for the war effort. this is actually by mabel wright who is frank lord wright's sister. she was a prominent ill administrator in that day. another individual kind of rises to the surface from world war i. . yew see here also food conservation, this is i know we make everything out of corn today, but back then we didn't so this kind of new. again, one thing that's worth know the noting about this, in world war i, we were rationed. the government stepped in and rationed food. during world war i hoover believed as head of the food administration if you encourage people to act skrekt correctly they will ration food themselves. >> watch american artifacts sunday at 6:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv on c-span 3. up next, a forum on the political future of venezuela, the legitimacy of the recent election there's ant sanctions against the venezuelan

government. the council of the americas hosted this event. erchts ladies and gentlem ladies and gentlemen, good morning. welcome to the counsel civil americas. it's a real privilege to welcome all of you back here for what promises to be a fabulous conversation on venezuela and what's next for that deeply troubled nation. my name is eric farnsworth and i head the washington office of the council which for over 50 years has bane leading voice in the promotion of democracy, open markets, and the rule of law across the americas. on sunday, may 20th, the venezuelan regime led by nicolas maduro essentially reelected itself with elections that were rejeblingtd with unanimity by the international community. subsequently the united states and other nations have imposed further sanctions against the leaders of that regime in an effort 10 to courage venezuela to return to the democratic

path. in response, venezuela declared persona non grata in two states and the united states has retaliated in kind. venezuela has wants latin america's wealthiest nation with the world's largest preserves of oil now experiences hyperinflation, shortages of food and medicine, gross personal insecurity, and i creasing repression as the government uses all tools as its disposal to maintain its control. desperate people are leaving venezuela in a gathering humanitarian crisis with some estimate suggesting that one tenth of venezuelan's population now resides outside the country. meanwhile, other actors from outside the region are increasingly active in the country and they've developed deep relations with the regime which continue to grow. united states has clearly indicated at the very highest levels it's commitment to be counter the authoritarian march in venezuela. it's a complicate and difficult scenario. our program today seeks to

unpack the path forward and what the international community can meaningfully do to help support the long-suffering venezuelan people. we'll begin with introductory comments by juan cruz, the top official for western hem nis sphere affairs at the white house security council. he will be followed by a panel of experts, danny bihar, a venezuelan economist at the brookings institution, and hector schamis, an expert on political economy ondy mock contract tiezation at georgetown university. you'd please join me in welcoming each of them this morning. [ applause ] and i know it's an incredibly busy time for you, there's a whole lot going on. thank you for joining us and carving out some time for this important topic this morning. i'm going to ask you right up front, where do we go from here? >> eric, thank you. good morning and thanks to all of you.

when eric asked know participate in this panel he said i want you to comment on something about the elections and election results but more importantly on the way forward. you know, the united states there was no election there are was a selection. news flash, maduro won. and in this anyone who thought there would be any other outcome, i've got a fwroibridge sell them. nonetheless, there are a few takeaways from this election that i would leave with you. repeatedly maduro said he would win by at least 10 million votes. we know that he got substantially less than that, but a number that's too close to the very best electoral numbers that we have pulled together. i think everybody knows that that's fanciful. also trouble were the abstention rates and because of the opaque nature of the regime and their numbers, we won't nope, but probably 20 to be 40% of the people came out to vote.

that's very inconsistent with venezuelan electoral history. and of course the issue of recognition where it's been the -- just a handful of countries and the predictable few. and at to that if you're to believe the reports of arrested military over the weekend, i'd say that this representstor spells trouble for the regime, even one that's choreographed so finely. the ship is taking water and it's listing to one side. if i had to say something as we look back on this, when venezuela restores its democracy, history will prove that this was probably a lost tu opportunity for maduro. it was an opportunity for him to heed the please of the international community and for the catholic church for him to postpone these elections and do it under conditions that would be respected by all. so what's next and what have we done about this? you know that last week, friday, the treasury department

designated car baio and his money laundering network for corruption and i probably leave you with one thought, which is he's one of several people we have in the hopper. these are senior folk who deserve to receive sanctioning for their corrupt practices. we also sandwiched selection on monday with the president signing an additional executive order that, as -- if you heard or watched maduro's reaction to you can tell that it stunned him deeply. we've now sanctioned 70 individuals and had 40 executive orders under this president. and this is done primarily to punish those pillaging venezuelan coffers. but it's not just about punishing. sanctions are intended to change behavior. they're intended to change

behavior of those sanctioned so they can try to find a way out in cooperation and correcting their behavior. and it's also to be a disswassive factor from those that are doing the same or contemplating doing the same. once sanctioned, you want be sanctioned in perpetuity and there's a way out. i think that's a message we need to remind folk of as we look at it's not just a punitive measure or action. but it is to punish. and what i would say is it's to punish those who refuse to feed their own people. and so in this aspect i probably, you know, i'm tempted to compare them to poe pot regime and not the aspect that's the genocide, but let's talk in terms of the way they're starving their own people and how they use food as a political

ma l manipulation. d disgusting. the future lies primarily in the hands of the venezuelans, let's be clear about that. but the u.s. and the world will accompany them. but they need to do more and every citizen needs to do more. our options limitless. i know that people sometimes think that we have sort of played out everything that we could have done until now, it's simply not true. we will continue to pressure to restore democracy in venezuela. we will try ways to get food aid to that country despite the repeated resistance by the regime to accept that they're in need of food and to reject all the offers that have been made for humanitarian aid and food aid by a whole host of countries. and we will honor those who understand that the future of venezuela will be shaped by those who respect constitutional

obligations. now, it's not the first time that an event i cite articles from the bull varrian constitution, constitution written under chavez himself, a constitution that maduro is quickly laboring to undo, but that's the constitution that exists today. i'd like to read to you article 350 of that constitution which says the people of venezuela due to the republican tradition and the struggle for independence, peace, and freedom, shall disown any regime, legislation, or authority that violates democratic values, principles, and authorities or encroaches upon human rights. shorthand on the significant parts of that sentence. the people of venezuela shall disown any regime that violates democratic values and human

rights. changing themes here, we're coming up in short two weeks on the organization of american states general assembly and this san opportunity to see who sides with democracy, humanity and decency and what countries decide to swied cheating, lying, and starving of venezuela's own people. we will be watching and we will take note. and lastly, as a reminder, we will work with those, any country who's interested in restoring democracy in venezuela and bringing peace there. thank you. >> thank you very much. i know you have to go and i appreciate very much the fact that you've been able to fit us in. but maybe i can sneak a quick question in here before you have to take off. when she was at our annual conference just a couple weeks

ago, you asked ambassador to the united nations nikki haley also spoke eloquently about venezuela and she also talked about some of these themes. it's impressive the amount of firepower at the senior level, you know, from a political perspective that the administration is giving toward this very complicated issue. you alluded to additional steps that could be taken without trying to ask you to say specifically what those would be, i wonder, although if you want to we're certainly willing to listen, but to the extent there's anything further you could talk about perhaps timelines or things that you would be looking for from within venezuela that might be triggers of those additional would be very helpful. >> we're endeavoring, of course ever

immediately to -- oil sanctions mean for us probably 36 kinds of sanctions. we are very precise. we want to be very careful. and one of the things we always look at and desbhat kind of effect this could possibly have on the venezuelan people. make no mistakes about it, it's the venezuelan regime that's

starving them. we've even offered food aid. it's not us. but we don't want to contribute to that. so, but we haven't taken anything off the table. the president's very clear. we will leave all options open. what will we do next? we work in concert with all the nations who are like minded on this. and of that i'm very proud. we're in lockstep with all the leader group countries and the eu and we appreciate canada's leadership on that. brings added credibility for those who'd like to criticize the united states. and what i would say on this is we will be as creative as we have to be. we want to make the world smaller so if you're stealing money we want to make sure it's harder for you to travel somewhere to spend it. we want to make sure it's harder for you to have access to it, for your family members to have

acc verse f access and for you to enjoy the results of your theft. and we're working to make that group smaller and smaller for the venezuelan regime and those who prop up maduro. >> thank you. obviously we all have many additional questions we'd love to pitch your direction but we are mindful of your time and there are other things going on. thank you. ladies and gentlemen, would you please join me once again in thanking -- >> thanks, everybody. [ applause ] >> we are going to continue now with the panel discussion. and we have a terrific group, as i mentioned, and, you know, jennifer and ambassador loten gave a per sfekt e infect segue in terms of canada's leadership role on some of these issues. so i'm going to ask ambassador loten to speak to these topics with one quick acknowledgement and your government's

leadership, not just at dos and in the lima group contest and perhaps you might want to explain some of that but also in the g7 context as the host. for those of you who hnt haven't seen the recent statement from the g7 leaders, i call it will to your attention. it's fabulous. it's focussed on venezuela and this truly internationalize the topic. it's not an issue of latin america, quote unquote, this is global democracy and it's a certain at the very highest level at the g7. jennifer, thank you to you and your government for your leadership there and with that over to you. >> thank you very much, eric. it's a great pleasure to be here today and skand extremely pleased to talk with this group about how we see the unfolding kriessy in venezuela. and you just said what i was going to say so i might as well just back it up. you said it well. but essentially we consider this a problem that's happening in the americas but of global proportions and of global significance. and for that reason, we've taken

it in addition to the work going on in multilateral forum in the americas to other forums as well. what our objectives are in the americas by laterally and multilaterally are the same and have remained the same for the 25 plus years we've been members, and that's to support democracy and human rights. and the aos has done a good job of that in the americas. they've developed the strongest document globally that exists in the interamerica democratic charter. the problem is a failure to plaefrp meant. now do we give it teeth and make it matter? something else that's important to keep in mind is that what we're looking for in venezuela is nothing less than what venezuelans have identified for themselves. as warren mentioned, their constitution a strong document and it deserves to be implemented. venezuelans have a democratic history and convention but they deserve a democratic future and it seems unfortunate the support to achieve of that democratic future is coming from the

outside. the reason it's been removed, political manipulations and election that's globally been denounced as false. canada, the united states, we're not alone in coming to that conclusion. political prisoners, withholding of engagement by the opposition, hijacked electro commission. we all know the litany and the reasons why this election has been declared false. so what do we do? how do we use the international tools at our disposal to bring pressure on the venezuelaial government? the difficulty is it's a consensus based organization and i think to a large degree that body has adhered too strictly to that principle. if one country disagrees, they throw up their hands and say i guess we all must be wrong. i don't know a single other event, not even a cocktail party operates like that. generally speaking different opinions are allowed to be brought forward and a broad agreement is developed. the only thing that that consensus model or habit has

encouraged is that we end up doing what we are all willing to do as opposed to what we all know we should do. when you think about the history of the organizationing that produced the document, that produced the interamerican democratic charter, it's surprising to find ourselves up against a wall at this point when we can all very clearly read the words on that paper and what should happen next spot how do we uphold our shared principles? >> we've spent a lot of time reminding people what they are but how do we make them happen? the last time we made a strong attempt do to do that was cancun in the general assembly there. i think what we learned there, none of these efforts are ever wasted. what we learned there is that some member states are not willing to look at the situation and see it for what it is and take the steps they need to take. so we decided if we cannot bring the consensus model in a more serious conversation then we would move outside and do something else.

so the lima group was created. the idea was it would be a more nimble body to work with coalition of dounts bring international pressure on the situation. that's been quite effective. the members of the lima group don't exist in the americas, they're also members of the other body, g 20, g7. and we lls released a very strong statement the other day in the g7 under the canadian presidency. we also mentioned in the last meeting he fortunate lima group we brought in finance ministers in the say political conversation, but we're day deeper now. sanctions can be applied by laterally and canada has done that. they're targeted. they're not meant to be sanctions on the people of venezuela, but those abusing their position, those who are robs venezuela and those who need to be stopped. we've applied those sanction, but that's not. the only financial tool that the countries has at its disposal. and the more recollaborate the more we have. for example, the financial actions task force, all

countries have one at their disposal financial intelligence units as well. they can talk with their private sectors. they can ask for those involved in financial transactions nationally to be more careful about who they engage with, to be more aware of the risks that they're running of corruption. in addition, question take note of the existing democratic bodies in venezuela, and there is one and that's the national assembly. so transactions that the government of venezuela seeks to pur sthu do not have the authorization or approval of that body should not be considered sound. so in addition to sanctions applied by governments we can engage financial institutions and also the private sector and make sure they're aware of the situation they're putting themselves in and that puts additional pressure on the kbofrmt of venezuela as well. that was a step that the lima group took recently. at the americas that happened in peru, a statement was released at leader level calling for the americas to come together and to call the government of venezuela to account, not to proceed with

elections that were not going to be democratic. it's not the result that was undemocratic, it was the process and we all knew that. and regardless of what the result was going to be, the concern was there was no way that organized the way it was the election was going to deliver a democratic result, and it didn't. so the statement that leaders delivered, and it was a strong one, also called for better elections, release of political prisoners. opening a humanitarian assistance. i agree with juan as well. it's not the sanctions that are starving venezuelan, it's their government. the sanctions are intended to change that and one of the goals is to require them to open humanitarian channels. the next step by the leem group calls for a series of high level meetings that focus on the impact of the deteriorating situation. that's the refugee and migration cry sis and what else is happening in this crisis is the public health tragedy. diseases that we thought had

been erad indicated are now reemerging. and seeing these infectious diseases spread in the americas. they have done a great job of trying to reduce the impact of the infectious disease in the americas and now we have a political crisis undermining that work. so a heil-level meet thalg look at those impacts. one that and will seek to bring to bear international tools to deal with the refugee and migration crisis as well. and then the next thing coming up is the oas general assembly. cancun taught us a lot of lessons. you learn and you try again. our goal remains the same, that is the restoration of democratic order in venezuela. we can use the oas to help do that, but we need to be courageous and take a hard look at that consensus mod pelt we need to create a core of companies willing to take a brave step, willing to dots right thing, willing to implement the tools and principles that we've created for oufr ourselves and have done such good work in the americas and take it forward and do the

right thing. that means we need to consider this extension in venezuela in the general assembly. whether or not we do it at that particular event or call for the consideration of that article is something that countries will decide together. but we need to be brave enough to look at that document and to apply it for the purpose for which it was intended. that comes up very soon and we're working with countries with like minds within the context of the lima group and extend panneding that circle as well. in canada's mind, a multilateral organization like the oas of which we are members have to represent the principles of democracy and human rights, has to demonstrate it can do our jobs but we have to ask ourselves what's the purpose? those are hard questions and we need to be prepared. if we're not going to be prepared and stand up and do the right thing, why are we there at all? >> powerful ending comment. again, thank you for your personal leadership and the leadership of your government on these issues. it's meaningful, noticed and very, very much appreciated. we thank you for that.

we're going to shift the focus now from the international diplomatic sphere to more of an on the ground look in danny bihar was just on the border between columbia and venezuela looking at the humanitarian crisis and those of you that follow him on twitter. you should follow all of us on twitter. but he's been very -- well, haes he's been showing in realtime some crisis and tragedy that's been going on. it is a tragedy and a kries sit. dan dani, give us a sense of what's been happening and what can lens the crisis. >> thanks eric to you and the council for pulling together this event. thank the ambassador for being here and for your remarks. well, yee, i mean, i spe -- yes days in the town bordering

venezuela, one of the most important crossings that there are right now,e it's estimated that 30 to 35,000 are crossing every day from venezuela to columbia. a lot of them are crossesing for the day -- i saw mainly two kind of people there very lovely speaking. wns that were crossing for the day or for the week or for a few days either to work or either just to find some medicines or both at the same time. i saw mother's with their babies going to vax nates their kids. i saw people that were crossing to get insulin other wiess the husband was going to die. i saw a woman that had a doctoral degree in education who was cleaning the floor of a bus station and telling me she was fortunate to work there. she could make one money in a weekend there than her actual

job. it was terrifying. for somebody like me that i spend most of my day looking at my computer looking at data going to the ground it was terrifying. i don't think i met just five people that had the worst story. everybody person had a terrible story. i think the columbian government doing a great effort to help these people. the catholic church is also doing a great effort. they have a number of public dining rooms where they feed thousands of people every month. but i think that there are a few issues that we should take into account. first, there are some -- that the columbian government can do, first of all because these functions are not use to receive -- ironically venezuela was a country that received -- what they were receiving migrants in the continent and now things have turned around.

and some of these countries have infrastructure, they don't have the legislation really to deal with these massive flow of people. very few countries have, but i think like in america in particular are lagging in that sense. and this costs money. this is a lot of resources that should be put in place to help these people. a lot of these people are not -- they're not economic migrants, they're refugees. and i'm saying this in particular because that's one of the aspects that has been missing in this decision. i think that the governments of the region have been wary of calling this a refugee crisis. i think that the legal arguments who call them refugees are there. the original definition for refugee comes from 1951 it was basically mostly based on world war ii, it defines people who are more or less fleeing from wars. but interestingly enough, america put together a broader definition of refugee in 1994

under the declaration of -- which speaks of recognizing refugees as people who are fleeing from the countries because, among other things, massive violations of human rights, disruption of public order, and a few other things that if you spend two to three minutes in venezuela you would know that's definitely the case. so there are the grounds there to call these people refugees. i think this plays a role. because if you don't call them refugees, it means that the legal -- the legal track for them to work and remain in the country is something that you have to come up with. columbia has done some efforts but they're separate. they need to go to people that actually have a passport which is not the case for many, many venezuelans, actually even including me, i don't have a passport for a year. so i guess people who -- i never travel who are coming from very low backgrounds they even if they wanted a passport today they wouldn't be able to have

it, there's no money to print passports. and so the legal aspect is there. also the financial aspect is important. i think that the colum beeiabia are trying to make a big effort. we don't know how many venezuelans are in columbia. they talk about 750,000 official numbers. unofficial sources on the ground talk about more than a million people. and they are, as we speak, doing a census to try identify all these migrants that are -- that are also in the regular status and that should end within a month so we should have more numbers there. of course there are a lot of people who will be scared of going and register if they don't have -- if they're regular. they don't know the columbian authority has said that's not an issue. but it's important to note those numbers. once we know the number, i think

that we can have a sense of how many resources there are going to be needed. and we're talking about a lot of money. the u.s. has been very generous and other countries in provide something aid, but that's very much -- it's very much welcome but much more is going to be needed. but just to give an idea, if you take the cost of giving the basic protections for a refugee in countries like turkey, germany, jordan and lebanon who are the main countries receiving these refugees and you make a small back of the envelope calculation and put it in purchasing power of columbia and america, you're talking about $3,500 per refugee per year. so if i think a conservative estimate could be that you will be seeing perhaps half a million venezuelans fleeing the country,

most of them as refugees in the next year, and i think that's very conservative. we're talking already about $1.5 billion providing very basic protections such as how's, base economy food, education, health. >> that's on an annual basis. >> on an annual basis. just to give you a sense of why we should think of these people as refugees and why -- let me just put up also not to depress you this morning, but let me give you a sense of why this is the right way to think. i want to share with you some numbers of the venezuelan humanitarian crisis. venezuela is not at war. some other countries in war. but venezuela is very -- if you look at almost any statistic in terms of social humanitarian statistics or economics, they are very similar to any war. so for instance, the latest number rated -- 87% of

households in venezuela have been living in poverty, including 61% are living in extreme poverty. that's up from 48% and 22% respectively that in 2014. so in only three years, these numbers are almost doubled. there are strong cases for malnourishment. in 2017, about 65% of the population lost an average of over 20 pounds. the president jokingly and i think if in a very pathetic and disrespectful way called that mat dure row diet. 80% of households which are over 2.4 million -- will suffer from food insecurity. that should be 24 million, sorry. according to official numbers from 2015, the death rate of under a month old baby stood at 20 out of 1 thoup thousand,

which puts venezuela next to pakistan in terms of infant mortality which is the country with the highest infant mortality in the world. chooiptd child -- between 2018 and 60, 80% of pharmaceuticals nowhere to be found. over 60% of equipment to perform dialysis in the country failing or broken, so people are dying from renal failure because they don't have their dialysis treatment. malaria and what the ambassador was saying before, other diseases which venezuela was free of in the 1960s, one of the first countries declared free in malaria in the '60s, today weapon have about 400,000 cases. still, the major -- violent since between 2013 and 2017 the venezuelan observer to says that 130,000 venezuelans have been violently murdered in those

years. so, this is part of the reason that we see people fleeing. even though we're not sure about the numbers, we have some official figures that are already -- i think they're conservative but they're very scary. between 2015 and 2017 the number of venezuelans in south america rose from 90,000 to 900,000 in only two years. and as i said before, columbia said they have about 750,000. if you look at these figures, venezuela is not in crime, it's not in a war, but it's in a state of war. and that's why it's really important to understand that these are refugee crisis and it's important for the international community to rally together either center on the u.n. or any other organizations to provide the aid that these venezuelans need. because it's a situation in the country is going to keep getting worse, there's no reason to think otherwise, i think there's things other countries can do besides continuing with the

pressure on the roo jet stream is help these people who are fleeing for their lives. >> well, you can't fix a problem until you recognize the problem. thank you for bringing those statistics to us because i suspect many of us have been vaguely aware of the magnitude of the crisis but when you put it in those terms it really hits home. these are people and their lives have been disrupted if not destroyed. so thank you, danny. and hector, we'll bring you in now to the conversation. hector is somebody who say true expert on democracy across latin america, has followed and focussed on these issues for many years. hector, we've seen some interesting depp developmen interesting developments across latin america. we had goufrvernments that migh have been hesitant to say or do something against a sister republic that are now coming

together with canada and united states and others. we also have the g 20 in your home country of argentina. i wonder if you have thoughts about those issues that you could bring to the table. with that, we'll turn it over to you. >> thank you, eric. thank you for inviting me. nice to be here always. let me try to put that together with a couple of things that i had about the future i had prepared largely come out of my sunday column just a few days ago. as juan as saying, the region has been sort of moving in the right direction. not only because of election, but because of changes in the perception of different government. it's not a question of left wing or right wing governments have won elections but the region season coming together, although it's not doing it as fast as we would like it to happen, right?

there's some that are very hesitant still and up before that, the one thing i heard on sunday was that -- latin american countries, it's time for latin american countries to sanction just the wait u.s. did it, canada did, the european union, switzerland, which is not a member of the european union and yet switzerland sanctioned government official. it's time for latin americans to do it, panama did it. it's possible, they know the assets. the media way back -- residents was, you know, in the papers. and then most expensive and most exclusive country club outside buenos aires. so it can be done. so that's one thing. i also think that the

ambassadors should not pull out of venezuela because technically to not recognize the election entails to not recognize a government form as a result of that election. which technically it means to pull out ambassadors. i don't think that's a good idea. i think if nothing else the ambassadors, you know, european ambassadors, latin america ambassadors are the witnesses of what's going on there and if they leave, you know, there are no witnesses left. moreover, i think the ambassadors should be more engaged, not less. it's surprising to me that the lima group, jennifer, has not sent ambassadors to the -- when this crisis, you know, started, you know, just last week. it's been already ten days and we have no news of the political prisoners there. >> they have the prison where they're holding them. >> they had a riot last week. this is, you know, a situation

that the relatives are there, nobody knows what happened, nobody knows if they're alive or dead, and i think the community that is there has an obligation to be a part of this and, you know, demanding information at the very least on the condition of these political prisoners. so, the other aspect for this -- juncture and especially for latin americans is that to deal with the elephant in the room. and we haven't said -- we haven't pronounced the word cuba here yet, and as long as 20,000 and more modest estimations or 50,000 in the more ambitious estimations of major advisers

remain in venezuela, it's going to be very difficult to introduce the political transition that we all hope for. the cuban military officers are there to get -- to point fingers to those that later are arrested or, you know, just like it happened two days ago, one of the services. and it's time for the cubans to pull out and the international community has a role to play there. cuba cannot have literally an occupation army. and anyone -- they'll go anywhere as long as that continues. and, well, cuba wants to trade, cuba wants investment, cuba wants integration. all right. there's a political negotiation there pending that needs to be

faced. the other thing that i think it's extremely important now, i had conversation with a couple of the decision leaders, it's time for the government in exile to be created. europe had during the war, during world war ii european countries, nine european countries had a government -- under occupation. it was also occupied by a series of criminal organizations as we just described, you know, that the table. well, the supreme court in exile, meeting and ruling -- and there needs to be a collegiate executive branch as well in exile. which would be the national -- of foreign governments, wherever they are. they are prominent and political leaders of venezuela, pretty

much in every country, columbia, argentina, the u.s. of course, canada, you name it, europe, of course. in italy and in france and in spain, obviously. that would be a way to also, perhaps, have ambassadors in exile many those countries. different interlockters for their governments to deal with and get better information, more information, and help more. and finally, we need to start thinking the situation has been described today and describe every bit of news that you can find around, infant mortality worse than syria, the worst humanitarian crisis we've seen, the worst refugee crisis we've had in the continent in history. the definition is extremely important, as danny was saying,

in deed, but we also have dealt with the internal lasalles in the past in the case of columbia which in term was a largest number of refugees during the columbian conflict. it's time to, perhaps, explore the possibility of setting food on -- brazil, which are the largest recipient of venezuelan refugee that start with the u.n. -- intervention operation -- indeed there is one here -- there is an undersecretary for internal afards nebraska at the u.n. it's time to work out all the diplomatic steps and humanitarian intervention entails some degree of logistical operation. humanitarian workers don't go

there by themselves, they go with a force that protects them by definition, they go in conflict zones and this is a conflict zone. and the maduro regime has systematically rejected any form of aid and it will continue to do so because of reasons explained already. it's policy restoration starting in ukraine. it's pretty much cuba recipe, right, whoever leave, leave and whoever stays stays subgentleman gated. but then that help needs to be already expedited and the -- has to act upon what it is and will continue to worsen for the represent ma remainder of the year as long as maduro is in office, the worst refugee crisis that we ever had in the americas. on that note, thank you, eric.

i'm going to stop and happy to continue. >> well, hector, thank you as well for your outstanding comments. that's a lot to take in. three outstanding presentations, four if you include warren as well. jennifer, i'm going to ask you to react to some of these comments, give you the first opportunity to do that. but, hector also raises a rather provocative comment subtly in his comments. and it's one that, you know, you talked about the elephant in the room being cuba and i think there's another elephant in the room. but the issue of humanitarian assistance, if the government doesn't accept it, someone's got to push it in there. and that implies some sort of use of force, does it not? jennifer, let me ask you that very provocative question because as a -- as a master of the international multilateral

process, you can help us sort that one out. >> thanks for the use of force question. >> you can dodge it if you want. >> good morning, everyone, i'd like to represent the government of canada. we actually -- thank you very much. the comments we made at the outset were very quick, it's a complex situation, there's a lot to say and as much as i said there was a lot that was left out, one of which is contributions that canada has made to the humanitarian situation. it's -- you can't impose sanctions and not take consideration the impact that they will have as well. so, you know, numbers quickly, $4 million to the international u.n. system which hopefully we can get things in. also $2.2 million that's being channeled more locally and our ambassadors in the region are active and engaged and visiting some of these areas where the impact is being felt, in particular in brazil and in columbia. you use the tools that you have at hand. and i think it's -- it actually throws it into pretty sharp

relief. the reason that aid isn't getting in isn't because aid is not being offered. there's plenty of humanitarian assistance out there and there are plenty of efforts under way to zraets needs of those being impacted fwhi crisis. but the government of venezuela continues to refuse to allow this. interamerica institutions are trying to do their job and do something about their rise of duties that's previously been eradicate and i think we need to continue to provide support, political, diplomatic as well as moral support to those being affected by this crisis. but at the end of the day the responsibility is clear it has to be squarely on the shoulders of those in the government of venezuela and those in power in venezuela and those who are supporting the regime. those either through their actions or lack of actions are allowing this to continue. so those who refuse to take action in areas like the oas, those who refuse to stand up and join in doing the write thing

when our own documents have said and committed us to doing. they, i think, must also ask themselves some tough questions about what responsibility they bear. the government in canada has been act toif try to put pressure on the regime and we have been active to try to mitigate the impact of the crisis. we've done this globally. we've done this within the hem miss steer. we're trying to create as many partnerships as question do it. but most important ones are those of the government of venezuela and those who will not stand up and do the right thing. that would be my answer to that. >> fair enough. now, i think that's -- that's very well said. and for those who may not be familiar at all, the ininstitutions of the american stm is the pan american organization. we'll come right back to you, hector, but i want to -- because danny, retook the that but also you're the economist on the panel and we've talked a lot about sanctions. >> we talked about those. >> don't apologize. on the one hand here. -- but, no, we talked about

sanctions, the obvious implication they're not just squeezing individuals for corrupt and anti-democratic acts but we collectively are squeezing the macroeconomy so that the government finds it in its interest to return at least to some sort of democratic path. is that the impact that's going to be had? in other words, as governments are taking these steps, is that going to have -- is that -- how i do put this? it would have the intended impact or will there be other unintended consequences? >> how are you viewing this on what could be done further? >> the way i viewed it there are two types of sanctions that happened so far. so the first ones are the ones that are already in place and the u.s. always try to close some loopholes that are still open in other countries, which are stopping venezuela from -- the venezuela government from issuing more debt.

so, just the sense that venezuela is highly embedded, as we all know. it has selectively defaulted actually i saw this they start stopped repaying some of interamerican corporations which is a couple hundred million dollars. back about ten years ago venezuela could have paid off all of its external debt with four to five months of exports. today they need over five years of exports to repay all of the debt so it's completely unsustainable. the reason we -- that venezuela reached this path is because they did exactly the opposite of what you would learn in your first economics, macro economics 101 class in the very first 30 minutes which is when you have an oil boom like the one venezuela had during all the 2000s, you don't go and spend all that money immediately and then borrow even more. you actually save some of that

money because those are the seven years of the fat cows and when the seven years come you have the savings to deal with the bad situation. that's what -- chile did that, for instance, with the boom from -- when with the copper. minister zelasko was very creative in doing that. that's the right thing to do. norway also has that with oil. venezuela and chavez, that's why it's important to talk about the previous government, and maduro. they are responsible. they overspend all the money. throw it into the consumption while the strong private sector and price controls and that's why the government was leading off imports. guess what, when the price of oil goes down and you don't have any more money to borrow, you can't import anything and that's why imports fell by 80% and people are dying of hunger and there's no medicines and you go to the last resource which is to start printing money and even though some great economies in

the venezuelan government think there's no link between printing money and inflation, i think that it has been proven scientifically that that's quite not the case and that's the reason there's hyperinflation. the collapse in the economy which translates into a 30% to 40% drop of gdp in the country has nothing to do with the sanctions. these types of sanctions, the sanctions that are stopping the government from issuing more debt are important. they should be there, but to me they are just cosmetic to be honest, because this country even without the sanctions they can get more debt. nobody in their right mind, i wouldn't definitely, lend a penny to a government, to anybody to this government who is not going to pay back, right? so the worst sanctions of all are the sanctions that the government impose on themselves with their very irresponsible macro economic policies. and, therefore, i think that the sanctions are good to be there cosmetically, but the story that they are really affecting the

ability of the venezuelan government to manage the economy is -- is fictitious. i mean, it's really their mismanagement that got us here, so -- so there are broader sanctions that i think -- following up on what one says all the options are on the table so there's a lot of talk of sanctions for the u.s. to stop buying oil from venezuela. by the way, the government of venezuela, they are so against the empire, and they keep the diplomats from the u.s., why don't they stop selling oil to the u.s., right? they don't want to do that, but i think speaking more as an economist and in terms of the medium and long term. i think that that would be a bad idea. not only because it will, of course, put more pressure on the venezuelan people as a whole but also because it's going to have a huge impact in the long run.

even if we think that there could be another government at some point, there's something very important with exporting -- with the u.s. buying oil is that the refineries that are in the u.s., if they are being -- if they are not being used for venezuelan oil, they will be taken away -- they will be customized to refine other types of oil, and that process of getting back into the market is very costly, so it will really affect, you know, any other government in the future. the one -- and just between us. the one thing that i believe is really important and i think there's much more room to deal with that are the personalized sanctions as we spoke. they should not be only financial. i think it's really important to what one was -- what juan was saying and i'm really glad he said that, to rally -- the international community to rally together, not only to stop these people -- to freeze their assets and to stop people who have access to this stolen money but also to have people not to visit

this country. there are people who visit mexico and hang around and use all their money. why is the international community allowing these people to get into the country? they should be persona non grata and be banned from america and asia and the caribbean and north america and everywhere else, and the last thought is these personal sanctions they should continue. they should start also targeting middle to high-ranking officials and their first-degree family members, and if we can learn something from gang theory, i think it's very important to think about a way this can be done progressively and even announced so that if people -- a middle ranking venezuelan government official or military officer knows that a month from now sanctions -- targeted sanctions are going to jump him or her, maybe they will have an incentive to really come against the government so i think to

play around with the idea that this could be progressive could really make -- have a huge impact. >> would love to explore that further. we don't have time, but let's take a rain check on that because that's a really interesting idea and contribution and also your point about the narrative that's causing the economic collapse. that's the most comfortable place for the supporters of the regime, and they still exist inside and outside of venezuela to retreat to, to blame the international community, particularly the united states, for sanctions which has nothing to do with the collapse of the venezuelan economy. thank you for that and thank you for bringing in and putting in the responsibility for the chavez government. hector, we're going to turn to you, but we only have about five minutes because jennifer has been called to a special session

of the oas and see if we can get the final comment in and maybe we can squeeze an extra two minutes of your time. hector, your final comment in five minutes or last. >> first, comment for dany about policy. you provide in latin america countercyclical policies is chile because they are the only ones and it has a set of institutions designed for that purpose. norway is in europe, and norway had the benefit of discovering democracy 100 years before they discovered oil so, you know, this is the -- the resource course is there in whether it's oil or copper or foreign borrowing, the effect is -- has always been the same. the boom-bust cycle of latin america. comment about sanctions is absolutely. i mean, there's plenty to be done in the realm of personal sanctions, targeted sanctions, absolutely. relatives of thugs and criminals in power are not guilty, but

using monies that come out of corruption and robbery, well, that is a crime as well, and, yeah, they shouldn't go to jail perhaps, but they shouldn't be traveling europe and north america as freely as they do. and one more thing about personalized sanctions, and there's nothing more personalized than this. on tuesday the report at the oas on the possible commissions of crimes against humanity is coming out. i've been told it's a pretty substantial report with a few hundred pages, and -- and with the recommendation of the independent panel of jurists, one is a canadian and the other one is a costa rican, and to be referred to the international criminal court, and, well, the international criminal court lays responsibility on individuals for the commission of crimes against humanity, not on states so you can't get any more personalized in terms of

sanction, and countries will have to -- the latin american countries, the members. oas or even the observers of the oas, a good number of european countries, will be potentially good candidates to join this effort and refer the report to the international criminal court, and that will be perhaps a good opportunity to good collective action strategy among the countries. so, thank you. >> well, it's very clear, and -- and the venezuelan crisis is not your typical, if we can say that, latin american crisis. this is different. it's historic in a negative way and it requires in some ways a historic and strong response from the international community in my view. i am delighted on behalf of the council of the americas with the depth and timeliness and the sophistication of this conversation.

it's been fabulous. i would love to extend it. we simply don't have the time. i hope all of you at some point will come back to the council. my only regret is the that it a takes a humanitarian tragedy to bring such wonderful speakers and analysts to the table this morning. nonetheless, on behalf of the council and all of us assembled, would you please accept our thanks and congratulations and offer to come back. ladies and gentlemen, please join me in thanking our panelists. [ applause ] we're dismissed.

>> a look now at some programming coming up here on c-span 3. up next hhs sect alex azar talks about the administration's prescription drug initiative. the senate judiciary looks at election security.

at 7:15 the israeli ambassador talks with the faith and freedom coalition. our primetime lineup begins at 8:00 p.m. with a hearing on charter schools. sunday on american artifacts on c-span 3, tour the library of congress exhibit on the centennial of world war i which showcase ideas about the war. the idea of contributing the war through labor, the idea of growing your own food so as to conserve larger quantity for the war effort. this is actually by may wright. an individual kind of rises to the surface during world war i. you see here also, food conservation, wholesome nutrition foods, corn.

we make everything out of corn but back then we didn't. this is new. again one thing that's worth noting in world war ii we were rationed. the government stepped in and rationed food. during world war i hoover believed if you encouraged people to act correctly they would ration themselves. >> watch american artifacts sunday at 6:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv on c-span 3. this week health and human services secretary alex azar presented the senate health committee with the administration's plan to lower drug costs. tennessee senator lamar alexander chaired the hearing which ran about two hours.