>> so like we spoke about earlier with the budget agreement that cleared the way for a lot of this funding, that's really given both republicans and democrats a lot of what they wanted in this year's appropriations process. so as i mentioned, passed out of committee 48-4, so i'm sure there will be some democratic buy nas always there will be dissenters and no votes. but i would expect that this would pass with democratic support. >> roll call. you can follow his reporting online at cq.com. and also on twitterer at patrick kelly. thaungs for the update. >> thank you. >> up next, hearing on some of the advantages and challenges of charter schools. education advocates testify befo the house education committee on the value of charter schools. best practices for teachers, parental involvement, and concerns over access for

dreamers. >> good morning. a quorum being present, the committee on education workforce will come to order. welcome to today's hearing. i want to thank our panel of witnesses and our members for being here today as we talk about charter schools and the invaluable role these institutions play in the lives of millions of of students. all students regardless of zip code deserve access to a high quality education. that means giving students the opportunity to thrive in the learning environment that best suits their educational unique educational needs. every student is different and families should be empowered to choose whatever school best suits their child's strengths rather than being forced into a one size fits all approach. for many, charter schools are the best option for their students to hone his or her

individual abilities and build a successful life. while they are still relatively new on the scene, with the first opened just 25 years ago, charter schools have proven an immensely popular option. these institutions currently serve over 3 million students nationwide. while surveys show another five million students would enroll in a charter school if given the chance. in an effort to meet this growing demand, every student succeeds act, maintain the important charter school program. the new law included reforms not only to support the development of high quality new schools, but also to allow for the expansion and replication of high quality charter schools already found around the country. the reforms include requirements to help these schools improve recruitment and retention of students as well as to support better authorizing practices and reforms to help charter schools

access facilities financing. charter schools also face rigorous accountabili. these schools not only have to comply with the same accountability requirements as all other public schools, including the accountability requirements under essay, but they also face a rigorous approval process just to open their doors and have to meet the expectations of the parents sending their children to the school. too often students in under served areas suffer from a lack of access to educational opportunities and by default remain trapped in the failing status quo. when there is a community need for high quality primary and secondary education and the traditional public schools in the area are struggling to produce strong student outcomes, charter schools can offer students a lifeline. in fact, charter schools can be the difference between a student dropping out of high school and going onto purview post second

dairy education. data reported by the 74 million shows that charter school students from high performing charter school networks graduate from college at three to five times the national average for children frl low income families. i've had the privilege of hearing from countless charter school students and parents and they tell me the same thing, their local charter school provided them with new hope and opportunity when the traditional public schools in their area failed to past muster. over the weekend i saw that positive impact firsthand. i had the on who of speaking at the commencement ceremony for millenia charter in my district i've seen grow from the ground up in exciting inspiring place. it's because of schools like millen yam charter that more students in my district have a shotd at building a great life.

today's mir yad ways charter schools are changing lives. also presents an opportunity to commit to what matters most. giving more students the opportunity to receive an exhibit elect education that inspires a life long love of learning. with that, i recognize ranking member scott for his opening statement. >> thank you, madam chair. the title of today's hearing suggests that the power of charter schools is nothing but positive. majority of witnesses wit limited exception will describe a sector of schools tt is fixing our nation's allege ed'sly dismal system of public education, saving the children hand satisfying all parents. calls to increase charter funding and rapidly expand willing charter schools in every

community across the country. but such glorified telling is only part of the study. it is our job as policy makers to examine the full impact of charter schools both good and bad on the children and families they serve. as is usually the case, the truth about charter schools is complicated. there is some good, even great things happening in the public charter schools. there is some areas of serious and legitimate concern. large scale study of student data from 16 states conducted by center of research and outcomes at stanford university found that only 17% charter schools produce academic gain so significantly better than traditional public schools. 17%. 37% tv charter schools performed worse than their traditional public school counterparts, serving similar students. 46% virtually no difference. i used to say that on average, charter schools are average,

recent research is showing that on average charter schools are below average. public school education is bedrock of our democracy. noted by founding families and numerous supreme court justices. therovision of free developmental education to all children serves a compelling community interest. public school choice helps fully realize the promise of a public school system that delivers quality for every student in every public school, it has my full support. places like denver, and massachusetts has used strong oversight build a system delivering quality across the board. but if dernl and massachusetts are the bright spots, michigan and detroit in mitch is the stain on the record of public school choice. in early 2000, michigan ranked

above the national average of national assessment of progress. however, by 2015, scored lower black students in reading or math. detroit students scored below those in every other major american citizen -- city. thanks in part to political advocacy and financial support from our current secretary of education and our family, michigan has become a cautionary tale of flow market ideology applied to public education. the state legislature first enacted and then took steps to repeatedly weaken state oversight and charter authorization standards. in doing so, it invited a surge of unchecked charter expansion without planning or purpose. michigan is now what many refer to as the wild west of charter school reforms. in detroit 12 different authorities have opened and

closed schools without coordination or uniform standards of accountability. recent stud from michigan state university found that the financial strain on school districts, including detroit, is overwhelmingly caused by declining enrollment and revenue loss, especially where school choice and charters are most prevalent. thisesearch shows that as the state relaxed charter accountability, schools and cities statewide lost nearly half of their revenue in a span of just ten years. unlike states that use public school choice to improve quality across the board, michigan used charter schools to undermine and dismantle the public system. the state diverted public dollars to low quality for-profit charters, saturated the marketplace and then used the declining enrollment as a justification for other non-charter public schools. nowhere is this truer than detroit where there have been more than 160 school openings and closures since just to 10. as a result, students and

parents are suffering in a chaotic inequitable and underfunded public system that is devoid of quality and rife with for-profit actors overpromising and underdelivering. worse, not better. nearly 80% of the schools, charter schools are for profit with eight in ten charters boasting achievement below the statewide average. while the state took modest steps in 2016 to right some of these wrongs, more must be done, and i look forward to hearing the perspective of jonathan clark, a detroit parents on the impact of irresponsible policy choices. in 2010, the year before michigan lifted its charter cap, the state won a $7 million grant from the federal charter school program, the csp. it's the committee's responsibility to have honest dialogue about our role in protecting students and taxpayers from gross abuses before we increase funding and promote the expansion of public

school choice at the expense of increased federal investment and core programs like title one. in response to the ongoing operational challenges and in the charter school program, the csp fought to make improvements in the program. of particular concern was a significant risk to taxpayers posed by continued federal investment and states like michigan with extremely weak charter school laws that allowed unaccountable low quality schools to flourish. every student succeeds act includes a stronger provision focusing on quality authorizing -- focusing on quality, authorizing inequity for families and students. these changes were long overdue. it's a significant policy levered on improved charter quality nationwide while states opting to participate in the program need to improve practices for accessing funds. the policy approach fails to

ensure quality across the states. while improvements to csp are necessary and an important step, i remain concerned with the commitment in honoring the spirit and intent of the law by the present leadership of the department of education. giving the secretary's advocacy in michigan. there are serious and justifiable concerns under the president leadership. the department will not hold csp grantios accountable for fulfilling new program requirements, amend i'm concerned that the secretary will not prioritize funding for high quality charters that seek to improve student diversity in their replication and expansion efforts, a priority i fought to include. this will not be the first time that the department has ignored equity guardrails in the law. in 2016 i released the findings from a gao study on racial and socioeconomic isolation in public schools. the gao found that on the whole, public education was

resegregating and that rapid growth of socioeconomical and racial isolation in charter schools was a contributing factor. a number of highly segregated schools more than doubled between 2001 and 2014 from 7,000 schools to 15,000 schools. during that time there was a decrea -- while there was a decrease in the segregation of non-charter public schools the segregation in charter schools increased from 3 toss 13% n.2001, there were just 210 segregated charter schools nationwide. by 2014 there were nearly 2,000. the role of choice in educational segregation is hotly debated, but facts are facts. we now have more choice options than ever before, and a public system is more segregated now than any time since 1970. in a system where -- in a system

where fewer children are bound by neighborhood schools in communities segregated due to decade of discriminatory zoning and housing policy, segregation should be decreasing. instead, it's on the rise. studies have shown that choice policies around the world have -- in those studies we've had warnings that choice must come with checks and balances to prevent impact on quality and education. in a 2017 publication there was a quote that stated the risk of school choice and voucher systems resulted in higher levels of social regulation amongst schools, less social and cultural heterogeneity in local schools and less access to education of children from disadvantaged backgrounds and

this risk can be mitigated the way the systems are designed. choice devoid of choice will exacerbate segregation. in closing, again, i refer to the words of the article, the more flexibility there is in a school system, the stronger the policy needs to be. in other words, public school choice with public oversight and strong accountability can improve our system as a whole. choice devoid of strong policy will not. thank you, madam chair, and i yield back. >> pursuant to committee rule 7c all members will be permitted to submit written statements to be included in the permanent hearing record. without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous materials to be submitted for the official hearing record. i will now introduce our distinguished witnesses.

mrs. nina reese is the president and chief executive officer of the national alliance for public charter schools. mr. gregoritsch monday is the president and ceo of the national association of charter school authorizers, nacsa. mr. jonathan clark is a parent and community activist in detroit. dr. martin west is an associate professor of education at the harvard graduate school of education. i now ask our witnesses to raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear and affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? let the record reflect our witnesses answered in the firmative. before i recognize you to provide your testimony, let me briefly remind you of our lighting system. we allow five minutes for a witness to present testimony. when you begin, the light in front of you will turn green. when one minute is left, the

light will turn yello. at the five-minute mark your light will turn red. at that point i ask you to wrap up your testimony. members will each have five minutes to ask questions of the witnesses. mrs. rees, you're recognized for five minutes. >> great. chairwoman fox, ranking member scott and members of the committee, thank for inviting me to discuss how charter schools are promoting opportunity in america's schools. my name is nina rees, and i'm the president and ceo of the national alliance for public charter schools. the namech our organization reflects a fundamental fact about charter schools. charter schools are public schools. they are open to all students. they are open to all students with no admission requirements and no tuition. they are diverse in every sense. serving children from every background and ability level, located in cities, suburbs and rural areas offering a variety of school models that make education dynamic for students who learn in different ways.

one of the most uplifting aspects of my job is visiting charter schools around the country. a few weeks ago i visited dream charter school in a representative district in haar level. the school was organized by community leaders who saw that the children in their neighborhood needed access to healthy activities. it began as an athletic program on two baseball diamonds. it grew into an after-school program and a summer enrichment program, and finally realizing that they could have their biggest impact during the school day, the founders started a charter school. today, dream charter school serves about 650 students. 27% of these students have special needs, higher than the citywide average of 21%, and dream students outperform city peers and district peers on both english, language arts and math exams. dream is just one of 7,000 public charter schools serving 3.2 million students across 43

states. charter schools now educate 6% of the k-12 students nationally with much higher percentages in some communities. they are more likely than other public schools to enroll students of color as well as students from low-income backgrounds. where charter schools are available, students no longer have their academic options limited by their zip code. a growing number of charter schools are making diversity an essential component of their design alongside academic excellence, and leaders and cities such as denver, san antonio and indianapolis have pursued collaboration between district and charter schools in order to make high quality public school options accessible to as many students as possible. charter schools thrive where they have the freedom to innovate, to pursue diverse ways of teaching and to respond to the needs of students rather than the mandates of bureaucracies, and charter schools perform best when they are held to high standards.

accountability is a central value of charter schools. we know for public school choice to be truly meaningful, public school choices can must be of high quality. in addition to being held accountable to policy-makers and authorizers, charter schools are also held accountable to parents and caregivers who want what's best for their children. the growth of the charter school movement has been made possible by these parents and by the consistent bipartisan support from policy-makers. presidents clinton, bush, obama and trump have all supported charter schools, and democrats and republicans in the house have expanded access to charter schools through the charter school's program. we're grateful to chairwoman fox, rank member scott and the members of this committee for the role that you played in modernizing this program when you reauthorized the every student succeeds act. we're also a long way, unfortunately, from meeting the parental demand for charter schools. recent surveys indicate that an estimated 5 million additional

students would want -- would go to a charter school if one was available in their neighborhood. the need for more charter schools is particularly acute in rural areas and on tribal lands, but even in our larger cities where charter schools have their largest presence, there's still too many students on wait lists and neighborhoods that have no access to charter schools. the limited availability of high cost and high cost of facilities is one of the impediments to the growth of charter schools. charter schools often don't have access to the funding sources that support facility needs of district schools. charter schools must often meet their facility needs and using funds that they would otherwise support -- that would otherwise support their academic programs. it's a situation that requires immeat urgent assistance. recent funding increases in congress will help support the creation of hundreds of additional charter schools serving thousands of students and provide sorely needed

assistance to improve charter school facilities. the charter school community is grateful for this funding and looks forward to the federal government continuing to strengthen its commitment to charter school students. we appreciate the committee's support for public school options, and we urge you to do all that you can to make sure that charter schools are accessible to as many more students who want or need them. thank you, and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you. mr. richmond, you're recognized for five minutes. >> good morning, chairwoman fox, ranking member scott and members of the committee. thank you for this opportunity to speak with you this morning about heart schools. my name is gregoritsch monday, and i'm the president of the national association of charter school authorizers. we are all here today for the same reason. too many children in america do not have an opportunity to attend a good school that prepares them for success in

life. charter schools are one way but not the only way to give more kids access to a good school. for if we truly want all children in america to get a good education, then we need a systf education that is diverse and contains many paths. charter schools are an important part of that diverse system now serving 3 million systems and growing. more importantly, students who have traditionally been underserved are now benefiting. studies show that african-american, hispanic, low income and special education students at charter schools all show positive gains in math and reading compared to their peers in traditional schools. the charter school idea is based on three pillars. access, autonomy and accountability. when all three pillars are present and healthy, charter schools excel and more students get a great education. entities that authorize charter schools play an important role

balancing each of these three pillars. in most states, school districts authorize charter schools, but in some states universities, state education agencies, state charter school boards and others do this work, or some combination of all of the above. whatever the type of institution, an authorizer's job is to approve, monitor and renew charter schools. because they are public schools, ought ridese authorizers hold charter schools in many ways. some the same as traditional public schools while others go above and beyond. for example, charter schools administer the same standardized tests as all other public schools. they must comply with all federal lauds on special education and non-discrimination. they must conduct an lull audits of their finances. the in most states, they are subject to the same public information and transparency laws as any other public body. they can lose their charter if they perform poorly, and perhaps the most important form of

accountability, a charter school can only exist if parents choose to send their children to it. some of you may be thinking right now that you have heard of a charter school that has not complied about everything on this list, and this is certainly true. while most charter schools are doing a good job for kids and playing by the rules, some are not. good authorizers monitor the performance and actions of their schools and step in if something is wrong. however, this is not always happening. where we have significant problems with charter school accountability, the root of the problem is often poor authorizing. good authorizing is also essential for the other two pillars of chartering, access and autonomy. as public schools, charter schools should be accessible to all students. this means they must have fair and transparent applications and lotteries. no student should be appropriately expelled or counseled out of a school. charter schools have opened doors of opportunity to all students, especially those who currently do not have access to

a good school. a good ought rideser helps expand access for all students by creating equitable systems and providing families with information to make choices. a good authorizers makes sure that each school has the autonomy and flexibility to be innovative. we don't want a one-size-fits-all education system. children are unique, and we need a variety of types of schools to meet their unique needs. good authorizing makes sure there's a good balance between these three pillars, access, accountability and autonomy. the problem is we don't have good authorizing everywhere. we have a goldilocks, some are doing too much, some too little and some are getting it just right. the root of the problem is often poor authorizing. there is a role for the federal government in improving charter school authorize, but it is a

limited role. federal laws already provide appropriate parameters for special education and non-discrimination. in addition, the bipartisan reforms within the charter school program included already reward and encourage states to reward charter school quality. after that there is no one size fits all solution for child school authorizing in every state. every state has a unique charter school law, history and experience, and it's up to each state to take appropriate action. collectively, each of these bodies must uphold their assigned role to make the charter school model or any school model work. with many places all of this is actually working pretty well right now. just ask the millions of parents and families who are choosing a charter school for their child, but there are real issues, questions and opportunities involving charter schools with real consequences for children. so i'm delighted we're having this conversation. too many children in america do not have the opportunity to attend a good school, and when

done well authorizing can be a catalyst for charter schools that helps more children get that opportunity. that's why we're working to strengthen authorizing across the country, and that is why i thank you for supporting this work. >> thank you, mr. richmond. mr. charge. you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. good morning representatives fox and scott and members of the committee. my name is jonathan philip clark. i'm the father of seven wonderful children and an iraq war veteran. i work at mission city, a nonprofit that provides mentoring, tutoring and an arts camp during the summer. i live with my wife and four of our children. i also serve on the board of directors for a group of parents and students that advocate for a high quality equitable education for detroit children. of my seven children, three currently attend school in detroit. we have had children in public, charter and private schools, and we have had good and bad

experiences in all three, but there are few experiences in charter schools that i want to bring to your attention. my oldest daughter attd university yes academy charter school for four years. the students attended school from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. with two hours of math and two hours of english each day and a weekly college seminar class to help them prepare for college. the school also promised dual enrollment to the students. for the first three years the school kept its promises. then during dana's tenth grade year the two hours each of math and english were reduced to 45 minutes per day. the college seminar class was reduced to a once a month meeting after school and only some students were invited to attend. when we asked about the dual enrollment program we were told that our daughter who had maintained a 4.0 since kindergarten was not eligible

because she had not scored high enough on her practice a.c.t. test. uia had five principals in three years. an audit revealed that the school could not account for $300,000 of title i funds. the board cancelled the contract with the management company, then signed a contract with a new management company headed by the exact same person. a second new management committee decided to close the school a week before the school started. when parents and students pressed for answers we were ignored by the board. you may think uia was a unique situation, but around the same time my other two daughters attended two other charters with similar problems. the management company that ran both of those schools left in the middle of the school year, firing the principals and some teachers without notifying the

parents. friends of mine are struggling today at a school that has had five principals and two management companies in five years. others will point out that we had a choice. we could stay or we could leave. the system of choice is premised on the belief that the threat of us leaving will incentivize schools to get better, but parents don't want to leave. if you've ever had to figure out a transportation schedule for four kids at four different schools you'll understand what i'm saying. if you've ever had to watch your child struggle to find new friends yet again you'll understand what i'm saying. if you've ever gotten a different job just so you could accommodate your kids' schedules, you'll understand what i'm saying. when parents try to voice our frustrations and ask for stability in the manage president of the will school and for the school to deliver what it had promised, we learned that there wasn't an elected board we could vote out.

the charter authorizer we were supposed to go to was 350 miles away from the city of detroit. this system allows the people who are in charge, the authorizers and to a lesser extent the board members to have no personal relationship to the consequences of their decisions. these schools are not in their neighborhoods. their children do not attend these schools. the children of their friends and neighbors do not attend these schools. michigan's charter system has allowed schools toss promise things hand not deliver them and to continue to take tackpayer money without providing michigan and in particular detroit students a quality education. i encourage you as members of this commute toe remain vigilant in holding education secretary devos and this administration accountable for the charter reforms that essa enacted. her influence over the charter sector is no longer confined to michigan. based on my experience, i would

not wish michigan charter policies on the nation. the word choice sounds good, but the system of choice that we live in ruires my wife i to drive around our city for hours to get our children to and from their schools. it requires us to attend countless open houses and be wooed by promises of after-school programs, duel enrolement, advanced math and reading and state of the art technology and with mechanism to ensure that we will have been given what we were promised. this is my children's lives and ed chase. they don't get to do it again. even more than choice, they deserve a quality education, and parents deserve a voice in that education. thank you. >> dr. west, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. chairwoman fox, ranking member scott, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. my name is marty west. i'm an associate professor at

harvard graduate school of education and also a member of the board of elementary and secondary education of the commonwealth of massachusetts, our state's charter school authorizer. our appearance here is timely cop junction with the nation owes record card. a period of stagnation has persisted for a decade. a lack of progress has led to some question the model of student reform our nation has pursued in recent years. the questions are appropriate, but they sho not lead us to ignore evidence on one reform that has worked, the creation of charter schools to provide new public school options for millions of families, particularly those living in low performing urban school districts. the emergence of charter schools has been a state-led reform, but the federal government has provided the charter sector with critical support through startup funds, facilities financing and

since 2010 grants to replicate or expand charter schools with a strong track record. this is an attractive model of federal education policy, supporting promising state policies and encouraging, not mandating, that other states consider them. in my view the accumulated research on charter schools also speaks to the value of and continued need for these federal investments. it confirms that charter schools are providing high quality options for millions of students in node of alternatives to their local district, that they are doing so in a cost-effective way and that their performance of the charter sector as a whole is improving over time in stark contrast to the stagnation seen among public schools as a whole. it's often said that the evidence on charter schools is mixed. individual charter schools do vary widely in their effectiveness as mr. clark's testimony powerfully indicate and the most comprehensive study

suggests little different on average in how much students learn in charter and nearby schools yet dismissing the charter track record as mixed ignores clear evidence of benefits for students from low-income family, students of color and students living in urban area, all groups for whom educational opportunities are too often limited. studies from my home state of massachusetts illustrate this pattern of result. in our urban centers, each year of attendance at an oversubscribed charter middle school increased a standa15% ind of mediation in english and math. this is large enough to close the black-white achievement gap in three years n.contrast, attending a charter school in a suburban or rural area lowers student achievement by a small amount despite the fact that these schools are popular enough to hold admissions lot rifles many of these non-urban charter schools have a distinctive

curricular emphasis that may explain their sustained popularity despite a lack of success in improving test scores. this strongly suggests that the availability of charter schools has improved the student equity in our students. the strong performance ever charter schools nationwide is very impressive given that in many states charters continue to receive less funding than their district peers, as much as 28% less according to a 2014 study this. funding gap implies that charter schools provide a far greater return on investment for spending on public education. there's also evidence that the performance of the charter sector is improving over time for multiple reasons. first, many charter schools are new, and students tend to be become more effective as they mature. second, a growing share of the charter sector requires a nonprofit of management organizations which tend to be more effective than stand-alone schools. most importantly, research from

multiple states confirms low-performing charter schools are more likely to close either due to a being laugh parental demand or as a result of authorizer decisions. this provides a mechanism for continuous improvement that's generally not present in the traditional public sector. it's worth emphasizing that the additional high quality options created by the charter secretary oral have not come at the expense of students who remain enrolled in traditional districks. rather, the bulk of the evidence suggests that the presence of charter schools has had a modest positive effect on students in nearby district schools, and there are a growing number of examples of charter schools partnering with districts to share best practices. it's, therefore, disappointing, that after a decade of climbing by 6% to 9 boston a year, growth in the number of charter schools nationally has fallen to 2% annually over the past three years. this is not due to a lack of demand. it's not due to a lack of need. one factor is surely the gap in the state and the local funding

charters receive and the difficulties many charter entrepreneurs face-ins securing adequate school facilities. this makes continued federal support for and investment in the charter sector all the more vital. thank you, and i look forward to your questions. >> again, i want to thank the witnesses for many here today and for sharing your testimony with us. i'll now recognized members with five minutes. mr. guthrie, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mad ham chairwoman. appreciate the opportunity to be here and appreciate you guys being here today. i'm from kentucky and just finished -- i do have 221 counties and finished my 20th town hall in the last several months hand because it of what's going on in the general assembly a lot of people and were interested in charter schools, and i know and my answer to them was basically that's decided in frankfurt, not necessarily in washington, so i know that we're looking at this the and how we can assist and help move

forward. a lot of it, kept kept passed a charter school law i think last year if i remember correctly and there's still some unknowns of the process. i kind of thought for my edification, hopefully anybody watching, mr. rich morngsd i know that you're with the association of authorizers, what happens as the state passes a charter school law? of course, every state is different, i guess. ours is public charter schools. kind of what's the process that i could help explain to some of my constituents when i'm home? what is the process? now it's been authorized, the governor signs it, and, boom what, takes place next? >> sure. >> if you know kentucky's situation, i know they are all different. >> i have some familiarity with kept kept but not complete familiarity. so just, as you said in kentucky, there are public charter schools, and just to be clear they are everywhere in the country, in every state. charters schools are public schools. in the processing of kentucky, it ended up with a law that limited charter schools to just

a few communities. i think it was louisville and lexington. >> lexington, i believe. yeah are the only two cities wherhaer schools are permitted in kentucky if i'm recalling correctly. in those two cities folks who want to start a charter school, it could be educators, community organizations have to put together a proposal. what's their idea and what's their educational plan and what grade levels do they want to serve and where is it going to be located. you have to answer a lot of questions and get approved by the ought royceauthorizers in k operate. those conversations with just beginning right now in kentucky. and if there is something that happens in terms of the establishment of the charter school in kentucky, i know it's not going to be this fall but maybe the year after or year after that. >> is that something from the federal level that we get in the way or we can improve or we can help the process, or is it completely something happened in

frankfurt, indianapolis, nashville? >> mostly driven by what's happening in frankfurt or louisville. there are folks in kentucky working on getting this up and going, and the pritchard committee is one group and others. the federal charter school program does -- is a competitive grant program that would allow folks in kentucky to apply for some funds to help get that going, so they would -- they can apply in the next cycle for some of the funds to help get this started. >> miss rees, i think you in your testimony -- i had to step to another, i had to vote in another committee and dr. west you mentioned at the very end about the facility situation. i know, you know, in kentucky law, so what's -- could you -- dr. rees, i'll ask you and if you want to talk, dr. west, can you explain the importance of provide charter schools assistance for facilities, and why don't they have access to buildings like traditional public schools do? guess that's up to each state. it depends on what's going on in the state so it's a hard

question to answer. >> sure. charter schools by and large don't h access to the same funding streams that are available to the traditional systems such as mupd bonnicipal and tax credits. the way to mitigate is having the state enact a law that would attach for people facilities funding. the average per pupil allocation doesn't include facilities finance. at the federal level there are programs helping, the federal enhancement program which is part of the charter school program is one of them. there's a discuss of infrastructure at the national and federal level. another place where we would certainly highlight the discrepancy between what the charters get and what the traditional systems get and ultimately this is a state and local issue and feel like it should be dealt with at the state level. in kentucky we enacted a law, very proud of it. currently ranked in the top ten. highest quality laws in the nation so we're very much looking forward to seeing that law implemented. currently districts in kentucky

can all authorize charter schools, but our experience has been that districts tend not to authorize a lot of charter schools so we're grateful two cities are now doing that. the first thing that needs to happen is the passage of the funding stream. if there's no funding you can't open a facility. >> that was a debate in the last general assembly. >> it's a key barrier for schools getting off the ground. there's many different ways to solve that challenge. one option is to provide charter schools to capital funding, and another is to require districts make space available to charter schools located within them. different states have taken different approaches to try to address this challenge. one of the nice things about the changes in the every student succeeds act to the charter schools program is that it asks state so if kentucky wanted to apply those funds it would have to say how it is addressing facilities access to charter schools. it would not dictate how exactly

kentucky needs to do that. >> my time section period, and i yield back. thank you. >> mr. courtney, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. thank you to all the witnesses for many here today and in particular mr. charge, thank you for your military service which, again, we can never, you know, underscore that enough. during your testimony, mr. clark, again, you described your pretty concrete real life terms, you know, the impact of very obviously unstable situation in the detroit school systems. the flip side of the rapid expansion of charters in detroit was also, you know, coincided with closing of a lot of the traditional public schools in a lot of neighborhoods in detroit. can you just sort of kind of describe to us what your thoughts are and your experience in terms of what's been the impact in terms of other kids and families in your neighborhoods. >> okay. so, thank you. in my neighborhood brightmore,

we call it an education desert, okay. over the past i would say ten years the majority of our schools have either closed down or been taken over by charters. whatever reason the building is left there. now for our neighborhood, for our part of town. that's a serious safety issue and and abandoned building is a haven for crime and blight. children -- when a child wakes up in the morning and he toss not have a place to go like school, that's traumatic, and when you have parents that cannot get them to a school for

lack of transportation and resources, that adds to the problem. as schools pop up and go away there's only one victim, and that's the people in that neighborhood. when the school shuts down, they don't repurpose the building. they just pack up their things and they just leave it. then you have kids that run through. people go in there and they steal the piping. they deface the outside, and it just brings down the entire neighborhood. >> again, thank you for, you know, pretty vividly, you know, painting that picture for us. secretary devos' budget for 2019 actually proposes increasing funding for charters by roughly about 80%. it's almost a doubling of the number that was funded in 2018. i mean, what's your thought

about whether congress should, you know, embrace that large an increase? again, given the fact that there is a mixed story here in terms of charter effectiveness. >> my experience with charter schools as a whole, as i said in my testimony, i'm not very hopeful. giving more money to build more charter schools to me in my personal opinion is not going to help my situation in detroit. a lot of these charter schools are not in the neighborhoods where they are needed, and if they are, they are no better than the public school. broken promises, they hurt. not just a student but it hurts the parents as well. it is very discouraging to know that you send your kid to a

place where they are not getting the best quality education possible. it's very discouraging when an administration, school administration says i'm going to give your child a, b, c, d, e, f and g, and i don't get it. not only do i not get it, who is going to hold them accountable for not giving me what they promised? >> right. >> thank you. dr. west, the ranking member cited some information from gao about the fact that schools are actually sort of resegregating or the segregation is intensifying. in your opinion as an expert in education, does that matter? >> i do believe it matters, both because we know racial isolation can have an impact on student outcomes and i think we all want to live in a society where schools are to the extent

possible representative of the communities that they serve. it is the case that charter -- >> thank you, ge i've got six seconds level. i want to ask the chair. i want to have submitted to the record a report from brookings institute, how charter schools are promoting segregation. and i yield back. >> thank you, mr. courtney. mr. banks, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. my home state of indiana is a great example of the ability of charter schools to create opportunity and lift academic achievement. as mrs. rees is well aware, the national associate of public charter schools has ranked indiana's charter school law as the best in the country for three years in a row. as mr. richmond is well affair, the national associate of charter school authorizers has consistently ranked indiana's charter school policies as among the best in the nation. this is clear from the data. the 2013 national credo study found the students in indiana

charter schools gained 36 days of learning and reading per year and 14 days of learning in math, both above the national average. i was proud to be involved in the effort to expand access to charter schools during my time as a state senator by sponsoring the bill that created the indiana charter school board and allowed private universities to authorize new heart schools. i believe the success of indiana charter schools can be attributed to the ability of multiple authorizers to start charter schools that maintain the autonomy to innovate. at the same time, these schools are being held to the highest academic standards and unlike traditional public schools fails the threat of closure if they do not meet these standards, so mrs. rees and mr. richmond, would you both agree that indiana's model of freedom, accountability and multiple sources of authorization is a good mold for other states? mrs. rees? >> absolutely.

we ranked indiana on the report for that very reason. what's also real interesting about indiana is the work that's happening in indianapolis which started when mayor bart pearson, a democrat, was the mayor and has continued over time. there was a sense of collaboration between the district and the charter school system. the community views charter schools as part of the fabric of public education, and we firmly believe that that model is one that should be replicated in more cities, certainly places like d.c. and san antonio and denver have emulated that, and we hope that other school district officials come to indianapolis and emulate those best practices. >> anything to add, mr. richmond? >> two things. one just to echo a reference you made on the role of the mayor of indianapolis. it has been critical in having

that kind of collaboration and communication across all schools, and we sometimes see that missing, to be a often see it missing in other cities, so this works really well when you have someone like a mayor providing that kind of leadership across all schools. we do rank indiana's charter school law very high in our system. one of the reasons for that is the accountability that they have for the authorizing bodies. you mentioned that there are multiple authorizers in indiana. as part of that, the indiana authorizer can actually lose its power to continue authorizing schools if it approves and lets bad schools stay open. we believe in accountability for all of our actions and that's one of the aspects of indiana's law that makes it successful. everyone is accountable for good outcomes for kids. >> with that, mr. richmond, how important is it for the federal government to maintain the flexibility of federal charters and to allow multiple types of

authorizers to be able to acthose funds? >> we think one of the strengths of the charter school movement is that flexibility, that it's not standardized across the whole country. you see different states trying different things. some are working better than others so we think it's important for the federal role in charter schools to continue to support that flexibility while something some incentives like it does have in the federal charter school program. there are incentives for states to tackle issues around quality. incentives are in there and each state gets to build its own solutions, and we think that's the right way to go. >> dr. west, anything to add on that flexibility? >> no, i just very much agree with mr. richmondhat the best approach is likely to vary from state to state, and the charter schools program encourages attention to these issues but doesn't dictate exactly how they need to be addressed, and i think that that's an appropriate

role. >> thanks to each of you. i yield back. >> thank you, mr. banks. mi >> thank you, chairwoman fox and thank you to the witnesses. as policy-makers here i see our obligation is as, one, make sure that all children have access to a high quality education that includes great schools, great teachers, great administrators. that includes all students, particularly traditionally underserved students, students with disabilities, english language learners, they should have that access. i see this as a moral issue but also as a civil rights obligation. i worked on this issue when i was a state legislator as well as a member of congress, and i have to say that i'm in general skeptical about charter schools because they are not addressing the underlying issue of equity of opportunity for all. mr. clark, thank you for your testimony and raising some of

those important concerns about the lack of stability of many charter schools, especially in michigan. i wish we were having a robust discussion about how great mac net schools have been in the districts that have them where we have a level playing field, where we have an elected school board. where the schools are not opening and closing based on the management and creating that instability, but we're here today, and so i want to focus on -- and talk about online charter schos, many of which are for profit. although certainly online classes can expand educational opportunities for students, especially in rural areas, online schools typically require a learning coach, for example, often apparent, making families who don't have at least one stay-at-home parent out of the loop. they have to monitor students during the day, and, in fact, in my home state of oregon, less than half of the students who attend online charter schools graduated on time, and that's 30

points behind the state average. in 2015, the center for research on education outcomes at stanford led a report examining the performance of charter schools in 17 state, including organize and found that online charter schools have an overwhelmingly negative effect on student achievement. on average they lost 180 days of learning in math and 72 days of learning in reading. one researcher concluded leasing is 80 days of learning in math, is quote, literally as if the kid did not go to school for an entire year. indiana, we we were just talking they had indiana virtual school that graduated a lower percentage of schools than almost every other high school in the state. i want to ask you, mr. clark, as a taxpayer and parent what do you think about the online charter schools, and what would you want to know if you were considering enrolling your student in a -- your child in an online charter school? >> the first thing i would be concerned with is there a system

set up to hold them accountable for the services that they say they are going to provide for my children? i'm not -- i want to say this. i'm not here to bash charter schools, but i'm here to push the fact that accountability is the key. >> absolutely. and i want to get another couple questions in. accountability is really important, something i worked on in the state level. miss reerks, i'm going to defero you you. you said in your testimony millions of american families are settling for schools that are less than what they want for their children and far too many of these students are stuck in schools so dreadful that members of this committee would not accept them as adequate for their own children or grandchildren, and you're suggesting in that testimony that if only there were a charter school members of congress or other involved parents would take their children and put them in a nearby charter school.

as policy-makers, we have to ask the question what about those schools? how can we address the needs of all of those students who are stuck in what you are calling our schools so dreadful? our responsibility isn't just to the students whose involved parents put them in a charter school. we have to consider all of those students, and it's the same question i asked secretary devos. why aren't we asking why don't those schools have better teachers? do they need bert straightors? do they need more classes? do they have lead in the water? it's not just our responsibility to the kids who go out to another school, and your testimony, miss reerksz you applauded the work of charter schools but seemed to ignore some of the problems of the for-profit and online. you mattered about ohio's electronic classroom of tomorrow. they abruptly closed last winter. the school was inflating student outcomes without any evidence that they were learning. in audit they received $19 million more from the state than

they should have received and $590 million in federal, state and local funds and abruptly closed and left those students with nowhere to go. shouldn't there be stronger oversight to make sure these schools are actually serving students rather than focusing on -- on churning profits, and why are you encouraging removing caps and having more access to funding when so many cases like this exist? madam chair, can i introduce into the record how long will we let them fail? indiana committee begins review of virtual charter school rules. >> without exception. the chamember's time has expire >> the very question. first of all, to your first point -- >> my time has expired. >> i'll ask you to submit your answers in writing. thank you. >> sorry. mr. allen, you're recognized for five minutes. >> mrs. rees, would you answer that question because i would like to know the answer. >> to your first point,

congresswoman, for us it's not an either/or. we believe we should make investments in hour public schools and make sure that they are serving the needs of the students who are in those schools, but at the same time we also believe that families should have options if the school is notorking for them. they should be able to send their children to other schools. there have been some efforts in states like ten sigh where the charter model has been introduced in those schools that have been chronically failing. our sector is very much ready, willing and able to go in those schools where parents are not making a choice to see if the charter model is in fact that no excuses model, is in fact in raising student achievement so for us it's not an either/or. it's both. we have to do both in tandem. as far as online charter schools are confirmed, we produce the report and two years ago we chronicled the chronic underachievement of online charter schools and called for regulations at the state level to address these issues.

you don't want to completely get rid of them because for some students these are the only choices available to them, but at the same time they are very different from our brick and mortar schools and their achievement certainly hasn't kept par with where we want to be as a community. >> thank you. again, what we're talking about here is how do we get, you know, young people the opportunity to be what god created them to be, and, of course, two things that i would like to point out. one is that everything that i have learned about education is if you're not reading at the third grade level by the time you finish the third grade, you're probably not going to graduate from high school, and if you don't graduate from high school, it's not -- you know, your future does not look very promising as far aseeking a job or being independent. the second thing is that- and

i shouldn't globalize this, but the teachers that i talked to tell me the biggest problem is not the students. it's the parents. and so when i see schools that really do well, there is tremendous parental involvement in every level of that school. and moy children attended private school. tremendous parental involvement and inner city public school, tremendous parental involvement the idea with a charter school that is a group, i guess, of parents who said, hey, we want together, and we want something better for our children. so, miss rees, you -- you have mentioned some examples of public and charter schools working together. i've heard some examples like that as well.

how do we get that young person through that third grade, reading at a third grade level? >> well, god reading programs mick a difference, and a lot of our charter schools are thriving because they are putting programs that have been researched and tested starting at an early age, making sure that they are making sure that the students are actually proficient in reading before they move on to the next grade, so at the end of the day our community is about raising student achievement. dr. west highlighted some of the studies out there, but i want to just repeat some of things he mentioned. awording to st awordi awordi awording to -- according to stanford's credo an african-american charter school student gains an additional 59 days of learning in math and 44 additional days of learning in reading, so to us that tells us that there's something in the water in the charter school movement, especially for

low-income students and minority students that works, and we should try to replicate those models. >> all right. dr. west, as far as parental involvement, lou how do we chan that? >> well, we know that parental involvement is an important contributor to a successful school, and many charter schools do seek to ten courage greater levels of parental involvement. many of them have the -- they often call them parent contracts that they sort of lay out the expectations for involvement. these are not legally enforcible in any way, but they set clear expectations for the ways parents will be involved, but i would actually say that many of the most successful charter schools in the movement, i'm sure they welcome parental involvement, but they actually don't build models that require it in order for students to be successful. they know that many of the students we serve face extreme disadvantage, and they want to insure that they are able to

serve students well regardless of what parents are able to contribute >> thank you very much, and i yield back. >> thank you, mr. allen. dr. adams, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair, and thank you ranking member for convening this hearing and to the witnesses, thank you, and thank you, mr. clark, for your service. i want to introduce three interns, kristen evans, law student and erica jordan from wake forest and hbcu intern tony watlington from north carolina at&t. i want to remark on how important today's conversation is for the future of our nation so i'm happy that we have so many young people here today. the state of north carolina just passioned a bill that would allow the local small towns in mek ly the county that i represent to create their own independent charter schools, towns of huntersville, matthews and cornelius in north carolina. they say their parents need

options when considering their children's education, and i don't disagree with that, but part of having options is having the ability to choose. my fear in this proposal is that as mecklinberg's charters begin, ore students will be -- for those students who can attend the charities, what are we do ensure that quality controls are in place, to guarantee that this choice isn't a false one? miss rees, this question is for you, and before you answer your organization is committed to advancing the mission of charter schools and another question should be should low-performing heart schools be shut down. >> there's a lot of questions in there. in terms of the specific question in terms of the

charlotte-mecklinberg issue, i'm not sure with the schools that will be created. as an organization we firmly believe schools should be inclusive steppings and the vast majority of our be left behind and i think in the case of north carolina, i wish we would keep an eye on how this has been moving forward and authorizing these schools. they can put parameters in place to make sure the schools are in fact meeting the diverse needs of the community. to your second question. i believe that if a school is not performing well, it should be closed. last year, we had roughly 200 public charter schools closed over the past five year, over 1,000 have closed. in my opinion, the key difference between a chart e and traditional school is that if it's not performing well, it's either not attracting enough families or if the authorizer

isn't happy, that school should be closed. >> i want to put in the record a report in the public interest which details some of the negative impacts of the rapid charter expansion in california. the fact that these districts are facing a shortfall over 140 million. >> without objection. >> thank you. so despite the many failures cited today, there are some schools that get it right. kip in charlotte is an example of a school in my district that prioritizes the importance of growing critical resources to support low income children of color through their education, but in general, charter schools show greater segregation. by race, ethnicity and income. so miss reece, in your quest to expand b publpublic which are c you -- on race and income. >> absolutely not. we believe charter schools and most of the leaders in the movement are in this business to serve the needs of students and

allot of them are created now schools that are diverse by design. having said that, if our intent is to have more diversity in the charter school space, there are some policies that need to be put in place. this committee when it reauthorized the secondary education act alolowed for program funding to do weighted lotteries to add more diversity. >> thank you. let me moou on to another question. just have a few seconds left. mr. clark, thank you for sharing the information about the detroit system. these, this, these charter schools that they have their own boards where they regulated by the detroit system or can you speak to that just a moment? >>y act ded independently. they had their own board. so it wasn't like the people elected the board. they were appointeded. okay. and the management company for the charter school my daughter

went to that i spoke of in my testimony, there are 350 miles away. so if we did have a concern, it's hard to get 100 parents 350 miles away to address an issue. and another thing real quick, we felt locked out. they would have board meetings at 11:00 in the morning where parents are at work and teachers are at work as well. so it wasn't like they wanted us at the meeting. >> thank you very much. madam chair, i'm going yield back i hope we're not in a position where we are really causing our public schools to go out of business. 90% of our kids are going to be educated there. thank you. i yield back. >> you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. thank you for scheduling this discussion on a very important

topic. i think charter schools are very important component of our k-12 system. throughout the country. ied in pennsylvania state legislature, education chair for some of that time. and had the opportunity to speak to many times, to parents who participate in a lottery for their students. they really saw quality their child received was really a lifeline for their future and many times were participating in lotteries thousands of students participating when there were only a few slots available. i saw the joy that parents experienced when selected. so i think you know, in one way that the charters are really important is just providing that

opportunity for students who would not have that opportunity. otherwise for a great education. charter schools are public schools and they can often be a way to innovate sort of a laboratory that other schools can then learn from. and third, maybe in the minority in this or differ from others, i think charter schools are very important to improve the effectiveness of the entire landscape of schools. traditional public schools included. i come from a business background. i think providing parents choice and competition improves the quality of all the schools. we have to realize when you look at the landscape, about two million students in pennsylvania, no matter how many private schools, charter schools

that we had, still a large majority of stupts attended a traditional public school. 86% in pennsylvania's case. so anything that we do with charter schools has to also we have to acknowledge that it should improve the quality of the entire education system. i think charter schools could be effective in doing that. by showing that it can be done. we should not accept poor schools whether they be charter schools or be a traditional public school. there should be accountability across the board. i've ian great charter schools. poor charter schools. i've seen great, traditional public schools and poor public schools. as policymakers, we should expect that every student will have the opportunity for quality education. one of the things i've seen mr. richmond have come to question here eventually is particularly in pennsylvania, it's been my experience, charter schools are

authorized by the school district and i've been surprised there's not more where school districts see a positive partnership with a charter school as very beneficial for the students of their district. i've come to the conclusion that there are better ways to authorize public schools than sending school district. what are the most effective ways to authorize charter schools. >> thank you. it's an important question. it's one we've touched on in some of our discussion already. who's approving these schools. it's a critical question. ties to the publicness of charter schools. be a public school, charter school, is account in some fashion to the public. 90% of the institutions that authorize charter schools in the country, 90% of them, are school districts. that's not something you hear often.

usually told just the opposite. these are all schools -- >> is that a best way? >> these are imposed against our will. 90% of authorizers are are school districts in this country. doesn't automatically mean they're great or bad. they are some school districts doing this work really well. some doing it pretty poorly. there are some entities that are not school districts that are authorizing charter schools that are doing it well or poorly. we've identified three qualities that we think are important for any institution that's authorizing charter schools. number one, there has to be a commitment. that create good schools for kids. something you just referenced. that leadership has to be there. that vision. it has to be a commitment that this is important work. for the institution to pay attention to. can't be stuffed back in the corner somewhere. and the third thing is to use good, professional judgment. not a compliance checklist. people have to be using good judgment. when we see those three quali

qualities in existence, whether it's in a school district or a state ed department of some other body, those three things are there, we tend to get good charterch for kids. >> thank you. >> gentleman yields back. mr. polish, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, chairwoman and ranking member for holding this hear. . charter schools have been an important schools of innovation. i'm a strong supporter of all public schools. in our state, we have charter schools innovation schools and district run schools. i'm also honor to be a member of the founding education caucus here. i've gotten to know the operation alley before coming to congressment i started two public charter school nworks an was superinden tent in colorado and new mexico. and public charter schools can be helpful component of our

public education system. obviously accountability and equity are critical. with the extra fle by, we need to make sure they're fully held accountable. when we wrote the every student succeeds act in 2015, updating the program to improve account bability was aty of mine and the program now includes additional transparency and accountability requirements for community engagement and also a discussion around the authorizers. the quality in writing of the contract and enforcing the contract to ensure equity is absolutely critical. finally, i want to point out that not all school choice is equal. public charter schools and other magnet schools an others can be a meaningful option under the right conditions and of course they have to comply with federal

law. one of my concerns has been access to transportation to high quality options for parents. i think it's important to make sure that we talk about making our choices in public education meaningful by including a discussion discussion about how pashts who might not have the luxury of taking their kid to school in car are able to get their kid there. my first question for miss reece. they bring up daca because they have student, family, teachers who are daca eligible. dreamers living every f day with the uncertainty that's being created by the trump administration ch one example of colorado, brandon, adah kai student at a kip school in colorado said he felt lucky to attend the public charter school he did and is a big fan of his teachers, but said quote, fixing daca is is important for students because there's few scholarships available to daca

students. additionally, i always fear that i can be deported at any time and fear that i will not be able to complete my degree, end quote. he's a stubt student at colorado state university today. but other students don't have to go fear every day or they rely on seemingly inefficient congress for addressing their situation. have you spoken to students who are worried about immigration reform and what do you think daca would do for the charter school community? >> thank you for your leadership and we'll miss you in this house o after the november elections. quickly onta kai, we don't work on organizational ibs, but we have quite a few schools serve daca students and perhaps -- we

will fight on their behalf to make sure a viable situation to this issue. liev congress needs to deal with this issue next. >> so if congress fails to act and if daca expires, there will be public charter schools that use good teachers today? >> yes. we haven't done a survey of how many charter schools are under daca, but a fair number of schools in texas, california, denver, are -- the students have grown with the schools so the stories are quite heart wrenching. >> early college public schools. we have several in colorado. students can take dual enrollment and earn an

associates keg. i want ed to ask about that and what charter schools are doing to help spread innovation across public schools. one of their original gro aal g. that was one of the original tenants was giving teachers more autonomy. when it comes to innovation, you need two people to partner with one another to share that innovation. i worry at times even though we're ready, willing and able to share, there's no real mechanism to transfer that to the larger district system. denl ver is denerer is an exception. i believe as i said it would be very instrumental for more school district leaders to visit the denvers of the world. some of the key innovations are expanding the school day and school year.

one of the reasons the schools do so well is for that reason. there are a variety of immunizations. you've been to one school, you've just been to the one school so there's room to do a lot more and i think it's imp imperative on our movement to really step it up and do a lot more. >> thank you, mr. garrett. you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madame chair. in town literally bursting at the seems with hyperbole, i want to be really clear that what i'm about to say is my heartfelt feeling that in my 16 months, i could not hold him in higher regard as human being. as fine a man as i know here. with that said, i want to speak

to the repeated suggestion that charter schools lead to segregation by way of working towards the question. mrs. reece's goal was quote high quality public education. i look at a legal analysis and the heartbreaking tragedy of plessy versus ferguson that segregation was somehow okay. we share a passion for a 16-year-old girl in virginia named barbara johns who led a student walkout in the brown versus board of education where in it was a start towards dismantling the redick louse legal lie. that was finalized in 1964 with the passage of the civil rights act and other legislation. as it relates to the partisan bash bars here, 39% oppose while 20% of republicans in the senate and 27% of it was a filibuster

by one robert byrd who a presidential candidate kauld her mentor and gave a kiss on the cheek with knowledge he had been member of the ku klux klan. so segregation is illegal, has been since 1964 and if you'd like to give partisan credit, you can. so to use the term which stirs emotion, se regags, i think the h hyperbolicic because it's not the law of the land so if there's increased segregation, it is de facto. number two, compactness cuts down cost which is a driving factor in education by reduction of transportation and service.

again with the greatest respect for the individual, i mean that sincerely. there's been a fight over charter schools that can continue over my nearing departure. that manifests in state legislatures. when i was in the virginia state house, there was a fight to allow students, i believe it was six failing school districts in the state, the ability to attend school in adjacent school districts. which was opposed along party lines and vetoed by a governor for reasons like that stated by my now colleague in congress. who said i don't like the idea there's a lottery. i'm reminds of the circumstance that i read in the paper with

great jub lance and joy of darren francoy in new orleans, louisiana where he attended a charter school and was in the pap e for having received entry into 83 colleges. he broke any number of expectations among him to become a high achiever in power of virtue of education. there's a debate about nature versus nurture. i believe in nurture. that if you take a young person regardless of their background, the color of their skin, of who they love, of how they worship, you place them in the right circumstances, they'll be able to succeed. that's america. now it manifests involved in the fact that sec regags --

that there are other, miss reece, would you concur? >> thank you very much, madam chair. >> you're recognized for five minutes. >> i appreciate the discussion today. i represent san diego ch we have some great charter schools. they function as test siting.

in that being part of their mission, their basic mission like with all actually school, public schools parly is to make sure that every young person who resides in in that school has an equal chance to be successful. and ipg that's something we all want. we know that we can't guarantee outcomes, but we want to make sure they have an equal opportunity to be successful. one of the concerns the other concerns is what we can do to ensure better results. but what do you think? we could be doing better as we look to future legislation --

>> my answer to the question b about accountable pi is it needs to come at the lowest level. we have a saying back in detroit. nothing about us without us. which means if there's a problem, those that are directly affected by the problem need to be at the table to address the problem. not a governing body 350 miles away. nothing against the people in lansing or you guys in d.c. that's our children being -- battling with the system. so a local governing body and parents and residents whose

children are in this fight needs to be at the table to hold the educators, authorizers, account able to what they said they were going to do. >> the reason that charter schools have grown up. because people needed tha that. i think what i'm looking for and again, it's an open question about what is our role here. how is it that the tone might be missing in to send that to schools. anyone who else wants to jump in. >> i'll offer a few thoughts. thank you for your question. we want to touch on the fact that we are really identifying some important issues. restate my appreciation that the conversation. in terms of segregation,

important around parents having information they need to make good decisions for their kids. about the ability to even send your, transportation availability. these are critical parts of success. federal charter school program does provide some funds. to allow communities. we're seeing places like indiana, rhode island and others.

mr. clark, if you wanted to respond as well, that i, i understand what you're saying. i think it's critically important and especially where we see children that have been traumatized by the need to move around even in schools and what that does to parents and to children. >> i can agree that there has been some movement as far as more local accountability. but not as much as i would like to see. far too much wrong has been done to these kids around parent this

is this fight for equitable education. we cannot stop. we wus must continue to stop. >> mr. wahlberg. you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madame chairman and to the witnesses for being here. mr. clark, i did several years ago have an opportunity to visit probably your charter school. that you're talk iing about. and the great concerns. we saw problems there. had an opportunity to visit some, another higher performing charter school in detroit, also. that was offering an alternative. very difficult area. but offering with some good success and i think leadership matters. and we're hopeful that the governor, community activists who have gotten more involved, in a city, more importantly, in an educational system that ought

to be a quality system in a city as major as detroit was. it was the silicon valley of the united states, really. years ago. and manufacturing and engine engineering and everything that went on. so it's tragic to see some of the things that have happened. i've also had the privilege of visiting a large number of charter schools around michigan including in my district most recently, had the opportunity to vit island city academy, a wonderful school located in michigan. currently, the school is ranked in the 81st percentile in michigan's ranking. not 100th, but it's up there and working with a diverse student bo body dr. west, what effect does the heightened student

achievement demonstrated by many charter schools have on the local community? >> thank you for the question. so we what effect is not something that we've been able to study in great details so far. because the charter movement was so knew. we know a lot about how charter schools affect student's achievement and their likelihood of completing high school for example. we're going learn how a charter school in general affects college long-term. and the evidence there encouraging, i would say. i don't know that we have much in the way of rigorous evidence on that point as of yet.

everything that we would know from what we know about education writ large would suggest that could be a transformtive impact for a community. i would think so. the charter school movement has been around for a while. we know with a public school, a great public school, people will make life decision choices to make sure they're there in that school district. certain cases in charters, you can't rely on the parental involvement because they're not there. so you have to do the best with what you have. but what are some of the other

factors when you look at success for a charter school that you find are key. >> i think it really comes down to teachers more than anything else. all of education research suggests that the quality of the teachers, the most important school based influence on academic success and what's unique about charters is that they have much more flexibility in how they make decisions about who teach there is and who does not. i actually -- innovations in the charter model, less than anything, more so than what might transfer to a traditional district. the able they leilitlility thato assemble a team of like minded leaders into the school's philosophy. >> what would encourage a great teacher to choose a charter

school over a traditional public school? >> i would think it would be the ability to teach with others who are bought into the same common educational philosophy. we know that leadership quality is a key influence on whether teachers want to stay in a given school. so i think it would be the opportunity to work with a strong leader, but in terms of what's most distinltive about a charter, it's about the leader and group of teachers to establish a common educational vision and sort of work towards that together. >> thank you, mike. my time has expired. i yield back. >> thank you, mr. wahlberg. mr. scott, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. when you're talk iing about charter schools, we talk about students being trapped in low performing schools.

our responsibility ought to be to improve those low performing schools. i think it's noteworthy that you don't have a clamber for charter schools in areas where the schools are well funded. fact studies have shown charter are worse than average. more often, we've found rigorous oversight makes a difference. in response to my distinguished colleague from virginia, i look forward to working with him to fulfill the vision to walk b out and protest opportunities without sounding with the fall to blame. we can address this -- particular ly in charter school.

mr. clark, i want to thank you for your service and thank you for being with us this morning. we found the overwhelming majority of charter schools in detroit are operating by for profit companies. in your view, is the cost maximized to students and parents. >> can you repeat that, sir? >> are the schools looking out for profits or more interested, they're looking out for profits detrimental to the students? >> i believe in my experience that profits are the number one motivation. and i say that because my daughter's all three of them, have come home without textbooks that they need so there are a

lot of resources that they should receive at their charter schools, that they don't. the administration at the school, it was never a conversation about they made never me feel like my children's education was priority. it was always another way to have cutting a corner. as with the classes. they promised two hours of math and reading. math and english. they knock it down to 45 minutes. they fire the right teachers. excuse me. they fire the wrong teachers. like my daughter. one day the ceo of the school saw my daughter in hallway. she said what's wrong. she say my heart is broken. she said why. because you just fired my favorite teacher.

there's no reason to fire your best teachers. there's no reason. my ughter motivation dropped from that point on. and she felt that she was not, at that point, she felt that that school did not make her a priority. the things that you promise kids, you should keep your word. the college seminar class, my daughters look forward to that. when you cut that, for whatever reason you come up with in your head, that's wrong. that's detrimental to all of these kids. they expect to go to school and learn and then be prepared for college. which is the next phase. >> thank you. want to try to get in another question if i can. thank you for that answer.

this can be really a simple yes or not. i want to ask the panelists. washington state subjects all public schools to its open record law and washington, d.c. public charter schools are not subject to open records laws. should any public charter school be subject to the same open records law as a noncharter school? miss reece. >> ask a question by open records laws, do you mean public forums to come to the school board meeting or -- >> freedom of information. freedom of information laws. mr. richmond. >> di i need to think about the question to see how current state statutes treat this particular question. >> some do and some don't. question is whether all public schools receiving public moneys should be subject to open records laws like freedom of

information. isn't anybody going to answer? >> i'd feel that everybody should be held to the stam standard. if you believe school gets public collars and charter schools get public dollar, it should be a level playing field. >> so tranz parnsy in the governance of charter school ss very important. the reason i hesitate is because it's not on aish i've looked a at closely for example, open meeting laws have in some cases made it impossible for charter school boards not comprised in a single geographic area to comply with. so i just would not want to offer an absolute yes without doing more study. >> mr. richmond. >> yes, with the recognition that even within that statement, within stits, there are considerable debates going on now about how the law kuz apply. >> miss reece, did you want to answer? >> again, i think we node take a

close look tat consequences of these additional rules and regulations on charter schools, but by and large, my reaction is yes, they should be able to make this information available. our motto law encourages states to have open meeting laws in place for charter school boards to conduct their meetings in public for instance. >> mr. scott, your time has expired. >> thank you. >> you're recognized for five minutes. >> sure. maybe dr. west a question. maybe someone else wants to weigh in as well. it seems to me when i tour schools or here anecdotes about good and bad schools, sometimes the difference is the ability to which you get the most off your employees and if you have an employee who's not cutting it, you get him go. and it seems to me when i deal with districts that aren't that

good, you have kind of a superintent dent who's a glad hander. never moves out the deadweight. in general, not in general, but specific dr. west, which type of schools find it easier to move on the deadweight. mr. clark talked about for whatever reason. he's got his reason. he knew a charter school, wanted to get rid of their best teachers. i never heard of that. the real problem is when you have really underperforming people, maybe don't care, burned out, which type of school gets rid ta teacher quicker seems to care more about the students or just go with the flow? >> we know one of the most important ways in which a school leader matters for a school success is how they manage their

teacrs and in particular, how they make decision about who stays and who goes. and i would say it's clear that in most states, charter schools have a great deal more flex bability in makes those decisions. >> okay, so you're saying there's an underperforming teacher. the generally more caring or maybe it's just the rules they work under. as far as removing. i'll give you an anecdote. you can maybe mr. richmond, mr. clark to say. back home, i talk today a guy who sent his children to public school. he had two kids. the oldest got to second grade and all the parents were worried that he'd get this bad teacher who everybody knew was bad. fortunately, his first kid dodge

ed a bullet and wasn't wasting second grade. nine years later, his second child got there and to his shock and dismay, the same teacher was still there and the parents were still hoping their kids didn't get the bad teacher. whether it was because the administration in the public school didn't care about the kids that much or whether it was just plain too tough given the contract. only go through second grade once. get a bad teacher, you miss second grade. which type of arrangement would be more likely to put the kids first and remove that bad teacher and which type would be more likely to have the bad teacher there for ten years screwing up ten years worth of second grader's education. i can see you want to say something. >> we have great freedoms to attract the best and brightest to offer them the support that they need to thrive in the

classroom. some of our most effective organizations place a premium on that. so my answer would be keeping these high quality teachers. a high performing network in arizona, they place a premium on attracting teachers with subject matter mastery, often college professors into the classroom to teach stupts. zpl can i jump in quickly on that point? >> i want dwrou answer the question. to elaborate. in a charter school, the fact the parents have the ability to seek out an alternative if you're assigned the bad teacher, that puts pressure on the

leaders to deal with that performance. >> in order if there was a charter school, my friend in that district, which tr there wasn't, my friend would have had the option if they didn't move along the under -- >> or vice versa. the chart school would have a great deal of flex bable toy address the problem. if we look at chatter school, they are much more sats fied with the quality of their chil's school and the quality of teaching. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. appreciate this hearing and i must admit this conversation is vexing to me. so much of education subjective. i'm sure this researches our own

prejudices. all of us have strong feelings about the education our kids get. just part of us genetically. this sort of presented to us, i'm thinking about thbecause i' from california and in our primary lech, there were millions of dollars spent from nis in races from the governor's race down to school board race and everything in between. basically choosing sides. when i first started in the legislature, i believe charters have some worth, but i'm concerned about a lot of the questions that mr. scott brought up about who's left behind and while mindful about how charter schools began after brown versus the board of education and i'm a believer in what george said, a harvard professor. those who repeat history are condemned to repeat i. how it.

how do we reconcile this? really focus objectively, open mindedly, we need to have available to every young person this this country, a robust public education system. so how do we really get evaluate that, the most objective process, looking at things that charters that work and how do we bring them to scale and accountability, i'd love to hear your comments and mr. clark. we had the secretaries here this week and questions i asked baseded on editorial opinion, detroit newspaper about how it didn't work and the lack of accountability in detroit. dr. west, you're a researcher. you have strong pb opinions. i assume one of my favorite quote, doubt grows with knowledge. i'm sure you had knowledge where you guess your own research. >> thank you for a rich

question. as i think about first rs i share your sort of premise, which is that we need to have a system that provides access to high quality education for all students. the question is where do charters fit into that mix. that they many particular have a presence or role to play in prass where the existing arrangements have clearly fallen short of that goal and continue to do so for an extended period of time. in order to improve and make sort of additional nontraditional actors longer necessary. but i think there's been a theme in this conversation that some

extent, we have to choose pre between promoting options and i'd like to emphasize that i see them as more complimentary than con with one another. my question doubt is about what the end game is. how does it play out in the long run. a third of this district, it's an affluent part of the bay area gets their funding from parent's foundation. another wone in poor part of th district community middle school. the principal said we need more money for behavioral health for our teepers because they have to do so much for these kids. maybe tor. richmond and mr. clark, it strike me that what happened in detroit if i'm a proponent of charter schools because you don't have the are

rich accountability. or at least that's the criticism. maybe mr. richmond andccountabi. >> sure. want to just touch on the almost every issue brought up here tod today, discrimination, financial transparency, goes back to how are these schools being approved in the first place and how are they being overseen. almost every one. it goes back to those authorizing bodies. >> just let mr. clark finish. i've got ten seconds. sor ary about that. >> what was the question again? sorry. zpl my time's up. mostly around accountable any detroit. that's a deep er question. be happen foy talk to you afterwards.

>> i yield back. >> thank you, madame chair. thanks to the panel for being here today. item privileged to represent the 15th district of pennsylvania. one of the most rural in the country. while the new map will have a land mass roughly the size of new jersey, within that district, we have one charter school. and not because pennsylvania lacks charter schools. in fact, they have 183 charter schools that serve 133,753 students with nearly half serve nd the philadelphia school district. the criticism surrounding charter schools deals with a lack of diversity and inclusiveness. students with disableties. however, only 10% of charter school funding is distributed to rural communities. leaving another large demographic of students without the benefits of charter schools

have to offer. how do we get more charter schools in rural communities and how do we ensure that more of those charter schools are high performing? >> the a great question. only about 11% of charter schools are currently in rural communities. there are some great examples in tats like north carolina, kip has a great rural charter school. right up the state line in delaware. there's a great rural school calleded sus esexacademy. the first step is to have a conversation to get them familiar with the concept of chartering. for a long time, most of our concentration has been in inner city settings where the demand is high and there's a density of student population. unfortunately, we haven't been paying as much attention to rural communities and it's time change the conversation and

start to introduce the concept in more communities. in some instance, it would be easy if for leader to convert some schools do charter schools, so the way we would go about this is going to defer from community to community, but it's going start with introducing folks on the ground to those operating effective rural charter schools. in a lot of case, it's been a conversation first. followed by quite frankly, a a local business or community leader coming together to help that individual start a charter school. >> any thoughts on those? >> just one additional one. after saying that this has been a tough challenge to solve. in a charter community. in many states, when a charter school is approved by a school

district, it can only serve kids from that school district, so it's a small town. you're going to have a hard time economically. figuring out how do we get another, if you can broaden that geography to a larger area, serve surrounding counties. then you more likely to be able to get the numbers to work. >> 90% as you had mentioned, 90% of charter schools are authorized by public schools. with that comes a level of responsibility by the traditional public schools for the educational experience and the outcomes delivered in t schools. what access to information does the authorizing public schools have on recording the performance. do the schools have access to what they need to be able to assure that oversight and

accountability for what they have authorized? >> one of the positive features of the school district is that it can have that information. i did this work for ten years in chicago. we know who every one of the student were. their id numbers. they were part of our overall system. we have that inion. in some states, that's not true. i know in michigan, authorizers, because they're universities usually, they have trouble debt getting that information because of privacy laws getting in a technical area, but that information is important for the policymakers, for the authorizers and the public. the more we can make that information available and transparent to the public, the better we'll be.

>> i've heard complaints they're held accountable for the charter schools they've authorized. this is in pennsylvania. maybe different from elsewhere. th don't have the information the really, to -- >> i was in their shoes and they ought to be held accountable. for those charter schools. i've been there. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. thompson. i'm going ask my questions then we'll wind up. for miss reece, dr. west, questions that i hope went take up the whole time. how is the continued support of

charter schools positively impacked academic achievement of all students including those who may struggle due to language, disability or socioeconomic status or a combination. what additional gains can be accomplish today further support access to high quality charter school growth? we've heard some numbers on the other side. i'd like to hear your thoughts on that. >> quickly, the evidence based on the randomized field trials and studies done on charter schools is une equivalancely in favor -- 36 days of additional learning and math for african-american students.

for m for hispanic and 25 additional months. >> regarding that portion of your question on access, a lot that we can do and some is cities are really leading the way on this. it's not enough just to open a new school. you have to help parnents get information about it. good, reliable information about it. the enrollment and admissions processes have to be run fairly nondiskrim na torly.

that's what we're about and we can do that if we work together. >> thank you. dr. west. i mention ed we have evidence nw that there's a lot of variation now, we've heard that a lot today. there's some evidence that the sector is improving over time as a result of the closure of low performing schools. that means authorize accountability and it means continuing support of the replication and expansion program that was included.

but it's way too again speed this process of continuous improouchi improveme improvement. >> thank you. miss reece, have we seen potential for charter schools to transform career. >> we have 400 charter schools that label themselves as schools serving cto or some fields and that's roughly 200 student rs these charter schools. their schools of choice. so we depending on the needs of the community, in some, they have grown. in others, they vpat, but there are some best practices coming out. i was visiting the purdue university charter school and indianapolis recently. this is the university that decided to create a charter school in indianapolis in order

to attract more students from that city to its school rather than what it was getting. ly, which was students from all over the world. so it would be interesting to see how many more low income and minority students end up getting their degree from purdue university thanks to those charter school. >> well thank you very much. i will yield back my time and yield to the gentlewoman from california. for any closing comments she had like to make. >> thank you very much. i appreciate your last question because as we look to partner with communities and schools in cte as well, we want to be sure that many, maopportunities openp for young people and i think we're really prime to do that and to scale that in a way that makes a lot of sense and creates some careers that young people perhaps hadn't even envisioned in the past. i wanted to just comment because

i think we know that the key for all young people is a good future and all schools -- so we have 90% of students attend schools that are not charters or are not specially designed by communities but, in fact, are all still part of communities that need to function very well. so it's all about leadership. it's about resources and it's about how we make sure that communities are mobilized to do better by their kids. and that's something that, i think, is a general theme that we see throughout schools. we just have to be sure that more communities feel a need to do that. and we have to look to how kids are achieving it. and if we find that, as we know, that there are pockets of students who are not, then we have to make sure that that school system is equallyized for more of those children. innovation, of course, becomes

key. but school choices, we know, is not enough if the opportunities for those youngsters falls far short when we compare the investment of those communities for those schools. it's a big charge but we all need to be engaged and focused on that. thank you all very much for being here and thank the chairman. >> thank you, miss davis. again, i want to thank our witnesses for being here today and for sharing your valuable time with us. we've heard a lot about what makes the charter sector valuable part of the educational landscape for our students. we've also heard some very real concerns that can occur when there's lax oversight of the schools. much of this conversation, i think, boils down to accountability. congress, through the every student succeeds act, all public

schools, both traditional and charter, need to be held accountable for delivering a high quality education. we've spoken on this issue and now states and school districts are working to ensure the promise of essa is delivered to the students they serve. with chart er schools, we learnd today it's critical for authorizers to also do their part because, as mr. clark said, his kids get only one chance. and i agree with him. the accountability needs to be at the closest level to the students. i serve d on a local school boad for 12 years, and i believe very n that accountability. i also have been thinking about the question of why we don't have more schools -- more charter schools in rural areas and, obviously, it's a matter of scale sometimes, number of students. but i also think about the fact

that i represent a very rural area and i'm out in my district every weekend, talking to people, meeting with people. and i really have a feeling that because of rural areas, people are much more involved in their schools and that, perhaps, the schools are much more responsive to the parents and teachers and the people who are in the schools live in the community. the difference between the rural schools and the urban schools is that you don't quite have the same sense of community. that you have in the rural areas and i wonder -- that's not something i know, dr. wes, that anybody is doing any research on. but it would be fascinating to know whether something like that is occurring. but, you know, honestly, rural

people just step up to meet the needs in their communities in a way that is quite different from what happens in urban areas. there was a cake auction put on by a little church recently in one of my counties. and i went by. i went by last year accidentally. this year i planned to go. about 25 families there -- 25 people there. about 12 or 13 families. every one of them broug one or two cakes. they raised $4,000 at that cake auction. they bought their own cakes. there were like maybe five other people who showed up, who didn't bring a cake. and all that money went to the backpack program. they donated all that money to buy food for students on weekends. and i just -- you know,

constantly am amazed at the generosity and the involvement of rural people. in the needs of the community. and i just don't think you see that, as you do in urban areas. i think we've learned today that something that i didn't actually know, and i appreciate your bringing it up. 90% of the charter schools are authorized by the school districts. that is new information for me. obviously, i think that is something for us to pay attention to because a lot of people -- i think there are a lot of people who are opposed to charter schools, generally. and i think some way or another associate nefarious reasons for charter schools. but if the school districts themselves are authorizing the schools, it must tell us something about a need that is out there, that even the school districts see and want to see

happen. you talked about the issue of the quality of teachers and i appreciated very much the comments made about the charter schools having that ability to employ the best teachers and to let go the teachers that don't fit in. that they have a common philosophy. and in all cases, i think charter schools are very successful, there are strong leaders. and i think, dr. west, you said they establish a common vision. i wish that were possible again in all the public schools. but we've known, again, for a long, long time that what makes a great school, what makes it successful is a wonderful leader who hires excellent teachers and parental involvement. we've known that.

and that's what generally charter schools do and what often traditional public schools are not able to do. they eitheron't welcome the parental involvement or the parents think this is not my responsibility. i'm just turning itvero th hools to do. for whatever reason, you don't always get the same involvement. but when you do, you get great results. again, i'm a big believer in charter schools. i've told people this. you all haven't heard it. my colleagues have heard it. staff have heard it. i grew up in a poor area. got an excellent education and worked hard. it helped me get out of poverty and to have a successful life. what i would like to see is that for everybody. i think you can do it in the public -- traditional public schools but i think you can do it easier in the charter schools. and, as i said, we heard how

critical it is for parents to be involved and the schools to work with families so the students succeed. i do believe that charter schools do a better job of that. and i wish that more of that were done in the public schools. so i thank you for calling our attention to many issues that need to be resolved, but also reminding people that we have to hold accountable all along the chain those who are responsible for different things. so, thank you very much for being here. there being no further business, this hearing is adjourned.

tomorrow, president trump's pick, to lead the veterans affairs, robert wilkie's testimony begins 2:30 eastern here on c-span 3.

>> this past week, as part of our 50 capitals tour across alaska to our next stop in fairbanks. >> c-span program something especially valuable for alaskans. for the most of us it's the only way to get to see our delegation hard at work in washington. gci is proud to carry c-span for a number of reasons, especially for their emphasis on education. from lesson plans to handouts, the c-span classroom program offers so many resources to teachers and has a great deal of value to today's classrooms. >> thank you for being part of it. bringing your awesome bus to fair banks. the tour of that was incredible. i heard stories of driving up from the folks who brought the bus up here and the things they saw on the way coming to alaska was a nice trip, from what i heard. and i understand.

i've driven it a few times myself. it is an awesome trip. we're so glad your bus came here and using it as a tool to bring fairbanks nationwide. >> what i appreciate about c-span, it's 40 years old. it's much older me. that's a joke, by the way. you can laugh. what i appreciate by c-span it's not partisan. you watch the sparring that takes place. your delegations talk back and forth. it's extremely informative and very educational. one of the best things on the bus -- and i'm a tech geek. i hope they take me with them. you look at their video screens, they're interactive, people can learn, kids can learn about government. government doesn't have to be a bad word. >> join us july 21st and 22nd when we feature our visit to alaska. watch alaska weekend on c-span,

c-span.org or listen with the free c-span radio app. >> syndicated columnist mona charen. >> we send such confusing messages to young people. and so young women, you know, they are -- i don't envy them. this was a story i put in the book about a number of women athletes who have posed topless or semi topless for sports illustrated and one of them i quoted who said, you know, i want -- i'm proud of my body and i want to help young women who might have body image issues. and, you know, my feeling is that i crock. women should be dignified. they should remember that when you disrobe, it's very hard for

people to take you seriously. a man looking at a picture of a topless woman is not going to say, oh, look at that fantastic athlete. isn't it wonderful that she doesn't have any problems with body image? no. he's going to think about sex. and he's not going to think of her in a respectful way either. that's why i said, you know, angela merkel, the chancellor of germany, would not take off her blouse to prove she doesn't have body image issues. she wants to be respected. and if women want to be respected, they have to behave in a way that will elicit that. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's q & a. in 1969, c-span was created by america's cable companies and we continue tong