as you have a chance of keeping it integrated. >> watch afterwards, sunday night at 9 pm eastern on c-span two book tv. >> next, a look at the challenges of combating russia and transnational crime with a special prosecutor from the office of spain's attorney general, and a pro-public record she reported that covers the topic. this is an hour and a half. >> welcome, can you hear me? this is a wonderful sound system, you can hear me but i can't tell because it is so beautifully distributed. welcome to hudson institute, i am charles davis didn't, the executive director. i will start again. welcome to the huston institute. i am charles davidson, the

executive director. we are extremely honored to be hosting rosa gonzalez was come from spain to visit us for a couple of days. this is here, and various other things going on in the town. he is really an example of what can be done and i don't want to say more about him by way of introduction because he will speak about about what he has done and what is going on in spain in terms of the work that they are doing. i don't want to call her that in any way, shape, or form. i would like to say just a very brief word about the initiative and how this fits into where we are now. because it has been almost exactly 4 years since we started this effort.

and initially this was helping to make people more aware of the problem. the kleptocratic threat. and clip dr. c was something that was over there and it was some that was not generally recognized in the dc policy community, that has changed. and so then our emphasis became , well, what can we do about this policy? as many of you know, there is a lot going on in that vein. but all laws need law enforcement, both domestically and internationally. and the threat of transnational criminal organizations and the way they enmeshment themselves with government of various sorts and nonstate actors, as a

national security threat to us but it is a civilizational security threat to democratic and free countries in general. so, we clearly need muscular, fearless non-corrupt law enforcement. [ applause ] >> good morning. first of all, i would like to think charles, of course. and the hudson institute for this opportunity. i consider it to be an honor first of all, it is wonderful to be here in washington, and

at this institute. since i arrived here, we have been cooperating with u.s. institution for quite a while, the fbi which is here in dc. and part of my presentation and what i wanted to speak about today. it has to do with crime. and how officials have been investigating kleptocracy in the grassroots with the guard.

and the agents have been concerned and were smart enough to realize this is a problem that came from the savage years in russia in the 1990s, and that russian citizens were optimistic and they were being treated by depression from the soviet union -- oppression from the soviet union and they went from this happiness to real poverty. the russian people we see this at every level and of course,

we should admire that. there are people who are brazen and have no shame, this is certainly not a complement him although i don't think it is exactly and insult either, because i like to avoid insults. these are people that are involved in the political world and of the criminal world and they are seizing all kinds of assets in our country which means that they are going to gain power economically speaking, and they are taking on power in an exaggerated manner. and this leads to an incredible problem in russia, but that problem is transferred elsewhere

. the leader we see at the head of this problem is none other than organized crime in spain. what we see, not us, well, i had no idea. i always talk about the national police and the civil guard, at the end of the 90s, they are the one together with the national intelligence agency , begin to be concerned which goes beyond just the criminal part of what they saw, which is a great deal of money in capital flows and that we needed to have some filters and control over that, and that is a complicated part because if we were trying to take preventive measures before we get hurt, we will put a bandage on it. but it was the only way that

turned out, there are other european countries that are, one of the countries maybe better than spain in many ways, but i have to say, our police were really ahead of the curve in the spirit -- ahead of the curve in this. if we look at kleptocracy, those that have political economic power in any country, not just russia, it complicated to investigate those persons, i'm talking about a criminal investigation. it was also complicated to kick off an investigation on people who are high-level criminals because that in a pyramid criminal organization at the bottom, we have those people

who are directly related to ordinary crime like killing, extortion. enforcement and we began active talks with those kingpins, and some of them had been convicted, and other mafia bosses. i'm sure we can speak about them later. and that investigation at the top has borne fruit. we detected that criminal

organizations will recognized as such by the russian investigator's office and they -- when they get in contact with us, we collaborate with them and it surprises many people that we actually collaborate with russian prosecutors and they think that they're going to be protected by them. one way -- we know about this in spain, is that investigations -- people think that they have reached the prosecutor's office and there will be a thorough investigation, but really what we want is to eliminate criminal organizations and we have seen that in spain

although that people are demanding that the prosecutors take on these investigations, it is important to talk about our experience and offer it to others. and i come on behalf of the anticorruption office of the prosecutor and on behalf of of the state of spain. i appreciate this invitation and it is true i am not formally representing the prosecutor's office, rather i have come here in my own capacity, but i do feel proud to represent spain in the prosecutor's office. i'm going to take a few minutes now to talk about the prosecutor's office, that is the institution that i work for. it is called the office of the

prosecutor against corruption and organized crime. it is not new, it was new in spain. we have the transnational organized crime that led to the convention under the un, and in the preamble of those conventions the talk about corruption and organized crime and this is nothing new and nothing really ahead of the curve to say that the relationship between russian organized crime is constant, ongoing. and we need to attack it in a coordinated manner, and that is why we have these two international instruments at the un and that is why, as charles said, it is surprising that until recently we have not realized -- or some countries

have not realized that this relationship is very close. in other words, corruption and organized crime is not a lower- level corruption, rather transnational organized crime that means that this is high level corruption. the strong criminal organizations are not happy or content just to corrupt a low level. they go to the highest levels. to the extent that it seems that this corruption is not corruption, rather it is -- power is like that. so it is almost as if they wanted the powerful to tell society that this is what powerful is. this is corruption. and so there trying to invent citizens of our -- our office

was founded in 1995 in it period when in spain we realize, well we had gone from a dictatorship to a democracy, but that doesn't mean that we are going to better leaders. there was a moment where citizens felt desperate because they realized that new politicians are also corrupt. but the big difference is that in the dictatorship in spain from 1936 to 1976, there was no right against corruption. society thought it was just normal. that was just the status quo. so the powers of my office are national powers. there are several prosecutors, there are 28 in madrid, and then we have several prosecutors were all over the country.

so this is the normal result of the centralization that has gone on since the founding of our new constitution, which is based on a decentralized -- our powers are very powerful to fight corruption, and there's one in particular that allows us to fight against organized crime. we are allowed to investigate money-laundering committed by organized crime or groups. there is one exception. those criminal organizations that are devoted to drug trafficking, that actually falls under another prosecutorial office. and so the specialization has allowed us to be very active -- effective,

and allows me, if i may, to predicate here, and it is the structure of the -- first of all , we have a judicial office, in other words the individuals who form the office, and then we have three support units, as we call them, we have the national police and then when unit, and the only work with our office, so they are under us. that we have another unit, which is from the tax ministry and they look at databases and the tax information. we have

all of the information about these people's assets, and certainly we have another support unit, which is the general intervention unit. they are public servants who control what the state spends. another words, how contracts are awarded, how funds are allocated under these contracts, in other words, the interaction with the private sector. well, that is the structure. this is multidisciplinary. it is quite complex. and so it is complex because we are writing organized crime, with each -- which is also complex. i wanted to just make a few

drawings here, if you do not mind. i'm not an artist, so i ask you to give me. there just rectangles. human imperfection. there is legitimization of organized crime. have economic legitimacy. organized crime wants to earn money. they're not trying to give the service, well, organized crime said where there is no state, that is where i'm going. where there is no structure to fight me, that is where i'm going.

charles, if i could run over time, -- when i am over the time, these let me know. organized crime, the aim is economic traffic. -- profit. and the more profit means more power. this is therefore the basis of a criminal organization. but if they just had that, criminal organizations would be easy to get rid of. a lot of money that your mafia boss, we can get rid of you. so they need to find a way to attractively insinuate themselves into society. how did they do that? well, i don't know exactly, because they continue to do it. but i think we can say that the

first thing they try to do after achieving economic profit is to legitimize themselves, vis-@- vis, society. almost all mafia bosses have a specific territory that they protect. and in spain, for example, or italy, those people were most corrupt, first they do two things. one, they have an incredible luxurious mansion to show that they are there, and then secondly, they buy a soccer team. i'm not saying that everybody who owns a soccer team is a mafia boss. i am a madrid supporter, and they are an honorable soccer team. this social level that

goes from their little town starts to expand and they create foundations. and they say that they are philanthropists. they say that they want to take care of people, be charitable, create legal foundations, medical foundations. they actually deceive people and get them into these foundations and they select people who are well known to direct these foundations. some are deceived and others let themselves be deceived. and they have this web, the social web that they are able to create and bring people in. and then they realize that is not enough. why? because at the end, the police,

in general, the state, understands that their origin is this economic -- they need to take care of their reputation and they need to whitewash the reputation -- well, money- laundering is fundamental for criminal organizations for many years and now we have added the laundering of the reputation. if you have incredible assets, you need to enjoy it, and they want to be ostentatious and they want to show their enjoyment. and that society needs to support them and accept them. i think for the last 70 years the sicilian mafia started to increase their activity, they go into rural areas, they also

get money from the state. one of the examples is the pillaging of palermo. and so these are mafioso's that are involved in construction and they build. it used to be said that a true kingpin, what they do is build a house, and by a soccer team. well any sport, it doesn't have to be soccer. but when they built the house, they understand that the building itself, the construction is important and they continue in the construction sector. and we see that all of the world. construction not just of buildings, highways, public works, and in the 50s the sicilian mafia realized that they need to go further and devote themselves to getting profit from the state.

to get these contract awarded to them. that is the second step. i think that one step -- is really to build business, which is a criminal organization. and that is what we have to see this as. of the fight against money laundering is essential. but it is not the only fight and not the only front. we have to fight against criminal activities, and against corruption. and because this relationship between the awarding of contracts from public administration and criminal organizations, well then the criminal organizations come into contact with politicians. and that is what allows for the third block of legitimizing

themselves. in other words, they are insinuating themselves into the political world. they get legislation changed. they do this -- they say justice is slow, they get sent to reduced, they get different crimes eliminated from the criminal courts. they even -- between all these people they have in their web, we have detected in our investigations russian crime organizations, that people who we know have police records have been able to have officials make these police records disappear, so they can have their records purged.

and so the worst is when they actually create their own political parties and this has occurred. and i think that the liberal party in russia, created -- how is it possible that this party has officials that belong to organized crime, and they had a man that died -- even a man that was accused of murdering -- and finally, down here with we have the more -- legitimizing

process for organized crime. and this has to do directly with money-laundering. and this is using these large law firms and financial experts, and i'm also talking about financial and banking institutions. institutions that go against the prevention of money laundering. this is done in the economic sphere and other spheres. these people also have ties to all these of the blocks here. economic, the social, the public administration. these are people who are experts and specialists in managing tax havens. well you can say that tax havens don't exist. but these are areas,

territories, in which mafia bosses and criminals can have assets, which are hidden or the ownership thereof is hidden investigators of any country. sue can call them countries that don't collaborate, or territories that are opaque. i would like to give you an example. this is self criticism. spain currently has gibraltar -- temporarily, it is british -- but gibraltar, we consider it to be an opaque non- collaborating territory and criminal organizations use gibraltar to hide their assets or the owners of assets.

and the in the investigations we have undertaken, the first investigations done by the civil guard in the police are investigations that are directly aimed at a rate of k -- eradicating the law -- they are the lowest part of the criminal organization. there are the leaders, but as an the 90s, they were the ones that protected his this is or under his protection -- wealth was created over time, especially as of 2001, they

startac differently because they started if these laws have tattoos all over them, they can't do all the these activities. and so i always speak in the masculine. i say he can't because they are men. and we have to look at why. the these in law have become endangered, and they flourished in russia and they've almost been exterminated and that is part of the collaboration we have received from the office of the prosecutor in russia to eradicate them.

but there are some that have never had a tattoo, and those are the ones that have bought the title, and they are indeed legitimizing their activities. we have an investigation with regard to vladimir putin. he was investigated for drug trafficking in the uk and in spain for leading a criminal organization. and currently the russian prosecutor asked us to transfer the file from spain to russia as we could not get an extra back to spain. and we trust that the prosecutor's office in russia will continue with an investigation. there people who

have whitewashed his reputation and laundered his money. the investigation is ongoing because if russia does not investigate him, we will take this backup -- back up. their leaders of criminal organizations, which go beyond -- they are not as vulgar as this. we had an operation called troy, , and the national police arrested several people in june 2008. and then another man who was arrested and led spain. -- led spain. -- he left spain. the relationship he had with

them was very familiar, and it was based on a business relationship. we also heard and read how he also had relationships with the then, minister of defense, and then he was -- we heard him speak with him and friendly terms to other people who are not part of the ministration, but they are part of the power structure. another person who we were investigating -- a general in russia, and he was responsible for fighting drug trafficking in russia. and we sent his file back to russia, and then mr. igor --

they took -- thanks to the information we gave them, they have gone after her him. therefore, we've seen this relationship between organized crime to the public administration in russia and the politicians in russia, and so in reality what you are doing is throwing stones at the russian public ministration -- administration. and administration needs to recognize that there is corruption therein, and if that is the case they need to clean it up. and in spain we have had recent arrest of a foreign minister and no one here is saying that the anticorruption prosecutor or the civil guard that arrested this former minister

is undermining the spanish public administration. to the contrary. this is legitimizing the democracy of spain's government and administration. finally, i would like to talk about the difficulties we have in finding money-laundering. live detected, as i said previously, that we need to legitimize at a democratic level our institutions. this is an ongoing effort. it is true that there been some people who feel relaxed and just because there is democracy we will not have corruption. well, no, that is not the case. democratic politicians can also be corrupted and officials of a

democratic regime can be corrupted. we have realized, for example, in one of the proceedings that we've taken forward, which has to do with the corruption of a political party, we saw that they were systematically corrupt . and -- what was put forward in that regard, we think we are going to be able to prove this in court. and this is another example of how the catalon society and spanish society does not want to recognize that their administration is corrupt. and we think that is how it is possible that political party

was able to lead the cry for independence. and we see horrible corruption. corruption that stole money from all the taxpayers, from all of our citizens. now, again, they've not been evicted, this political party, but this is our theory. also, we have the difficulties of social perception. but another difficulty we face is cooperation. i began by speaking about the cooperation we have with the united states. we have a cooperation agreement that dates from 2010. we also have cooperation from law enforcement, national police, civil guard, customs agencies and also the police from catalonia.

we have a wonderful relationship with the united state -- the united states. we do not think we are the executing arm of the u.s., or anyone, just of our self, as was stated in wikileaks. some countries collaborate and others do not. we have a serious problems in fighting organized crime with regard to the uk. very serious problems in getting them to cooperate, with the exception of drug trafficking. we see that there are still tax haven -- havens, and we have problems getting cooperation from holland and belgium. we have serious issues in finding organized crime because of this. and i see that as the uk is

reacting actively to economic contamination that they've sucked heard from -- suffered from oligarchs that take dirty money -- money from a criminal organization -- let's be clear, which is behind a business, even an important business that goes forward with -- criminal organizations are laundering money through large companies, not just through runt companies. -- front companies. and that is why we need to be diligent. the legal financial part. that piece. thank you very much.

>> thank you. sebastian is currently with pro public a he speaks spanish fluently. and he is going to say a few words. and as some of you know, the uk was just criticized in way that ben would like to reform and has been working on that. and there has been some recent

action in the uk in the last 10 days that is a little bit promising at least. and then we will have a brief discussion -- we will be plenty of time. questions -- there are many familiar faces and many non- familiar faces, which is great. it is not the usual kleptocracy fan club. sebastian?>> it is a pleasure to be here and it is an honor to be here. i will talk about my perspective as the sun of the american son of spanish and italian immigrants, i spent a lot of time in spain for personal reasons. and covered organized crime and terrorism and intelligence around the world. but last year i got to look at russian related questions in

europe, i chose spain hopefully at a place that would be a window into this global nominal as i knew a lot of people and i was following some of these cases without going in depth. so i got a chance to spend time jose grinda gonzalez and explore some of the places were some of these interesting cases have happened. and what is remarkable is that the spanish experience over the past 10 or 15 years this details -- and it reveals in remarkable detail that these are powerful networks that go beyond organized crime. it is a blurring and blending in of organized crime in politics and business. and i think the spanish experience is a roadmap and a

model for how to write this urgent global threat. a couple points of perspective that are interesting, one remember is that the russian mafia came in the early 2000 spain. they look -- they were looking for safe the and investment opportunities. and as part of the global expansion, this was a global dias brought the organized crime. spain is a prosperous country and has one of the lowest homicides rates in europe and has a justice system with a lot of guarantees and there were a lot of reasons it was a tractive. and as this presents -- as this presents increased, there was a

small amount of investigators that began this difficult fight. and having worked with law enforcement around the world, one of the things that i've been impressed by by investigators is they are very rank when they say -- there happy to say that i don't know. and that was one thing that impressed me. they are very candid about the fact that in the beginning this was not a world they knew a lot about. and they said they made a lot of mistakes and they had to learn and had a lot of obstacles, and have come a long way. this was a different model of organized crime compared to what they were used to. spain is a crossroads for drug trafficking, so they dealt with a lot of american mafia, and the italian mafia. but this was an entirely different model. a lot of the people that were showing presented themselves as wealthy, successful business people. so the investigators had to

learn how to take on these groups, how to understand them, they had to educate their own judiciary about this, they had to prove crimes that were crimes that were happening and money that was being laundered from crimes that were happening elsewhere. they were dealing with enemies who on the one hand were very dangerous, but they practiced strategic restraint. these were mafias with what seemed to be unlimited resources, some of the best lawyers and financial advisors that spain could offer. and had difficulties with collaboration, they had difficulties with russians and some of the other countries as trustworthy partners. but they began to understand the dimensions of these groups

that ranged from armies of burglars at the lowest level operating throughout europe to people as you heard, who had direct partnerships that had contact with the cabinet in russia. worldwide money-laundering networks. and i think what jose grinda gonzalez did and they were pioneers in spain, which was not necessarily easy, there were times when there was division between agencies, and international cooperation. i think they realize they had to learn about these groups and they had to work with a lot of other international partners to be successful. so working with americans, with european law enforcement and if possible with russia and other countries. and what they were worried about was the danger of infiltration. in spain there were some dangerous fines.

the mafias in 2000 were expanding into areas like banking and business and had a particular presence in the energy sector. at one point it reached the presidential level in spain that there was an attempt to move into the spanish market was blocked because it was seen as a national security threat. and, as you heard, one of the signs that you could talk about of this infiltration, and so i will talk about the barcelona soccer team, the chief of security for the barcelona soccer team, one of the wealthiest soccer teams in the world was a convicted georgian drug trafficker. and the head of the marbach -- mar bayo soccer team.

he was arrested of money- laundering and mafia activity. and they found targets of the special prosecutor's office. there was a moment when the catalon politicians were convicted a couple years ago, his appointment to direct the catalon regional police, and one of the most important and prosperous regions in the country, he was convicted of being an accomplice of the russian mafia, and the russian mafia would've had an accomplice running the catalon regional police. so it shows you some of the things that they were coming up against. spain's crackdown has been one of the most systematic and sustained and they have arrested some of the most important bosses, russian or eurasian mafia bosses outside of russia, in putting the

georgian kingpin. that led investigation of a murderous georgian mafia, which to show you the kind of obstacles they were up against, when the warrants are executed throughout europe, in greece, one of the wanted suspects pays an $800,000 cash bribe and escaped the greek lease were coming to arrest him on behalf of the spanish. and you heard about the petroff case, and they are awaiting a verdict, which is in my estimation, and i know there are probably experts here no other cases, but it is one of the most interesting cases in a western court system that details the workings and evidence of high-level corruption in the putin regime. the spanish are able to intercept phone calls for people as they travel back to

russia, bona fide gangsters treating people like the police general you heard about us flunkies, and just the depth and specificity of the way that brett combines these different sectors, the way it works. and there's also, i think, the spanish had taken an aggressive premise, which is if there is a piece of an international organization in their territory, they follow it to the top. some of the oligarchs who have been sanctioned by the u.s. in the past weeks our people who jose grinda gonzalez have been investigating for years. and in some cases they have at least been able to question. and they are cases that shed light on all kinds of interesting thing. some of them are partners of paul manafort. one of them is under investigation for reportedly

having ties to the trump campaign. so the spanish cases really give you a window of looking beyond the spanish borders and gives you a window into all kinds of international act tiffany. not all of these cases have been successful. sometimes the results have been ultimately meeker, but i think there is no question that they dismantled and challenged these mafias and these larger structures in a way that is impressive and one thing that is ironic is that we know a lot about russian mafia in spain, but i would argue that if you look at europe and you look at countries like great britain, there are places where there is a lot of work left to do. and the spanish model of cooperation is one that should

be emulated. and in closing, there is expression first heard, it is used in sicily which means the armored life. always be surrounded by bodyguards always be aware of physical threats and the treachery and attempt to pressure them and attack them. and you hear it in latin america but is the right that people like josi have chosen to write and it is a pleasure to be on this panel with him today. thank you. >> ben, does this bring any comments or questions to mind? >> i would like to thank our guests for such a panoramic tour de force and bring to life

not only the severity of the problem, but the power that these organizations now possess. i would like to make some slightly wonka should comments about what could be done in the u.s. to tackle this problem. when one studies the kind of chains of how these activities operate, one finds legal entity -- or the legal entity of an llc or corporation stripped-down to its purest form. they are used anonymously to cover-up crime and cover-up the proceeds of crime and it is

urgent that the united states pushes to abolish these anonymous companies in this country. not only should it do that, it should also make deliberately misleading incorporations -- when creating these anonymous companies a criminal offense. and should establish a dedicated unit for incorporation units to make sure that they are an effective of onone deal with these questions of infiltration that we were discussing? the united states already has the foreign agents registration act. this peach -- piece of legislation is the struggle against that basses them --

basses them -- the doj needs to introduce a comprehensive enforcement strategy and congress should finally allocate sufficient resources. because if you want to be serious about fighting organized crime and defending national security, you have to provide the resources to do that. is also essential that loopholes where lobbyists can register under different disclosure act should be consolidated and the time frames for delayed filings are enforced. we also think that it is absolutely essential that when it comes to addressing these problems that the current, incomplete, broken, not for

purpose, in any meaningful sense money-laundering system is modernized. the anti-money laundering system in this country was designed in order to combat cocaine cowboys in miami operating with cash. and not to essentially do anything else. needs to be away -- away -- not covered by anti-money laundering requirements. the real estate industry lawyers and other luxury industries, possibly including the soccer industry. we have a

fundamental need resources to put behind these needs. spending time in washington and deeply in 1956 understanding of what is a national security, when these problems could potentially come in the form of a tank or something chemical, full resources are deployed in order to counteract even the possibility of such a threat. when such a national security threat comes in the form of dirty money or comes in in a pinstripe suit of a lawyer, practically no resources are put toward checking this threat and we need more resources given to

law enforcement in order to deal with this. there is a deeper problem at play in the u.s. and that came -- that is an organized bureaucracy. there are dozen institutions in this country with overlapping goals and agendas, duplicates of staff all trying to deal with financial regulations, it doesn't help you, it helps the criminal side of things. and there needs to be regulatory consolidation and matters to do with financial crime and regulation. it may not be possible the moment that it needs to be done, but it needs to be done -- it needs to be issued policy

doctrines from the white house, and if the white house is unable or willing to do so, there should be policy doctrines about how to combat autocracies. and looking further afield they need to develop approaches with a can highlight -- into collaboration with european union and embedded in its diplomatic approach to countries which are at risk. for the long-term, because i like to echo what jose grinda gonzalez said about how writing russian organized crime is not fighting the russian people, there needs to be

raising awareness of kleptocracy in russia. and one policy that i think could be very active would be consolidating frozen assets run russian kleptocracy into the sums of the people, which would be visible online and which could sit there until a time in which russia returns to the boulevard. it needs to -- the rule of law it needs to be clear of what -- for the benefit of the russian people. a closing remark about raising awareness in russia is the importance about numbers. when you study this field or study how these issues are reported, there is a lack of

concrete numbers. and one thing that the relevant institutions can do is release figures about how much money they think is being stolen russia and how much they believe this is costing the russian people to make people aware of these gigantic costs. i would like to once again thank our panelists for coming here today. >> thank you. i should mention much of which been described is contained in report which is called countering russian kleptocracy, which was co-authored with nate sibley, and we need to give nate a big thanks for organizing this.

thank you, nate. he deserves a big hand. he is the program manager of the kleptocracy initiative and does everything from co- authoring reports, writing off beds, and organizing events, and he also produces this daily brief that we put out, which is a lot of trouble, and we want him to sort of stop doing this for months, but people keep telling us it is so useful. a lot of the people who are real actors in the anti-kleptocracy space have put it more specifically that i should, they needed. so we keep doing it. so he spent a couple hours a day on that. so many of you may be signed up for that. yeah, and are any of

our reports out there? they're all out there. so i should say that countering russian kleptocracy, this is not necessarily about russia only. it is about kleptocracy in general. without we would give it a specific title because that seems to be the clear and present danger that people recognize, but it is meant to have general applicability. and there's nothing anti- russian about it. so, i think, given the time, we will turn to you and take some questions. if it is a comment, i would ask that it is extremely brief. and we may -- we can go a little bit beyond 1130. -- 11:30 p.m. but as this audience shrinks to an embarrassing size, we will

stop. there will be a microphone, or multiple microphones loading around, and if you could please identify yourself by name and affiliation, we will take it from there. >> i am a reporter with the russian news agency. you spoke about threats. i just want to ask you to speak in that regard how you have changed since this application -- operation began, what they are exactly? and the second question is what is the level of your cooperation with

the russian law enforcement and prosecutors. you mentioned that in some of the cases you're pretty sure that they will continue the investigation against people that you've indicted and in other cases that is not so. >> first of all, the threats that when we investigate organized crime, in general, people like me there are two types. first, honestly, i'm supported

by my agency. and the second threat is a is a goal threat. -- a physical threat. i cannot talk about someone who wants to kill me. i don't want to see that name. in any case, i'm quite confident regarding my social reputation, and i'm confident regarding my personal integrity because my agency, the prosecutor's office, the national police are working hard on providing me with security. and then regarding your

question about cooperation with russian law enforcement, i don't know what to say. with the prosecutor's office, yes, we do have collaboration on a permanent basis, but sometimes if we don't -- >> i have a question about venezuelan medora -- and if this is a topic of process -- prost -- >> if i start talking

about that, i think only three people will be left in the audience because we will be here for five or six hours. just to be brief, because it is such a huge topic. the problem private banks is very specific and isolated. it had great repercussions. we had wonderful cooperation with andorra as well as the prosecutor's office.

private banking was not a problem. what is the problem in venezuela.

the justice system has ongoing investigation in spain with regard to venezuela that has been stealing money who are responsible for the i'm paraphernalia i mpoverishment. we hope to have the cooperation, i'll give you an example. i think the declaration of the emergency situation in 2010, there are a series of contracts with electric plants. it's been a failure. many of the public businesses that were awarded contracts for different work are being south after the united states to be prosecuted by those

people who actually corrupted the public servants, they are subject to the investigation in the u.s. and they are responsible for the. >> my name is glenn simpson, i think he reports he has been

tipped off to his arrest warrant in spain. is there any progress made as to who tipped him off, whether he's been put on a red notice. >> as soon as i take the floor i can answer that. he was subject to investigation in spain. they were conducting the investigation along with the

anti corruption prosecution office, and in charge of the office, and i had lunch with him and he was heading up the investigation. we investigated him. why? because he was involved with a man who has been convicted and it seemed to us there was criminal activity going on to the extent that the 22nd of august, i think it was 2013, he was waiting for him to go to, and if he had arrived we would have met him at the airport. why? because we have

telephone conversation that was intercepted under that investigation that led us to believe that he was laundering money. while the fbi also has linked him to other people, and they talked about these two people, they knew them and they were friend and currently he has been convicted. he actually had a plea bargain with the prosecutor's office, and it was clear evidence against him, while when we arrested him in december of 2014, if i remember correctly, well, this evidence,

while kind of -- we never actually issued an indictment against him nor was there an international order issued against him either. >> the gentleman over there. >> stephen blank, american foreign policy counsel. my questions for the panel, to what degree do you see linkages or even actual, both sides wearing the same hat, with regard to organized crime and media penetration in europe.. >> well, i don't know, really. but what i do know is that the

media is part of the state. that coordination coordination, not just a cord nation of interest of the state but the country of the society. in other words, an alignment. in spain, as far as i know there's been no infiltration of organized crime in media outlets. in europe, i do not know. i have no idea. in our vest gauges in spain, we had not been attacked by the media with some few inspections, and that is an insult by the way, so

there has been -- that's not why he's an (blank), so when i state i don't know, perhaps you don't think i want to say that. no, i have no idea.. >> it's not the usual language we use around here. >> just from a media point, i have covered a lot in latin america where i saw cases of journalists or even media outlets being instruments of the mafia one way or the other, certainly in western europe i

have not seen that but they have acquired media related businesses, so there you start to wonder, and the other thing would be to the extent there are political parties in europe, including the countries like italy and france that have strong connections too and are sympathetic with the regime in russia and have gone as far as important political leaders in those countries they don't believe the poisoning -- that countries don't do that. they don't believe any country would try to poison somebody like that. to the extent media leaders have some relation to them, you can see how that can start to seep in. and this is what you can see, this really isn't media, but the kind of

fake news about propaganda activity that has been connected to russian forces and other parts in the west were certainly on display, so that's certainly worrisome, fake news, what seems to be a strategy of separate movements and i think that was very much on display in a bombardment of fake news, that was seen as a russian connection..

>> you have a handful of people working and tens of thousands of people working on security issues. the only thing i didn't talk about last time we really need legal terms. it places the owners from these countries in order to ex to explain where his wealth comes from.

the integration of this topic into the international security doctrine, but finally that is this question of the four estates, and where it may not feature as a class call branch of the political theory when it comes down to a democratic system, when we in north america, online platforms which are destroying the ability of journalism to be funded, we need to move so that these mob monopoly platforms or they pay taxes -- pay higher taxes which then can

be used to support journalism in the matter of the bcc or other format and it's bad for democracy. >> any other questions. >> we'll get the microphone to you.. >> i'm going to speak in spanish. >> can you identify yourself. >> i was ambassador of spain to the united states between 2001 and 2004. the first time i heard about prosecutor was in a book,

who was a regular presence here, and who we regret has died. she wrote a book which was called, and -- wrote a book and she talked about the prosecutor and she haled all the actions taken against the russian mafia, and this book has only been published in the united states because in the uk they didn't dare publish it. they were concerned that there would be a lible suit filed, but the state is a move yeah state and the head of that estate is

vladimir putin, so it's not just one criminal gang. and do you share this analysis what she puts forward, her thesis, do you share this? do i have to deal with this? okay. there's a book in spain, it was written by a media outlet. it's a newspaper in spain. well, the name of the book is the word of thieves. i

have to speak as a prosecutor. in my investigation in spain i have not validated that thesis, not at all. what i have said is that what we perceive is there is a very high level of corruption in russia and we have been fighting against that incorporation with the russian prosecutors. the rest is your reading of it, believing in people. for example, he asserted that and he is dead and there is an investigation in the uk, but there were two that i knew about actually, two specific people

were identified. and there was a different proceeding about the reasons why these two people killed him. the british judge thought it was probable that the russian state had participated in this killing. i always said in the meeting i thought he was from the secret services and he had worked with other people and i thought that relationship was -- well it could not exist if he was going to cooperate with spanish justice. he did cooperate with us and i fully

trust, this is many years later, i fully trust his words. he was an honorable man. i know he wanted to corroborate with us and he did. i don't know any other kind of anything he might have had. i have not detected that this thesis is true. i don't want to cite side it, i don't want to support it because i -- >> he then became famous with the age of 23. do you want to touch this? you don't have to..

>> it's understanding the motivations of russian politicians and a certain point of view in thinking that the russian elite motivation can be uniquely be explained in terms of maximizing profits and maximizing rent and it doesn't fully explain the fullness he is tee they -- i think -- in the early 2000 wars, there were wars, an over focus on trying to find ideology behind the russian regime.

it took it much too seriously. now there hasn't been in the mainstream enough interrogation of the deceased fortress, and how it is propagating these i ideas and private schools and private hunting lodges, and the military. i think that when we talk about russia, a comment that run a mayor yeahed, myriad runs a myriad. the media we

get is an over focus on a generation of ambitious 1990. it's less than what's the global inhibition. or no global scaling and know it's not going to be possible for them to 'chief but the generation is for vladimir putin. this is the bottom line which is furl russian elite would not be impact over the last five or six years. you need to think of

him as a -- and to talk about ideal olg, and bureucratic and oi price i've opinion in any opinion. >> do you want to comment? nchlths i mean i would have to spend many years pulling, where countries like argentina, mexico, people that we talk about models aspen aspen trags aspen trags.

penetration. penetration place. >> i haven't seen this blurring that shows very well organized crime, intelligence and law enforcement services, the business world in politics. the way those things all come together in the model is remarkable and disturbing, some of the specific cases. >> i would like to ask you a question actually to our honored guest, which is in any of your cases, have you come across any individuals linked to trump. >> we shift gears radically. >> no. >> all right. let me continue to, with this question.

the official position of course is we don't have one. i mean, it doesn't take official positions in this sort, but i think the answer is we don't care. in other words, we don't care what you call it. what we're concerned with is u.s. national security and nothing is going to be 100%. this thesis is obviously not ever completely true but we do think and we work closely with karen and it's an explanatory problem with what's going on and particularly understanding the extent to which the they have grew. that is at this point it's a

descriptive one. they're not spending a lot of time trying to debunk. >> thank you, ambassador for your question, which was a wonderful note to end on. thank you. and thank you all for coming.

0. >> here's a look at some of the program highlights. saturday at c-span, at 9:30 eastern, the monk debate, a positive force for social justice? on book tv on c-span two, the author of the soul for america. american history tv, on real america, archival films of world war one. sunday at c-span at 6:30 p.m., former new jersey governor chris christie at the new jersey institute of politics.

at 9:00 p.m., afterwards, former intelligence director james clapper. american artifacts. memorial day on c-span at 11:00 a.m. eastern life coverage of the wreath laying ceremony at the tomb of the unknown soldier. in american history tv on c-span three, programs marking the centennial