secretary testifies before the house education and workforce committee about his agency's policies and priorities. 2:30 p.m., kentuc senator rand paul defends a subcommittee hearing on the financial impa constitutional ications the u.s. military action under the existing authorization for use of mitary force. a new report examines the ways radical groups like isis munich eight online. we are showing how authorities can interfer online communication and recruitment. jesse morton, a former g hottie who became an informant for the f vi took part in a discus am i is about hourd half. thank you for coming this afternoon. thank you for those who are watching this today. this is the launch of a paper.

this is from evolution muslim to islamic state that was cowritten by [ indiscernible ]. he was an investment bank and -- banker on 9/11. he saw the planes cras the towers. he went to columbia and do a studies in ma. he joined the new york police department where he became the head of intelligence analysis. one of the most impo taetth he had was a group called revolution islam. the other author helped found the program. they will talk about the report. candace who was involved with this as well, when she was that u..t anisa valued colleague, will make observatio, and we

will open it up for a wider conversation. i will hand it over to mitch. >> good rnooever first fall, i would like to think of new america. thank you for hosting us today. when approached about the idea of a paper written by a former g hottie extremist and counterterrorism professional, there wiing it and support us. it's an unconventional request. i appreciate your willingness to go wrong with this. we would like to think our editor. it was interesting timing that we are he.

the collaboration of this paper between jesse and myself was triggered one year yesterday. what that was was there was an attack in london on the bridge. e individuals in a n, as you remember, drove e van on the bridge, knocking people into the river. they jumped ouhe van wearing fake suicide vests and proceeded to enter market, tacky people. they entered 40 people and they killed five before they were subdued. what attracted my attention beyond the horror of this attack , and they did this in the name of the islamic state. it was not controlled by the islamic state, but the leader of this group was an dual. he was a member of a group called [ indiscernible ]. this

is a group that is well known innew lhi, and the islamic groups. they did provocative demonstrations in the uk. they often talked about the black flag over downing street and parliament. more importantly, at various times, as ma as %, when we are talking to british security forces, as many as 50% of uk terrorism suspects at some point in time past through this area. why was that of interest to me? well, it turns out that the united states and new york city specifically, there is a group called revolution muims that was led by the same group. this is a spinoff from this other group. inside the new york city police

department, we looked at as many as 15 cases of individuals in the united states and overseas tosee who radicalized violence by following revolution muslims, either actively or in actively. they observed what revolution muslims doing. you can see these folks right here in the bottom left-hand corner. what is interestingand what struck me was that this has been going on since 2001. the fellow on the top right corner is an individual, and new yorker. he allowed the world trade center smoldering. after 9/11, he left new york. t tothe military academy. he went to st. john's pharmacy school. he went go be the first to post 9/11 foreign fighter. what group was he radicalized

by? [ indiscernible ] in new york city. here we are 16 years later, he and his affiliates are caing death and destruction around the world. the elements of the new york story had not been told. when i was writing is, the idea was, how about we write this about the individual. ached out to jesseand he was interested. ntthank jee for his hard work on this effort. i could not have done this without him. [ indiscernible ] did not see action in afghanistan or pakistan. he did provide materials, sleeping bags, night vision goggles, to al qaeda. he also participated in a training camp in 2004 where some of the 77 bombers were involved. again, he has deadly

connections. with talking with revolution muslim, you have to understand that in the united states, first there was [ indiscernible ], and then there was the spinoff called the islamic society in new ty. th jesse hae of his colleagues left the islamic thinkers. the society talked. they were not radical enough. they were not provocative enough. as a result, they spun off into revolution muslim. people talked about the origins of this program. you had to go back to his career. in the 1950s in the middle east, that provides some of the background for this. why would you think this was so

important? what was always on my mind was thinking about revolution muslim comment some of the unknown stories, was that revolution muslim was responsible for these 15 different individuals around the world. many of these eve heard of, but you may not of understood what the connections were to revolution muslim. some of these i mentioned, we have a comment on whether they were active or passive. that means theyreinteracting with jesse and his colleagues with revolutislimon they talked about should i do this, should i travel abroad, jesse was helpradicalize them some of them are much more passive. some of the individuals wanted travel overseas. ke these folks from new jersey that wanted to join the folks in somalia. and there was sameer con, he was killed in a drone strike. he met with jesse before he

left for yemen. you havedaniel [ indiscernible ] who was connected while overseas. not only were they foreign fighters, they are individuals in the u.s. who plotted terrorist attacks. an individual named josi [ indiscernible ] who tried to build a kitchen -- a bomb in his mom's kitchen and then wanted to attack the new york subway system. we d an individual like [ indiscernible ] who wanted to fly a drone into the pentagon. he had been in an interactive relationship with jesse and his colleagues. you have people like jihad jane, who is a passive follower who wanted to travel overseas. you also have individuals in e uk who had a plot against the london stock exchange.

all of these different plots around the world come back to revolution muslim. from the nypd standpoint, this was the jesse that knew. he was demonstrating in new york city, in time square. this was may 1, 2010. some of you may remember is the day that alex mensing drove his vehicle into time square and attempted to explode it. it has nothing to do with jesse and revolution muslims in particular. he was two blocks away, early in the day, dng his provocative demonstrations. we talked about another piece at west point about nypd using undercover informants and civilian analysts.

we had digital undercover's to thwart their plots around the world. that was on the policy side of it. we'll talk about that during the questions and answers. i will set it over to jesse from there.>> thank you madge. thank you for having us. the primary complaint that revolution has them has, when we split from them was twofold. the first we felt that they had not recognized the growing influence of the internet and the role it should play in recruitment. number two, they were unwilling to support al qaeda publicly. we different in that. for them, street demonstrations and real-world activity was a means of relinquishing yourself from this and that would be associated from not calling for the reestablishment.

for us, the internet was a means of creating a globalized network that could run parallel to identifications with the nationstate with the west or whatever. you can say that the efforts that we gauged and were essentially the onset of a virtual influence. we included everything including eating and smoking, writing on the subways, playing in the backyard. we shot everything we did. we gave a full countercultural perception to our followers. we imparted the message that this image is not just about the ideology. it was about putting the ideas that we were disseminating into practice. an important principle that we utilized was the off-line activity that i discussed fed

the online practices peer where founded on septber 25, 2007. [ indiscernible ] while he was there in new york city for a general assembly and united naonevent. i was at columbia at the time and started that day in class. anderson went on to become the dean ofamerican institute in cairo. by midafternoon, i was indebted with my associate who had go on to become the cofounder of revolution muslim. [ indiscernible ] this was photographed. it appeared the next day in the new york post. ereaer, it appe over anti-islamic websites. we should how quickly the power of creating controversy. we work consciously polarizing society. it was not just us. we do see that that has evolved

today. every time there was a need to point evidence that muslims in america wanted to establish area law, we had one piece of evidence, it was always us. we benefited from th we recorded everything we did together. that was the manner in which the off-line happened. we would radicalize you online before we encouraged you to act in the field. that's what distinguished us from the other group. one of the other things that was very important[ nc] >> it was very important for us to influence the mainstream media. it was not so much about what was going on online, it was an effort to be controversy also that the media would cover you. it gave us a sense of

legitimacy and the ability to reach a de audience. we are constantly covered on cnn and fox news. are constaly cored as the group that was small. the way they covered us made look larger than we were. for followers that made us re legitimate acti we appeared regularly on anti- american outlets. ve edge of intellectualism. the longest-running public television talkshow had there. that allowed us to solidify the movement inside of the minds of our followers. it helped with recruiting new individuals. another of the efforts that beenasred was the utilization of soedia. at a point where we launched in 2007, there was a major transi internet discussion forms and websites as a course for which the jihadists ideology and propaganda was disseminated.

we were migrating at that time, looking at youtube. in 2008, received the dvd into make a -- jamaic it an hour half long debate. a segment of that showed him telling a cleric, catholic cleric that jesus himself reached jihad. he asked the cleric to look up a piece of evidence. it's an al gore in the gospel. one segment of the allegory, the cleric does cleric did not know it existed. he humiliated the talkshow host. it was an interesting exchange. i experimented with a digital editing software for youtube clip. it's nine minutes in length that shows the return of [ indiscernible ]. he was released from incarceration in britain. that clip went viral. we realize quickly the power of social media 2.0.

this was the start of the revolution the growing popularity and became a major movement of our radicalizing effort. to this day, the video has been sent on youtube all over. it cannot be taken down, or it s not been taken down. it has millions of views. we knew that this was powerful. jihadist jane was covered as someone who had subscribed to our influence channel and was influenced by . it was the case is set up the idea that we are transitioning away from a primary concern for and orders directed to oversee into a leaderss, lone wolf style threat to the homeland. once jihadist jane was covered as a strategy and subscriber to

our youtube channel, that's when we are able to make the transition. hadists and became american as pine as british as afternoon tea. for example, particular importance was the case of [ indiscernible ] you stabbed member parliament 2010. it was in her interview with law enforcement that she said, the two primary means of her radicalization was revolution.com and listening to lectures. this continued to happen time and time again. we saw the internet facilitating a progression from radicalization into actual action. it was not just youtube. the eventual indictments against that, but there was a total internet domain. revolution muslim you social media platforms all over.

we were the first jihadist organization to access all of the new social media sites. we transitioned into becoming the primary source for information as opposed to online forms. the other effort we engaged in was the design of the very first english-language magazine. one of the key connections and associates [ indiscernible ]. before he left for yemen, we started what was called jihadistecollection. it was authorized. i will read the article from the first edition. it only ran for four issues. when you compare damage, you can see that the template is nearly identical. send design nten

it is considered that the evolution associated with discernment, combining together provided the first time where you had an opportunity to become a virtual product. now, people embedded with jihadist mentality can get tech skills, and being radicalize in their own country. this was not just here is an import to the west from jihadist organizations, but it's very much in export. this is an american-stylto organizations overseas. this is an image of a program that most people are not necessarily aware of. in 2009, we used this to set up

a website to have an online class. this is an influential teacher such as myself would coordinate sessions and would discuss religious principles and follow it up with a discourse about current affairs. administrators were mostly female. type a nose to the students in the room and give links to the propaganda. we could chat durg the discussion. there would be a question-and- answer session. they would get responses from the preachers that were preaching. for those that had an interest in donating, or contributing to the movement, they could ask more questions for engaging on one-on-one discourse. the administrative groups would stream them and talk them into an instant messaging platform. was t unlike the way that telegram is using their options with isis.

they moved to encrypted channels. then they went off to other monitors. it's not that much different. isis developed its on language -- online english radicalization. this is one of the claims that we make in this paper. there is a lot that can be discussed within the regards to that. many of the details are regarded in the paper. one of the key concepts that we imparted was working with you. that's a term that was coined by zachary [ indiscernible ]. he is my co-conspirator. in march 2010, in an article on revolution muslims, we utilized this term. the following months, when we threatened the writers, it caused a lot of controversy. there was a woman in washington started a facebook page called everybody celebrate mohamed a. that led indonesia and pastan to shut down the facebook. in that moment, they launched the first edition of this

coming from [ indiscernible ].>> this allows the woman for the woman who did to be assassinated. that initial article included the article that mitch referenced. this is a recipe that has been utilized in several attacks up to today. they just launched the teleam channel that was well viewed. the first thing they launched with every edition of the magazine in the english language recently. basicall this allows muslims to look at this at home instead of traveling abroad. in the same manner that isis suggested, five days af [ indiscernible - heavy accent ].

immediately, they had a section of that titled just their attackers. it's a replication of the open- source jihad model. finally, as they leave the territory, is sr revotion. you can see a few of the slides on screen, showing examples of isis's supporters picking up the model and template for radicalization. they translated, in american or western way, content that they are finding coming from isis. they're doing is in the english language, to mainta its influence. as it becomes a rtuaoption, will replicate what we did in the aftermath of 9/11. also, in the aftermath, when people assumed that al qaeda's threat was diminished, we had a

summer been lauded posting messages saying we should endorse it. they change the ideology to become truly islamic. during this time, in 2011, al qaeda and groups like the islamic state became a brand. they became an idea. that's how they maintained their influence. waiting patiently what they consider to be a war of attrition to bankrupt us so we can no longer interfere in the middle east. meanwhile, after 2011, revolution was shut down. it stayed on pal talk. recruitment continued. while there was no group, there were still dissemination of the ideology. that's what made a lot of westerners, who are pre- indoctrinated with the idea, flocked the announcement that

it had been resurrected. we have an opportunity toattack radicalization and recruitment. in order to go further and attack the idea, come up with effective means on attacking extremism, we need to undersndtemplate and ideology of recruitment and radicalization. that's why we wrote the paper. this is historical progression. when isis came out with their social media apparatus, and its ability to tap into mainstream coverage, this was something new. this was a long revolution. one very interesting quote is one from michael [ indiscernible ]. he developed a famous model for waves of terrorism. he started his religious work in 1979. this model is jumping a

generation. they say a wave of terrorism is composed of organizations. organizations have different rhythms. normally organizations does -- disappear. one awaits energy cannot inspire a new organization, the wave disappears. resistance, political confessions, changes in the perceptions are critical factors in explaining the disappearance. as this has changed, son in large part by supporters. they are discussing the variables. military operations must continue. [ indiscernible ] let's not lead us into complacency. that was the mistake we made after osama bin laden.

when the united states and its allies pulled out of iraq, and were less concerned in the middle east, also at the same time, they failed to effectively implement the initiatives to advance them. the revolution was a template and ideology. it was the methodology. it might have evolved from a qualitative and quantitative perspective. it's not different. that's why we need to understand it. and contractor, safe to help us focus on attacking the ideas. by attacking the ideas a better understanding the networks, we can break at the networks. that we individuals who were associated with revolution, will not resurrect themselves. there are a lot of good chances of that. thank you very much. i look forward to the discussion.>> obviously this is

a big deal. it takes a lot ofcourage. it takes a lot of patience and perseverance to untangle all of rands. congratulations on doing that. for me, most striking part the paper was a tactical level. the first, look how quickly the twitter verse has mushroomed. over the last decade or so, more striking than that is, the clasc le between bureaucracy and innovation. that is the story of all intelligent failures.

there are some things that are simple on that front anyway. the nypd clearly showed that it to innovate. ssons from 9/11 it took tswho cod out there and collect information in communities where you have abspeakers. it turned out that the surprise where the data speakers. they were the ones to look out for. again, that's another lesson learned. this is a lesson for the bureaucracy. the lesson comes in surprising and small ckages. on the policy side, obviously here in washington, we have discusconcerns from dhs neeto get ahead of the ist. curve. what this at is at

if there's an unwillingness to engage with the key issues around radicalization. we have the need to have some sort of intervention and methodology. there is a fundamental we need to have assessment tools. we need to have psychological assessment tools. there are specialist here that could speak to mu better than i can. clearly, there are deficits. in terms of what the bureaucracy is able to do, in handling the problem of what seems like a relatively small group of people. as we know, in the french and belgian content, it's quite large.

there are severe policy implications going forward in terms of the isis core being di they may float back online and mushroom there. there is this challenge around ders that will turn back. are in they will come back with passports. they may not have been detected. they will come back from iraq and serious -- syria. the possibilities there. the bureaucracy is not prepared foth. when ilkabout the bureaucracy, talking about the combined bureaucracy of homeland security, state departments, and other international city apparatuses. one of the reasons for th the typical response, the bureaucracy throws money at the problem.

this is an unfocused manner. that's where we are right now, unfortunately. there are lessons to be learned. does not command the paper. we have talked about the fact that the uk scandianple presents an opportunity the united states and its bureaucracy learn how to deal with those coming back from iraq and syria. we need to create opportunities r ose who are exiting. that waythey can reintegrate. that's the other big challenge that we do not want to talk about. are talking about the return after serving your time. we are learning how difficult it is for a whole bunch of people. it's not just former jihadists.

gang members, all of these folks struled the samething. the complete lack of a social safety net for those who have been incarcerated and serve their time. in fact, i think our system, we can acknowledge, it punishes you ter you served your time. you will be deprived of mental health care. you have to transition back into the social fold. these are big issues. you guys allude to that in your report. is important to grasp onto that. most importantly, for the bureaucracy, as it struggles, as the apparatus struggles, and we struggle with this problem, there's a great temptation to throw a lot of y at the online probl there is a huge off-line problem in terms of foreign fighters, and force integration

processes. that's critical. we can see, in the case of the troubles in ireland and other instans, whe those who tried to leave the fight can be very constructive in managing the reintegration process. they can be, peers and resources for those getting out. >> thank you. what is interesting, are the predictions about the future. let's try. i do think that the point of the paper is absolutely true. i think folks took an it became the isis template. let's accept that the fractured nature of the middle east is

going to produce a son of isis. we do not know what it will be called. it could link up with other elements. it will use the isis template. the question is, what will they do with it that's different? let's assume that they will not be able to take over territories the size of the pop -- united kingdom. one area that is in question, and one idea is, these groups have always taken whatever the latest technology is. for al qaeda, at the beginning, before was al eda, it was [ indiscernible ]. it was called the jihad. before that, it was called [ indiscernible ]. right now, the most interesting technology is virtual-reality. is it possible for jihadist groups, encouraging people not

to ndjoin them, but to set up virtual-reality training camps? is that the next wave? >> that is a fascinating idea to think about. we have been listening, and evyone else s as well. they listen to podcasts. i can't help but think about, o out thtrainees being in a room, and the fact that isis had their detailed diagram entry and exit points for particular landmarks around the world. from that point, it's not much of a leap to say, ay, now make that available was some type of encrypted way for people who love virtual-reality to walk themselves through how they get into the building.

you turn right and you turn left, and you can see the terrorism groups using this for hotels and hostages. that does not seem that far- fetched. before that, they had diagrams and floorplans, and the ability to walk people through all of that. the counter toit is, the idea of it is fascinating. is >> i remember when you looked relution has him. i was very skeptical. i did not know jesse rsonal. el like ese were a bunch of clowns. they seem to be moronic. these are not a bunch of great thinkers. they were making a lot of noise. i remember that we d not take it seriously. you are paid it to take it seriously. let me do you think, it was easy to have this group that was

marginal. this is a classic example of somebody who has never met anybody, and was completely radicalized in her bedroom. she loved the revolution. how did you see this coming? did you have some sight that other people did not have? how did that work?>> i remember those conversations. we were not the only ones to have that conversation. where ask about what the real threat is of these guys. are they just fabulous folks making a lot of noise? we had a phenomenal analytic group. there out in the audience today. they were very keen to look at what was going on around the world. they looked at revolution muslim , and see how they operated.

with not being a part of the washington bureaucracy, not being around sce 1947, we came to this with humility. we say we were new to this. ith s go out et w french, british, and german. with meeting with the british, and hearing about what they were seeing with members, and those associated being radicalized. eingthat in the u.s., and it was like okay, this is a mirror image of that. we haven't seen people travel overseas to pakistan yet. it certainly was solvable. the group itself may not commit an attack. is the people who spin off. all these guys do is demonstrate times square and make a lot of

noise, actually want to do something. i want to get into a fight. it's the people who leave the groups are the ones to keep an eye on. that ended up being the case. >> as you mentioned, zachary, remind the audience, he is in super max right now. he was inciting bombs because of the betrayal of the prophet mohammed. you can say all sorts of things about the prophet mohammed. what you can't do is incite violence against people. you cannot incite violence to people who might go and do something about it. u meing very interesting. we have hundreds of people who will get out of prison. [ indiscernible ] is getting out of prison soon. people sentences are coming based on the data we look at, we haven't seen a lot of data. radicalization. uch

when people come out, what is your review on this? some people become more radical prison. it's their way of protecting themselves emotionally and physically. i was in communication with [ indiscernible ]. it was fascinating. he said i lied, much more radical now. i took that some degree to be total bravado. maybe it is true. how do you deal, psychologically and prison? sometimes you just have to become the baddest on the block. what happens to these guys when they get out? can we do?>>

essentially, you had an individual who had a very affluent background. he was educated at a himself with one of our writers. he was raad that this was necessary. he went on to travel and join in somalia. it shows when he writes the letters. i write letters to him as well. let's just say, i'm not a psychiatrist. there are indications of narcissism. they will get out much further down the road. the exception being [ indiscernible ]. the way that we dealt with the after 9/11 was very problematic for my perspective. [ indiscernible - low volume ] essentially, we created an echo chamber.

we have more details of what the units are. the communication management isolated units for peop have various affiliations. some of them are environmentalists. they are predominantly jihadist. you get many examples where, they're supposed to be monitored with all their communication. somehow in some way, that's not the case.>> why is that? what the theory? why are people put in these units? >> the idea is, if you put jihadist across the federal prison system, that one radical individual could radicalize an entire population. they could coordinate planning with other inmates that are about to leave. it is problematic, because these individuals, many individuals who are in communication management will be here for six or 7 years. you are embedded with this guy

for 20 years. one of the biggest propaganda is inside of this unit was the played an tstandg rnible ].he influential role. there was a lot of conversation about jihad, and how it needed to be cleansed. [ indiscernible - low volume ] when you put them in an incubator and echo chamber that's problematic, it's a psychological and polarizing option. instead of coming home, now they move away. now, they disperse this to showing where they are being housed. >> [ indiscernible ] >> this is problematic.

we need ge something in place now. is less risk associated with reduced sentencing. they have more inability to provide them the services they need. the interesting thing, they are communicating with people that have been released. they try to come up with a methodology, and a pragmatic program that will help. the most important aspect of the fact that you are unemployable. you tarnished. it would be very easy to hypothesize or speculate that an individual might go to the organization where there's no future for them. they may revert back to violence. >> where you at? >> my process his employment. i got t of prison in march 2015. i worked very hard to do radicalize. i did that on my own with no i worked th the fbi as an

informant online and off-line. i became america's first former jihadist. that was a long process. was outed as an informant. this is not what could not get regular employment. [ indiscernible ] it was humiliating. in retrospect, i did well with it. i was fired from a job. ultimately, through a ng of hiring, i went public in august of 2016. i reverted back, not realizing that i had only dealt with the intellectual radicalism. >> i reverted not back to the r, went through

various stages, including a relapse. ultimately, i had a reincarceration for the time in >> where you today? >> t i'm in a public spot. i've accepted that i have a i ictake mion to banc it. luckily, i have a pro bono therapist to treat my trauma. i have been able to talk about some of the things i expericewith ab, early in my life. i have addressed that. d is, i thin i'm in a good space. i'm able to write again. it is very healthy. [ indiscernible ] the process read this paper has been beneficial.

>> tell us about that. >> with regards to mitch, i've talked about what has happened. all of a suddeniz that when i was an informant, when i was released in 2015, i came up with a methodology to experiment with whether or not jihadist believed that i had been releacooperation of law enforcement,or to peal ocess. i went and deube sohat i want to case and my influence was changed. essentially, i don't think anybody everwould have believed that i had the radicalized. i was immediately embedded. sty short, [ indiscernible ] was there. he was somebody that we identif that was brought to the table with regard to the fact that with [ indiscernible ] going forward, the charismatic preacher's were moving to the plainfield. that led an individu who is not an inherent to stay. i could no longer protest or discuss my grievances.

maybe i should just commit an act of violence. in the context of that, i discussed the identification of was regnizinglaw enforcement community have been aware of radilization. as we're watching it, we're saying, this is still a remnant of an ideology and organization is su to be defunded. >> how did you okup? >> mitch emailed and said i know you have seen what happened. if you're up for it, we uld probablyvery enlightening report that would be beneficial. i was open to the idea. we started to collaborate and shardrafts. one of mo amazing things was, even though i had derod ility function, when i came ho, i talked with david and peter. they talk with me on new

america. we started to talk about working on this per. it was a process of that unfolding, with editing advice, making sure that the paper included what it needed. to make did you disagree about things? >> i disagreed with mitch, maybe. >> is surprisingly, we have been in agreement almost things. for me, i nevethought that the project, one year later, we really were adversaries. this was a team of analysts. e jesse was a marked man for us. he was the bogeyman. not only were all of these people wanting to fly to somalia or pakistan. there he wa dancing first amendment line. for 5 years, we could not nail

him. >>was that a common >> yes, i was asleep are. >> did you overlap? >> i did not. it made is where the adversaries. [ indiscernible - low volume ] jesse was a challenge for us from a counterintligenc perspective. he had been tremendously well placed. online, we knew what they were doing. nevertheless, jesse was still radicalizing and recruiting people to mobilize for olence frankly, myelief is, if it had not been for these and in, not sure

how the story would've changed. the u.s. attorney's office in new yorkwa to touch the case. this is the freedom of speech. it's only when zachary crossed the line with the specificity of his threat at the park. they alwethe precutor to be out there on the line. everything fell into place from there. >> dig into that for a minute. in the united kingdom, this is a crime. you can say anything about anybody in this country. what was the line that they ossed? specifically what did he do that made the difference?>> [ dier- w volume ] my

ultimate charge was communicatinreat. what he did was posted a picture of [ indiscernible ] dead on the street with a knife in his back. slightly that the riders were lv >> he was an individual that owned [ indiscernible ] pick he made a video that wa inapprriate or defamatory against muslims, including the women. a moroccan found out how to access him, took it upon himself to attack them on a bicycle and killed them in cold blood. this was a clrefence. that was not sufficient to make that a th. he followed it up, not just by predicting it, but justifying why they could be harmed under

the islamic argument. he posed references about where they were located. that's where and judgment entered into the realm of a threat. >> that model in d off was adopted. one of the key people that migrated, and had technology skills was very key about dealing with names of officials , and intimidating them. the attack might not be likely, the probability of that happening might be minuscule, it's still an effective means of propaganda to show that you have this capability and the ability to locate people.>> if you have a question, wave your hand. identify yoursf. this gentleman here the front. go for the mike.

>> thank you very much it is fascinating and maybe i will address the question to jesse. if you were the cnn version of online jihadist, who was fox news? or your anti- or your competitors or t and perhaps >>pe question. -- >> never thought of that. >> abc/cbs. >> maybe, this is gointo be, obviously from what the discussion, an ongoing problem, or to both. what can be done online, you know, in terms to counter?

>> so if you were to consider revolution was in efforts to cnn and this fox opposition, and deradicalization of fox news or separate entity, i think it is a important point you make. at the time there was no such thing as tve, in britain they were implementing programs, et cetera, but here the american muslim community leadership chose not to give attention to not amplify our voices. that is when the criticism started, muslims in am unwilling to deannounce terrorism for radicals. they felt-- d it happened several times. the youth group sent a publication, great from our audience. basically labeled him a hypocrite, rebutteed his argument. same thing happened with suede, they backed off, there wasn't

much of a countervoice. greatest amplifier was the far right extremist and wu knew it. the co-- knew it. the fofounder says-- cofounder says muhammad, introduce me, we are watching down e street and he says i want to start this organization called revolution muslim. he said you have an ivy league education, i am just a clown, i said what doi to offer? i saidyou are a clown, be great. if you wanted to get on fox news or cnn, you just do provocative stuff and the right wing blogs pick it up and you have further polarization and argumentation, that is the they way wanted it. it wasn't until people started to lop ideas about extremism, 2011, barack obama launches a plan. by that time there wasn't a lot of sport. it wavered with implementation depending on content. there wasn't much of an

opposing voice, not one directly for fear they would amplify our voy, when we-- voice, when we went on cnn with a viral interview, muslims came out with a suggestion that sensationalism that was required to get ratings, in the main stream media, we were nimenting and not showing enough positively. that was one thing, i think we learned a lot from that at time. it is important. >> grand wood argument that is i am summarizing the argument. what do you ma ofhat? >> isis is not islamic, it is very islamic, essentially. i think it caused a lot of controversy. i think it is unnecessary controversy, i think all rehave interpretation and every should be considered

valid, regardless of how irrational it is. i think isis ideology and adherence, worse than al qaeda, is a strand of religion that needs to be addressed and understood. is the down playing of the role, like mateen, who goes into pulse nightclub and called a 911 operator, pledges allegiance, he says revenge for higher level. you see reporting that says no it had nothing to do with ideology until transcripts were released, it is homophobia. other coverage it was because he was an ouight home sexual. i-- homosexual. i think it is cotorrt ay that is what it represents, islamic intrperation but they refer to sex more so than 99% of the moderate-- the way they skew the text. to counter that, understand the nuances of the ideology, i

think this is where we make mistake with relying on main stream, not necessarily quoting the sa basis they weren't and don't know how that basis is a thorough understanding is needed in order to refute the ideology, not saying ideology-- i thought it was all ideology and assessment of wanting to find the truth. now i realize it had lot more to do with this, but radical ideas and acting upon it. esse correct >> i think you raised a couple of important issues. elogical debate, in the muslim community, here in the united states, also abroad. around whether you are talkin isis or something else. i think the divide, even in my own work and writing about isis, i rarely referred to isis

as isis, i don't subscribe to the idea that it s gitimate government. that is not what was represented there, it esially cooked up version of tyranny. with a lot of-- you know, very attracted to people. that debate is really a very important one in the sense that i think the muslim community here is not-- it has a lot of debates abwhere ey sit with regard to legitimacy of the argumentation, the thelogical debateerize very real-- debates are real. the other piece is to remember, prior to 9/11, there was always anti-muslim to a lot of the way we talk about the muslim community here. but obviously afterwards it became more, certainly i think the arab springs unleash new torrent of debate around where does the muslim community

really sit inside the united states? in the meantime, of course, we know well nypd case in court racial profiling, that this is very real concern, that it does lock up to the line, association, freedom of speech, protection from undue search and seizure, all of this is in here. hard to ignore. very hard to ignore. even more hard to ignore, i ink the, the-- think, the muslim community feels profiled, feels that it doesn't have a space anit is assumed to be, and therefore can be profiled in some way or another. i mean, there is a real twist here that i think in the u.s. case, wrestling, but there are parallels, i think in belgium, in particular, and in france. belgium is a very special case.

i lived there for a long time, where you have the culture, and religious lines, and i don't know in that case, that may be the more dire case than even the united states or fran in terms of how to grapple with the issue of muslim identity in the european contract. what that means for it muslim community who are, you know, in the situation where if they take ownership of jihad and jihad debates, then they are responsible for everything. i don't know if the law enforcement community grappled with that. i guess you would be better >> in ofthe potical t. role for the muslim community? >> i think in the use it is really early days, you know, i was in belgium two weeks ago and it was explained to me that in the brussels legislature or the political division, 25% of

the legislature is muslim. so, i mean, in the u.s. we have got one or two people here, not even registering on scale. but i imagine that will require more adjustments but i thinmeth the side of the uk, home of the head office is muslim. london's mayor is muslim. be argument to rebut the idea that is no pathway forward for muslim in the uk, wait a second, you can be whole nistry, you can the mayor of london. that level of achievement and participation in society is ultimately a good thing, that is the best counternarrative there is. >> i would say that it is not necessarily the political role of american muslims in europe that is ultimately important. one of the greatest is

tertainment, politics and participation in politics, even we impart cracy, participation in democracy, one of the earliest lessons, in one way or another. it is not just jihadists, policy also, and more progressives denounced participation in politics. showing someone with regard to in britain in particular, people that use ckboxing as a mean s of deradicalization initiatives. >> that raises a big question, one of the consistent american policy goals has been to kind of put it back in a box. now we have somebody moving saudi arabia from a consensus base monarchy to secularizing totalitarian dictatorship, but really pushing back in a very real way on the religious

establishment. the ry big thing he has done is, if you are in a divorce, a woman in divorce case, you can retain your kids without going th is-- is itha ne thing, way ahead of most arab states. so, i mean, how big a deal is it that you have them, that most liberals could find abhorrent. to what extent as part of your radicalizational, these ideas as part of the problem? if the saudis put the toothpaste back in the toothpaste holder, is that a big deal or not? >> so, um, i don't think it will be that effective in preventing radicalization because i think at this point, understanding saudi arabian are

fundamentally different than the agreements that coincide with interpretation and reinterpretation. i don't think it is a genie that can be put back the bodal. i think muhammad will prove to be more counterproduthan he was effective in attempting to do so. the ro recentat says basically that there is a coming war between the crown prince, the son of bin laden utilizing the setment for reform in order to counterthe idea that this man is in any way descending his son. they had release from al qaeda ksincontract wi world wrestling foundation to wrestle. same work is important, but a lot of times what goesis when conversation about fundamentalism occur is that it can be the biggest deterrent

from adherence to jihadists and the narrative is-- you might like to think maybe they can't induce deradicalization but they should play a role in ingajment. -- engagement. a movement where previous thingsied to modernize society and, in turn, allowed americans to occupy themselves on the arabian peninsula and reduced the transition into accepting the idea that the doctrine was most important through criticizing first, the king, denouncing him, rebellion against him, and transitioning into making his population or his audience aware that because they partnered with the americans, there would be no way we could overthrow saudi arabia as jihadist unless the americans were reduced to not playing the role of global

interior. -- interior. -- inferior. >> clearly from perspective, the two intermingled, those invibeing the ideology in early stages weren't sophisticated enough to understand differences where they existed, but i think, you know, the toothpaste is out of the tube, i think the is enough material online, published, that can't be taken off the field and for those interested in that, that it is something they can ingest and sort of metabolize and use to justify political actions that they may have for religious ven ear, lu-- veneer, legitimacy to do it. i might be hopeful about mbs, t i inmuch is out

there to pull back in a meaningful way. >> another question? >> jeremiah young, my question is mostly to jesse. you mentioned the mediums used , twter, whatever. sage; my question is more about the means you use to propagate it, possibly waiting for people to spread it for you? or doing outreach to market your message to other groups? >> i think that is very important, what we would do is anybody that expressed interest in us, to give and satisfy their need to be embedded in the network, we would give them a position, people were vying just to share our information on facebook, not only did that allow our message to resonate and reproduced many times over, it gave a person feeling like they were embedded in a part of the movement. i mentioned in the presentation, we deliberately recruited females from britain

living off the welfare state, good minister, why would we do that? men love women, number one. and number two, by making it aware women were participating in much the same manner that isis does today, we were able to say this is about everyone, right? it doesn't a gender bia and women have a role to play. it was ability to insert everybody into active engagement. a totally decentralized movement that anybody could participate with, no matter where in the world, could be loaded in-- down loaded in any country. >> we have the global content of policy speaking and she is head of global content for facebook, basically countertearism is a part of her. how would you assess the job facebook has done in countering these messages? >> better than youtube and take- down approach. i think whoever is involved at

facebook's headquarters has some more inovateive-- >> it is brian fishman, an american fellow who runs the counterterrorism. >> i was born in muslim, and i get my education in muslim. what i learned about religion, what isis is teaching their members, also in the summer when i was in musk to learn about villageing, same thing, i leard what isis now teaching their religion. it wasn't a surprise for me, isis occupation, muslim. lots of people in muslim actually welcome isis and i was working with an organization, non-profit. we did focus group inside muslim with some young,

actually, for first week isis, we did this. group with young people. some of them, i have the recosome so happy becaus this is first time leading under justice of islamic statefelt now, because of-- state. now, because of my work, every day i am facing people who post on social media, post similar with isis idea. when i inganl with some of them, tell them you believe in isis? there answer be no, isis is a terrorist group. you are posting isis on, isis is terrorist group. my question for all of you, how should we stop this idea? because i believe if we don't stop these ideas, isis will repeat and happen again

everywhere and every time in the history. thank you. >> can i ask real quick what-- i don't know how old you are, but with regard to education and upbringing, can i ask what time frame? >> back to the question-- >> i am so sorry, you don't have to answer. >> i was born in 1978. >> okay. >> yeah. so i mean, coinciding to sort of the transition with to rolelion played in the iraqi, particularly the military too, there was and coinciding to the promotion of islam by the saudi government. these things are trickling in all over the world and becoming the dominant thing to which interpret religion. i think it is not just about the idea, the amerrpinstitute, i think she said in order to counter that we don't just counter the ideology or break up the network, but need to understand the social movement and the way

it pulls, particularly in areas of conflict, make a base and formulate relationships with the basic community. and when you live in a situation like in mosul, where you had control of the government in the hands individuals, the military, personnel there, may have been- - explains why there is little resistant on to mosul. i think ideology itself is countered in terms we think of addressing the grvances that are valid. so, there is a series oof democracy, one of the papers new america published called all jihad is local, some places it can be about social economic variables, other it is primarily ideological. the other point, i think that what you will see now is what the social movement is called,

iswas so barbaric people accept organizations like al qaeda, i think you will see increasing resurrection but beneficial for e jihadist movement as a whole, like al qaeda became a brand, basically a corporation with franchise models. competition is good, right? in any way you want to allow yourself to experiment and inovate. gajihazations ganizaons are learning institutions. the benefit now is that the general population, maybe frustrated with isis's message, they may be willing to accept a more jihadi narrative and i thing that is why you see that. it would veer to the poor ideology that drives jihadism and presents a that has to be dealt with. not ju the idea at all, particularly when you talk the middle east. >> hol istic is very difficult, i mean you point out quite

rightly that the social movement is real, it is, you know, growing, et cetera, et cetera. but, look, black elephant in the room is big, poor government. what we know about iraq, what we go about syria, is that, you know, people to turn to religion often for ideas, not social justice, when ere is deep inequality, when the security forces and apparatus are targeted, are target populations that are part of the underclass, when there is deep inthe government. so, you know, of course there is isgrt tation to kind of talk about grievance and the abstract, but it is really important to understand one of the biggest investments that we are bound to make, is in regrowing and reconstructive government in places like

mosul, in such a way atere is much ft appeal in some of the argument. >> plausible, very good point. i am not going to venture into a long discourse on how we might th but i the oblem is mul recognize how people turn towards religion. largely consequences underlying political and economicth are ways, innovative ways, that we can deal with that i don't ow if current policy is pending in that direction. i think it is a good idea to stay in syria and have them stay but in the same way we aitary leaders and operatives in the convertis kind of can improve awareness inside of iraq and eastern syria with regard to things like that, and understanding the importance of giving people freedom d that is okay to do so, this is how structure, doesn't have to concn itself as long as they

providing effective governance to the people. isis was able ash d as an individual that lives in the middle east, i know how big a problem it is, they were welcomed by a large number of people. governance is important. tolly different. e is >> returning to the question at the beginning about people radicalizing what they might do, there are lots of radicals, very few become violent. but so thwould be lots of legalal impediments to using ai to lack at people and say who is likely to radicalize. i don't think, from, i am curious about your viewi think could be tool for a totalitarian state and t assessing, because of overtime, i think you could do a good sement, right? on tis >> yeah, i mean i think a couple of things. i am not surefacebook and

youtube aren't doing it, i think they are and sort of self regulatory manner. i think at the nypd we were doing it manually, we had an analyst who figured, what was the online, you know, motto? in person, radicalization we knew what it looked like. we reengineered who he was online, a mere con, a kid in queens beforehe bekim who he became, we-- became who he beca, cld see steps, ththeir name to, wh they were talking about, you could see it and it was manual. there is no doubt it can be done in terms of seeing someone change oveme the questionat is the point of intervention? is that information available open force? or is it something that is behind some type of privacy setting? that is maybe where the legal point is. you could clearly engineer when

he was a student at london, ucl, to him-- >> and there would noegal impediment to engineer this manually, just a lot of cases, not making this up but you have 10,000 cases. that you have ai to, no legal impediment doing . >> if it was part of their profile that was visible, it wasn't behind your privacy setting of facebook, theoretically there shouldn't be a legal barrier-- >> as a law enforcement official the fact social media was very useful for you to arrest people, because we always think social media as being dicalir, bu turned out to be rather useful by law enforcement perspective because people are dumb on so diand sastupid things which indicate what they are thinking, maybe they are getting smarter now, what was your experience? >> look, there was an evolution where it used to be "everybody met at a mosque." thwherats they radicalized. after 9/11, you know, wanna be

jihadists realized it wasn't a smart place to be a concerter. bemeirtual, or beyou and it know, what jesse showed there. it became that media where individuals could talk and interact and that was an area where people over repeated paicipation might change over time. , therwaan elent of exploitation, i would say i left nypd, but i imagine now it is the place linkerize coming-- links are coming, what are people posting? putting up the black flag on their facebook page? >> not>> horses and swords, may worth a second look. >> another question? did? last one. david was instrumental in this per happen. editor.

>> um, so, my question revolves around, in the report you do a great job on toxic and also on showing their contof islamic state or some ouslbig differences in what that means. going back decades. i am wondering, what wayour strategic vision of how you were doing tactically on social media would contribute to getting? and relatedly, could you see yourself as having a strategy? were you just entifying and encouraging others to identifywith figures abroad to add more knowledge of the strategy, but for u itmigh have been more absolidari or living up to a religious place? >> very quickly, i ink at the timewe launched we were the idea that erwas this

american exception of among the muslim community that due to socioeconomic variables they wouldn't be recept toofb the message but we-- receptive to the message but new the was an interest and would ensued in subquent years was proof of that. essentially we had the same ideology of al qaeda and the world view and we were actually abiding by a dictate story, essentially that altidea needed to become an idea and yo erywhere had an obligation to dissim nate the idea cause of the contraction phase of the ability to fight the field. we saw fulfilling that in the unit states&i doinour message was that different but we translated it into an american way, in a way we did that was making it ate, we had a fferent ap, would literally go scream at the american/muslim community at the mosque every friday, handing out dvds and a piece of literature, incredibly

written propaganda, but with use of as our-- use yusef as our persona, great when you look at a world with videos on youtube. >> thank you very much, mitch, and jesse, very brilliant presentation, thank you, candace for the discussion. please read the paper and give a big round of applause. live wednesday on cspan, 10:00 the house returns full work on combined spending bill for energy, water prects, the legislative branch, and military construction. on cspan 2 center returns for

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church," pope francis and catholicism. >> he thinks the church needs to change in various ways, particularly i think around issues relatedto the sexual revolution, marriage, divorce, and so on. where prior pope basically said these are changes the church can't make. wherhe with bishops hese places and theologians overhow far he can push the church to change, what the church can change without undercutting its own traditions or breaking face winew testament, the gospel ocheeses joois. q-- jesus christ. q&a, sunday night on cspan. now we take you to the center for strategic and