has loosened the bands of government everywhere, children are obedient, schools and colleges turbulent, indians flight to their guardians and he grows insolent to their masters. but your letter with the first showing that another tribe more powerful than the rest are grown discontented. this is to course a compliment, but you -- we know better than to repeal our masculine system. and of course they did not. you can watch this and other american history programs on our website where all of our video is archived. that is c-span.org/history. "american history tv," the smithsonian's director money bunch and michael glickman sit down david rubenstein for a discussion about museums.

they discussed challenges facing their institutions and how they exhibit the cultural identities of minorities. the city of new york hosted this event. it is about 40 minutes. mr. rubenstein: how many people have been here to the museum of african-american culture? how many people have not? how many people want to get tickets tonight? [laughter] mr. rubenstein: i will give you his cell phone after this. [laughter] mr. rubenstein: how many people have been to the museum of jewish heritage? how many have not been? how many are going to go after this? we will have an interesting conversation, and let's start with lonnie. when you were growing up in new jersey, did you say i want to grow up and run museum? how did you get into the museum world?

mr. bunch: i loved history. i did not know what that meant, -- you go to gradual school graduate school and i thought i would be a traditional academic. i finished too late to get teaching job and i was broke. i was living on that teaching assistant salary, and there was a returning student, so old she was 40. worked at the smithsonian. i remember thinking, who works at the smithsonian? it is where you take dates. i met the head of the smithsonian, and they offered me a job. then i am curator at the air and space is he him. mr. rubenstein: you were there for a number of years before you went to the chicago historical society? mr. bunch: i cannot keep a job. i was smithsonian, then chicago, came back to the smithsonian. left the smithsonian, went to umass, quebec to the smithsonian, came back to run this museum in 2005.

mr. rubenstein: so the legislation was passed by congress in 2003. somebody, the director of the smithsonian called you and recruited you. what did you say when they said, create a museum from nothing? we have no budget, land, artifacts. what did you say? mr. bunch: i said no. [laughter] mr. bunch: but i realized the smithsonian was the place that had shaped my career, and my kids had gone to school there. it was something to do really different. i did not want to see the smithsonian create a museum of african-american culture by african-americans for african-americans. i wanted to believe the story of black america was a story bigger than one community. it is a story that shaped us all. that notion of trying to figure out how to do something a little different was what brought me back. mr. rubenstein: so you can back

in 2005 and had no staff. .r. bunch: i had one staffer the way i could tell it would be a struggle it i had been back a week and they said you have offices, go see them. so i go to the offices, and they are locked. i find security, and i stand up and say i am the new director from the smithsonian. these are my offices. they said, we are not letting you in. i went around, knocking on doors. no one let me in. i was standing in front of my new offices, and a maintenance guy goes by with a crowbar. being from new jersey, i'd use the crowbar to open my office. that is how we began this process. mr. rubenstein: michael, your story is different. [laughter] mr. rubenstein: you grew up in long island. mr. glickman: i did. mr. rubenstein: you said, i want to run a jewish museum? mr. glickman: not quite. mr. rubenstein: what did you

aspire to be? mr. glickman: a lawyer. i am a lawyer, so you didn't miss any -- i sort of landed on this. mr. rubenstein: how did you get into this? mr. glickman: i found a recruitermr. glickman: when i was looking for a job that would help me get through law school. i was going to do law school in the evening said weekends, then figure out how i could have something that was quite easy. i went into fundraising for a jewish organization. mr. rubenstein: ok, was that easy? mr. glickman: sure. mr. rubenstein: the museum of jewish heritage, it is really a museum of the holocaust. mr. glickman: that is right. mr. rubenstein: why don't you call it that? why don't you -- mr. glickman: we are working on it. mr. rubenstein: there is a holy ins -- a holocaust museum washington, dc, so i does new york need one? -- why does new york need one?

mr. glickman: it started around the same time. at the time it was created by a sort of public-private partnership. the mayor, the governor at the time came together with a number of philanthropists and leaders and decided this was the largest jewish community outside of israel. it had the largest number of holocaust survivors and descendents. we needed to make sure there was a memorial that recognized that. mr. rubenstein: how many living today? mr. glickman: about 200,000 with 100,000 in this country, 47,000 in new york. mr. rubenstein: so most living outside of israel are in new york. mr. glickman: and the largest jewish community for that matter in the u.s. and really outside of israel as well. mr. rubenstein: lonnie, back to you. you get this job in 2005.

congress has not done anything but that we will build a museum. they didn't give you money. you have no land or design, no artifacts. why did you take this job, and how did you get this build? was, i waswhen i president of the chicago historic society. when i was leaving, i got called to see mayor daley. mayor daley did what he would always do. he chastised me. how dare you leave the city of chicago for a one horse company town called washington? you have raised all of this, $25 million. that is so much money, why don't you raise more? i said it helped me. he said why are you dumb enough to go run a project? i realized the way to make this museum work was to make it real from the very beginning. we posted it online, started doing traveling exhibitions, doing exhibitions in the

smithsonian, educational programs so the notion was i did not allow myself to think about how big the task. i started saying, let's take small steps so we can demonstrate to people this is a museum that is wonderful. what will it be when it gets a building? it was mayor daley's chastisement that helped me think about how to move forward. costubenstein: the museum $270 million -- $570 million. where did you get that money from? mr. bunch: congress pledged they would pay roughly half, but that meant every year i had to make an argument. we get money for capital, money to grow. but the majority of the money, 55% came from philanthropists like you, corporations, that basically, people got excited

about helping the building, but also helping to build a museum that was really geared for everyone. that really got people excited. so i think we were very fortunate to be able to raise a significant amount of money and use the private money to leverage congress to make sure you have got to put your fair share in. mr. rubenstein: half of the money came from the private sector, have from congress. when congress says they will give you money, can you go to the bank? mr. bunch: i could not get a loan for my own mother. you get thein: so money, raise money, have a number of people in new york who led the effort. they had fundraising. parsons. so you have to get land to put it. was it clear you could get that land on the mall? mr. bunch: normally when the congress says build a building, they tell you where to put it. this was a concern.

this might have been the last space on the mall. congress said you need to evaluate four spots. two of them are off the mall. i cannot find them. they are way off. one was the old arts industries that was going to take hundreds of millions of dollars to stabilize. then there was a spot we ended up building near the washington monument which many people told me that spot would not serve us well. if we built there, we would be doing a great disservice to the american public because we would be taking away green space. so my argument was to look at all the spaces, and there is no doubt in my mind that the mall in washington is where the world comes to learn what it means to be american. i thought, isn't it important to this story be a part of that space? that is how we argued for it. i spent time talking to members of congress, the board of ultimatelyo really

made the final decision. very supportive of this idea, now it has been that building i think makes the mall complete. mr. rubenstein: the problem with the site is there is a river. the mall was built over a river many years ago, so there is a river under the mall. there was a danger you could ruin the washington monument, it might fall over? mr. bunch: the problem is we hit water at eight feet. the foundation is 80 feet. i have learned more about slavery and dams than anyone should have to. -- slurry and dams than anyone should have to. but the washington monument is kept up by the pressure from the water underneath. the fear was if we countered the bubble that was that water or diverted it in any way, the washington monument would sink. so there were many things you want after your name, but not that you not down the washington

-- you knocked down the washington monument. i spent a lot of time praying to make sure we did not like that monument down. that monumentck down. mr. rubenstein: the building is unusual. everything is brick, and you have a unusual design. explain the architect and the theory behind the design. mr. bunch: we wanted a building that spoke of spirituality and uplift. i want a building that gave you a sense of africa and america. i wanted a building candidly because so much of the mall is driven by white mark. i wanted a building that had a dark tone to remind america that there has always been a dark presence in this country that often got owned -- overlooked or overvalued. so the lead architect was from the united kingdom, david, and he worked really only at helping

us to define this corona, this beautiful bronze corona that covers the building and helps it become the first green building, sustainable on the mall. going to be solid bronze, the architect said we have to puncture holes. we cannot have solid bronze. they were going to use it -- use a computer program. i said let's not do something simple but complicated. i went into new orleans and charleston and took pictures of the ironwork and screens that enslaved and free african-americans made in the 19th century, and that is what is over the entire building. the building is a oh my gosh to the fact that -- is an homage to the fact that much of america -- it is were hundred thousand square feet -- 400,000 square feet. mr. rubenstein: above ground? ,r. bunch: 60% is belowground

which is why i am the water expert, and 40% above ground, so there are seven stories in the building. mr. rubenstein: where did the money come from for your resume -- your museum? mr. glickman: philanthropists. some came from the government. mr. rubenstein: how much did it take to build? mr. glickman: mr. rubenstein: i don't know. how much would it cost to build today? mr. glickman: i don't know. mr. rubenstein: where is it? mr. glickman: the tip of manhattan. we are steps away from the ferry to the statue of liberty. mr. rubenstein: some people would say why not put it more midtown where people are likely to go? mr. glickman: i think we are quite happy where it is today, lower manhattan. it has had a renaissance of some sort. 20 years ago when it opened, it was a different story in terms of how hard it was to get people down, but we are part of a new cultural community down there. mr. rubenstein: how many do you

have coming a year? mr. glickman: 200,000. mr. rubenstein: does it cost money? mr. glickman: there are plenty of ways to bypass that. mr. rubenstein: and today most people come from new york city or all over the world? mr. glickman: a fair percentage, three quarters of our general public is coming in, tourists, whether international or domestic. mr. rubenstein: what percentage are jewish and not? mr. glickman: that is fairly high where it is not jewish. mr. rubenstein: and today what do you think when you talk to people who come through, what do they say is the biggest thing they have learned about the holocaust at the museum they had not known? mr. glickman: when you go through our core exhibition, we have done this in in intentional ways to show how life was before leaving up to the war. you are bringing them through the war against the jews, then

jewish renewal. part of this is helping the visitor understand how vibrant these communities were in your before the holocaust. -- were in europe before the holocaust. you get a good understanding of , alsose of nazisism looking how people rebuilt their lives, social justice. mr. rubenstein: the holocaust was targeted against jews, but something like 4 million non-jews were killed. mr. glickman: the holocaust was about the destruction of the jewish people -- the people, no question. there were certainly others who were murdered in the process, but our museum, we talk about the 6 million jews that were murdered. mr. rubenstein: today the

biggest misconception about the holocaust is what? mr. glickman: with the younger visitors, it is a lack of understanding of the true scale of what was perpetrated. there was a recent study that came out which made it news all over the place about how few millennials understood the holocaust, and particular aspects of what led to it. mr. rubenstein: the holocaust museum celebrating its anniversary, there is a new exhibition showing the american response. what was the ameri government willing to do, or didn't do about the holocaust when it was occurring? mr. glickman: the american government did not go into safe the jew. -- save the jews. that was not their intention. their intention was to win a war. washington presents a story of the fragility of democracy.

we are steps away from the national mall, where lonnie is. the distinction for us is telling this from the perspective of a jewish person. mr. rubenstein: when you are getting the artifacts from the museum, where did you get them from? mr. bunch: everybody who worked with me was worried about raising money. i was worried about finding collections. there were real discussions early on -- should we even bother?should we make this a real technologically driven museum? the smithsonian, if you make it so driven by technology, you're going to fail. you go there to see the lunch slipper.the ruby you have to have this stuff. can you find it? i was talking to this wonderful old woman who was saying, young

man, i don't have anything. she got so tired, she said, go look in the garage. it was a whole treasure trove of amazing thing. i bet so much of this history is in basements, trunks, and attics. i stole the idea from "antique roadshow." >> [laughter] mr. bunch: we will still it from anybody. shawlesent grandma's old or old photograph. at the most, we would give it to local museums. local museums would benefit when we came to town. what this did- is, it got the word out. once the word was out, people started calling. i got a call from a man who said he had material from harriet tubman, the great abolitionist. i am an ninetieths century -- 19th century historian, there is no way he had anything.

he said, i'm in philadelphia, come up. i didn't really have the time, but he bribed me. he said, i will get you a philly cheesesteak. this guy is about 6'4", huge. he takes out a little box and pulls out pictures of harriet tubman's funeral no one has ever seen. said, myt excited and goodness, he punched me. he pulled out 30 other items. i don't know if it was the material or the punch, but we got to tell stories we could not tell. i believed we could find the real stuff of history. mr. rubenstein: the most interesting thing i think you have is nat turner's bible. mr. bunch: there is a repeat to these stories. i have given a speech in charleston, south carolina. this man says he knows a lot about nat turner, and would like

to take me to southampton county, virginia to look at the stuff. i said, i don't have the time. the guy called for seven months. finally, i said let's go. when nat turner entered the rebellion, he had a sword and bible nobody knew about. i said, wouldn't it be great if we could find this bible? this woman calls me. she is a descendent of those killed in the resurrection and they were given a bible as a souvenir. she wanted to give it to us. she brought me this tiny little bible. the research was real. because it was the smithsonian, we had scientists who could look at the paper. we had a photograph of the frontispiece from taking 75, so 875, so we -- from 1

knew we had it. what struck me more than anything else was the generosity of the american public. they went in to htheir basements and attics. they gave us their history. mr. rubenstein: the most visited or popular artifact you have is something you got from a rock star. -- glickman: do you mean mr. bunch: do you mean chuck berry's candy red apple cadillac? i called chuck berry, and i sent, i want that that you wrote those songs on. he said, i am not giving you the guitar unless you take my candy apple cadillac. my staff said it is an important artifact of chuck berry.

gifthuck to sign it as a and ship the stuff and we're done. they call me in a panic, chuck berry decides he doesn't trust you, he will not give anything to you. i said, why? because he just discovered you work for the current federal government. i said, it is a little too late. i said, mr. berry, what do i have to do so you trust me? he said, have your guy eat lunch. i said, whatever he serves, eat it. it was 25 ice cream sandwiches. when kevin ate the 13th, chuck beryrry signed. mr. rubenstein: president obama came to visit in 2016. since you opened the museum, how

many have visited? mr. bunch: we get over 3.5 million a year. what has been so powerful is 25% of the visitors that came to the museum has never been in a museum in their life. -- have never been in museum in their lives. 45% of the visitors are non-african-american, which makes it one of the most diversely visited museums in america. that is important to me. 70% of -- many visitors are international. eiry of them tell me th first introduction to america was african-american culture. i am really touched. we have the highest percentage of senior citizens of the smithsonian. for many people, this is the pilgrimage site. they want to share this with their grandchildren. we have this amazing array of

ethnically diverse, racially, age-wise. i am pleased it has become a spot that is a touchstone to who we once were and who we can become. mr. rubenstein: the average person spends how much in the museum? mr. bunch: the smithsonian, you spend an average of one hour and museum. on weekends, 6.5 hours. makes it hard to flow through. we are pleased people are finding it that valuable, that worthy of their time. mr. rubenstein: so museum food is not generally famous for being great, but what did you do to correct that problem? mr. bunch: we lift off the profits of those $15 per bed hamburger. we wanted to continue to use food as the interpretation. we created a restaurant that had

regional cuisine. i thought, let us find the best chefs. this museum was a semifinalist for the james beard award of best restaurant in america. i must admit, it is really good. rather than pay $15 for a bad hamburger, pay $15 for shrimp and grits. for us, the food is part of the experience. we wanted to create a space that was welcoming. we did not want to just create a museum. we wanted to create a space where people would feel engaged, feel comfortable debating, but the restaurant is set up in a shareway where you have to share tables. mr. rubenstein: the jewish heritage museum must have good food too. mr. glickman: we do now. we have a good restaurant that

has been open for a year and a. -- and a half. it lives p to that name. mr. rubenstein: if you are a tourist in new york and you want to go to a jewish museum, you have something called the center for jewish history. then you have the museum for jew is heritageh. -- for jewish heritage. what should people visit, if they can only visit one? mr. glickman: museum of jewish heritage. we are new york's holocaust museum. we help them understand the history of the jewish people. history --for jewish it is a research institute with a cultural offering, but not necessarily a full museum experience. mr. rubenstein: the holocaust ended in 1945. why is it there were no museums

of any consequence built the holocaust in the 1940's in the and not50's, 1960's, even into the 1970's? why did it take so many years for this terrible act to be memorialized? mr. glickman: i will correct -- 1952 is when los angeles opened their museum. you have a group of survivors who came together in various communities around the country, trying to find out what the most appropriate memorial was. our group came together in 1981. it took them until 1987 when the doors opened, september 11, 1997. washington opened before us, but started at the same time. you've got eight major regional holocaust museums in north america, seven in this country. i think part of it was there wasn't really a holocaust studies component to it. you have a lot of this material

still in the hands of survivors or extended communities ending up in communities like the leo beck institute or jewish american historical society. they started thinking about how to present this story. it was incredibly difficult for survivors in these communities to agree what that story was. mr. rubenstein: so if somebody ,anted to go to their museum you don't think they have to go to washington? mr. glickman: i think you have a different experience in these institutions. washington sets out to tell a different story than we do. from us, you are looking at the perspective of teaching holocaust education from individual narratives. mr. rubenstein: what is your budget now? mr. glickman: about $15 million. mr. rubenstein: do you get that from ticket sales, philanthropy, food sales?

mr. glickman: not quite yet. mr. rubenstein: are you looking for more donors? mr. glickman: no, we are looking for donors. i am here after the program if anybody is interested. >> [laughter] mr. glickman: we are wholly dependent on philanthropy. we have been quite fortunate that the generosity of the new york community and elsewhere has jumped in to support this institution. philanthropy will continue to be a major source of our operation. mr. bunch: on mr. rubenstein: the so-called final solution, has there been a documentr showed -- a document that showed hitler signed something? mr. glickman: his associates went line by line to identify the to which population in each of these european countries. that essentially led to the final solution. i don't know that you have hitler's signature on a particular document. mr.

rubenstein: when the war ended, how many jews where in the concentration camps? -- were left in the concentration camps? mr. glickman: you have eradicated three quarters of europe's jews. between concentration camp survivors and labor camps hidden in other areas. mr. rubenstein: there are people in the world that still tonight the -- that still deny the holocaust ever existed. how do people get away with saying that? mr. glickman: people can get away with saying anything. the facts are present. you go in our archives, you look at the documentation, you look at the individual stories and material, and in the records of research institutes of the like. mr. rubenstein: the biggest challenge for u.s. and museum director is what?

getting money, exhibitions? ourglickman: in institution, getting money and security. we are a jewish institution in a city that is always on high alert. mr. rubenstein: when are your hours? mr. glickman: we open from 10:00 until 6:00 most days. we have extended hours wednesdays and thursdays, sunday's as well. we are not open on saturdays. we are closed for shabbat. mr. rubenstein: the name, african-american history and cultural museum. that is a mouthful. is that the name you thought would immediately be the name? mr. bunch: congress. blame that on congress. then came back and said, here is the name. we have been trying to find ways to shorten. the smithsonian likes to use initials. i don't let them use ours,

because somebody said to me, nahmac. sounds like you stepped in something. we just say, the museum. mr. rubenstein: how did did you organized who got to speak -- organize who got to speak and who did? mr. bunch: opening the museum was a piece of cake. figuring out who got on the stage -- i wanted to have president bush and president obama. president bush was the first champion to say this museum needed to be in the national mall. laura bush agreed to serve on the board. the chief justice is the chancellor of the smithsonian. we wanted to make sure he spoke. then we wanted to make sure someone like john lewis, who was

the champion -- he introduced this legislation every year for 17 years until it passed, so i wanted him to do it. it was the most stressful day of my life. you suddenly realize you come out on this stage, and there are thousands of people sitting there, 7000 vip's. then you are on this stage with the president and first lady and chief justice, and i am sitting next to john lewis. after john lewis gives his beautiful speech, he comes back and he is relaxed. he puts his feet up. toy call my name, and i try move to get past him. i move, and think, how do you not fall on your face? once i was able to get over john

lewis and not fall, then my nervousness went away. i forced myself to look in the people out in the crowd, to look at the diversity, to look at the excitement, to realize that we wanted to do and what we hope this day would remind us is we wanted to build not just the first green museum on the mall, not a place driven by education, we wanted a place to make america better. not greater, better. that is what i thought about during that day. i'm exhausted, so the next day i'm not going to show up -- i'm done. it is 10:00 in the morning, my phone rings, and and it is the head of the restaurant sa -- and it is the head of the restaurant

saying the crowns are so big we hcicken. of can we use your credit card to get chicken? mr. rubenstein: you have had former presidents, rock stars. who was the most memorable one? mr. glickman: the presidents. taking president obama through, vice president pence. is helping people understand this is a story that engages us all. i took president obama's entire family. there was a section on the 1960's. there was music playing, and president obama started to dance. his daughters were like, dad, you have embarrassed us to no end.

what has been great is the array of people that come. many people from around the world come to see the museum -- celebrities. it is so much fun when you say, oh, this person that is a movie star is coming, i don't have time for that. it has been amazing to see the array of people embracing the museum. mr. rubenstein: since it is hard to get tickets because of the crowd, have you found you are more popular than years ago? mr. bunch: it is so embarrassing. i am more visible than i thought i would. people call all the time, and use really interesting angles. this woman called the other day and said she wanted tickets. i said, i don't do that. she said, i was your girlfriend in seventh grade. >> [laughter] mr. bunch: every 13-year-old boy

remembers every crush you had. it was such a good story. i gave her tickets. >> [laughter] mr. bunch: i am from jersey. you work the angle. i think it is amazing how popular i have become. i was in south africa south aek three weeks ago in pouring rainstorm. nnie woman comes out, loon bunch, lonnie bunch, can i get tickets? mr. rubenstein: have you had any grader seven or eighth girlfriends call you? mr. glickman: i have not developed lonnie's status yet. but he is available, because i was one of those people that called him for tickets. mr. rubenstein: as you look the

future of human reason -- of your musuem, what would you like to change? mr. glickman: we have a core exhibition. what we need to do is figure out what this next step is. how do we continue to engage people? what is the balance between artifact and technology? this recent study underlines the responsibility we have to continue making sure we are providing avenues by which we can help those who are not having this experience educationally or culturally. the other thing we are doing is writing the curriculum for new york city. starting next year, every 8th, 10th, and 11th social studies student will have curriculum developed by us, teachers trained by us. part of this will be an exercise in whether we can deliver the same curriculum to other urban

school districts. mr. rubenstein: you have great museums, but why do we need these museums? you can go on a computer and see it in your house. you don't get great food perhaps. what is the advantage of seeing these things in person? why should we have the museum? mr. bunch: there are two fundamental reasons. first of all, even among young kids, we find when they grow up in a virtual world, the authentic has real power. the other reason why it is so important is because museums at their best are social moments. if you sit in front of your computer, you might talk to one person. i go to the museum every day and i see families standing in front of net turner's final, talking

bible,- of nat turner's talking about things that cross ethnic and racial boundaries. you have to come to the museum, because it is that space. it allows you to understand maybe difficult things in a way that allows you to share your history with other people. i think people need spaces where they can come and feel free and challenged and feel educated. mr. rubenstein: mr. glickman:

the communal aspect is an important one. we have an installation now where you can have a conversation with two virtual holocaust survivors. they are still alive on opposite ends of the atlantic. you can have a full-fledged conversation. strangers are having these conversations, then turning to others in the gallery, then having a conversation with them. it is making the interactions much more intentional. it is making them more personal. it helps them leave with a sense of understanding that reading a book or watching a film or scrolling through a book or computer does not lead to the same thing. mr. rubenstein: you both enjoy what you are doing? mr. bunch: on the best days, i have the best job in america, and on bad days, it's still pretty. mr. glickman: fair enough.

it has been a good experience. mr. rubenstein: i thank you for what you are doing and running these museums, and thank you all for your attendance. >> [applause] interested in american history tv? visit our website c-span.org/history. you can preview upcoming programs and watch college lectures, museum towards, archival films, and more. american history tv at c-span.org/history. c-span, where history unfolds daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies. today we continue to bring you unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, and public policy events in washington, d.c. and around the country.

c-span is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. at noonlive sunday eastern for our year-long special, in-depth fiction addiction featuring best -- fictoin ion edition. >> when we are talking about creativity -- the people who have a lot to say are completely undaunted by being told about the rules of storytelling. the whole idea that there is a fry tank triangle, that you must learn to do this if you are going to be a fiction writer, it is necessary, but not sufficient. it is not going to make you a great writer. you sit down with early falconer, and he realized, they could all do it.

there is nothing about learning to do those things that impedes creativity. >> her books include "typical american" and "who's irish?" our in-depth fiction editoin fiction edition with author gish jen on c-span2. >> 30 years ago, president ronald reagan and soviet general secretary mikael gorbachev met for the fourth time. during president reagan's first trip to moscow, the leaders finalized the nuclear forces treaty they signed in 1987, which was ratified by the u.s. senate days earlier. ofel america, a compilation videos from the summit. we see the arrival