructure

commission additional $4 billion would be needed annually just to maintain our current d plus status. michigan's infrastructure challenges are shared by neighbors across the midwest and across the country. and how does president trump suggest that we tach this will challenge? president sent us a proposal that required cash strapped states to simply foot the bill. rather than having the federal government step up as reliable partner, president trump continues the problem by once again passing the buck. i'm very concerned this will result in more local tolls, fair hikes and tax increases, and it's not clear what communities will get in return. i'm also concerned about raising new revenues while smaller rural communities will be left behind. this is very personal to me. my state knows all too well the

devastation that can result when we don't properly invest in our infrastructure. in flint, michigan, the city and the state, wanted to cut costs. they knew the pipes carrying the water was in horrible disrepair, but instead of spending $1 million up front, it was treated as expenditure that needed to be reduced. by switching the city's water source to polluted flint river to save money, there was devastating impact to both children and families. the crisis turned into a $200 million federal problem and became a prime example of the need to invest up front in the ability of cities and states to provide essential services to their residents. we know that flint is unfortunately not alone. there are thousands of communities with led lined pipe and aging infrastructure. all of these communities need a

frong federal budget on the front end not after something terrible has happened. my state of michigan is showing us what a future innovation economy and infrastructure could look like, but the current realities of our roads and prolonged economic recovery shows our progress could be slowed or not shared at all if something akin to president trump's prose proposal is enacted. communities can't do this on their own. i look forward to hearing from all of you today how congress can work in a bipartisan fashion to make the right investments right now. so that we can be a partner to our cities and states who desperately need a partnership. thank you. >> thank you, senator peters. at this time i'd like to introduce each member of the panel. and after my introduction for you, if you could give your opening statement, and try to

limit it to about five minutes. we can, of course, include the entire statement in the record. first, i'm very pleased to introduce kyle knee way who is the director of the nebraska department of transportation. director was appointed to this position in june of 2015. he has nearly 20 years of experience in the transportation field, including work in both the public and private sector. schneweis. he bass background in civil engineering, transportation policy and consulting. welcome, sir. >> chairman fisher, ranking member peters and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. my name is kyle schneweis i am the director of department of transportation. thank you. we serve ascii link in transportation network. with our highways and inter knit 80 being crucial in the

transport of goods all across the country. in addition ks nebraska is home to some of the largest railroad and trucking organizations. grow nebraska. state agencies are making it more effective and improving customer service. creating opportunities. infrastructure provides states to keep together. our state has been very active on transportation. passing legislation and to streamline product development. for example, nebraska act was passed dedicating quarter of one cent from state sales tax receipts to fund new capital construction projects. in addition, the nebraska

transportation the act infrastructure bank, and established programs that allow us to provide matching funds to localities to address deficient bridges and spur local economy. it also did products like design build. and from officials in our state we've been able to move forward with many projects put on the shelf to lack of funding. great example is we are now on track to complete our system which had been talked about for decades. we did all this looking at critical look and repurchase posing it infrastructure, $1.6 billion in projects over the next years. finally, work with the federal highway administration to take on responsibilities from the federal government. i believe we are one of eight

states sought out that authority thus far. and once the process is complete, it will napoleon bonapar bonaparte -- incredibly valuable. taking place in washington d.c. about infrastructure, particularly administrations focus on making sure dedicated funding is available to rural states, and further streamlining project permitting requirements. additionally, with the framework that has been put forward by the president, we see it as an opportunity to be creative how we pay for projects and seeing the potential trying to fund yongd the traditional methods. funding resources across the country don't match up with investment needs. this means creative out of the box is needed. if we are to improve the national network. while the subcommittee and full committee evaluate proposals brought before you, i have a few key recommendations. first is that you make sure that the funds tied to any infrastructure have as few federal strings as possible.

state is best to put dollars to work on projects immediately and to get people working. president's plan offers $50 billion with $40 billion going to block grantsz and we are supportive of this idea. the president's proposal seeking more from local governments in relation to federal dollars. and i do think it's important to recognize the prior financial commitments that states have made. many including in nebraska raise the state tax to do infrastructure. this is not feasible in those states taken similar action. and i would encourage any legislation to have look back provisions that gives states and local governments that made those decisions full credit for doing so. public private partnerships also being discussed as possible options behind the president's plan. while rural states like

michigan, we believe that creating opportunities for incentives gives us another tool in the toolbox to be innovative. and i would like to harken back on the a permitting process. while nebraska is taken steps to reduce the burden, that doesn't prevent us from getting tied up in red tape. and i think more opportunities to assume federal responsibilities. and associated compliance with environmental laws. doing so does not absorb a state from serving as leading stewards of both the human and natural environments, provide better customer service to our constituents while ensuring that the environment that my family and friends live in remain protected. chairman, thank you for the invitation to join you and i

look forward to your questions. >> thank you, director. next we have president of managed services for ch robinson where he has worked since 1999. ch robinson has unique perspective on the state of infrastructure in the united states through work connecting shippers with carriers in the trucking, rail, air and ocean transportation industries. welcome. >> chairman fisher, ranking members, peters and members of the senate subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify at today's hearing. as one of the nation's third party providers, we have a unique view how they flow through infrastructure. i serve as president for services. in 2016 i addressed this committee. today i'll provide in sight into issues that keep supply chain up on at night as well as thoughts for infrastructure recognitions. we see the world through a different lens. their cost is predictable supply

chains. average supply chain oversees global logistics network. they want to keep the inventory lean and as close as possible to their customers. today's supply chains are challenged every day by weather, truck supply, increased congestion on highways and sea ports s private sector has allowed to focus on establishing efficient networks. while information supply chain planners with detailed authorize in the operations. private sector has continued to invest to improve efficiency. it has not kept up the need. other countries are investing in infrastructure in manner commerce rate with economic growth goals. here in the u.s. congestion is serious concern.

traffic delays have led to slower through put of inventory, inconsistent service and in es crewed ko increased costs. bottleneck report is great place to start when invest in improved infrastructure. wind proposal by the national manufacture is strong opportunities. our ship fers and carriers are also focused on parking. current availability of truck parking is in sufficient. in fact, when weather drivers, some are opening up their yards, but to all truckdrivers. we are encouraged by the provisions included in map 21 to address truck parking and additional solutions regarding the lack of parking for trucks. also encouraged by the establishment as part of the fast act which has provided shippers an opportunity to more directly connect with state

infrastructure planners. the minnesota freight advisory committee recently did northern minnesota border. congress should consider to bolster and expand programs like this. another area that could do this from the data from the safety administration. currently they have not consolidated all the information on the roads into a single website. this confusion has resulted in many shippers not checking carrier qualifications. other shippers may be using unrelated or less important data which may unintentionally exclude small carriers. we encourage this committee to include a national hiring standard for this in this bill. regarding freight, federal

freight funding mechanisms, we encourage this committee to separate the historic link of the gas tax and diesel tax, bridge to buy time current diesel tax for freight. supply chain professionals wholeheartedly prefer the diesel tax compared to all other proposals. while tolls may work well for autos, they create burdens within the supply chain. toll receipts can be challenging for brokers to incorporate into pricing. finally, a proposed highway service tax based on the value of freight tax would be exceedingly complicated to our businesses. we understand on the service it would be easy to replicate, but based on our experience with both modes skeptical of highway tax. it would lead to privates.

thank you for that. our nation and shippers supply chain professionals from that. >> thank you. next we have senior vice president for safety at the american short line and regional rail road association. previously served as associate administrator for railroad safety. experience provides her with in-depth knowledge of railroad needs and regulatory policy. welcome. >> thank you. thank you chair women fisher, ranking member peters and members of the committee. the trade association representing the nation's 600 class 2 and class 3 railroads. they operate under one-third of the nation's national railroad

network. operate in 49 states and handle nearly one out of every four railcars that move through the national system. short lines have three defining characteristics. we are maul business the average of the short line is 30 employees. the combined annual revenue is less than the annual revenues of any single one of the largest carriers. short lines spend a lot of money restoring branch lines that were headed for abandonment. they invest on average 25 to 35% of annual revenues in rehabilitating infrastructure making short line railroading one of the best in the country. for shippers in rural small town america, to help short line meet their needs, they did 2004 and renewed it six times up until 20

sf. this credit has exceeded in maximizing infrastructure investment and we believe making the credit permanent is the most important thing congress can do to help short lines rebuild and improve their portion of america's infrastructure. we know that many of you agree. 14 of the 17 members of this subcommittee, including chair women fisher and ranking member peters, are cosponsors of s 407, stabbed alone bill that would make it permanent. likewise, chairman thune and nelson are cosponsors. i know that tax legislation is not the purview of this committee, however, as the committee that is the most knowledgeable concerning rail row infrastructure mat ex i urge you to take your tax credit message to your colleagues weather ever and however the infrastructure is addressed in this congress. with regard to that which is in your jurisdiction, let me come in on several specific programs and conclude with some thoughts on infrastructure programs in general. we strongly support the chrissy

program. it provides direct access for short lionel ga ability and puts a focus on benefit cost analysis. we think that with the level playing field, short line projects will fare well. further, includes technology grants that can potentially helpful as we work to implement and pay for positive plane control. pleased to see issue first last year chris ssy funding and 18 a 19 appropriations. and we think that additional support for chrissy would be appropriate as this committee works to develop an infrastructure package. we support the tiger grants. while the analytical hurdles are steep small shippers, short lines have succeeded in securing numerous grants over the life. program. we are spurt tive of the infra grant program and would be supportive of a significant expansion in a new infrastructure package.

but we would suggest that expabded small project components would be needed and removal of the arbitrary limits on how much of the program can be spent on nonhighway programs, especially in a scenario where the program is not being 100% funded by a highway use fee. many of you are familiar with the rife loan program and the many efforts both by congress and republican and democrat administrations to improve the program. efforts that have been met with limited success. as described in my written testimony, we believe while it can be improved, it will never be a rehabilitation projects, and we hope the congress will not use the loan authority to check the short line box as it puts together an infrastructure package. as you consider how to proceed with infrastructure package, we believe there are three general provisions that will be important for short line participation. short line should be directly

eligible applicants for project grants, similar to chrissy. the process needs to be simple and transparent. short lines do not have grant writers and we don't have the resources to hire expensive washington d.c. consulting firms. the analytical process needs to be clear. and there should not be a one size fits all process. the benefit cost analysis for incremental improves on small track should not be the same as adding a new subway line. finally, we continue you to examine unnecessary federal regulations that divert resources from the track rehabilitation work which is the best way to improve road safety. i thank you for the opportunity and appreciate any questions you may have. >> thank you, miss strange. next we have mr. dan gil martin,

director of the municipal league. welcome, sir. >> thank you. good afternoon, chairman fisher, ranking member peters and members of the subcommittee. i'm thankful for the opportunity to speak with you today about rebuilding and reimagining our nation's infrastructure. i'm here on behalf of cities and villages in my state as well as the national league of cities which represents 19,000 cities and towns of all sizes across the country. first, let me commend the committee, and senator peters in particular, for his work to engage with the cities on the av start act. second, yesterday lc released a report bridging the rural economic divide. highlights the importance of economic connections such as infrastructure and market access to create sustainable growth and bridge the gap between urban and rural america. the full report is in your written testimony. cities are your partner in infrastructure h local governments own, operate, and

maintain 78% of the nation's road miles, 43% of the nation's federal aide highways, 50% of the nation's bridge inventory, 95% of the water and waste water investments, and support our local transit programs as well. we believe a national, comprehensive infrastructure bill is essential and should support five guiding principles. one, sustainable investment. together cities and our federal partners must address the existing core structure background, reestablish long-term funding, and use new technologies serve american cities for the next 100 years. without funding we will continue manage the decline of transportation networks. two, locally different projects. local leaders should be given a strong voice indecision making as they are bet positioned to

identify where infrastructure needs are greatest. as you've seen from the tiger grants silos from the past are not good patch for strong modern network. flexible programs are crucial for the creation of authentic vibrant local places that drive economic pros expert today. three, federal local partnerships. cities across this country are investing billions of their own resources and need a steady federal partner to exist national programs and make significant capital investments for the long-term of the economy. infrastructure are planned years in advance. having reliable source of funding will allow local communities to plan and build for the future. fourth, expand revenue tools. cities should be given more flexibility to raise revenues and use innovative techniques while protecting existing tools. we stand ready to work with you to identify new opportunities. and, fifth, to rebuild and

reimagine. we are investing in ipt modal sustainable and interconnected places that people want to live, learn, work and play in. congress should invest in city's vision to reimagine america infrastructure across the country. we believe these principles form the basis for america's next investment. every day we wait our nation's infrastructure gap grows. a band-aid approach no longer serves americans. recently described cars on roads like this, waiting on the side of roads for hours. i can tell you this is true. today cities are reinventing moo i state and doing our part. residents have responded by

supporting this. the state legislature has raised state gas tax and fees. but funding levels fall short. now is the time for the federal government to partner with us and pass a infrastructure package and provide cities in michigan and those across america with reliable transportation network for the 21st century. we know get the shortfall won't be easy. and it will take a significant commitment from every level of government, federal, state and local. we simply cannot watch our major infrastructure systems break down in slow motion. we must address the pipeline gaps across all sectors that build our roads, maintain our bridges, and operate our waste water systems. america's infrastructure is system being pushed through the limits and the time to act is now.

on behalf of cities across the country, we ask you to partner with us and take the necessary steps to rebuild and reimagine america's infrastructure as a modern, safe, reliable, and efficient model for the world. i thank you for the opportunity. >> thank you very much. we'll begin our first round of questions now. and thank you, panel, for your opening statements. director, i'm glad that you mentioned nebraska's work to assume the authority. during a recent senate environment and public works committee hearing secretary chow said she hoped to have the mou between nebraska and the federal highway administration signed shortly. can you elaborate on the benefits to nebraska you bloo eve will result from assuming this authority? and do you believe this process could serve as model for other authorities? >> thank you, chairman fisher. we are entering the final stages

of the negotiation. so i can tell you we have been very pleased with the approach that the highway has taken with us, both locally and here in washington. we have a lot of support as we try to enter into this agreement. for us, it's really a matter of saving time and saving money. we have the experts that do this work at the dot. and so ask them to do the work and then hnd it for for review on the federal side and do that again and again throughout the life of the project, it adds time that we don't feel is necessary. so we think we'll be able to shave off a lot of time and therefore save money on our projects. i do think state's dot are uniquely positioned to assume some of these responsibilities and i think there are responsibilities to look at other areas. i would encourage looking at, for example, section 404 with the corps of engineers, something that we issue or we submit 30 to 50 permits a year. we have experts who do this

every day. and i think we can do it in a responsible way that met the obligations. >> have you had an opportunity to look at a bill or, i don't know if it's been introduced quite yet, from senator cornyn that deals with section 404? i recently signed onto that. >> i have seen it, yes. and without -- i don't want to mess up the details of it, but it seemed like something that we would be very much in support of. >> and have you had the opportunity to look at other states who have assumed the authority? there are a number of them that i think six to eight currently have it. >> correct. >> what has been their experience? >> i think it's been very positive. and i'll tell you there is a bit of a fraternity with stated dot, so as we enter into these things, states jump first eager to assist us. and in fact some folks from ohio came out and helping us think

through the decision. i know california is there. alaska. arizona is just a few weeks ahead of us. so a lot of interest. and folks who have done it have found it to be successful. >> and you've had a good working relationship with federal highway administration on that? >> yes. the federal highway has been very supportive of this effort. >> thank you. also i was very happy to see nebraska received $25 million tiger grant. and generally nebraska has done better under the formula funding under a grant or any kind of financing programs, although i hope to see nebraska better compete in the future for those. can you talk about the importance of maintaining the highway trust fund and the formula funding programs to our state? >> sure. we were very pleased with the news on the tiger grant. after a decade of submissions, to finally be on the receiving end was very exciting of the

grant programs are great. i think it provides the federal government opportunity to partner in trance formative projects that may transcend boundaries of states. but malt lilt funds are preserving for us, that certainty is what we need, knowing those resources will be there, we don't have to depend on a grant to be able to take care of those roads and bridges is a key component for us. >> thank you very much. mr. gilmartin, you mentioned this briefly in your testimony as well. could you elaborate on the importance of that consistent long-term funding, the cities' abilities to plan for future transportation projects? >> absolutely. it's not a lot different than a private business where having long-term sustainable partnership is something you've got to look at. when we talk about building infrastructure, we are talking about roads and bridges and other things that we're looking at lasting 20, 30, 40, 50 years,

so understanding you have a partnership, you have a source of revenue, you have a program you can use over the long haul, is very important. these are not one or two year decisions. they play out over decades. >> thank you very much. senator peters? >> thank you, madam chair. i would like you to talk a little more about where we are in michigan. as i mentioned in my opening comments, where we are is not all that different from every other state in the country. certainly in the midwest, in particular those of us who have a lot of change of seasons and lot of wear and tear on roads as a result of weather, that's certainly a lot of states experience that which adds to the cost. perhaps if you could initially paint a picture as to where we are in michigan in terms of infrastructure. you mentioned about some tax increases and other things that have occurred in the state, but what are you hearing from our local cities and townships in terms of the extent of the problem we face in our state? >> our transportation

infrastructure in michigan is as bad as it's ever been. senator peters, you are correct, when the spring thaw comes on occasion we start kicking up potholes and those types of things. we are all kind of used to that in northern states, but this year is a special kind of ugly on michigan roads. it is gone from a difficult experience to at times a frightening one, to drive down roads, the information i talked about earlier, the quote from wwj is very real. i have experienced that myself. cars are pulled over all the time. i have had to pull off the street twice in the last two weeks to check my front end because of the impact of potholes we've hit. a colleague of mine had a baseball sized piece of concrete cut through his grill last week. i had a member of my staff kind of balk at traveling to a meeting out of the office because of perceived lack of safety on the roads. i didn't blame him. that's kind of where we're at.

i can give you a lot of statistics but recent civil engineering report that came out speaks to that, d-minus, i said to a friend of mine, the grades there looked like when dean wermer brought in the brothers from delta house to give the grade point averages of animal house. it's bad. we have seen that consistently throughout our state. to go beyond that, i talked a lot in my testimony about the importance of reimagining our infrastructure. rebuilding what we have is one thing. we see differences in economies, differences in how people are choosing to transport themselves, how they want to move around within regional economies. we have to be building for new as well. we are sort of at that space i talked about where we are in a real jam because we have to fix what we have and prepare ourselves for new economies moving forward. >> i will want to talk more on

that if time, if not we will have another round. as you talk about the state of the roads, which is horrible, i'm back every weekend and i can assure you, everything you're saying is accurate. i think a couple weeks ago when i got home i was welcomed with a picture in the local newspaper that had i believe the deputy sheriff standing in a pothole up to his waist. that's a real serious michigan pothole. that will swallow a car if you get into that. also, we were talking about infrastructure, roads and bridges but certainly infrastructure is much broader. i mentioned flint in my opening comments. tell me whales a what else are hearing, when we talk about infrastructure, we can't have just roads and bridges. we are talking underground infrastructure, broadband internet to be able to connect. what are some of the damagchall you are hearing from our cities and towns? >> just that, senator. we see -- we first started seeing real problems in our core communities, our communities that were suffering economically

and we began seeing that, that was maybe a decade, decade and a half ago. now we begin seeing it in our first core suburbs. infrastructure is infrastructure. doesn't matter what community you're in. if you're older, you are dealing with things right now. if you are a little younger in terms of roads and bridges and pipes, you will be dealing with it in the future. we have come to a point in michigan where this is a problem literally from east to west and north to south. it's very obvious in some of the urban areas where it's just more contained and the scale is larger, but i don't know single local official anywhere in our membership that is not really pushing to do something infrastructure wise. that's just on the fix-it end. we start talking about jobs and everything else, we have to do different things as we move forward. whether that's roads, water, the flint situation is something i have worked with a lot with the city council and mayor up there.

it was tragic and the decisions, we could get into that forever, but a lot of that was driven by the fact there wasn't enough money anymore to support the infrastructure that was there. because i'm sure the colleague, my colleagues on the panel will attest the easiest thing to do is build a road. the hard thing is to maintain it for 30 years, then rebuild it 30 years later. when we find ourselves in those positions without proper financing, without support from the federal government and state government, poor decisions get made, maintenance gets deferred and we wind up in real problem areas. >> just quickly, you mentioned in your opening comment, it's not as if our local communities, cities and villages haven't been passing local milledges. they have been taxing local citizens but that's inadequate given the magnitude of the problem. >> we are tapped out. 80% passed in this last november election and that's in cities large and small, rich and poor,

east and west, north and south. many communities are at their limits. we have made changes at the state. we are bringing in more money. we need to do a better job there as well. but this effort requires all three levels of government, federal, state and local. we really need the federal government to step up and play the leadership role they played for a long time. >> thank you. >> senator hassan? >> thank you, madam chair. good afternoon. thank you all for being here. i'm reminded with the discussion we have been having of advice a very wise businessman once gave me which is always make sure you differentiate between expenses and investment. when we are talking about infrastructure, we are talking about the importance of investment so that over time we keep our expenses on things like maintenance and repairs lower. i wanted to talk for a minute about our nation's bridges.

infrastructure is obviously a serious challenge across the country. we are hearing it from all of you today. it's certainly in my home state of new hampshire. according to the american society of civil engineers, nearly four in ten of the nation's bridges are 50 years or older and each day, there are 188 million vehicle trips over these aging structures. in new hampshire, more than 400 bridges are listed as structurally deficient or in poor condition. so i join my colleague senator shaheen in introducing the safe bridges act which would provide much-needed funding for repairing and replacing bridges categorized as structurally deficient. this bill would authorize additional $2.75 billion annually through fiscal year 2020 to enable states to repair and replace their structurally deficient bridges. how important are efforts like the safe bridges act in making meaningful infrastructure investments in our nation's future and do you see

infrastructure as a matter of national security? >> absolutely. bridges are a huge challenge in nebraska. we have 11,000 bridges in our state. many of them, the rivers all go this way, so the bridges cross two times. if you were to design the network today, it might look different than it does. we are stuck with what we have. it takes partnership. for the first time in nebraska last year, we started what's called the county bridge matching program because we recognized even though those bridges are not in our jurisdiction, it's a huge transportation issue for us. so what we did was, we have tried to incentivize innovative thing at the county level by encouraging folks to remove bridges where possible. they get extra credit for that. they get credit for putting in a pipe instead of a bridge. cheaper to maintain. we are trying to spread best practices and provide innovation through an investment in state

dollars. we have seen tremendous success just in the first year. we are very pleased. >> what are your thoughts about infrastructure as a security issue? >> certainly it is when it comes to being able to get food to market and these sorts of things. in nebraska we think a lot about that, having alternate routes so if the interstate, if we have an incident on the interstate we can still get goods to market. that's something we evaluate as we plan. >> thank you. mr. gilmartin? >> i have not seen this particular bill but i can tell you my state league and the national league of cities does endorse a multi-tiered, multi-pronged revenue structure for dealing with infrastructure across the country. certainly it's in the spirit of what we are looking at doing. we have over 1100 structurally deficient bridges in the state of michigan. it's right up there in terms of things that we need to deal with right now to make sure we move forward. you talked about being a security issue. it's certainly a commerce issue. at its core, it's a flat safety

issue which a lot of people are really starting to see as they drive over these bridges. in some cases in our state, plywood is the only thing that stands between you and concrete falling down on your car. that's not in some small tucked away burg. it's in our metropolitan areas. >> thank you very much for that. short line rail represents really an important part of our nation's economy and i think it is often overlooked. it serves as a really important last mile connecting communities to the larger u.s. rail network. short line railroads operate roughly 30% of the national rail network. what will your industry require to remain viable in my state of new hampshire and across the country and what specifically can congress do to assist the short line rail initiatives? >> thank you. i appreciate the question,

because short lines operate at 100% of your network so i appreciate that. i think from our perspective, the single most important thing that could touch every single short line in the united states is passing the tax credit. >> okay. thank you for that. i have an additional question which i will submit for the record. i do want to make sure we have a complete record of the importance of the investments states are already making into transportation infrastructure as we consider plans like the one we have seen from the administration, because i think at the end of the day it's not realistic to expect either the private sector or states to do all the heavy lifting that's outlined in the administration's plan. i will submit that for the record. thank you, madam chair. >> thank you, madam chair. thank you for having this. lot of people are not aware's the dual jurisdiction. the environment and public works committee and of course, the commerce committee. they handle different parts of this but there are a lot of

things in common, the successes we've had in the past we want to draw on. i would say our ebw committee held hearings in the past to consider the innovative solutions for public sector funding. in fact, we have been doing this now for 20 years that i can attest to and in your testimony, you highlight that many supply chain professionals are disconnected from the policy making process but that things have improved with the establishment of the state advisory committees. it was the first time we have ever done that before. question would be how should congress bolster these and other advisory committees to ensure supply chain professionals can be part of the policy making process? what's the best way to make that happen? >> i think most supply chain professionals if you were to sit down with them simply don't know how the mechanism works.

so broader education for supply chain professionals that we now do have these outlets and that we can leverage committees like that i think would be a huge step forward. as i mentioned in my testimony, just the ability to immediately connect a supply chain professional with government to resolve very specific and very real problems has been a really big step forward. i encourage you to do more of that. >> okay. you are probably aware that i was the original co-sponsor of the legislation to make the 45g tax credit permanent, and i haven't changed my mind. this committee knows the importance of the issue but it's worth being repeated. short line railroads are a big deal in oklahoma. we have about 1700 employees, over 3,000 miles of track. we rank up there pretty high. this year, farm rail, short line railroad in western oklahoma received a tiger grant to

upgrade and rehabilitate major sections of track so they can continue to serve a host of customers in oklahoma. in your testimony, you highlight time and time again that the application process for grant and loan programs in d.o.t. are overly complex or cumbersome for short line railroads. they really kind of favor the big railroads because they are all set up to do it with the personnel and all that. how could we update and modernize the process to make it more efficient for short line railroads than it has been in the past? >> thank you for that question. we do indeed have a very important railroad in oklahoma, and farm rail which i know you know their president well. i think it is important for us to have processes that are simple and clear. short lines are small businesses. the average size is 30 employees. we don't have staffs of professional grant writers, nor do we have access to the money

that it takes to get the professional d.c. based grant writers to work for us. instead, if we have direct access to funds such as the eligibility, that is huge. that way we don't have to find a state or local government to partner with us. we can go directly apply on our own. having a transparent and simple selection process is also very important to us. so that we don't have to do exceedingly complex analysis of our projects where we don't really have the capability of doing so. >> we would like to help you in doing this. how do we go about getting this done? >> we would like to see it fully funded. we think it's a great program. it could be expanded to help more small businesses. i think having adequate funding to its authorized levels would be very, very helpful. >> thank you very much.

>> thank you very much, chairman. thank you to senator peters as well for this important hearing. i guess i will start with tiger grants, something that's been important in our state. mr. gilmartin, why is it important we continue to fund programs like tiger and c.i.g. that support all modes of transportation? >> it's important because that's what the public is demanding moving forward. if you look at regional economies around this country and even throughout the world who are demanding different ways of -- different modes of transportation, whether that be by bus, by rail, by car, we see so many different changes happening technology wise that we have to have flexibility. the tiger grants and programs like that provide it and we have to make sure we are looking at the entirety of a system. the transportation system within a city or region, we break it down into a neighborhood, is probably the number one way you could incent people enjoying

where they're at and more and more business activity within that particular area. those programs are very important to us. >> mr. kass, welcome. i know he was introduced before but he's from c.h. robinson, which is one of 16 fortune 500 companies headquartered in minnesota. we are pretty proud of the company of c.h. robinson. i know senator inhofe was just asking about the importance of the national level involvement with the advisory committees and feedback you're getting. i want to ask you about the efficient flow of freight across america's multi modal transit systems, how important that is to the competitiveness of our economy when shippers are delayed and major congestion and outdated infrastructure products don't arrive on time, businesses suffer. costs for consumers go up. in addition to addressing the freight bottlenecks, what investments should be made to improve supply chains and the

flow of freight? >> in terms of investment in supply chain and what can help the u.s., the vast majority of freight with respect to my colleagues here, the overwhelming majority of freight here in the united states is still shipped via truck. period, end of story. so with that, i think when you look at the bottlenecks, in the united states, they are in the major cities. in my testimony, i pointed us to the report of the top bottlenecks within the united states. knowing that we have limited funds and we can't do everything and if we had to pick a priority, i would point us to that report and say let's go

after that, let's fix surface transportation. the last thing i would add is the businesses here in the united states are fully aware that other countries are investing in a way that is more commensurate with that economic growth goals and we're not. they're concerned we're not going to be competitive, we will fall behind. >> i like to remind people if we had one point less of a tax reduction it would have been $100 billion as part of the tax bill, each point is about $100 billion that could have been used for infrastructure or if we had taken some of the money from overseas but i'm not going to cry over spilled milk or spilled taxes and try to focus on going forward here. miss strang, one of your answers for bottlenecks might be better rail and connections and things and i appreciate the short line and the work you do in my state as well. i just met with some of your people, so thank you.

anyone else want to add anything about what you think we should be doing? i have always supported public/private partnership. i'm concerned about only doing that for rural areas. we're not going to have a toll road in lanesborough, minnesota, we have to have a combination of direct funding as well as public/private. >> i would just add, i think it's very important the public sector and private sector come together to solve these problems. it's about making it cheaper for businesses to operate. that's what we are trying to do in nebraska. if we can understand our supply chain, how to improve connections, then we can make it cheaper for nebraska businesses to do business. that's our goal. i think it's everything. >> okay. >> if i may, we are a system. so trucks and rail has to work together in order for us to serve our country adequately. for that, from a short line small business perspective, i would say two things. it's getting the investment tax credit passed which benefits

every single short line and the ability to rehabilitate their track and third is keeping truck size and weight constant. this is not a time for big changes in truck size and weight or other things that could upset the balance of our nation's transit system. >> okay. thank you very much. >> thank you, senator. we will have a second round of questions and if other members of the committee have time to join us, they can head this way now. mr. kass, you were speaking about the bottlenecks and how we address that. looking ahead, though, e-commerce is having a big impact on supply chains and it's requiring really greater demand, faster shipping out there. can you elaborate on the impact e-commerce is having on the freight industry, especially in dense areas? >> i would be happy to. an e-commerce supply chain is

going to be a supply chain typically that is rapid-fire so very little lead time, shorter distances and smaller size of goods. as you know, most of e-commerce is going to your front door. what that means is that we are shifting the flow of trucks and transportation from our nation's highways into our neighborhoods. so i think from an infrastructure perspective, we really need to think about the volumes and the safety concerns associated with the increased velocity of packages to the front door. >> you also talk about the confusion that shippers face when they are trying to decide what data is relevant when they choose a carrier, and how would a national hiring standard clarify and streamline those hiring decisions for shippers and third party logistics providers? >> sure. in the main, first you have to consider that there are

thousands upon thousands of truckload carriers today. it's a very fragmented marketplace. that's a good thing. it gives the united states competitive advantage. with that, though, there isn't one single place that a shipper can go to to say did fmcsa endorse or authorize this carrier. in fact, what it is is information overload. i think streamlining the process, putting it in a central location will make it easier to ensure that people are using carriers the fmscsa intends us to. >> thank you. director, as congress looks forward to getting started here on an infrastructure package, can you elaborate on the importance of identifying freight priorities as part of our infrastructure and do you believe there are ways that the federal role in freight policy

can be improved? >> i think if there's one clear role for the federal government in terms of transportation, it's on the freight side because it transcends our state borders. it's in our neighborhoods now. understanding that piece of it, i think the conversations around freight plans, we completed our first freight plan this year. it's very helpful as we move forward and for us, it's about considering the economic impacts of our projects as we select them, and not only what they mean to communities but what they mean to the businesses and the freight community. mplts thank you. miss strang, you talked about the concerns that the american short line and regional railroad association has about the railroad rehabilitation and improvement financing. can you highlight the differences between that program and the tiger programs that are out there and you did indicate you supported those in your testimony, am i correct? >> yes, we do.

we very much support the programs that have been created. one of the difficulties is that it is alone. it's not a grant. it has to be repaid. the other issue is that it has a credit risk premium that has to be paid up front. this can be a daunting challenge to a small business that has to get the financing to pay that credit risk premium up front, whereas for a grant, it is a grant and they are happy to work, you know, if they need to provide matching funds, they are very happy to try to do so if that's required. on the loan side, it takes a very long time to get a loan. we have six loans in the process now that have been in the process now for 18 months. so while there are efforts under way at the credit bureau, at d.o.t., to improve the process and we greatly appreciate that, it's still a small number of loans that are in process. there's no certainty. and you know, we have had loans

that were held up for several years over buy america provisions for something that was a refinancing a used piece of equipment. so it's just kind of been frustrating. >> you have mentioned a number of times that our short lines are small businesses and some have 30 employees or less. as small businesses, do they meet the requirements for any kind of loans under the small business administration? or do they work with local banks in trying to get loans? >> they usually work with local banks in trying to get loans because they are known, small businesses know their communities, their community bankers know them. they have relationships. frequently it may be easier for them to obtain financing through a local bank or commercial operation in their neighborhood than it is to go to a larger federal funding source.

>> do you know if they would qualify? out of curiosity. >> i believe they would, but i would have to check to be certain. if i may, i will get back to you with that. >> thank you. senator peters? >> thank you, madam chair. just want to drill down a little bit into the president's proposal and just get a sense of where the panel is on some of these issues. he's talked about $1.5 trillion of additional money for infrastructure. however, only $200 billion of that $1.5 trillion is direct federal money. the rest is coming from some sort of leverage he talks about public/private partnerships which means a private entity needs a revenue stream and that means toll roads or perhaps just state and local, bringing up the rest, basically a mandate for our state agencies and local governments to come up with the rest. i have heard we are stretched, you mentioned already in

michigan, for example, they are near their taxing authority. toll roads will likely be a big part of this. do you have toll roads in nebraska? >> no, sir. not at the moment. >> how would toll road -- you believe toll roads is a good idea for your state? >> i would say it's nothing that we have put into use in nebraska in the past. i think my sense is that nebraskans would not support putting tolls on a road that previously did not have them. however, i do think there could be opportunities if there are facilities that don't currently exist today that could maybe provide a movement that we can't now make and so for providing that extra benefit, i'm not personally opposed to exploring the idea of tolls. i don't think it will save all of our infrastructure needs in nebraska but to say that it's not a tool that might be used just because we are a rural state, i wouldn't go that far. >> you are saying it's unlikely the people in nebraska would support a toll on a road that's

currently been constructed? >> that's my opinion. yes, sir. >> we do not have any toll roads in michigan as well. what do your members think about toll roads? >> toll roads is something that michigan, as you well know, has always stayed away from. part of that is geography. we are two peninsulas and we don't have the cross-through traffic a lot of midcontinent states have. basically, a toll would be placed upon someone who either lives in or does business in the state and there are other vehicles to look at, no pun intended, to try to figure out a better way of doing that. i don't see tolls being an important thing or likely tool that michigan would use. perhaps in other places it makes sense. i don't see that happening in our state. >> you are talking about public/private partnerships, it's not really a solution for michigan and probably not for nebraska. mr. kass, you i believe mentioned in your testimony the

concern about toll roads for your industry. could you elaborate? >> sure. i will answer the question in two parts. first, i think when you are talking about major businesses, large shippers here in the united states, at this point in time, almost all of them have deployed technology platforms to optimally route the way a shipment should ship. as have the carriers. so i think that with that routing, if they were designing a route and there was an option of a toll road or road that did not have a toll, and they could still make their delivery, what you would do is push large vehicles on to local roads. i don't know that that's a good idea. i think secondarily, if you are a carrier and in particular, small carrier, the majority of carriers in the united states operate between one and four

trucks. they are small businesses, too. as has been a common theme on this panel, they don't have a lot of administrative staff. i think tolling means they would add extra administrative burden to the invoicing process and that would just flow back up, upstream to the shipper. i don't think it would be popular with carriers or shippers. >> you mentioned trucks would shift to other routes, that you would be able to identify where the tolls are and the apps on our phone can tell us avoid all tolls. that's pretty easy to do. you would employ that as far as commercial trucking. how would you deal with the fact for long haul shippers? they will be on major highways. it probably doesn't make sense to do secondary roads if you are trying to get a shipment from point a to point b. >> only when it's an option. they will do the analysis, look at the options and when they can take a lower cost route, they will. but certainly if it doesn't make sense, no. they will travel on the

highways. >> you mentioned the importance of tiger grants to short rail. i'm very pleased in michigan we have a number of short rail carriers as well because of our location, we have the class i that run across the bottom of the state but in order to get to northern michigan, the u.p., we rely on short line. so thank you for the work you do in that area. tiger grants are important and i'm sure you are aware that in the president's budget, he calls for eliminating them. what would that do to short line rail? >> short lines have been recipients of the grants and it has greatly improved our ability to upgrade our track. if you think about it, we connect with the big class i railroads that use heavy cars, 286,000 pounds. we have to be able to upgrade our track and our bridges to be able to handle these cars and to handle class i six axle locomotives to serve rural areas

of the country and to serve small shippers. >> thank you. >> thank you, senator peters. i would once again like to thank the panel members for being here today for this important discussion and providing us with the information you did. the hearing record will remain open for two weeks and during this time, senators are asked to submit any questions for the record. upon receipt, the witnesses are requested to submit their written answers to the committee as soon as possible. once again, thank you to our panel of witnesses. thank you, senator peters. we are adjourned.

i haven't spoken to speaker ryan. obviously i talk to my colleagues here in the senate all the time. >> do you have any sense, if there were some sort of permitting reform measure, if that were to emerge, how would that take shape? what committee would it come out of? >> i think gheern, there's already a process in place. you see nebraska has put in to

be accepted in that. i think that's important to be able to have that process. i would say condensed, because you wouldn't have duplication there. you have the states assume the design, planning and construction. the director said other states obviously have already moved forward on it. we have done it somewhat in nebraska. the way i view this is this is how you are really going to stretch dollars you already have. which can help expand that so you don't have to look for new money. >> sure. >> okay? thank you, guys. appreciate you being here.

earlier today, the house armed services committee held a hearing on military operations to counter potential russian aggression in europe. you can watch this hearing again tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. >> c-span's "washington journal" live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. coming up friday morning, we will talk about what congress is doing to improve school safety with assistant editor of education week. then we look at the recent nerve agent attack in the uk on a former russian spy. joining us for that conversation is darryl kimball of the arms control association. henry olson, author and senior fellow of the ethics and public policy center on his book "the working class republican" about the future of the republican