now the council of the americas hosts a discussion on the political situation in venezuela following the recent elections there. panest include the canadian ambassador to the organization of american states and a venezuelan economist who just returned from a trip to the region. topics include sanctions, elections, humanitarian aid and the refugee situation. this is about an hour. ladies and gentlemen, good morning. welcome to the council of the americas. it's a real privilege to have the opportunity to welcome all of you back here for what promises to be a fabulous conversation on venezuela and what's next for that deeply troubled nation. my name is eric farnsworth and i

head the washington office of the council, which for over 50 years has been a leading voice in the promotion of democracy, open markets and the rule ofaw across the americas. on sunday, may 20th, the venezuelan regime l by nicolas maduro essentially reelected itself in elections that were rejected by the international community. subsequently the united states and other nations have imposed further sanctions against that regime in an effort to encourage venezuela to return to the democratic path. in response, venezuela declared persona nongrata. venezuela wants tnow experience inflation, short aages of food d medici medicine. desperate people are leaving

venezuela in a gathering humanitarian crisis with some estimates suggesting that fully one-tenth of venezuela's population now resides outside of the coy. meanwhile, other actors from outside the region are increasingly active in the country and they've developed deep relations with the regime which continue to grow. the united states has clearly indicated at the very highest levels its commitment to counter the authoritarian march in venezuela. we seek to unpack the path forward and what the international community can meaningfully do to help support the long-suffering venezuelan people. we'll begin with introductory comments by juan cruz, the top official for western hemisphere affairs. he will be followed by a panel of experts including jennifer lotten, danny behar, a venezuelan economist at the brookings institution.

and hector sheamus from georgetown university. ladies and gentlemen, would you please join me in welcomingach of them this morning. [ applause ] >> so juan, i know it's an incredibly busy time for you. there's a whole lot going on. thank you for joining us and carving out some time for this important topic this morning. i'm going to ask you right up front where do we go from here? >> thank you. good morning and thanks to all of you. when eric asked me to participate in this panel, he said i want you to comment something about the elections and election results, but more importantly on the way forward. for the united states, there was no election, it was a selection. news flash, maduro n. and anyone who thought there would be any other outcome, i've got a bridge to sell them. nonetheless, there are a few takeaways from the selection

that i would leave you with. repeatedly maduro mentioned that he would win by at least 10 million votes. we know that he got substantially less than that, but a number that's too close to the very best lektorielectoral that chavez pulled together. also troubling were the opaque nature of the -- probably 20-40% people of the came out to vote, that's very inconsistent with venezuelan electoral history. it's been just a handful of countries and the predictable few. if you're to believe the reports of arrested military over the weekend, i'd say this represents or spells trouble for the regime, even one that's choreographed it so finely. the ship is taking water and

listing to one side. when venezuela restor its democracy, history will prove this was probably a lost opportunity for maduro. it's an opportunity for him to plead the pleas of the opposition, the international community and even the catholic church for him to post popone t election. what's next and what have we done about this? you know that last week, friday, the treasury department designate designated ka bellcabello. these are senior folk who deserve to receive sanctioning for their corrupt practices. we also sandwiched a selection on monday with the president signing an additional executive order that if you heard or

watched maduro's reaction to it, you can tell that it stunned him deeply. we've now sanctioned 70 individual and had 40 executive orders under this president. and this is done primarily to punish those pillaging venezuelpublic coffers. sanctions are not just about punishing. there's a principal aspect of sanctions that don't get the proper coverage, which is they're intended to change behavior of those being sanctioned so they can try to an correcting their behavior. and it's alsoo be a disswuasive fact factor. it's not just a punitive measure or action. but it is to punish. and what i would say is it's to

punish those who refuse to feed their own people. in this aspect, i'm tempted to compare them to pol pot regime. not in the aspect of genocide. let's talk in the way that they're starving their own people and how they use food as potical manipulation. disgusting. if these aren't crimes against humanity, i don't know what is, and the world's going to hold them accountable for it. the fute highs primarily in the hands of the venezuelans. let's be clear about that. but the u.s. and the world will accompany them, but they need to do more and every citizen needs to do more. our options are limitless. i know that people, you know, sometimes think that we have sort of played out everything that we could have done until now. that's simply not true.

we will continue to pressure to restore democracy in venezuela. we will try ways to get food aid to that country despite the repeatistance by t regime to accept that they're in ed of foodnd to reject all the offers that have been made for humanitarian aid and food aid by a whole host of countries. and we will honor those who understand that the future of venezuela will be shaped by those who respect constitutional obligas. it's not the first time that in an event i cite articles from the boliviarian constitution, that maduro is quickly hey boring to undo. that's the constitution that exists today. i'd like to read to you from that constitution that says the

people of venezuela true to their republican tradition shall disown any regime, legislation or authority that violatesrinci and authorities or encroaches upon human rights. shorthand on the significant parts of that sentence, the people of venezuela shall disown any regime that violates democratic values and human rights. changing themes here, we're coming up in a short two weeks on the organization of american state general assembly, an annual event. this is an opportunity to see who side with democracy, humanity and decency and what countries decide to side with cheating, hilying and starving

venezuela's own people. we'll be watching and we will take note. and lastly, as a reminder, we will work with those, any country, who's interested in restoring democracy in venezuela and bringing peace there. thank you. >> thank you so much. i know you have to go and i appreciate very much the fact that you've been able to fit us in. maybe i can sneak a quick question in here before you have to take off. when she was at our annual conference just a couple of weeks ago, u.s. ambassador to the united nations nikki haley also spoke very eloquently about venezuela and she also talked about some of these themes. it's impressive the amount of fire power at the senior level from a political perspective that the administration is giving toward this very complicated issue. alluded to additional steps that could be taken without trying to ask you to say specifically what those would be, i wonder,

although if you want to, we're certainly willing to listen, but to the extent there's anything further you could talk about, perhaps timelines or things you would be looking for in venezuela that might be triggers of those additional steps. >> we're endeavoring. of course everyone's going to gravitate immediately to the option of sanctions. we want to address that with fidelity and we want to be careful that we seg mgt thment a careful way. if we sanctioned everybody who deserved to be sanctioned in venezuela, it would lose a lot of its impact and i fear it would have a numbing effect rather than a powerful effect. but we will continue to sanction those who need to be sanctioned, especially those at the highest levels and those stealing from the venezuelan people. and more importantly instead of choosing that money to buy food, to line their pockets and to enriching their cronies.

sectorial sanctions are roughly all these that have to do with issues of the economy and finance. people immediately go to oil sations. the issue with that terminology is that oil sanctions actually mean, for u.s. at least, probably 36 kinds of sanctions. we are very precise. we want to be very careful. one of t things we always look at and debate is what kind of effect this could possibly have t venezuela people. make no mistakes about it, it's the venezuelan regime that's starving them. we've even offered food aid. it's not us. we haven't taken anything off the table. the president is very clear. we will leave all options open. what we will do next? we work in concert with all of the nations who are like minded of this. of that, i am very proud. we're in lock step with all the

group countries and the eu. we appreciate canada's leadership on that. it brings added credibili for those who would like to criticize the united at wh i on this is we will be as creative as we have to be. we want t make the would recall smaller. if you're stealing money, we want to make sure it's harder for you to travel somewhere to spend it. we want to make sure it's harder for you to have access to it, for your to enjoy the results of your theft. we're working with other countries to make that world smaller and smaller for the venezuelan regime and those who prop up maduro. >> thank you. obviously w all have many additional questions we'd love to pitch your direction, but we are mindful of your time. thank you. ladies and gentlemen, would you join me once again. [ applause ] >> thank you. >> and we are going to continue

now with the panel discussi we have a terrific group, as i mentioned. you know, jennifer, ambassador lotten did a perfect s in terms of canada'seadership role on some of these issues. i'm going to ask ambassador lotten to speak to these topics with one quick acknowledgment. your government's leadership not just at the oas and in the lima group context and perhaps you might want to explain some of that, but also in the g7 context as the host. for those of you who haven't en the recent statement from the g7 leaders, i call it to your attention. it's fabulous. it's focused on venezuela. this truly internaon the topic. it's not an issue of latin america. this is global democracy. it's a concern at the very highest levels at the g7.

jennifer, thank you to you and your government for your leadership there. >> thank you very much, eric. it's a great pleasure to be here day. canada i extremely pleased to talk with this group about how we see the unfolding crisis in venezuela. you just said what i was going to say. you said it well, so good on you. but essentially, we consider this a problem that's happening in the americas but of ghoeloba proportions and significance. what our objectives are in the americas are the same and have remained the same for the 25-plus years we've been members of the oas. that's to support democracy and human rights. the oas has done a relatively good job of that in the americas. they've developed the strongest document globally that exists.

the problem is a failure to implement. how do we give it teeth? something else that's important to keep in mind is that what we're looking for in venezuela is nothing less than what venezuelans have identified for themselves. as one mentioned, their contusion is a strong documenc n constitution is a strong document. it seems unfortunate that support to achieve that democratic future is going to come from the outside. the reason that it's been removed, political manipulations and elections that have been globally denounced as false. canada, the united states, the americas, we're not alone in coming to that conclusion. political prisoners, withholding of engagement by the opposition a hijacked electoral commission, we all know the litany, we all know the reasons why this election has been declared false. so what do we do? how do we use the international tools at our disposal to bring pressure on the venezuelan

government? the difficulty within the oas is it's a consensus based organization. to a large degree, that body has adhered a little too strictly to that principle. it's an interesting thing internationally. generally speaking, different opinions are allowed to be brought forward and a broad agreement is developed. the only thing that consensus model or habit has encouraged is that we end up doing what we are all willing to do, as opposed to what we all know we should do. when you think about the history of the organization that produced the document, that produced the inter-american democratic charter, it's surprising to find ourselves up against a wall at this opponent when we can all clearly read the words on that paper and what should happen next. we've spent a lot of time reminding member states around the table what the principles

are, but how do we make that happen? the last time we made a strong attempt to do that was cancun in the general assembly ere. i think what we learned there -- none of these efforts are ever wasted. what we learned there is some member states are still in the willing to look at the situation and see it for what it is and take the steps that we need to take. so we decided if we cannot bring the consensus model into a little more serious conversation, then we would move outside and do something else. so the lima group was created. the idea was it would be a more nimble body to work with a coalition of willing countries to bring international pressure on the situation. that's been quite effective. the members of the lima group don't exist unique ly in the americas. we released a very strong statement in the g7 the other day. we have also managed within that context to -- well, in the last meeting of the lima group we

brought in finance ministers. this is a political conversation. but we're digging a little deeper now. sanctions can be applied bilaterally and canada has done that. they're targeted. they are not meant to be sanctions on the people of venezuela, but rather those who are abusing theirposi ons, those that are robbing venezuela and need to be. stopped. we've applied those sanctis, has not the only financial tool that countries have at their dispos the more we collaborate, the more impact we can have. the financial actions task force, all countries have at their disposal financial intelligence units as well. in addition, we can take note of the existing democratic bodies in venezuela. transactions that the government of venezuela seeks to pursue that do not have the authorization or approval of

that body should not be considered sanction. in addition, we can engage other financial actors and the private sector and sure they're aware of the situation they're putting themselves into. that was a step that the lima group took recently. at the summit of the americas in in peru, a statement was released at lead eer level callg for the americas of the countries to come together and call the venezuela government to account, not to proceed with elections that were not going to be democratic. it's not the result that was undemocratic, it was the process and we all knew that. canada's concern was that there was absolutely no way that, organized the way it was, that the election was going to deliver a democratic result. and it didn't. the statement tha leaders delivered also called for better elections, release of political prisoners, opening of humanitarian assiance. it's not the sanctions that are

sta starving venezuelans. it's their own government. the sanctions are intended to change that. one of their goals is to require the government of venezuela to open a humanitarian channel. the latest statement by the lima group calls for a series of high level meetings to focus on the impact ofhe situation. that's the refugee and migration crisis. and it must besized that what else is happening in the context of this crisis is a public health tragedy. diseases that we thought had been eradicated are now reemerging. as you have movements of populations, we're seeing these very infectious diseases in the americas. now we have a political crisis that's undermining that work. a high level meeting that will look at tse impacts and will seek to bring to bear international institutions and tools to deal with the refugee and migration crisis as well. then the next thing coming up is the oas general assembly.

cancun taught us a lot of lessons. so you learn and you try again. our goal remains the same. that is the restoration of democric o in venezuela. we can use the oas to help do that, but we need to be courageous. we need to take a hard look at that consensus model, we need to create a core of countri willing to do the right thing, handgun to implement the tools and prin -- willing to implement the tools that we have created for ourself. we need to consider the suspension of venezuela in the context of the oas general assembly. whether or not we do it at that event or call for the consideration of that article is something that countries will decide together. but we need to be brave enough to look at that document and apply it for the purpose for which it was intended. that comes up very soon. we're working with countries within the context of the lima group and expanding that circle

as well. in canada's mind, a multilateral organization like the oas has to represent theriips of democracy and human rights, has to demonstrate that it can do its job or we have to ask ourself what's the purpose? th those are hard questions. but if we're not going to stand up and do the right thing, why are we there at all? >> powerful ending comments. thank you for your leadership on this issue. it's meaningful and it's noticed and very much appreciated. we're going to shift the focus now from the international diplomatic sphere to more of an on the ground look. danny behar was just on the border between whicolombia and venezuela looking at the humanitarian crisis. it has been very -- he's been showing in realtime some of the crisis and tragedy that's been

going on. it is a tragedy and it is a crisis. give us a sense what's happening and maybe some things that can be done to help to ameliorate it or lessen the crisis. >> tso you and the council for putting together this event. i spend a few days in the city bordering venezuela. one of the most important crossings that there are right now where it's estimated that 30 to 35,000 people are crossing every day from venezuela to colombia. a lot of them are crossing for the day. i saw mainly two kind of people there, roughly speaking. there are the ones kwhorp juwhot crossing for the day or the week or a few days either to work or find some medicines or both at

the same time. i saw mothers with their babies going to vaccinate their kids because there are no vaccines in venezuela. i saw a couple just crossing to get insulin. otherwise, the husband was going to die because there was no insulin in venezuela. i saw a woman that has a doctoral degree in education wasthat cleaning the floor of a bus station and telling us she was fortunate to work there. she could make more one in one week there than her actual job in caracas. it was terrifying. i spend most of my day looking at data on my computer, just going there to the ground was really terrifying. i don't think i just met five people that had the worst stories. i think the colombian government is doing a great effort to help these people. the catholic church is also doing a great effort. they have a number of public dining rooms where they feed

thousands of people every month. but i think that there are a few issues that we should take into account. first there are some limitations to what theombi government can do, first of all, because these countries are not used to receiving migrants. ironically it was venezuela, the country that was a receiving country of migrants in the continent. now things have turned around. these countries don't have the infrastructure or legislation really to deal with this massive flow of people. very few countries have, but i think latin america in particular are lagging in that sense. this costs money. this is a lot of resources that should be put in place to help these people. a lot of these people are not economic migrants, they're

refugees. that's one aspect that has been missing in this discussion. i think the governments of the region have been wary of calling this a refugee crisis. the original definition of a refugee was mostly based on world. it defines people who are more or less fleeing from war, but interestingly enough latin america put together a -- in 1984, the declaration of c carte -- there are the ground there to call these people refugees. if you don't call them refugees, it means that the legal track

for them to work and remain in the country is something that you have to come up with. colombia has done some efforts but these efforts are limited to people that actually have a passport, which is not the case for many, many venezuelans, actually including me. i don't have a passport for a year. so i guess people who have never traveled who are coming from very low backgrounds, even if they wanted a passport today, they wouldn't be able to have it. there's no money to print passports. so the legal aspect is thiere. also the financial aspect. the colombians are making a big effort in trying to identify the number ofpeople. we don't know how many venezuelans are in the colombia. the latest figures the talk about 750,000 official numbers. unofficial sources on the ground talk about more than a million

people. they are as we speak doing a census to try to identify all of these migrants that are also in regular status and that should end within a month so we should have more numbers there. ofe the are a lot of people who will be scared of goingo register even though the colombian authorities have said that's not an issue. once we know the number, i think that we can have a sense of how many resources are going to be needed. we're talking about a lot of money. the u.s. has been very generous and other countries in providing some aid. but that's very much welcomed but much more is going to be needed. just to give you an idea, if you take the cost given -- for a

refugee and you make a small calculation and put it in purchasing power, you're tking about $3500 per refugee per year. i think that a conservative estimate could be that you will be seeing perhaps half a million venezuelans fleeing the country, most of them as refugees in the next year. i think that's very conservative. we're talking about 1$1.5 billin to provide them with very basic education,dnd health. >> on an annual basis. >> yes. to give you a sense of why we should think of these people as refugees, let me just put up --

let me give you a sense of why this is actually the right way to think. i want to share with you some numbers of the venezuelan humanitarian crisis. venezuela is not in war. venezuela if you look at hmm al any statistic, humanitarian statistics or economic, they are very similar to any country that is in war. for instance, the latest number show that over 87% of households in venezuela are living in poverty, including 61% living in extreme poverty. that's up from 48% and %23 respectively in 2014. so only in three years, these numbers are almost doubled. there are strong cases for ma

malnourishme malnourishment. the press called that the maduro diet. 80% of hs suffer from food insecurity. 24 million. according to official numbers from 2015, the death rate of under a month old babies stood at 20 out of a thousand which puts venezuela next to pakistan in terms of infant mortality which is the country with the highest infant mortality ithe world. 60% of equipment to perform dialysis in the country are failing or broken. people are dying from renal disease just because they cannot have dialysis.

malaria and other contagious diseases which venezuela was declared free of in the '60s, declared free of malaria.s to be today we have about 400,000 cases. still, the major cause of death in venezuela is violence. between 2013 and 2017, 130,000 venezuelans have been violently murdered in those years. we have some official figures that are -- i think they're conservative but already very scary. between 2015 and 2017, the number of venezuelans in south america rose from 90,000 to 900,000 in only two years. as i said before, colombia says they host about 750,000. if you look at these figures, venezuela is not in a war, but

it's in a state of war. that's why it's really important to understand that these are refugee crisis. it's important for the international community to rally together, either centered around the u.n. or -- it's going to keep getting worse. there's no reason to think otherwise. besides continuing with the pressure on the regime, is to really help these people who are fleeing for their lives. >> well, you can't fix a problem until you recognize the magnitude of the problem. although those are depressing statistics, nonetheless, thank you for bringing them to us. i suspect many of us have been vaguely aware of the magnitude of the crisis. when you put it in those terms, it really hits home. these are people and their lives have been disrupted if not destroyed. hector, we'll bring you into the

conversation. hector is a true expert on democracy across latin america, has followed and focused on these issued for many years. we've seen some interesting developments across latin america. that's impacting venezuela. we've had elections, we've had governments that might have been traditionally reluctant to say or do much about a sister republic that has all of a sudden become much more interested in addressing these ises in concert with some countries like canada and united states and the others. we also have the g 20 in your home country of argentina. i wonder if you have some thoughts about those issues which you can bring to the table. >> thank you, eric. thank you for inviting me. nice to be here always. let me try to put that together with a couple of things that i had prepared that largely came out of my sunday column just a

few days ago. the region has been sort of moving in the right direction, not only because of elections, but because of changes in the persuasion of different governments. it's not a question of whether left wing or right wing developme governments have won elections or whether the region is coming together, although it's not doing it as fast as we would like it to happen. it's timid. it's very hesitant still. apropos that, one of the things i said on sunday was that the latin american countries -- it's time for latin american countries to sanction just the way the u.s. did it, canada did it and the european union. switzerland which is not a member of the european union.

it's time for latin americans to do it as panama did it. it's not impossible. they know the assets. in the argentine media way back, the residence was in the papers, the most expensive and most exclusive country club outside . technically to not recognize the election entails to not recognizing a government form as a result of that election, which technically it means to pull out ambassadors. i don't think that's a good idea. i think that if nothing else, ambassadors, you know ambassadors, latin american ambassadors are the witnesses of what's going on there. if they leave, there are no witnesses left.

moreover, i think the ambassadors should be more engaged, not less. it's surprising to me that the lima group has not sent ambassadors when this crisis started just last week. it's been already ten days and we have no news of the political prisoners there. >> this is the prison where they're holding -- >> yes. they had a riot last week. this is a situation that the relatives are there. nobody knows what happened. nobody knows if they're alive or dead. and i think the international community that is there has an obligation to be part of this and demanding information at the very least. the other aspect for this

current international juncture and especially for the latin americans is that to deal with the elephant in the room, if you want. we haven't pronounced the word cuba here yet. as long as 20,000 in the more modest estimations or 50,000 in the more audacious estimations of of political prisoners in venezuela is going to be more than we can hope for. the cuban military officers are there to give people a way to point fingers to those that are later arrested. like it just happened two days ago at one of the services. it's time for the cubans to pull out and the international community has a role to play

there. cuba is literally an occupation army. it will not go anywhere as long as that continues. cuba wants to trade, cuba wants investment, cuba wants integration. all right. there is a political negotiation there pending that needs to be faced. the other thing that i think it's extremely important now is i had a conversation with a couple of leaders. it is time for the government in exile to be created. europe had during the war, during world war ii nine european countries had a government under occupation. venezuela is also occupied by a

series of criminal organizations, as we just described at this table. well, there is a supreme court in exile meeting and ruling. there needs to be a executive branch as well in exile, which would be the national interlocutor with foreign governments, wherever they are, that a prominent political leaders of venezuela, colombia, argentina, canada, the u.s., europe, in italy and in france and in spain obviously. that would be a way to also perhaps have ambassadors in exile in those countries. different interlocutors for their governments to deal with and get better information, more information and help more.

finally, we need to start thi thinki thinking -- the situation has been described today and described in every piece of news that you can fin around, infant moy worse tha syria, the worst humanitarian crisis that we've seen in the americas, the worst refugee crisis that we've had in the continent in history. the definition is extremely important, but we also have dealt with the internal. [ speaking foreign language] >> -- in the case of colombia. it's time to perhaps explore the possibility of the largest recipients of venezuelan refugees and start with the u.n.

technical term is humanitarian operation. indeed that is what humanitarian intervention is. there is an under secretary for human affairs at the u.n. internal human affairs at the u.n. it's time to work out all ofhe diplomatic steps, and humanitarian intervention entails some degree of logistical operation. humanitarian workers don't go there by themselves. they go with a force that protects them. by definition they go in conflict zones, and this is a conflict zone, and the maduro regime has systematically rejected in the form of aid, and he will continue to do so because of reasons explained already. their own policy of starvation, in ukraine. written profusely. it's pretty much a cuban recipe,

right. whoever can leave, you know, and whoever stays, stay is subjecs , and then the help needs expedited and the internaal community has to act upon what it is. it will continue to worsen for the remaining of the year, for as long as the maduro regime is in office, worst refugee crisis we've ever had in the americas. on that note, thank you, eric. i'm going to stop, you know, and i'm happy to continue. >> hector, thank you as well for your outstanding comments. that's a lot to take. in three outstanding presentations. jennifer, i'm going ask you to react to some of these comments. give you the first opportunity to do that, but hector also raised a rather provocative comment subtly in his comments,

and it's one that, you know, you talked about the elephant in the bazaar being cuban. i think there's another elephant in the bazaar or room or wherever we want the elephant to be, but issue of humanitarian assistance, if the government doesn't accept it, someone's got to push it in there, and that implies some sort of use of force, do the it no? jennifer, let me ask you tha very provocative question because as a master of the international multi-lateral process, you can help us sort that one out. >> thanks for the use of force question. >> you can dodge it if youant to. >> hi, everyone. welcome, everyone. i'd like to represent the government of canada. thank you very much. the comments we made at the outset were very quick. this is a complex situation. there's a lot to say, and as much as i said there was a lot that was left out one of which is contributions that canada has made to the humanitarian situation. it's -- you can't impose

sanctions and not consideration of the impact that they will have as well, so, you know, numbers very quickly, $4 million through the international u.n. system which hopefully can get things in. also $2.2 million that's being channeled more locally, and our ambassadors in the region are active and engaged and visiting soft many areas where the impact is being felt in particular in brazil and colombia. you use the tools that you have at hand, and i think it actually throws it into pretty sharp relief. the reason that aid isn't getting in isn't because aid is not being offered. there's plenty of humanarn siance out there, and there are plenty of evers under way to try to address the needs of those impacted by this crisis, but the government of venezuela continues to refuse to allow this. american institutions are trying to do their job and trying to do something about their rise of diseases that have previously been eradicated, and i think we need to continue to provide support, political, diplomatic,

as well as moral support to those that are being affected by this -- by this crisis, but at the end of the day the responsibility is clear. it has to be squarely on the shoulders of those in the government of venezuela and those in power inland ose w areupportg the regime. those either through their actions or lack of actions are allowing this to continue, so those who refuse to take action in areas like the oas, those who refuse to stand up and join in doing the right thing, what our own documents have said and committed us to doing. they i think must also ask themselves some tough questions about what responsibility they bear. the government of canada has been act i have to try and put pressure on the regime, and we've been active to try to mitigate the impact of the crisis. we've done this globally, and we've done this within the hemisphere. we're trying to create as many partnerships as we can do it, but the most important ones are those within the government of venezuela and those who will not stand up and do the right thing, so i suppose that would be my

answer to that. >> mm-hmm. fair enough. now, i think that's -- that's very well said, and for those who may not be familiar with all the familiar paho is the p american hospital oregonization. >> you're the economist on the panel and we've talked a lot about sanctions. on the one hand, we've talked a lot about sanctions. the obvious implication be that they are not just squeezing individuals for corrupt and anti-democratic acts but we are ear collectively squeezing the macro economy so that the government finds it in its interest to return at least to some sort of democratic path. is that the impact that's going to be had? in other words, as governments are taking these steps support that going to have -- how do i

put this? will it have the intended impact, or will there be other unintended consequences? how are you viewing this and what could be done further? >> that's a great question. i mean, the way i view it there's two types of sanctions that have been so far thought about, so the first ones are the ones tt are already in place, and the u.s. always tries to close some loopholes that are still open in other countries which are stopping venezuela from -- the venezuelan government from issuing more debt. so just to give you a sense. venezuela is highly indebted as we all know. it actually have selectively defaulted. actually i saw that they stopped even paying -- repaying some of their loans from the interamerican corporations which is a couple hundred million dollars. back about ten years ago venezuela could have paid off all of its external debt with four to five months of exports.

today they need over five years of exports to repay all of the debt so it's completely unsustainable. the reason we -- that venezuela reached this path is because they did ectly the opposite of what you would learn in your first economics, macro economics 101 close in the very first 30 minutes which is when you have an oil boom like the one venezuela had during all the 2000s, you don't go and spend all that money immediately and then borrow even more. you actually save some of that money because those are the seven years of the fat cows and when the seven years come you have the savings to deal with the bad situation. that's what -- chile did that, for instance, with the boom from -- when with the copper. minister zelasko was very creative in doing that. that's the right thing to do. norway also has that with oil. venezuela and chavez, that's why

it's important to talk about the previous government, and maduro. they are responsible. they overspend all the money. while the strong private sector and price controls and that's why the government wasding f imports. guess, what, when the price of oil goes down and you don't have any more money to borrow, you can't import anything and that's why imports fell by 80% and people are dying of hunger and there's no medicines and you go to the last resource which is to start printing money and even though some great economies in the venezuelan government think there's no link between printing money and inflation, i think that it has been proven scientifically that that's quite not the case and that's the reason there's hyperinflation. the collapse in the economy which translates no a 30% to 40 boston drop of gdp in the country has nothing to do with the sanctions. these types of sanctions, the sanctions that are stopping the government fish ewing more debt are important. they should be there, but to me

they are just cosmetic to be honest, because this country even without the sanctions they can get more debt. nobody in their right mind, i wouldn't definitely, lend a penny to a government, anybody tohis government who not going to pay back, right? so the worst sanctions of all are the sanctions that the government impose on themselves with their very irresponslemacr. and, therefore, i think that the sanctions are good to be there smetically, but the sto that they are really affecting the ability of the venezuelan government to manage the economy is -- is fictitious. i mean, it's really their mismanagement that got us here, so -- so there are broader sanctions that i think -- following up on what one says all the options are on the table so there's a lot of talk of sanctions for the u.s. to stop buying oil from venezuela.

by the way, the government of venezuela, they are so against the empire, and they keep the diplomats from the s., why don't they stop selling o to theu., right? they don't want to do but i think speaking more as an economist and in terms of the medium and long term. i think that that would be a bad idea. not only because it will, of course, but more pressure on the venezuelan people as a whole but also because it's going to have huge impact in the long run. even if we think that there could be another government at some point, there'sething very important with exporting -- with the u.s. buying oil is that the refineries that are in the u.s., if they are being -- if they are not being used for venezuelan oil, they will be taken away -- they will be customized to refine other types of oil, and that process of getting back into the market is very costly, so it will really affect, you know, any other government in the future. the one -- and just between us.

the one thing that i believe is really important and i thi there's much more room to deal with that are the personalized sanctions as we spoke. they should not be only forecast. i think it's really important to what one was -- what juan was saying and i'm really glad he said that, to really -- the international community to real together, not only to stop these people -- to freeze their assets and to stop people who have access to this stolen money but also to have people not to visit this the country. there are people who visit think kids in mexico and hang around and use all their mey. why is the international community allowing these people to get into the country? they should be persona non grata and be banned from america and asia and the caribbean and north america and everywhere else, and the last thought is these personal sanctions they should continue. they should start also targeting middle to high-ranking officials

and their first-degree family members, and if we can learn something from gang theory, i thk about a way this can be done progressively and even announced so that if people -- a middle ranking venezuelan government official or military officer knows that a month from now sanctions -- targeted sanctions are going to jump him or her, maybe they will have an incentive to really come against the government so i think to play around with the idea that this could be progressive could really make -- have a huge impact. >> would love to explore that further. we don't have time, but let's take a rain check on that because that's a really interesting idea and contribution and also your point about the narrative that's causing the economic collapse. that's the most comfortable place for the supporters of the regime, and they still exist inside and outside of venezuela to retreat to, to blame the

international community, particularly the united states, for sanctions which has nothing to do with the collapse of the venezuelan economy. thank you for that and thank you for bringing in and putting in the responsibility for the chavez government. hector, we're going to turn to you, but we voenl about five minutes because jennifer has been called to a special session to the oas and see if show can get the final comment in and ybe we can squeeze an extra two minutes of your time. hector, your final comment in five minutes or last. >> first, comment for dany about policy. you provide in latin america countercyclical policies is chile because they are the only onesnd it has a set of institutions designed for that purpose. norway is in europe, and norway health benefit of discovering democracy 100 years before they discovered oil so, you know, this is the -- the resource

course is there in whether it's oil or copper or foreign borrowing, the effect is -- has always been the same. the boom-bust cycle of latin america. comment about sanctions is absolutely. i mean, there's present to be done in the realm of personal sanctions, targeted sanctions, absolutely. relatives of thugs and criminals in power are not guilty, but using monies that come out of corruption and robbery, well, that is a crime as well, and, yeah, they shouldn't go to jail perhaps, but they shouldn't be traveling europe and north america as freely as they do. and one more thing about personalized sanctions, and there's nothing more personalized than this. on tuesday the report at the oas on the possible commissions of crimes against hunte is coming out. i've been told it's a pretty

substantial report with a few hundred pages, and -- and with the recommendation of the independent panel of jurists, one is a canadian and the other ones a costa rican, and to be referred to the international criminal court, and, well, the international criminal court lays responsibility on individual for the commission o crimes against humanity, not on states so you can't get any more personalized in terms of sanction, a countries will have to -- the latin american countries, the members. oas or even the observers of the oas, a good number of european countries, will be potentially good candidates to join this effort and refer the report to the international criminal court, and that will be perhaps a good opportunity to good

collective action strategy among the countries. so, thank you. >> well, it's very clear, and -- and the venezuelan crisis is not your typical, if we can say that, latin american crisis. th is different. it's his tore nick a negative way and it requires in some ways a historic and strong response from the international community in my view. i am delighted on behalf of the council of the americas with the depth and timeliness and the sophistication of this conversation. it's been fabulous. would i love to extend it. we simply don't have the time. i hope all of you at some point will come back to the council. my only regret is the that it a takes a humanitarian tragedy to bring such wonderful speakers and analysts to the table this morning. nonetheless, on behalf of the council and all of us as bald, would you please accept our thanks and congratulations and offer to come back. ladies and gentlemen, please join me in thanking our panelists.

[ applause ] we're dismissed. we're dismissed.

be with us tonight for an event from harvard university's radcliffe institute. they recently hosted a panel with former state and defense department officials from the george w. bush and obama admirations as well as "washington post" columnist david ignasius. among the topics called american foreign policy since the cold war. watch this at 8:00 p.m. eastern, online at c-span.org or with the free c-span radio app. also coming up tonight, author and gun rights attorney steven holbrooke talks about the second amendment at an event organized by the long island federalist society. he have's successfully argued three gun law cases before the u.s. supreme court and watch this at 8:30 p.m. on c-span2, online at c-span.org or listen with the free c-span radio app. now, coming up tomorrow education secretary betsy devos will testify before a senate

appropriations subcommittee about president trump's 2019 budget request for her department. we'll have live coverage tay rning startg at 10 sack eastern here on c-span3. tonight on why the the communicators," american cable association president and ceo matthew polka and tds telecom senior vice president of corporate affairs andrew petersen talk about the issues facing rural and suburban broadband providers. >> we serve so many areas, 35% of our customers don't have access to traditional cable provider. very rural in scope, so in many instances tds is the only provider in those areas. we've worked very closely with the federal government, the fcc on programs that make partnership investments with private sector companies like tds through the federal universal service program to bring broadband to customers that didn't previously have it or have adequate broadband,

bring them more rich, robust broadband in the future. >> i do think it's very important that as the administration, the fcc, congress considers infrastructure like proceedings d other concepts, that bev band is and has been determined to be a matter of important infrastructure to our country and to our national policy. and that's a change pause typically we think of infrastructure as roads, bridges, railways, et cetera, which are all very important and need to be -- need to be helped, but you cannot survive today as a business, as an individual, as someone working from home in our economy without having a robust broadband experience. >> watch "the communicators" tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span2. c-span, where history unfolds daily. in 1979, c-span was creed as a public service by america's

cable television companies, and today we continue to bring you unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court and public policy events in washington, d.c. and around the country. cspan is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. >> the app economy and trends in mobile technology was the focus of a recent senate commerce subcommittee hearing. witnesses including a diverse group of industry representatives and stakeholders. senators used the 80-minute hearing to dissshe potential impact of net neutrality legislation on the field. >> gooternoo and welcome. today's subcommittee meets to examine the state of the app economy and trends in mobile technologies. i'm glad to convene this hearing with my good friend and colleague ranki member schatz. over the pas