upcoming authors and book festivals. and the american history tv weekly newsletter gives you the upcoming programming exploring our nation's past. visit spcspan.org/connect and sn up today. later this week the senate intelligence committee holds the confirmation hearing for president trump's pick to head the cia, gina haspel. that's wednesday morning at 9:30 a.m. eastern and you can see it live here on c-span 3. also online, cspan.org and on the c-span radio app. >> new america hosted a discussion on countering violent extremism and efforts to deradicalize the nation of islam following the 1975 death of its leader elijah muhammad. new american vice president peter bergen moderated the discussion with former intelligence analysts.

>> good morning. or good afternoon, or good morning. good morning still. welcome to new america, i'm peter bergen, i run the international security program here and we're really delighted to be the place where muhammad fraser-rahim is going to present some of the key findings from his -- from his new report. dr. fraser-rahim used to work for the department of homeland security, the director of national intelligence, the national counterterrorism center so he has had a long career in government. he earned his ph.d. last year from howard and then commenting

after dr. fraser-rahim is yaya fanusie who is at the foundation for the defense of democracies. he also had a distinguished career in government, working as both an economic and counterterrorism analyst for the central intelligence agency. so i'm going to hand it over to dr. fraser-rahim and he will basically set the table for our discussion. thank you. >> great. good morning. i hope everyone is doing well. i'm going to try to -- i particularly have some powerpoints i'm going to try to use and put up, if not we will have a backup plan for that as well. i want to thank first and foremost peter, along with new america foundation including david sturman who were graciously allowed us to be able to come here to engage on what i think is an important topic. this topic in particular is

dealing with the experience of african-american muslims and the report in particular i should start off with my organization, i work with now, quilliam is the oldest and first counter extremism organization in the world, workers composed of former extremists themselves. the work that i currently do i head our efforts in all of north america engaging in our africa portfolio, too, as well. but i think this opportunity that we have today is engaging on a critical issue dealing with the oldest muslim community in the united states. so as a student i studied throughout west africa and senegal, mali, guinea, sierra leone, i studied in traditional islamic centers of learning in the middle east as well and one of the most important things that came up when i was there was to eat kushidi, egyptian food.

but i bring this up, this is very local to the -- to being in the middle east, in egypt, et cetera, but we say that if you had not had a bean pie in the united states of america you haven't experienced islam in the united states. i think that that framing is important because african-american muslims, the descendents of enslaved africans have been in the united states of america since its inception. so this report builds off of the great contribution of the work of enslaved africans leaving west africa coming to the united states by force and with them these individuals brought with them a nonviolent spiritual form of islam that has been in the united states since its inception, some scholars say roughly between 15 to 30% of the enslaved africans came from muslim lands like in senegal and mali and nigeria which is very important to highlight to understand the context.

so as a child growing up in charleston, south carolina, i was the beneficiary of agalagici tradition which is very much the experience of enslaved africans while slil preserving culture in the low country of south carolina and georgia, as well as studying and memorizing the koran as a young boy in charleston. that experience and that journey is important in light of the contemporary narrative of islam being something different and foreign, away from the american experience. i think it was at the funeral last year of muhammad ali that dr. sherman jackson who said very eloquently that with the death of muhammad ali that in his death there should be no question of the compatibility between islam and being american, being muslim and american. what ali did and many others was basically make it very visible

for the american experience to see that there is muslim presence, muslim influence. so muhammad ali, kareem abdul-jabbar, dave chappelle, mark rock, these are well known individuals that with an african-american communities they happen to be muslim that are used to multiple faith traditions within muslim -- within families of african-american experience. even in the relation of pop music and hip hop you see the influence of african-american muslim identity as well. so i framed that just to give you a context to understand that american muslims themselves and particularly african-american muslims, have been engaging in a conversation of being both american and muslim from the very beginning and this journey from that period onwards. so there essentially was this gap before i get into the report

it's important to frame the conversation. dr. yang professor emerita maem howard university calls it a 60-year gap between african islam and african-american islam. the traditions, the cultures, that you're used to many people of islamic identity, of practice, following of the various schools of islamic thought, whether they are in the arabian peninsula or on west africa. with the journey coming into america we have a very new identity emerging with the rise of proet toe islamic movements, if you will. elements of islamic identity that incorporated the nation of islam, that incorporated the influence of the ak ma dia movement as well. it's important to realize that the development of islam in america was certainly very much the result of ak ma dee i can't

missionaries in the united states at the turn of the century in the 1900s he was instrumental in the establishment of islamic identity in the states. i say that in light of certainly the blasphemy laws and issues in pakistan large by, but this is a very interesting to show you this fusion, this melting pot of islam coming into the american experience. so african-american muslims journ journeying into this experience have engaged in this existence, looking for spirituality, looking for purpose. in that journey we saw the development of the nation of islam. now, to make a very sort of complex story very short, to simplify it, in 1975 the late iman muhammad led the largest conversion of americans to sunni islam. very individuals are familiar

with the nation of islam for its rhetoric in black nationalism, its rhetoric of give igs and segregation after the experience of jim crow laws, the result of the american inn counter with race relations. w.d. muhammad was the upon of elijah muhammad who essentially instituted radical reforms to reject his father's teachings and usher in a community that has currently over 300 mosques throughout the united states and the caribbean, that also has the oldest islamic institution in the united states as well and is a model that has judges, lawyers, former counterterrorism analysts, intelligence officers, individuals who are diplomats, individuals who are businessmen who have been -- and congressmen in the united states as well, particularly congressman carson, too, as well to demonstrate this

specific plan by the late muhammad to create an inclusive pluralistic islam that says that you can be both american and muslim. so his reform methods, one, an ideological -- or ideological reform, one, rejecting the teachings of his father and rejecting it in a way where he was also offering an alternative to self-empowerment, creating this sense of worth in meaning for many african-americans who were affected by healing, a sense of victimhood and dee humanization in light of the racial disparate operating in the united states as well. three, a healthy sense of patriotism and citizenship. there is an arabic phrase that says [ speaking foreign language ] the love of country is a part of

faith, very well known through the islamic tradition and taught by muhammad the pro feft. the late imam muhammad encouraged a sense of patriotism and citizenship and as a result this is why we have the first american judges coming from this community, the first american congressmen coming from this community, the first american elected officials coming from this community. so this formula, one in which individuals could easily stay in a face of frustration and anger, wanting to carry out actions against the state that we see as part of grievances individuals use through the larger broader muslim world and broader islamic world, imam muhammad was able to institute mechanisms in phrasing to say, yes, you can have legitimate grievances, channel it true the constitutional efforts of the united states and do it in a productive way, you can be vocal about it but also

recognize that you are part of this society, that there is no other place that you're going to go back home to. that, in fact, as americans, in fact, as muslims, you owe a responsibility to do something as well. you can be critically -- you can be critical of issues and policies, but recognize that where you are in the society, where you are in this united states of america is part of where you are and where you should be going for the future as well. and just those just examples right there are just some of the mechanisms in framing of what w.d. muhammad was able to institute as well. i will close out with this and we will have much more time for q & a, is that i think that the formula of particularly what humid and what he offered in the report and it's now readily available is one in which other western and larger muslim communities throughout the united states -- throughout the world, they can borrow from. of how can communities address

issues of critical -- of complaints? the african-american community, regardless of being muslim or not, has been very much one that has dealt with issues of police brutality. the community has dealt with the issue of what they've seen as surveillance. and so what the experience of this community has said is that, listen, the government, state security services will have to do their job, entrapment is a cool that law enforcement will use, absolutely, as part of that apparatus, as part of that engagement. what needs to take place also is that also engaging critically in a manner where you can have a dialogue of pushing back on a policy level, but also recognizing that this is also part of what law enforcement,

intelligence service, state security services are going to be engaged in anyway. so constructive dialogue and looking for solutions as well. i will stop there because i think there's much more that we will potentially cover as well and particularly some of the recommendations that we offer as well. thank you. >> good morning, everyone. i'm just going to follow up with muhammad, riff off of what he has ton and say a few words before we get into the q & a to do two things, one, to give some context, historical context to this movement, to this community and then say a little bit -- give some personal insights and maybe context liesing my personal experience will help us get into the discussion. so, number one, first i think it's important to provide -- to

have this historical context in terms of how islam has spread throughout history. you've always had throughout islamic history new muslim communities springing up, right, throughout asia, throughout africa, where often you had small communities who maybe were not really connected to the islamic tradition in much death, there were a lot of sin democratic practices, you had often illiterate communities and then islam would grow later and get deeper later, but that engagement with what we would think of like the true islamic sources, the koran, the suna, the example of the prophet usually happens with some connection to the established religious authority. that's how islam really spread, how you got new small communities become established in their islamic or con ran nick identity. that's usually how it happened. this was the process of islam

spreading, this always happened, but there was a difference in 1975 which is what muhammad refers to. in 1975 something happened which had never happened in the history, i would say, i'm not a historian but my wife a is a historian and ave he learned a lot from her. what happened in 1975 was for the first time you had a large collective body of new muslims start to engage the islamic text and develop an authentic islamic identity without the prodding of -- or the influence of the established ulima. that had never happened before. so the mid '70s in the midst of the cold war, on the cusp of globalization, changing world, changes in communication, unique in the middle of the world's most powerful country, right, the united states, was birthed a very unique islamic identity and it's interesting that this happened in the context of the

african-american community. now, why might this have happened? my thought is if you think about the african-american community and our history, the african-american community as you referred to dr. yang saying there is this gap. the african-american identity is one that has been cut off, cut off from history, even though there was traditions and a historical connection, but to say african-american which specific country are you talking about. it's very hair, only in some situations can you trace it. so you had this new identity of a new -- really a new people and it makes sense, if you think about it, that for islam to grow within this community, you're going to have something very unique. so for the first time you had, again, this community where islam was even in the face of sort of racial oppression and the legacy of, you know, racial oppression and these things, you

had islam growing. you had people taking on this identity, but they did it in a way -- and this is due to imam muhammad's sort of example in how he sort of helped this community grow where the islamic identity was you being comfortable in your own skin. and i would paucity is that this community's example may be the reform movement that people especially in the post 9/11 period people are asking about and talking about as if it never exists, but it actually has been here. just in the "new york times" a couple days ago they had a piece about authorize tear i can't tichl in the muslim world and this is causing people to leave, this drives people away from islam. talk about saudi arabia, what nbs is doing, talks of reform. a lot of these voices are coming out of the, quote/unquote, muslim world experience.

it's interesting to note that this real islamic reform which had been cut off, independent from the ulima with this african-american muslim community, has been operating, developing an islamic in that was comfortable and has been overlooked. and it probably was overlooked because the islamic reform that people are looking for or the body that people think this should show up in didn't look like what they thought it would look like. it didn't look like someone who was trained and went to oxford and bridged the islamic experience and western experience. doesn't mean that the community was not engaging. muhammad wasn't engaging scholars, right? we weren't cut off in that sense, but the direction happened in a very independent way, independent thinking about islam, independent thinking about how you approach the koran, how you approach the

prophet's example. that happened when most of the muslim world was not even thinking about that because they were too connected, too attached to their tradition, which we can still respect, we can still respect that history, but it was the breaking off of the paern identity that allowed a different american islam. and so i will end by saying so what does this mean for us? this means something to me personally. muhammad -- i think we've got a great example here, great model here because, muhammad, you were born and raised, third, fourth generation muslim, in south carolina. i was raised in the west coast, my mother is from -- is african-american born in new york and my father is from west africa. i was not raised muslim. i converted to islam in college. and i came out of an is experience where i sort of came to islam as a young adult and it was really seen in the community that really merged and made my identity as a muslim american harmonious. so i guess hopefully we will talk a little bit more about

that, but those are my words and my experience. >> thank you both. very, very super interesting opening comments. one actual question, a third of muslims in the united states are african-american, is that correct? >> yes. >> is that well understood, do you think? >> i should actually start off to say that imam talit cherif, the resident imam of the nation's mosque, the oldest mosque built by indigenous muslims in the united states and washington his sister passed away so he couldn't be here. the statistics are changing. in 2011 the pugh data poll, 2015, it showed that african-american muslims were roughly around 33% south asian muslims are roughly about 28%. arab muslims obviously continue to be less than those numbers as

well. i think quite frankly now in african-americans the numbers are probably maybe a little less in light of probably immigration issues or immigration of individuals coming from different countries and so it may be a little less than that, but it's right around that at the present time. >> i mean, am i right in thinking that when americans think of muslims they think of arab americans or south asian americans, they tend to think of that, is that correct? >> absolutely. i mean, listen, i think that there is a slow -- if we had to be honest -- there is a slow erasure of african-american islam. if you look at the pundits on tv, the commentary that is on television, despite our background having served our country, written, co-wrote hundreds of presidential daily briefs and strategic assessments we were actually mistaken as each other several times when we were in government. >> are you muhammad? >> we don't look the same.

but this happened. but, no, i think that, you know, i think that the conversation has shifted in light of perhaps this idea of american muslim exceptionalism which i push back off of. i think roughly 45% according to 2015-2011 data pool show that 45% of american muslims are at or below the poverty line. so it challenges this notion that all americans are wealthy. yes, many are well to do, very successful, i'm on the board of the american islam heritage museum that's right here in washington, d.c. in southeast, in anacostia that documents the history of the entire muslim experience, but is that voice heard? is that narrative being shown? is it seen? not as much as it should be. >> you know, you've said, muhammad, something very interesting which is this idea

that you could be nationalist i can and still be muslim because obviously osama bin laden would only -- he means the entire uma, the entire community of believers which he presents himself as certainly defending. how would osama bin laden react to some of the things you've just said and these ideas? >> well, it's interesting, you know, osama bin laden and taliban we have now enough declassified information and also open source available information now they were seeking to target african-american muslims, looking to use and insight on racial grievances going back when then senator barack obama was going to -- or was seeking to become the president, they were using the house negro, field negro concept.

so very keenly aware of the racial dynamics to reach new recruits because they made the assumption that they were certainly african-american muslims in the united states that some who potentially spoke arabic, there are some taliban documents that are out there, too, as well. i think osama bin laden himself, particularly when you are talking about the uma, it's a very different narrative than how i have engaged it, which is all of humanity is the uma as well. that the uma is also a very local dynamic as well and so for the community as a whole, i think particularly this particularly one is certainly that has been very much -- has pushed back against that narrative that this isn't what we would accept at all, but i think that that argument with bin laden, with now the rise of hazim bin laden as well, they are phrasing this idea of the muslim polity of somehow being verified.

there is a book the idea of the muslim idea and this ideal of muslims being -- from the islamic learning discussions in west africa -- so there has been this -- there has been -- there has never been sort of this idea of the perfect islamic state. it has always been this sense of in flux of experimentation when the attacks, when the money was flowing in a sense of openness and tolerance was certainly there. you can look at a number of islamic polities as example, but when taxes were restricted, you see a much more conservatism. that's not to a conservatism equates with extremism, but conservatism can be one out of many other sort of dynamics or triggers for individuals' interest down the extremist pathway. >> i think it was amman al squary who specifically was

specifically -- i mean, that fell on deaf ears. if it turns out the african-american muslim community was not -- i mean, there was almost no takers, right? i mean, if you look cases. i mean, african-americans don't really -- carlos bledsoe i guess in arkansas was one of them, but it wasn't a very fertile field it turned out. >> the report itself, i mean, we get into this and we go through the examples. carlos bledsoe as being an example, malik jones who was just in baltimore. >> tell people who carlos bledsoe is. >> carlos bledsoe was an african-american convert who traveled to yemen, former military and he -- then he carried out an attack down in alabama, which he now is incarcerated with and his family, his father and his sister now have an organization because they weren't aware of the signs, they weren't aware down in tennessee, they weren't aware that he had -- that this pathway of conversion was going

to lead them down this journey. it's very interesting because memphis, tennessee, has one of the oldest muslim communities that has particularly the community of imam muhammad that if he had just drove a little bit further he would have been exposed to a formula and an antidote that would have helped him see a broader holistic understanding. so carlos bledsoe, malik jones who is in baltimore, maryland, is another example. you know, the african-americans who have gone down the path of jihadist recruitment hasn't come from this community. there is not a single individual in this report that has been exposed that has carried out any actions from al qaeda, from isis to al shabaab to boko haram as well as of date. >> yaya, you mentioned something very interesting which is about this question of interpretation. i mispronounced the word but i think the concept is ijihad which is basically the idea that you can interpret the koran. for fundamentalists that's just

sort of -- you know, which is their prerogative to say you can't -- the gates of interpretation are closed. but i thought it was very interesting because after 9/11 there was a lot of discussion about potential refresh nation in islam, that was by people who didn't know much about islamic history. there have been many reformations along and way and the people. but i was unaware of anything you just said about this attempt. so was it controversial in the islamic world, americans were sort of doing this bowl al azar university and other arab -- >> yeah, i mean, so obviously i didn't live through it directly because i was born in 1975 so i didn't see it. but i think you had a very quiet sort of movement, you know, so when muhammad -- when imam muhammad sort of took the reins of the nation of islam seasoned did everything that muhammad mentioned, you did have an

outreach to the slum -- slum world. you did have, i think, one of the original names of the community was the world -- world community of islam in the west. right. so the idea was that we are not just a small sort of sectarian group, we are muslims, we are traditional muslims, we're following muhammad and we have the same brotherhood and sisterhood with all muslims around the world. so it was this idea of university alt, but it wasn't one of direction. and i think from what i've seen, what i've read and heard from folks who were around at that time, other scholars appreciated imam muhammad, other folks acknowledged that he was sort of the person in america who had leadership. no one else. think who in 1980 was a key muslim american leader that had a large following? so i think there was respect, but he was very independent.

so i think what did happen '80s and '90s here in america in particular a lot of people saw -- even though he is -- [ inaudible ]. they would say that, well, you know, okay, now we're here, you know, my family came from wherever, pakistan or egypt and now we're here in america and we can provide the guidance of islam. and i think we've sort of been caught up in that which is that's where we are. i think that's what we've dealt with. >> you mentioned muhammad ben salman who is the crown prince of assault and battesaudi arabi met with president trump last tuesday. i mean, he said some very interesting things. i think he told the "washington post" that, you know, the kind of -- the road that saudi arabia has been going down since 1979 as a result of the iranian revolution and their counter to that basically -- you know, is kind of a cul-de-sac and there

was a lot of problems there. you know, he's letting -- women are going to drive in june, he has -- extraordinarily he's letting very unusual for the gulf, if you are a divorced mother you can now have custody of your kids without going to court. so he's making real changes. of course, he is also locking people up and doing other things. you are both intelligence analysts who worked in the u.s. government. if you were talking to, you know, one of your -- you know, the president or, you know, one of your -- the director of the cia or dhs and you were sort of advising them or trying to analyze, what would you be saying about this right now? i mean, is this a big deal or is this kind of window dressing? >> i think what's happening is probably inevitable. i think everything that you've mentioned is good and important and we've seen pockets of it and i think this is -- it's inevitable. it had to happen, i think it's

good that it's happening. is it window dressing? i would say what it is is it's going to be easier said than done, right? one person sort of dictating to a whole country, there are a lot of -- there's a lot of institutional inertia that he's going to have to fight against and others that are doing the same thing. so that has to be taken into consideration. the one thing that i would add is for these efforts to be successful, i would recommend that those who are doing them consult those who have been successful in providing this sort of enlightened islam in the modern environment. that's what i think i would like to see. i'm not trying to ask for, you know, an invitation, but you would think that if folks are sort of saying these -- that this is how islam should be, then they should look at where islam has been like that in the west, again, not to be western centric and say that us as muslims are going to save the rest of the muslim world, but just sort of i think practically

i think we have got a lot to show that the rest of the, quote/unquote, muslim world could learn from. >> i think that the delayed arab spring in the gulf, i mean, in the sense of without all the trappings of what it looks like in tunisia, et cetera, i think that, you know, mbs is trying to institute a slow engagement in light of two stakeholders that are in saudi arabia, you have the religious clerical establish and you also have the royal family and those two engagements require surgical sophistication in a way where you are making everyone happy. so doing that requires slow reforms that for us may be a bit slow, but it may be timely and may be for the long haul the best decision at this particular employment in history. >> the leading saudi cleric and old friend of bin laden's who he

has now rejected, if you are not going along for the ride he's putting you in jail. >> so this is the task for one is the joke -- the conversation always comes up is let's work with prominent leaders and voices, yes, those are individuals who have already drunk the kool-aid. the real engagement are those who are on the border, who make us a bit uncomfortable to work with. in some way, some shape or fashion, engaging them in a constructive way requires a real purposeful tactful strategy in that engagement. i'm of the opinion that engaging those types some who are nonviolent and some who are part of the engagement that we need particularly in the gulf and for the broader islamic world. >> one thought on that.

because i think you all are hitting on t i think we also have to remember that, you know, changing culture, changing society isn't something that can happen in a policy directive. and so we have -- i think maybe the experience that we've been through sort of shows that. that it really is an organic process, right? so i think we have to be comfortable with theed in that even if a leader or policy making sets out these guidelines the path to freedom, enlightenment, reform, revietlism it's not going to follow by script. we need to be aware that maybe some actors who are doing -- who are asking for reform, yeah, they may not be perfect, i'm not endorsing them, i'm just saying this is an organic process. >> one thing that's very different, if we had this conversation a few years after 9/11, i mean, al qaeda framed everything through the israeli-palestinian conflict. if you look at what's happening now with jihadism it's all about

anti-shi anti-shia, it's sectarian. you had muhammad salman going on "60 minutes" and comparing could you mainy to hitler and implying that he might start a nuclear weapons program. speaking again a wearing your analysts hat what does this look like going down the road? all these sectarian tensions will continue being an issue, will they amplify, get worse, what does it mean for the middle east, what does it mean for islam writ large that there is this growing sectarianism. >> you have a growing rise of at&tyism in the middle east as well so individuals are leaving and sort of that rise of a moment, if you will, quietly -- >> but you can't add mist -- the middle east -- it's very problematic. >> i think the rise of -- this

is the age old issue between tunisia, tension is still an issue, i had one earlier as well. so, yeah, i think that these issues continue to become one all throughout the world i think there's elements that certainly will manifest itself, whether it's in southeast asia, africa as well, nigeria particularly you have the rise of anti-shia views. >> are there shia in nigeria. >> there is a large number of shia in nigeria, all throughout west africa. lebanese influence have been there, including scholarships. so that competition that's been taking place isn't just in the middle east, it's in west, it's in east africa and looking for new -- new areas to get influence, to get -- yes.

>> when i -- you know, bringing it to the personal, i converted in 1997 and i often think about when i converted to islam i didn't convert to sunniism. i didn't convert to shiaism. it probably became later. it was probably a year later before i understood the actual distinction. i was really into the text and not into the politics. so it's interesting because even though, i mean, the african-american muslim community that we are talking about came to islam where, yeah, for sure we could say we were brought to sunni islam by default, but i think it's real important to note that it wasn't a really sectarian view, it was, yeah, maybe a lot of the sources will be from sunni scholars and they weren't using shia scholars, but the identity was not really so much attached to that. so maybe in the broader -- the thing that we're seeing now, maybe there's benefit in this

identity being created which was not so -- or has not been so sectarian. yes, maybe sunni by default, but that's not the way i context lies it that it was a sunni reform. it was really a push to this idea of islam, consult the text, be connected to the broader tradition, but not so closed in to a sectarian identity. and that's probably -- maybe saudi needs that. >> take you down a sectarian path by its nature or not? >> so i think -- i mean, again, from a personal standpoint i think about in the '90s coming to islam before the internet, right, the internet wasn't a huge thing and if i'm going into different mosques like i would, there was so much wahabi literature. i think most converts at that time if you're going to be engaging islam for the first time, like the carlos bledsoes, you probably would be inundated

with wahabi literature. >> coming from saudi. >> coming from saudi. all throughout the '80s and the '90s that's twha we were dealing with. >> if you look at the popular culture, go to philadelphia. the notion notion of now -- you can be a salati but not muslim. if you go to -- if you go to philadelphia now just as an example and everyone -- the salati identity of a long beard is -- i mean, this is what's very much a fad going back ten years ago, five years ago and probably still in place now, that beard comes from the influence of salati thought in america, in philadelphia, new jersey are just two locations that now it's just part of popular culture in urban society, people having a big beard. that comes from the influence of -- from a very salati framing of the world. that has nothing to do in the contemporary context it's hard to distinguish it being one and the same, but you can see that,

that influence. but, no, absolutely, i think that throughout the u.s. the salacy educational textbooks or wahabi textbooks have been part and percentel of many mosques. i think things are shifting. >> you are part of an organization called quilliam. >> so abdul da quilliam was first convert to islam in the uk. >> where was that? >> in the united kingdom in the 1800s. >> right. >> the quilliam as an organization now i run our offices in north america and we work on countershiaism composed of former sliks themselves who had gone down the pathway of al qaeda. we have a new report coming out next month of an individual who -- individual of the early days actually one of the youngest cases of an individual

who has been a member of al qaeda and will be announcing him and doing some efforts to as well in the united states. so we've been engaging on this issue and i've seen this from the government side having written on it, brief senior level policymakers engage with our foreign counterparts, worked on it in the academic sense as well. then on the outside as well working on ideological rehabilitation point to point with individuals. so this is not easy work. this is very much the policy level work that we do, we put out policy analysis like what you're seeing today, we deal with the media, but we also roll up our sleeves and real issue of how do you deal with preventing individuals going down that pathway. this experience is unique i think particularly with the african-american one as well is that, you know, we've been dealing with gang prevention, drug addiction. our families are the highs and the lows of individuals who are very wealthy and successful to individuals who are in public

housing facilities. we've dealt with the issue day in and day out of violent extremism in its full expression. i think that that balanced approach in important. a lot of individuals who push back, particularly quite frankly within muslim communities the cbe -- >> what is cbe. >> countering violent extremism. it is in some way anti-muslim. it's in some way against muslims as large. this community has been front and center involved with the communities we live in the community, per on the boards of community, we are on the inner city in communities, we give money in communities and we have engaged with extremism in all forms. i think that's important that what we tell our co-religionist is engaging in balanced fashion, being honest. the fact of the party -- yaya, you would appreciate this -- black on black crime is a tough issue you can deal with.

i had a cousin shot 18 times in the chest at 17 years old. that was a tough thing to deal with. but that's the same issue with me also when i was in government working with issues from being in pakistan and afghanistan dealing with issues and gitmo dealing with informers. this is an responsibility for us to do it in a way that is nuanced, surgical and tailored. >> do you have anything to add? >> no. >> okay. we will turn to questions. if you have a question can you wait for the mic because we have the c-span audience and also identify yourself before you ask a question. no questions? this gentleman here. >> yes. you've mentioned in 1975 imam muhammad kind of brought on this mass conversion and you went on to talk about 300 mosques and

all the professional and political figures that grew out of that movement where is that movement today? and where do you see yourself helping that movement, or do you? >> so i think, you know, normally i'm in the sort of capacity of my analyst hat and i think this is one of those rare moments where i'm playing dual hats for the personal side, too, as well. so i'm a product of this. i've studied extensively throughout the middle east and west africa. i'm a product of the community itself. so really in many respects not just me, there are thousands of others who are -- come from my same experience who are in many different experience who are in many different circles who have been working i think in a very balanced fashion who are

conversant, take a middle of the way approach and have been quietly doing the work without a lot of fanfare and conversation and have been engaged in aspects domestically and internationally so i would argue that going forward that the community is still strong, i think the community is being one in which they are making sure to advise when they can and engage in. the real challenges of this larger challenge of pushing back on extremism is an inter muslim conversation and that inter muslim conversation largely isn't taking place and it's one in which the most divided hour in america is on sunday for american christians, the most divided hour for our american muslims is on friday. if you go to any of the

messages, the mosques in this association there is no partition for women. it's an open space for individuals to come as you are regardless if you are religious or you are not religious at all, you can sit and observe. if you go to the older spots in washington it's filled with diverse groups of individuals, there's visitors on a regular basis. these are open spaces and safe spaces for people. so i think it's thriving. >> go ahead. >> yeah, i would say the community is still here. i would say there is a need to exert more of its sort of presence. i think like muhammad said, people are -- communities are doing what they're doing, working on their job in their communities, doing all types of things like people do, but i think the missing piece has been highlighting or elevating or sort of, you know -- i mean, obviously people are doing stuff because you have congressmen, people in all these positions,

but i don't think publicly there's still the same -- there's the same exposure and i think a lot of that is internal. i think that's -- you know, the community has not really engaged media in a strategic way. i think there's also an appetite for other things. i mean, i will mention when i was growing -- i was someone who grew up out of the '80s and '90s hip hop, i was focused on what was going on with the black community and i was from that era, the militant hip hop era. i didn't know about imam muhammad at all growing up in california, personally, back then. and then i later, you know, my wife -- my wife comes from that community and i sort of learned and much later became exposed to it and i realized all this stuff was going on and i just wasn't aware of it. so it's not always that people aren't doing everything, sometimes there's not the same exposure, that's part of it. >> again, one thing that struck me, obviously there are american muslim communities and maybe that's a good thing or a bad thing because you could make an

argument -- take apac which obviously is a very effective pressure group for jews in america. do you think -- i mean, there's care, there's other groups. i mean, a, do they speak for american muslims writ large and, b, should there be some -- if the answer is no, should there be some sort of analog to apac that is more effective at -- with the caveat that, you know, there's so many different groups that it's hard to speak with one voice, but, i mean, is the american community well served by the pressure groups that exist i guess is the request he. >> i will say from -- this is my sense, we may disagree, but i think there's something unique about islam in america that we would be -- it might be a mistake to try to -- which actually is what happens, people trying to make islam an ethnicity, i think that happens. it happens by default with a lot of islamic organizations, right, and, again, it's not because of mall intent.

you go to an msa muslim student association on campus and maybe they are 90% south asian, which is fine on campus and the msa may take on a certain ethnic flavor sometimes. i think that's natural that happens, but i think we have to be very careful to just assume that, okay, muslims means there's going to be one common theme. already going to be political differences, political different aims. so i don't think that has to happen. i think it's fine. i think we force that it may be troubling. >> i think you have to have multiple we are all human beings, people operate in many different expressions. you need to have as many voices that are out there. no one speaks for all of islam. no one at all. there are many muslims of varying expressions and we encourage that and i think that should -- particularly in our american experience, in our western experiences, it's more important than ever to amplify the diversity. >> what about somebody that i --

major nas san has a cousin nader hassan he is a lawyer in virginia and he said something to me which is behind the secular rised muslim, i have a beer in the fridge, i play golf, voted for george w. bush. they different from his kougs inn who killed 14 people at ft. hood, but no one speaks for me. the groups that do exist are care -- i mean, it's very religious in flavor, right? it's quasi muslim brotherhood organization i guess in some shape or form. >> listen, i think that -- i think secular voices are important to have. you may disagree with me on that, but i think many different voices of really showing the human experience, people who are culturally muslim just like christians and jewish communities as well. you know, the palestine issue isn't the only issue. what happened in somalia, what happened to jumping up and making sure that woman's empowerment issues are heard,

what about your lbgtq broithers what about the african-american churches in charleston and domestic terrorism issues. we have to be very respectful of our collective american identity and i think that that's something we encourage. yes, will there be disagreements, absolutely, we will have different viewpoints but i think it's important to have multiple views and it doesn't have to be, quote/unquote, the old guard or old institutions that have been around. maybe they don't necessarily speak for individuals anymore. >> hi. thank you so much. it's been really interesting panel. i wonder if you'd comment a little bit more about a salasi that's not a muslim and if you would comment a little bit about how that's played out with the whole saudi influence of all the literature, all the money coming in. we have certainly seen in europe

a push back on that, that maybe it's not a good thing. i was really curious about the comment about is it 45% of muslims in america living below poverty. that's something we never hear. and just also if you travel in arab countries a lot of times there is a lot of prejudice against north africans and probably against black americans as well. so that's a whole bunch of things to comment on. thank you. >> i think, you know, one of the things is the communities particularly iman humid, they have soup kitchens, they aren't just for muslim americans, they are for all americans, you can come in and get a warm meal right down the street in washington in my hometown, in alabama, in california, i can go anywhere and they open their homes, they open their centers to help everyone. imam muhammad was the first individual to be involved in

interfaith activities. you know, i recognize that, you know, my neighbor was an orthodox jewish family that i used to go over for shabbat dinners and i respected them. i also grew up next to -- and i had evangelical friends and catholic friends, et cetera. i think that that's important. i give you that point just as an example to say that, you know, the muslim community isn't all wealthy and successful. there are individuals who are struggling to meet day to day needs and they need spiritual support but they also need jobs, this he need resources and the community takes that very seriously to address those in a balanced fashion. as it relates to, you know, racial issues i think in the muslim community, you know, i could tell you many occasions studying in egypt and studying

in morocco where individuals -- and i was watching a video recently where individuals they may not know the a dumpings that you know a language and the words that you hear, it's quite interesting as you can imagine. so i only give you that to say that, you know, that's the reality of life, right? there are individuals who particularly within even faith-based communities that there is a racial hierarchy, even in islam we recognize that there is -- there is -- there's that issue taking place and i think muslims particularly in this community have been vocal about it and sometimes criticized for their vocalization that muslims haven't always lived up to the standards of what they say they believe despite religious mandates, et cetera. >> i will maybe touch on it with maybe a little twist which is i

think the idea of a salacis trait becoming adopted by folks who are not muslim relates to the idea that muslims particularly in the u.s. have had this ability to make certain things cool and let that spread. if you go back to -- i mean, just think about muhammad ali. even if you think about malcolm x. and the original nation of islam the impact where to be muslim and to have a muslim name became a thing of pride. you might not have been muslim, but if you thought about islam in the african-american context as someone who was prideful, doing for self, right, islam -- islamic features it took on something in the cultural context. now, i think, though, that that's a good sign of what needs to happen now because, i mean, i can point to the legacy, you know, the early '60s legacy of muslims. what i'm sort of interested in and i'm thinking a lot of is so

what's the legacy now? right? when we think of african-american muslims we think of folks from the past and we can see how their culture sort of spread and impacted the broader society. what about now? these are some of the things that we are thinking about as we engage youth, as we engage culture, pop culture, what is islamic? because i think islam is cool, you know, i think it's really cool and i think there are aspects of it that could be -- you know, should be wrapped up in a very positive way to fit the needs of the broader community, the african-american community and the broader american community in general. i think that's a good thing. >> just behind dr. skekoff. >> hi, kevin russell. quick question. comparing the african-american muslim experience to the experience of muslims abroad, do you think the reason why violent extremism never kind of evolved through -- evolved from the african-american community is because they have legitimate

means of influencing the political system? >> i mean, i think the american -- that sort of gets to the idea of maybe the american exceptionalism. i think there is a big difference. so i will acknowledge that you're going resonate with them. it's going to be impossible to quote, unquote, inoculate everyone. but i know when i was really -- when i was in the ct realm working in the government, you know, one of the key things that we thought a lot about was, well, what is so different about america that we don't see the same type of radicalization, the same type of plotting as we see overseas. some of it is cultural, some of it is structural, some of it is even geographic. in europe, where are you in europe? in europe, in the early 2000s, right when the iraq war was going on, and folks coming from iraq and afghanistan, you're in the middle of networks, where in germany, jihadists are moving from chechnya. in europe, it's easy to connect with those networks. and a lot has changed now with the internet.

back in those days it was easy to connect with the jihadist group in europe. here in the united states, much more difficult. the u.s., we're blessed in many ways, by being a big island, where you don't have the same -- you have the radical preachers and all of that. you'll have that. but that's the structural. i do think culturally, there has been a more -- there's more openness to religion in the united states. generally, because of the american history, and religion being a part of it or an openness for religion. people don't shun it in the same way as maybe in europe. so that allows for people not only to just engage at the political sphere, but allows them to have associations of islam. i mean, because think about it. if the jihadist message is that the west is keeping you from fulfilling your religion and is against your prayer, but if you're having your islamic life, all the things you typically traditionally need to quote, unquote, be muslim, you're able

to do that and also able to engage the society as that, authentically as a muslim. again, not perfect. everyone doesn't fit for everyone. but i think we have more of that in the united states. >> yeah. this gentleman. >> hi. can you lay out more specifically the recommendations from your report on how the example of imam muhammed's community can be made for efforts in other communities? >> so i laid out a few already. but i think that one is -- and i'll just walk through a couple of them, and the recommendations. one, we recommend engaging african-american muslim imams. i think that is important from their experience, having worked in the prison system. understanding and dealing with various individuals who have varying degrees of ideological interpretation, including some

who are very hard in salahfry. to -- i think just african-american imams who have been able to travel overseas. all of us -- when i was a young boy, my father was the imam of the mosque i grew up in. i was his arabic translator. i read through these nerdy texts and i was going through very religious texts and being a resource. so they have sort of i think the religious understanding. but are very much part of the american experience, as well. i think, one. secondly, we offer pilot and alternative to preventing violent extremism program. basically offering just preventive tools, off-ramping efforts of some of the work obviously we've been doing with quill yam and working point to point with individuals who have already been radicalized and offering alternatives. changing individuals to not want to go overthrow the state. and actually making them part of the american fabric. and not having them stay into a black nationalist rhetoric and

framing seems very similar to the issues we hear about through the broader arab world, throughout pakistan -- pakistan and the largest sub continent that can be very helpful. thirdly, we offer what we consider a rapid response as it relates to individuals. i think we title it rapid response office within the usg to prevent or counter violent extremism. essentially having individuals who are well-equipped to deal with these issues. there's a lot of individuals who are working this problem set. but have just come on this issue really quickly overnight. >> well, that does raise a question. the trump administration doesn't employ the counter extremism, and there was money from -- which is going to run out at some point, that was supporting. and of course it's hard to

measure success with countering violent extremism. it seems the trump administration has realized they need something and they're calling it countering terrorism, so changed the name. how do you assess whether the trump administration is or is not doing within this space? >> with the new appointment of john bolton at the nsc, it will be very interesting in terms of the language that may be used. i think, quite frankly, a lot of people are thinking, oh, there's an uproar on counter radical islam. we didn't see that. ultimately, we haven't seen it. >> well, the national security strategy, which is written by john bolton's predecessor, hr mcmaster and his team didn't use these phrases. they talked about jihadist terrorism, didn't talk about islamic. but so we just don't know. >> yeah, we don't know. i think the jury is still out to see what will take place. in all fairness, i mean, there's a lot of pushback one can give to the administration. i think that the administration, quite frankly, they didn't use that language yet.

>> yeah. >> we will see. >> and relatedly, what did you make when trump -- president trump traveled to rea and gave a big speech which was the analog of president obama's speech in cairo, but for president trump. what did you make of that speech? >> anyone? >> talking about early last year. >> may 20th. >> basically, i think -- i don't have a strong opinion. >> really? >> yeah. >> i think the speech could have been given by obama minus the iran-bashing. maybe some of the -- it seemed like a fairly -- >> packaged. >> when you're going to -- that's the thing, right? being in government, right? it's easy to say a lot of things when you're out campaigning, but then when you go and you're the guest of -- or when you're writing actual strategy, there's a big difference. and that's one thing we can share, which is the difference -- the political sphere, where islam is talked about is very different in many ways from what happens when you really are making decisions, trying to write policy, trying

to engage communities or engage governments. it's very different. and so that would probably explain the tone of that conversation. >> this lady here. >> hi. >> can you wait for the microphone and identify yourself? so the c-span audience knows who you are and can hear you. >> hi. i just want to thank you for this presentation. i'm amina from georgetown university on islam phobia. i had a question on the program you had that was mentioned in your report. i just wonder, how did you determine who would be best chosen to participate in this program. how do you develop the curriculum, and what is your overall impact and assessment of the effectiveness? >> what is the program? >> it's to think, to ponder, to reflect. that's what it means. and so the project initially started as a pilot project in washington, d.c.

and we worked with a cross-section of individuals, muslim, non muslims, white, black, latino, et cetera. and in the curriculum, trying to come up with issues of critical thinking. helping young people to think deeply about issues, and do it in a fashion where it's in a safe space environment. so in washington, d.c., we borrowed and used very much from the socratic method. so being able to brainstorm ideas, doing it in a fashion where you can then co construct a way of looking for a solution to simplify it. the curriculum obviously was tailored toward in this case u.s.-specific, diverse issues from geopolitics to modernity, to history, broader american history. we were able to do this recently in nigeria where we deal with islamic philosophy, western

philosophy. and from there, address the issues, in this case in a northeast nigeria, dealing with day in and day out actions of the islamic state in west africa and also boko haram. we happened to be there last month, and we were dealing with the issue of the 110 girls who were abducted in dap chi. so this was -- 45 individuals. the goal is to continue to expand this out. so the measurement of success, what we have seen so far is one an increased amount of learning. two, being able to apply critically thinking in an open space with their counterparts in the northeast. so issues of gender. issues of differing religious viewpoints. the issues of how to engage the government itself in a way where it's constructive. >> and you have a real-life trial participant, because my

son, my teenaged son, was part of your first circle in d.c. my son participated, and the thing i would say that it gave him was just an appreciation for critical thinking, and doing it in an environment where he's with his peers. right? i mean, you all were coaching, but it was a group of young teenagers meeting, discussing these issues. and it wasn't a debate. it was sort of a discovery and it was -- for him, i think something that has helped him become a more probing, you know, deeper thinker. >> this lady here. >> hi. my name is kristen garrity, and i work at the bridge initiative at georgetown university. muhammed, i believe earlier you said that entrapment in is a counterterrorism tool for law enforcement. can you please clarify what you mean by this and how entrapment fits within the counter

radicalization model you and quill yam have identified in this report. >> what i was thinking is that law enforcements in the u.s. have been using entrapment in particularly in communities -- particularly urban communities have been dealing with this. in the report you can see it for a long period of time. so there shouldn't be a surprise that entrapment is in some way unique to just -- particularly i know muslim communities have pushed back to say in some way have been singled out. as an african-american, as an african-american, as a muslim, i recognize these are two dynamics that are very much part and parcel of law enforcement techniques and tools. it's been used since the days of hoover. so i don't see that as a particular anything to be -- to be -- it's not a surprise. and so i think that what communities thinking that this will be something that will change overnight, i think with policy, with advocating if new individuals want to be engaged in that, certainly that can be

part of it. it's nothing new. and so i think to this part of a larger counterterrorism tool, seeing that's part of a larger law enforcement, part of a larger intelligence security effort, that has been taking place for decades. >> just to clarify. i mean, there's no terrorism case in which entrapment has been argued successfully as a defense. so -- because entrapment has a very specific -- even from a legal point of view, it's not entrapment. usually -- when the undercover informant goes in, he says to the person four or five times on tape, you know, do you really want to do this. and that's very persuasive if it goes to a jury trial. >> yeah. >> or strong argument to take a plea. >> absolutely. but the use of informants, as muhammad said, the use of informants is part of the law enforcement tool kit. >> yeah. >> this gentleman here. i think this will be the last question. thank you. >> hi. grayson slover, student at the university of colorado.

you guys both touched on how it's important that we talk honestly about counter extremism and radicalism. and it seems to me that there's a unique problem in doing that on the political left today. and i think a pretty good example of that is the founder of your organization being mislabeled by the southern poverty law center as a anti muslim extremist, which is pretty ridiculous, in my mind. so i guess my question is, how would you recommend we attack that problem, and try to create some unity on our side, and attacking a problem that should be a universal one that we all should want to solve? >> i think you captured it well. i mean, i think that there are -- there's -- you know, individuals and organizations that have been around and done some good work historically. but i think they have lost their bearings a bit in their contemporary context.

and so we believe in constructionive engagement with all sides. and i think that the left, the right, and perhaps those who are heavenly above need to find a careful balance of how do we work in a nuanced fashion on these issues, and just labelling individuals that can get people hurt, get people killed, can affect people's lives, including death threats. and i think that it has to be done in a way where it's balanced. and so particularly i work with quill yam, with me being head of it, keeping the balance moving forward, and this report is part of that, too, as well. showing that balance, fashion, everything we've said today, i think is part and building off of the tradition of the great work of the community of imam muhammed, and also the work we seek to have coalitions across all political aisles in various communities, as well.

>> and i would say i think you're right. and a lot of this -- you know, i come from the standpoint that often we think about things based on what we are exposed to, right? and what we expose ourselves to. and i think the biggest thing i'm seeing in this environment, where everyone is in their corners and in their camp and there seems to be more interest in proving your point of view, the thing i think that i would like to bring is just exposure, right? i mean, how often do you get to talk to muslims who worked in counterterrorism, right? a lot of people have views about counterterrorism they've gotten from watching msnbc or fox news, right? have they ever talked to a counter terrorist, someone who knows counterterrorism, a muslim, people against cve or dealt with somebody who has dealt with the fbi and understands a little bit about these informant issues and that nuance. i think that's a key thing we need. just more exposure. if you have exposure to someone who has been on the radical

side, who has been radicalize and had has had certain ideas. if you're not exposed to them, how are you going to understand it? so i think we have to get away from just trying to prove our positions, because we have our organization, we want our organization to get points. and really engage and learn. because my thought at the end of the day, i'll end with a quote that i think is appropriate, which is in terms of why aren't -- why aren't people -- why don't we have this more? why don't we have these sort of forums and learn about these unique experiences? and i'll quote the famous or infamous doboy from the movies "boys in the hood." either they don't know, they don't show or they don't care. and, you know, we have to sort of really put that to people. do we really want to solve this problem? do we really want to engage and show what's going on, or do we just want to be with ourselves and prove our points?

>> i want to thank both of you gentlemen for an interesting and illuminating conversation. [ applause ] later this afternoon here on c-span3, a discussion on human trafficking in the travel and tourism industries and ways to combat it. that's from the commission on security and cooperation in europe. it's scheduled to begin at 3:00 p.m. eastern with live coverage here on c-span3, online at c-span.org, and on the c-span radio app. tonight on landmark cases, a case on capital punishment.

gregg v. georgia. in 1976, troy leon gregg, a convicted armed robber and murderer, challenged his death sentence. his case and four other capital punishment cases were considered by the court. the supreme court ruled against him but established stricter guidelines for states wishing to impose the death penalty. our guest to discuss this landmark case, carol steiker, one of the nation's top capital punishment legal scholars and a professor at harvard law school. she's argued against the death penalty in a number of cases before the court. she was also a former clerk of supreme court justice thorgood marshall. and kent scheidegger, odd have a kati -- advocating in favor of capital punishment. he's written numerous briefs on death penalty cases before the supreme court. watch landmark cases tonight at 9:00 eastern on c-span, and join the conversation. our hashtag is #landmarkcases. follow us @c-span.

we have resources on our website for background on each case, the landmark cases companion book, and the landmark cases podcast at c-span.org/landmarkcases. now president trump's former chief of staff reince priebus joins with journalist bob woodward and carl bernstein for a discussion on the american presidency and leadership. former clinton white house chief of staff leon panetta moderates the 90-minute discussion. good evening, everybody. what a treat to see all of you here. what a wonderful turnout. we're very, very pleased that you are here with us and that you will be hearing, seeing a wonderful program tonight. this is the third event in this year's leon panetta lecture