>> welcome back to our final speaker of the afternoon. for those of you who celebrate, happy st. patrick's day today. michelle and i am here with the abraham lincoln institute. our next speaker has been described by his enemies and -- this is irritable

not actually about walter -- goodhearted, devoted, patriotic, duplicitous, aggressive, resilient, strong-willed, hateful, cruel, honest, unselfish, fearless, obsequious, incorruptible. to abraham lincoln, this man was indispensable. was litany of adjectives not applied to our next speaker, walter star. i already ruined the punchline. rather to the subject of his latest biography, the always fascinating edwin stanton. walter only shares the qualities that made stanton sensible like diligence, persistence, and the ability to organize mountains of data. like stanton, walter stars background is in the law.

graduating from harvard, walter joined a law firm that focused on international law and this became his specialty with an emphasis on legal work relating to asia. walters work went in a new direction in the early 2000 when he turned his attention to writing biographies of other notable lawyers in american history. his biographer the of john jay 2005 to beed in followed by biographies of william seward and edwin stanton . he is currently working on a biography of salmon chase. i recently learned from walter that the library of congress was an important factor in his path to becoming the historian we welcome today. in theung lawyer pre-internet age, he researched state law questions in the law library from there he progressed to researching family history and local history.

that led to visits to the main reading room, the manuscript division and the rare books and special collections division to research his biography of john jay. contact highed the up doing historic research to taking drugs. [laughter] >> honestly, he said mainlining heroin but i do not think that was appropriate. just say no to drugs. in his own words there is no hope for the addict at that point. you are talking to the man who has taken the redeye flight from california and taken a taxi directly to the library of congress. we are grateful there is as yet no 12-step program took your walter star of his research addiction. rs,aking about lincoln's ma edwin stanton, please join me in welcoming walter star. thank you for that kind introduction.

start on april 14, right here in ford's theater , but listening to some of the earlier speakers i thought i should go back before april 14. let's start on april 3, 1865. a telegram arrives in the war department, a much smaller, more modest building. after four years, the union army has finally entered richmond. war flashes around the department building and the clarks run out into the streets shouting. inarge crowd has gathered front of the war department demanding a speech from stanton, the secretary of war. he stepped out overcome by emotion and he says friends and this greatzens, at --r of triumph, my heart is

to almighty god for his deliverance of this nation. our thanks is due to the president, the army and navy, the gallant men who have risked their lives on the battlefield and drenched the soil with their blood. henceforth our commiseration and our age should be given to the wounded and the suffering. let us humbly offer up our thanks to divine providence for care over us and beseech him that will you will guide and governess and -- guide and govern us in our duties hereafter as he has carried us to victory in the past and tedious to be humble in the midst of triumph, just in the hour of victory, and enable us to secure the foundations of that they haveo

been in blood, so that may live forever and ever. echoes their of lincoln's second inaugural, you are right, this is stanton's second inaugural. this is a fairly sober speech. i assure you that night in washington there was drinking and fireworks in celebration and that continued over the next few days with news that lee had surrendered and sherman was about to capture the last large confederate army. unrestrained of rejoicing in washington. on april 14, 1865, news someone had shot lincoln at ford's theater and that at the same time, someone

had slashed and stabbed secretary of state steward -- werd inry of state se his home at lafayette square. indeed he had been with him an hour ago. he had been injured in a carriage accident and was confined to his bed. stanton headed over and realize to his horror that it was true. someone had slashed the secretary of state about the face and neck and he had survived and was able to talk to stanton briefly. stanton went back downstairs and the two of them got into the carriage and came here to 10th street. so crowded with

people exchanging whatever rumors and news they had that they had to get out of their carriage and walk. how they learned that lincoln was no longer here in ford's in that box there, that he had been carried across the street to the peterson house. they did learn, and so they entered the peterson house and that is where my stanton book begins. burly man pushing his way through the crowd, up the staircase, into the peterson house, into the back bedroom where lincoln is lying .iagonally on a bed, dying stanton learned from the doctors within one minute that lincoln would never open his eyes. rather than go to the war department, he decided to stay put. he went into the next room, he sat down at a small table and went to work.

to generalessage was grant, who was on a train headed north to see his family in new jersey. he said come back to washington. following up with a message saying take care of your personal security. messages to close the bridges, question those leaving washington, arrest suspicious persons. he summoned folks from ford's across the street to the peterson house because he wanted to question witnesses while their memory was still fresh. you was a lawyer, he knew the value of questioning witnesses right away. when his aides cannot keep up with the question and answers in long hand, he said find me someone who can take shorthand. soon a crippled clark found himself -- a crippled clerk found himself sitting next to the secretary of war taking shorthand notes. series also sent out a of what we would call press releases, telegrams addressed to

the general in new york city which were disseminated immediately to the nation's newspapers. let me read the first few lines of the first of those messages, sent at about 1:00 in the morning on april 15. "this evening at about 9:30 p.m., at ford's theater, while sitting in his private box with mrs. lincoln and major wrath burn, was shot by an assassin who approached the president. upon thesin leaped stage brandishing a large dagger or night and made his escape to the rear of the theater. the pistol ball entered the back of the president's head and penetrated nearly through the head. the wound is mortal. the president has been insensible ever since it was inflicted and is now dying." those of you who are lincoln assassination buffs will have

noted a couple minor errors in what i read compared to what happened. i will not reveal them now. overall, the message goes on to talk about seward and seward's son. detailed,mazingly amazingly accurate description of the events in ford's and at the seward house written within a couple hours of those events. in another of these press and a few hours later, stanton reported that a letter found in boots trunk at the trunk at theooth's the murder was planned before the fourth of march that was abandoned because an accomplice backed out before richmond could be heard from. away,efore lincoln passed stanton was focused on what would become his obsession -- proving that john wilkes booth

was not just a man man, proving that he was paid and working for the confederate government. early the next morning, stanton was in the back bedroom as lincoln died. stanton supposedly said, right after lincoln's death, "now he belongs to the ages." i say supposedly because i do not think stanton said that. there were detailed accounts written about lincoln's last hours and last minutes and death right after the assassination. some of them appeared in the newspapers, some of them were in private letters, including a long letter by james tanner. of those accounts mention stanton saying anything right after lincoln died. what they describe is how lincoln's pastor let everyone in prayer and then people dispersed. those words first appear in

print in 1890, when lincoln's areetaries hay and nikolay publishing their biography of lincoln. -- i'm not 100% sure he did not say it. hay was there, it is possible. i think if stanton had said anything so memorable, it would have somehow survived in print before 1890. of 1865,k to april stanton was incredibly busy in the days and weeks that followed the assassination organizing the funeral in washington, d.c. organizing the route for the funeral change that would take -- the funeral train that would take lincoln's remains back to the sacred ground of springfield. organizing the manhunt, the

investigation into this complicated plot to assassinate not only lincoln but also johnson and perhaps stanton and grant. on april 20, stanton spent part of the day drafting what is one of the most famous things from the lincoln assassination, the poster offering awards for the capture of john wilkes booth and his colleagues. the stain of innocent blood be removed from the land by the arrest and punishment of the murderers." a draft of that and stanton's own hands is in the archives of the new york historical society. in washington is the record of the investigation, such as the record exists, and that shows that stanton directed the investigation. there is a note in stanton's hand directing his aides to collate the evidence about the horses that were used by john wilkes booth and his colleague

the-- his colleague powell, man who stabbed stewart -- who said -- who stabbed seward. there were rumors all of the country that john wilkes booth was here. chicago,te is from that john wilkes booth was in a brothel dressed as a woman amidst the prostitutes. he cannot disregard it. stanton said a message to military authorities in chicago to go to the brothels and check it out. yes, there were clues pointing to what we know as the escape route, which you can take if you take the tour. there were clues pointing every other direction, and moreover he had another problem, that is that he and no ideas where jefferson davis was and he was hunting for jefferson davis as well.

is reports were that dave intended to reunite with the rebel army and to die fighting in mexico or texas or some such place. the 26th ofntil april that two detectives showed up at stanton's house to report that they had got john wilkes booth. -- they described for stanton how booth had been located at ad been barn and surrounded, how his colleague surrendered, there was a shot and then there was another shot. one of the federal shoulder -- one of the federal soldiers shot booth. booth was shot but he lingered a while on the porch of the farmhouse and then died. they brought the objects they had taken from boots body including a diary -- from booth's body. he looked at the mall and gave them back to the detective. he gave orders that the body should be taken to a secure place and there should be a medical and dental examination.

he wanted to be 100% sure that this was john wilkes booth. booth was dead and his colleagues were in prison, more precisely on prison ships anchored in the potomac river. stanton now turned his attention to the military commission that would try the john wilkes booth conspiracy is -- conspirators. it was controversial, but it was an easy decision for stan to use a military commission rather than a civil court to try the murderers. were dozens ofe military commissions in progress at that moment, trying man on charges of attempted arson in new york city or attempted sabotage. if military commissions could be used to try those offenses, surely, stanton thought, a military commission was the proper way to try those who had

attempted, who had indeed killed the military leader of the united states in the military capital of the united states. his ownprepared, in hand, the procedures for that military commission. they are at the new york historical society. he required the defense lawyers take the so-called ironclad oath that they had neither supported nor aided the rebellion in any way. he wrote that no reporters but the official reporter should be admitted in the courtroom and as the trial started it started behind closed doors. this led to a firestorm of protest in the newspapers. the new york world referral to mr. stanton's star chamber and the new york tribune, usually supportive of the administration , wrote that there was a curious old document in existence known

as the constitution of the united states. sinceibune continued that it appeared that no copy of this document was in washington, it's then quotes certain sections, including the section that guarantees criminals trial by jury. stanton relented somewhat. he opened the door of the military commission to selected newspaper reporters and thus the remainder of the trial, which went on for quite a while, was reported in detail in the newspapers. one of the hundreds of witnesses who testified that one of the was at stanton's house on the night before the murders asking questions about stanton and his habits. this and other evidence suggested that stanton was not only conducting the investigation, he was conducting an investigation into his own

attempted murder as well as the murder of lincoln and the attempted murder of seward. there were eight defendants ranging from lewis powell, the man who had slashed seward, to marry saran who had -- to mary surratt who ran the boarding house where john wilkes booth had stayed. stanton trying to prove not only the guilt of those eight defendants but to prove that they were working for richmond. in my view, this was a mistake. he should have waited to try to prove the richmond/booth connection and tilly and more evidence from richmond, canada -- connection until she had more evidence from richmond, canada. the commission convicted all of the defendants and sentenced four of them to die. five members of the commission wrote a petition to president

johnson recommending that mary of her age account and sex, not be executed. the sentences were not announced immediately in the newspapers because the prosecutor had to present the proposed findings and sentences to president johnson. johnson was ill. it took a couple of days. on the fifth of july, johnson finally had the meeting. menater years, the two fought, and their allies fought, down to this day historians fight about whether johnson was showed the petition regarding mary surratt. i will take a pass on that one. whether he did or not show the petition. we know that johnson confirmed the sentences, they were

announce the next day, the sixth of july, to take effect on the following day, the seventh of july, the four convicted defendants were executed on that day at about noon. endschapter of my book with the grim picture of the four bodies hanging from the gallows on that day. stanton himself only lived four more years. he died in december of 1869, just after being nominated and confirmed to the supreme court, a position he was never able to fill. dead, weeks after he was some newspapers were claiming that stanton had died by his own hand rather than bear the torture which was his own to bear from the execution of mary surratt.

the longer version of this story appeared a few years later in lack servantn's b was shaving stanton and then turned to see the razor slide across stan's throat. romantic stuff. -- dramatic stuff. octor wrote a long newspaper article listing all the people who were present that stanton died of congestive heart failure. former found stanton's servant and got affidavits from them about the circumstances of stanton's death, particularly that there were no/marks around his neck. published book was entitled "why was lincoln

murdered?" and the answer to that was simple -- stanton wanted him dead. book, stantonhe wanted lincoln out of the way because the two disagreed about reconstruction, and with lincoln gone stan could impose his own ideas. the book argued mainly through questions. why did that first message not mention john wilkes booth by name? why did stanton deny lincoln a stronger garden ford's theater? why did stanton not give strict orders that booth was to be captured and not killed? is it possible that stanton wanted booth dead so booth could not tell his tale, pointing toward stanton's own role? you get the general drift of it. serious historians were not

impressed. book,d not mention this but for the fact that in a sense this argument that stanton had a role in the assassination is alive and well. in a 2011 book by bill o'reilly -- andtin duque guard they resurrect the argument, using the same insinuation method. they suggest at one point that that if both lincoln and johnson were killed, that stanton himself could become president. that is nonsense. in placef succession provided that the order was president, vice president, the president pro tempore of the senate and the speaker of the

house of representatives. the secretary of war is not on the list. if there had been an election, everyone would have said there is no chance for stanton given all the things he has done to make them unpopular would be a candidate for president. that book, as some of you may recall, i am sure the ford's people know, there was a controversy about whether that book should be stocked in the bookstore at the ford's theater and the park service decided not to stock it, viewing it as not sufficiently serious. [applause] that is an appropriate point to applaud because i will end and field questions. seward questions, stanton questions, assassination questions, whatever you would like to ask about. [applause] yes.r: >> in your book you go over a

lot of the times he had disagreements with various generals. he had an opinion about everybody. he particularly had problems with william sherman in regards to atlanta, there was an issue where sherman issued an order about recruiting black laborers who were working with sherman's army. did stanton have an issue with sherman and did they have to have a meeting, or you have stanton going back to president lincoln, how many times was that occurring over the war and how to that complicate things? otherwise it became clear that sherman was probably not falling what the law was. as secretary of war, he has relations with all of the major generals and those range from reasonably warm in the case

of grant to atrocious in the case of mcclellan. sherman is somewhere in the middle. things,ical, tactical stanton and sherman see i die. ye, and sherman is grateful for the support the war department provides to him for the march from atlanta to the sea and the restocking in savanna and the march north end of the carolinas. the issue upon which stanton and sherman disagree is black soldiers. , from the time of the emancipation proclamation, even before the emancipation proclamation is keen to recruit blacks into the army and sherman will have none of it. areman believes that blacks not ready to be soldiers in his

army and he pretty much succeeds ensuringay through in that blacks are not part of his army. this is the issue, the main issue, there are other issues that lead stanton in early 1865 to get on a boat and go down to h and see sherman face-to-face to talk about this. of them agree two on what becomes sherman's most famous wartime's document, the special order number 15, which reserves the sea islands for blacks and says no whites can enter this space other than those with army passes. sherman liked it because it was going to keep the black refugees , who from his perspective were clogging the road, near it,nnah, and stanton liked

as did his philanthropic friends in the north because it created a temporary experiment in black self-government. -sherman relationship is the most complicated because it is neither black nor white. they get along well on some issues and not on this issue. >> a similar question. i noticed in the museum there was a single guard in the box. was shot,resident that guard was out getting a drink. was he ever identified and punished and was he ever tied in with the possible conspiracy with booth? walter: i do not know the answer to that. i think he was identified for sure. by the end of the investigation,

they are the names of almost everyone who was here in the theater. whether he was punished for by ourtion of duty, standards, the security around lincoln was ridiculously lax. stanton did talk with lincoln about this from time to time. the president said if somebody wants me dead they will kill me. it was not just that night was not security -- it just that night that the security around the president all the it was lax time, you could walk into the white house. written two interesting books which i have read, first about seward and stanton.t

the heart of your stanton book, you do not get into today, but that is his service during the lincoln administration and all that he did on recruitment and direction of the army, the organization of the bureaucracy, i think you have great insight in your book about what he did. in your book about seward referred to him as the indispensable man. it occurs to me, having read both books, that of the two, who could have replaced stanton, who could have done what he did in the way he did to lead lincoln's department of war? walter: midway through the stanton book, as i was thinking a little title, i felt like the man who published the complete book of running, and

when it came time to publish the sequel, he thought about what you would call it. at some point in 186418 65, someone asked him that question and he said if i 1865, -- in 1864 or because his health was bad, he said there were other men who could do what i was able to do. ldt was considered by lincoln as a potential secretary of war but i do not think he would have as effective as theton was in organizing war department, in organizing the army, in organizing the the northerng manpower and industrial advantages to bear steadily in fighting and reducing the south. i am not sure there were, as

stanton claimed, 100 men in the north you could do the job as well as he did. i think it is a small number who could have accomplished what he did in the war department. into stanton came lincoln's cabinet he was a war democrat. he ever actually changes political affiliation to that of a republican as he continued to support lincoln? walter: no. he lived here in the district of columbia, where one cannot vote for president and political lines. he was not a registered democrat because that concept did not exist. inhink if you had asked him 1864, when he spends a great deal of time on the lincoln reelection campaign, are you still democrat, he would say yes. i'm a union loving democrat like andrew johnson, like thousands of other union loving democrats

and i would support the union party. lincoln's second presidential campaign was not run as a "rep ublican," it was run as a union party candidate. this would've bee stanton's answer in the election of 1868, when he campaigned for grant against the democratic nominee, if he had been asked are you still democrat, he would've said i still believe those things i believed as a democrat but it is far more important to preserve the union and elect grant than to continue the policies of the -- of lincoln and elect grant. have read your new book, and i believe stanton and lincoln were together in some piece of litigation before the war and had some interaction. could you refresh my memory? actually -- is

stanton and lincoln are both lawyers. they are both hired on the same side of a patent case. the patent case was originally set for trial in illinois. lincoln was hired as a local expert, the guy who would tell you the judge's pet peeves, the case was then transferred to cincinnati. no one bothered to tell lincoln that he was not needed. so he showed up. .e know he was there his name is reported in the newspapers. stanton was there, they had some interaction. said, you can find it in dozens of books that stanton insulted lincoln at that time. stanton insulted a lot of people

a lot of the time. it is quite possible that he did , but when you look at the sources for that proposition, there is no letter from lincoln to his wife saying i have never been so insulted in my life as i was by that edwin stanton. there are letters from edwin stanton to his then fiance and soon-to-be wife describing what is going on and they do not even mention lincoln. they do not say anything like that contemptible lincoln. all of the sources are after both lincoln and stanton are long dead and they are of the nature of my uncle told me that -- i am not sure. they met in cincinnati, that they had that one brief period of work on that patent case together, yes they were there together. they did know one another. over here.

i need to alternate. yes? stanton was in the cabinets of two other administrations, johnson and buchanan. what is important to know about his service in the buchanan cabinet? after the election of lincoln, buchanan's cabinet starts to fall apart. needsds a lack -- he reliable democrats to fill short-term positions. --nds close friend jeremiah jeremiah black has been the attorney general and black says here is a reliable democrat, edwin stanton, make him the attorney general. in those days it does not take months for confirmation, it is instantaneous. i was looking forward to stanton as attorney general, i said there were going

to be interesting legal opinions and issues that he wrestled with -- no. non-. -- none. he wrestles with the issue of fort sumter. tohanan was debating whether hand the keys of fort sumter over to the southerners. the cabinet debated this issue at considerable length. it is reported in great detail in the newspapers and stanton, along with black, form the do not give in block of the buchanan cabinet. stanton reportedly told buchanan to his face that if he gave up fort sumter he would go down in american history with benedict arnold, another man who gave up another fort. he was not a man to mince words. his service in the buchanan cabinet is basically arguing buchanan out of things buchanan

is thinking of doing and pushing buchanan. we forget that before the firingts that led to the on fort sumter, there was the star of the west, and which buchanan tried to get arms into fort sumter and stanton was in favor of that. buchanan's spine is the short version of stanton service during the three months he serves as attorney general for buchanan. ofu refer to stanton's use military tribunals to try, convict, and execute the conspirators which happened in less than three months. was there ever a public outcry andthe use of a civil court any involvement in the supreme -- of the supreme court? walter: that was something --

you do a book like this, you do not make huge contributions to history but i thought that was a small contribution to history. i found a number of newspapers that criticized not only the fact that a trial would occur behind closed doors, but that it would be a military trial rather than a standard criminal trial in a civilian court. down a lotism died once the doors were opened and the newspapers had something to report. there was criticism at the time of the decision to use a military commission. first avenue stanton this was not a hard issue. from the day he became -- four stanton this was not a hard issue. from the day he became his staff used military commissions to try offenses against the law of war. spying for the confederates, sabotaging railroad bridges, but

some of them when you look at them you say that feels more political than a military crime. there were thousands of military on andions, not just near the battlefield, but in ohio, indiana, new york, massachusetts. trial ofme that the the booth conspirators came up, it was easy for stand. i do not have any documents in which he is considering the pros and cons. a jury in the district of columbia? he does not want to present his case to a jury of southern sympathizing residents of the district of columbia. he wants to present his case to a panel of generals who he chose and to answer to him. >> are you familiar with, and how ridiculous are, the conspiracy theories. one i read claimed that the guy

shot in the barn was not booth but somebody named boyd and that years later john wilkes booth was cited -- was sighted somewhere else. ,alter: i am slightly familiar because i mentioned in my talks, stanton foresaw this. knew that 20 years, 100 years later, there would be such theories. he did everything he could with the body of john wilkes booth in order to prove that this was john wilkes booth. he not only had doctors examine the body, he had john wilkes look at theist teeth and say this is john wilkes booth. body, there was a tattoo, jwb.

john wilkes booth was one of the most famous actors in america. when he walked into the theater, everyone would say that is john wilkes booth. impossible as almost that it was someone other than john wilkes booth whose body was shot at the barn and brought here and ultimately buried on stands instructions. youractually do think comment about the drug addiction with the research is very funny and very appropriate. i do not want to make it; was inappropriate. andhe point, since stanton chase were such intimate friends in the 1840's, what trajectory of friendship to they have during the lincoln administration while they are serving together? says, if youchelle had asked stanton on the day he

became a member of the lincoln cabinet, which of these people sitting around the table do you know, he would've said salmon chase. they had not been as close in the immediate run-up to the war. their politics had diverged dramatically. were close friends they were both self identified democrats. stanton remains a democrat, chase he comes a liberty party, than a free soil, then a republican. during the war there is not a lot of personal interaction. there are a few details, a letter in which stanton writes that one of his children is going to be baptized and he would like chase to be the godfather. there are more numerous or testy letters in which chase is cast ties think stanton for -- is chastising stanton for spending

money to rapidly and stanton is chastising chase for not providing money quickly enough to win the war. are -- i think they are two people who remember they were once friends and they have grown apart and if you weren't asked chase who are your best friends in washington, he would not have included, during the lincoln years, stanton on that list. i am told i have time for one last question. walter, how are you doing? it was interesting you talked about the generals having to answer to stanton. one of the things i found interesting was how little the generals thought they had to answer to stanton or lincoln. if we tried to run wars today

the way they ran wars then, it is insanity. lincoln and stanton would say do this and the generals would sit there. can you talk about that a little bit? walter: the prime example of this would be general george mcclellan in 1862. lincoln issues a presidential order -- the army shall move on washington's birthday. nothing happens. then lincoln and stanton press mcclellan to press on towards richmond, to capture richmond. he does, inch by inch. theve that this morning, original virginia creeper, creeping toward richmond. , and mcclellan is a prime example of this. because they were in the newspapers every day, they had a certain political power themselves.

they had political followers. they knew that they do not have to do everything washington ordered them to do. the means of communication were much more rudimentary than we have today. yes, there were telegraphs, but the telegram often went down and some generals were not beyond saying the telegraph lines were down when they had simply received in order they did not want to pay attention to. it is not just mcclellan. sherman, with respect to the black troops disregarded it and he was quite confident in his relationship to grant and his relationship with his brother, senator john sherman, and his power base in ohio, that he was not going to be stacked. -- he was not going to be sacked.

the generals in those days felt authoritylt much more to take telegrams from washington as advisory rather than as orders. i think i am done. we will have the panel of all six of us momentarily. [applause] >> thank you for announcing our panel. there will be a quick changeover. yet a few minutes to stretch and then we will jump right into the panel. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2018] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

>> while they adjust the stage for the final panel, some information about ford's theater. after president lincoln's assassination, the the a closed for more than 100 years. theater officially reopened as a national historic site in theater producing live performances. this is american history tv on c-span3.

>> we are ready. good afternoon. thank you for hanging out. we have had a splendid day of thought-provoking presentations. i teach politics and washington and proud i brought lincoln to the land of leave. i am also a board member of the lincoln institute. thank you for sticking around today. you had a few minutes to ask questions earlier, but there are

always a bunch more you want to ask. so, if you want to ask a question, we have live mics. please approach the mic. speak into the mic. the floor is open. we have 30 minutes. if nobody shows up, i will ask questions. we have our first question. >> about the monitor, i did see some later pictures of the civil war with monitors with two cheese boxes. ,hat i was wondering about was how many of those were there, and how did they keep from shooting themselves?

or later those turks will turn a wrong direction. turn ateturrets will wrong direction. >> what i will say is they did do a lot of testing. >> i would hope. >> even on the original monitor they would test how far forward they could fire. later they had the pilothouse on turret.rett were orchestrated. unliked speaking tubes, the original monitor where they did not work, the later ones they were able to communicate

more effectively and there were in some cases markings to let them know their bearings so that they were not firing at themselves. one of the best two i have ever seen to get back to the pop-culture part was a toy done .n the 1980's absolutely the ligh delightful little thing on wheels. >> do you have any idea how many were manufactured. >> one was built in brooklyn. had two, but class that would not have made it because the war was ending and it was not a need. you also have some in other countries, but i don't know the exact number. there were over 60 under contract by the end of the war. the exact number is around 67. thank you.

stage left, please. >> i was wondering if we could hear some discussion between mr. starr and our monitor-expert here. to lincoln's response to the monitor crisis and stanton's response as well. [laughter] stanton, did he panic? panic.'t he came close to panicking that they. confederate warship had just destroyed half a dozen northern ships and it seemed likely it could destroy half a dozen ships every day for the next two years

and the union fleet would be destroyed. he was also annoyed. he felt that the navy had fallen down. we have all this industrial might and did not have a ship down there face-to-face in hampton roads. so he in his typical weight took things into his own hands and decided it was necessary to close the potomac river. when out and went down to the through tried to close down the potomac. he also took matters into his own hands and sent a telegram to cornelius vanderbilt

saying name your price to destroy the merrimack. they work on a ship that became the vanderbilt, a reinforced he was tremendously annoyed. here is the army building a warship. the far better response was the monitor, but stanton started doing things. he wasn't going to let him bumble incompetently. >> bringing up gideon welles, a one thing people are not aware of as the monitor was making her way to hampton roads, she almost received orders to proceed directly to washington dc.

there was a dispatch boat chasing the monitor down from new york to try to intercept her her toert her from washington dc. before she came out, a storm delayed the virginias first foray into hampton roads, but also sank a monitor on the way down. while there orders were go captain you had the from the uss roanoke who countermanded those and said the best place to protect washington is right here. i don't have any real information on lincoln's exact reaction to the battle, other than he was annoyed that stanton was peering out the curtains the monitor to come

up the merrimack. .he never would have made it she probably would have been ripped apart by the fire there. in any event, he was looking up the curtain, wasn't he? let's go backstage left. what did president lincoln do when he ran out of troops, soldiers? [laughter] um, a lot of us could talk to that. a draft andted created a system to require all men between the ages of 18-45 to register, and they were going to interest them whether they wanted to volunteer or not, and

that encouraged a lot of men who had been thinking about it to actually volunteer. >> which followed the confederate conscription act which came earlier. were a lot of people in the military who did not want to go home and beat subjected to the draft. so theyre volunteers, stayed, but in the end the draft brought in about 60,000-70,000 men, and some of them were not very good troops. result of the draft, but the indirect result and lot of men volunteered towns volunteered to give them bonuses. to encourage people to volunteer. some people volunteered for the navy because they thought it was safer. >> thank you for your question.

>> through an on pair of circumstances, i am a good friend of the great-grandson of ulysses s. grant and jefferson davis, and we get into conversations about what would have happened in the south with reconstruction if lincoln had lived. i was wondering if any of you would care to speculate what the differences would have been in the south on race relations had lincoln been in charge rather than johnson. . >> i've work on reconstruction and i am often asked that question. historians do not speculate on what might happen. [laughter] , if lincolnid that had been in charge, he would have been in control and he

would if perhaps compromise some with congress. after all johnson was an obstructionist, and he was not lincoln, so lincoln would have pretty much still control the situation, which is where it was at the end of war, that is reconstruction. i won't say he would've been easy on the south, but he would that emancipation would have been sustained and all that. >> lincoln's reconstruction policy started out pretty conservative, but i do think as my colleague has indicated, that lincoln would have on along with reconstruction rather than abstract it.

obstruct it.n abstract >> when i was a student in the dark ages it was standard interpretation of the civil war and reconstruction that lincoln had proposed a moderate humane set of reconstruction policies and that his successor was simply trying to carry those out and he got crucified by congress and impeached and almost removed, and the same thing probably would've happened to lincoln. most historians would not agree with that these days. one of the most from at it pieces of evidence for that is that as soon as the confederacy 9 withpped on april lee's surrender, lincoln two days later offers a new set of proposals, that is black

suffrage has to be part of the package. earlier he goted murdered for suggesting up publicly. he had suggested that earlier to the governor of louisiana in a private letter. the notion that andrew johnson was just carrying out lincoln's reconstruction policy is only accurate if you think that lincoln's proposal was the proposal he would've continued to pursue. demonstrably doubtful that is the case. >> yes. i am wondering if you can comment on lincoln's relationship with african-americans and on his n whether his being an abolitionist are not. i know that his parents, they moved to indiana to get away

from the state of kentucky, but maybe you have comment on that. i have read some differing accounts as to his first 20 years in kentucky and indiana and how his parental influence may have influenced him in terms of his relationship with blacks and abolitionists. >> lincoln's parents belong to a church that band slaveholders for membership. they come as you said, moved to indiana, but as far as i know in viewss lincoln's's view hurts that slavery heard wages. lincoln's relation with abolitionists, he said he was not an abolitionist. abolitionists and he was not an abolitionist.

stephen douglas kept insisting that lincoln is really an abolitionist and has the same views as abolitionists and wants to establish black rights like an abolitionists, but lincoln was not. he was opposed to slavery, and ,ike most moderate republicans he is going to allow slavery to remain in the south indefinitely. say thatjust going to it is hard for us to remember, but the word abolitionist was an insult. even in the south southerners would call other southerners and abolitionists. . it was a way of saying you're more moderate on the slavery issue than i am. very few people would raise their hand then and say i am an abolitionist. it was a tiny minority.

, but not only lincoln seward and chase -- no, i am not an abolitionist. i am opposed to the extension of slavery, but i am not an abolitionist. >> i think it is helpful to clarify the difference between being an abolitionist and being anti-slavery. i am a political scientist. we have to remind ourselves that we don't have simply one form of government in the united states. we have state governments and national government, and the national government has only been empowered by the american people to do so many things. the lions share of the political power remains at home, the police powers to promote the safety, health, welfare, and morals of the community. to say lincoln would leave slavery alone commit he is leaving at alone because he has no power in those areas. thefront burner question in

1850's is what power does congress have over slavery? it has power in those areas where all the states are involved. the importation of slaves, and the question of whether slaves should go into the federal territories. that is the beef he gets into a stephen douglas. the congress also has power over the internal slave trade, but that was a massive third rail in politics and no one was ruling to touch it because of what it might do to the union. students, to teach my what a 30 does lincoln have, and one thing you see consistent with lincoln throughout his public career is that he is trying to remind the american people the difference between personally what we wish would happen was slavery and officially what lincoln or douglas or any president or senator could do with regards to the institution of slavery. national, slavery local,

which is to say domestic institution of the state. i don't know if anybody wants to comment on my statement. what to do you think of it? [laughter] >> i agree with the statement in terms of what the president could constitutionally do or the congress could constitutionally do, but there were abolitionists , radicals, dissolve the union, and dissolve the union means the u.s. army will not be able to back up the masters if there is a slave revolt and their idea is that there will be a mass slave revolt that will into slavery -- end slavery. by and smith went interpretation of the constitution that said the constitution does give congress and the president power to abolish slavery. >> frederick douglas agreed with that. >> all right, stage left,

please. with respect to the raid, to burn richman or kill or capture the cabinet. i am curious to what degree stanton and/or lincoln were aware of these orders, if they were at all. hot potato. >> i think i may be the one who has written most recently about this. dohe was the son of a well-known admiral, a person that stands new and lincoln knew that it, so i come down is quite possible that he had face to face discussions with stanton and lincoln that aren't reflected in the official orders , but may well be reflected in

the papers. importance of it to me is not so much what lincoln or raidsn did, but after the the confederates believe that lincoln and stanton had targeted the confederate leadership for assassination. if the confederate government had any role in supporting booth and the conspirators, they did so because of the raid, which they viewed as sort of tearing up the laws of war and declaring this war was not going to be far according to the usual rules of war. the young lady right there reminded me of something i i have often wondered about. the union navy had a higher percentage of african american sailors than the army did soldiers.

washington's continental army was 3% african-american. there was a whole regimen of black troops commanded by nathanael greene's cousin. moreavy, while it is liberal during the war, after the war it bans them. they why did the navy completely why did the navy completely reverse itself after the war? >> that is a good question. [laughter] >> i'm not sure i have an answer for that. >> i have a piece of an answer, which is blacks had been serving in the navy, i don't know starting win, but they were an of the navy ast the civil war started, and the black role in the navy was used as an argument as to why black should be allowed to become soldiers.

they do become soldiers during the war, but it is not surprising in the way that the percentages were lower in the army than in the navy, because in the way the navy started a step ahead of the army at the outset of the civil war, but after the war, i don't know the answer as to why the navy becomes sort of a lily white institution by the time of theodore roosevelt. actually i can address that. there was a quote of before the war. it was 4%. no commissioned officers of navy in the color. there were people like robert smalls and others who were taken in. so i don't think the percentage was exactly right on that. fromrms of the army itself they accepted the figures, a lot of them stayed in the army. plus, you have the merchant marine, which even more than the

navy was integrated, and there were officers of color in terms threeation to that too, separate groups, plus a fourth factor which stanton dealt with, the militia act, which literally banned before the war people of color being in state militias from a witch that had to be overturned in relation to having african-american recruitment. i think someone asked about numbers in the draft. the draft is done for two reasons. it was done to encourage and this meant, but black troops count toward state quotas, so that was another inducement to enlist after 1863, so a lot of different factors going on in relation to that, and i thought i could clarify some of that. >> i think that is the reason the ohio governor, a union republican supporter, changed his mind about lack enlistment

-- black enlistment. it would count. >> one thing missing from glory was that it was heavily composed of men from ohio because they were not able to enlist because the governor would not allow it. my entireost took question. it is very closely related. my question is, because i have read a lifetime of reading about lincoln. on have the most influence lincoln in terms of accepting the idea that recruiting black soldiers from various estate regiments or otherwise was a practical idea for winning the civil war? when did he come to that realization, even though he was clearly not an abolitionist, lincoln came to that conclusion that this is a great idea and i will put 250,000 troops in the field. that could be the final element

that could win the war. is anyn't think there way to measure just when that decision was made to we know when it was officially announced , the final emancipation proclamation, and it is hard to know from my research who could be pointed to as the person most persuasive. i am willing to defer to my colleagues. that ite a vague memory in general's come officers the field, who took the initiative, and lincoln told a couple of them they should not do it, but this starts the ball rolling, i think. >> let me add a footnote. when the generals in the field said going it, stanton ahead and do it, but don't tell us. >> i think this was true of

louisiana where there was a general that wanted to use black first he was shut down, and then butler begin to realize we are unable to defend new orleans without more troops to come and the war department is not giving them to us, so ,herefore we will give a signal a green light, that they can recruit these black troops, and they started recruiting them. >> i would say coming back to the question of responsibility that even after the final emancipation proclamation calls for black troops, in lincoln's mind it is still an experiment, and the black soldiers prove themselves in places like fort ofson, and at that point lincoln and stanton begin to throw even more resources and relies what a force this can be

come so you could credit the black troops themselves for proving what black troops could do. >> i would like to add to that. i do know that right after the of july, after governor yates sobered up, he wrote a letter to the president demanding stricter measures, harsher measures, and to recruit all loyal men, so i think this was coming also from his state think theors, and i governor of massachusetts and some of the other new england governors all chimed in with this, and that would have added to his decision. >> we have time for one more question. >> so not to cut your own throat, but as historians of civil war, what research would you personally like somebody else to do, something you are

really wishing was written but has not been written yet? [laughter] >> well, this morning we heard a long discussion of the crisis based on papers in a remote library in maine. i would love it if someone would go to maine and do what michael has done, namely to mine that that.eate i have done it a little bit for seward and stanton, and i guess i will have to do it again for chase, but it would be a tremendous resource if someone would go through that and publish it. i have a variety of other projects, but i will yield after that. >> i and really interested in what happened immediately after come all the mess left in waterways. .articularly in hampton roads

after the war, you have to reopen those waterways. i am researching about that now, but i would love if somebody would delve into all the army corps of engineers papers at the and really doves a comprehensive survey of all of the cleanup after the war. a couple of lincoln-focus would like to see done, first of all identifying what lincoln wrote anonymously for illinois newspapers. stab at it informally in the green monster, but it needs to be done more systematically come and that's the project i hope to get to in the near future. another one is to compile what lincoln said according to civil war newspapers, because there is

an awful lot of information within civil war newspapers reporting what think and said, and i use a lot of that in the green monster, that it needs to be systematically done and compiled in a way similar to what was done in recollected words, reported words, and it would be an online version, an electronic version, so you could have footnotes to discuss why this is more plausible than that and the likes. if i live long enough, i will get those done. >> michael, how about a new history of illinois during the civil war, the whole civil war period from the 1850's through reconstruction. >> absolutely. this is the bicentennial of illinois statehood. of thethe faculty board university of illinois press, and i was astounded there is no new history to do a of illinois based on information

generated in the centuries since done, so that should be done. >> all right, that concludes this session. we have a presentation next. thank you so much. stick around. [applause] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2018]

>> hello again. i am speaking here to represent the book prize committee of the abraham lincoln institute. during this past year, the book prize committee composed of myself as chair and others

considered a number of lincoln-related titles published in the previous year for the ali book prize for 2018, and in committees like this, as you can imagine, all kinds of opportunities for disagreement, ness,asant disillusion, betrayal, can --acy, all those easily in the garden of a committee for a book prize. on this occasion, it didn't. the three of us were unanimous in the recommendation we made to the board of the abraham lincoln institute that the price should be awarded for the book lincoln's sense of humor, and we were deadly serious about it. [laughter] >> you will see why when you read the book, and in fact,

could richard be with us today, he would explain some the details of it. not, so it falls to me to read to you a brief condensation of the comments he even here deliver had this afternoon with assault to receive the prize personally, so let me adopt his voice. i cannot quite hold the accent someonet would to whose -- so you may imagine richard in this place. i want to begin by saying how truly sorry i am not to be here today to accept this prize. it is a bitter disappointment not to be able in person to

thank the board of the abraham lincoln institute for conferring an award that has both surprised and delighted me in equal measure. i was often asked why write a book on lincoln's humor. the question i suspect conceal the sense that the subject lacks gravitas, yet i believe people are as revealing about themselves when being funny as when they are being serious. ,t was plato who reflected serious things cannot be grasped without ridiculous ones, and no one indulged in humor more than lincoln. it was an intrinsic element of the man, a way of life, and a habit of mind. essentialed his it humanity and since of proportion and his understanding of human foibles. breaker, the mold first president consistently to make storytelling and laughter tools of the office.

no occupant of the white house has sense matched his talent in this respect him and not least reputation for too much and jocularity has been deemed politically damaging. i want to interject this moment just to reinforce that contrast. the memory of george washington, of whom it was said people observed that he smiled only one time in his life, and only on one occasion was he ever heard to laugh. whichwas however a dinner governor morris and alexander hamilton had a deal they worked out before hand. governor morris, who was rake, hadof a wagered that he could make free with washington. had dinner, he wheeled around and said to washington, and wasn't it that way, old boy, and clapped washington on the back.

washington turned and looked at stare thatdeath would have made darth vader quiver. [laughter] >> no, presidents were not supposed to be jokers. the book, to continue with richard's comment, the book was inspired by a revealing remark lincoln made to david ross, an ohio newspaperman and satirists of the copperheads. his comic work centered on a copperhead grotesque, the petroleum -- a pastor of a proslavery church, a drunken, greedy, racist. he used him to ridicule disloyal opponents of the administration delighted lincoln. for the genius to write things he told the author, i would gladly give up my office.

thepleasure he took and assault on racial prejudice and anti-emancipation sentiment speaks for humans about the springs of his own humor. satire is value-laden. lincoln admired the great critical force of satire. my study of lincoln's humor has four broad purposes. first, it considers the lincoln's range of comic taste. lincoln relish pretty much every form of the jocular. his appetite embraced a tall tales and absurdity at one to know the spectrum am a and wordplay and the light and the plasticity and surprises of language at the other. in between, he loved quick wit and he, logical fallacy, satire, and notoriously dirty jokes and stories. , perhaps most, of the stories that lincoln told, as

acquaintances lightly put it, would not do exactly for the drawing room. family, friends, and colleagues agreed that course, vulgar, and earthy stories with a mainstay of his humor, remarked upon by family, friends, and colleagues. youoln was asked, why do not write out your stories and put the minute book? he'd true himself up, fixed his face as if a thousand dead carcasses were shooting all their stench into his nostrils and said, such a book would stink. like a thousand privies. showed how lincoln's humor evolved over the course of his life. lincoln occasionally resorted to cruel humor, not simply to put his opponents on the defensive but to crush and humiliate them. , a resource hurt that when deployed with

satirical edge could have a withering effect. one experience in particular in september 1842 would teach him the value of self-censorship in restraint. it was prompted by his ridicule of the state auditor, 36-year-old james shields, in the pages of a newspaper. , an impetuous man on a short fuse, had good reason to rage at a damaging assault on his character. he challenged lincoln to a duel, which lincoln reluctantly accepted. we cannot be sure how far lincoln intended the dark humor that lurked in his selection of weapons, cavalry broad sorts of the largest highest precisely equal in all respects. . eight inches taller than shields, he would have a huge advantage.

lincoln counted the cost on his reputation. never again would he write satire.g, anonymous he recognize that taken to an offensive extreme, ridicule could damage its author as well as its victim. the books third aim is to explore the purposes of lincoln's humor. lincoln's stories were carefully and purposely deployed. they served as a means of empowerment, of imposing himself on others. lincoln relished the role of entertainer and was invigorated at. he did not assess the actors ease of movement, but had a gift for squeezing the most humor out of his material and delivering a punchline. he dominated gatherings. humor acted as a health savings salve.

is notorious for an ability to depression were two sides of the same coin. laughter was a therapeutic antidote to the grievous, low spirits to which he was prone. lincoln explained, if it were not for the stories, jokes, jess, i should die. they give vent. they are fence of my moods in my gloom. humor also served as a means of self-deprecation and subtle attack. like many successful and reflective humorous, lincoln knew how to win over an audience by self-mockery, taking a joke at his own expense. it gave rise to a yarn that as he was splitting rails, he found himself looking down the gun barrel of a passerby who explained that he had promised to shoot the first man he met who was uglier than himself. getting a good look at the man's whilelincoln remarked bearing his chest, if i am

uglier than you, then blaze away. this kind of humor encourage people to see him as a natural artifice, able to engage on equal terms with ordinary farmers and laborers. his habit of self-deprecation help to enlist an audience on the side of the underdog. throughout his political wrestling with douglas, he regularly assume the identity of a modest provincial facing the thedwide renown of democrats prime hope for the white house, who enjoyed the status of being a very great man , while he himself was a very small man. the heavy irony of his language intensified with the site of the diminutive giant standing next to the elongated lincoln. humor also provided a means of diversion or extrication from

political awkwardness. one of the president's most stressful tasks as leader of the new administration in 1861 was dealing with the avalanche of applicants for government posts. he was bombarded with far more requests than he had jobs. to day a delegation called urge the appointment of an acquaintance as commissioner for the sandwich islands, the hawaiian islands. they earnestly emphasize not only his fitness for the post them about his poor health, which would benefit from the climate. the president closed the ,nterview with affected regret gentlemen, i am sorry to say that there are eight other applicants for that place, and they are all sicker than your man. [laughter] else, however, lincoln story served as a colorful means of instruction and elucidation. they gave him the means of

driving home political arguments with engaging economy, finding himself with the support of only one cabinet member during a affairl phase of the when britain threatened war of the union navy seizure of confederate envoys from a british ship, he recalled the drunk who strayed into an illinois church and fell asleep in the front pew. he slumbered on as the revivalist asked, who are on the lord's side. the congregation responded by rising en mass when the preachere. inquired who are on the devil side, the sleeper stirred, but not fully grasping the inquiry and sing the minister on his feet, he stood up. i don't fully, understand the question, but i will stand on to theu pars

last, but it seems to me, he added, we are in a hopeless minority. i have to stop again because there is another story of this very sort which i have two confesses my favorite lincoln story. on one occasion, a radical senator from ohio came down from capitol hill to the white house with a full head of political steam marched into the white house up the stairs, into lincoln's office and begin to tell lincoln all the things he was doing wrong. lincoln leaned back and said, senator, that reminds me of a story. wade said, i am so sick and tired of hearing your stories. do you not know that help is not is not a milehell off? lincoln said, senator, isn't that the distance between here and the capital.

[laughter] 's purpose is to consider the consequences of lincoln as a humorous. supporters seized on his use of humor to show how an occupant of the white house could remain a genial man of the people. to the ordeal of wartime office, his supporters wove his habit of telling stories into his character. newspapers drew attention to the .resident's latest story lincoln's private secretary cultivated a warm relationship with several journalists and supplied them with examples of the presidents wit. valueting out the moral of lincoln storytelling, his supporters sought to counter opponents'disdain for a chief

majesty it whose taste for jokes they declared made him unfit for his position. both confederates and critics in the union be rated lincoln a smutty joker. the common charge was his appetite for low jokes revealed a lack of gravitas, that he used humor to mask his deficiencies. his jokes measured his cruel disregard for the victims of war. lincoln, the heartless buffoon, came a recurrent theme. it is impossible to determine precisely how lincoln's reputation as a joker shaped the political balance sheet in 1864, that the administration supporters included many who found the presidents levity distasteful indicates for the them the matter was not decisive, but his opponent so great a literal opportunity. lincoln well understood how his

reputation for levity could damage him. in time after his death his the peerlesss storyteller, joe taylor, would take on a character wholly positive and the nine. -- and benign. that was not the reality during the dark days of war. lincoln since of humor then must be taken seriously. in his strenuous nurturing of the republic, he drew on history teacher wisdom, clarity of principle, skill in political management am a grasp of human psychology, and physical and mental strength. to these ingredients we should add his remarkable sense of humor, his ability to see the absurd side of life was a measure of his well-developed humanity. it gave him the sense of proportion that all presidents need if they are to elevate

their office into the realm of statesmanship. god bless you, richard, and bring you back to us again. thank you. [applause] >> and i was told that i am now to introduce once again our president, john white. [applause] thank you all for coming today and for participating in today's events. we have a production here of the iz at 7:30: so i will try to wrap up my remarks by 7:00 p.m. so they can get that going. [laughter] >> the staff have been remarkable for working all day to put this on, and they have to stay through the wiz as well. please adjoining me