the way it was handled when they maded thousand dollars people have to pay $1000 in taxes. that is inequitable, if you ask me. >> voices from the state on c-span. >> published by the u.s. capital historical society, the book creating capitol hill: please, proprietors, and people, details how the district of columbia was chosen, how the land was purchased, and how the neighborhood and city developed in the early years of the republic. next, on american history tv, a book launch and a discussion with the three co-authors, the editor, and the mapmaker of the book. death and begins with a talk with dean melissa, portraying george washington, who was instrumental in founding the u.s. capitol. this is about an hour and 15 minutes.

>> we are going to start our program now, i want to thank everybody for coming tonight for this occasion that represents the culmination of many years of work on behalf of the authors and the u.s. capital historical society. i want to welcome our guest and recognize our authors, charles, william don, , and pamela, who you will all be hearing from. i want to thank everyone who has worked on this. our editor don cannon, particularly our guest tonight, from mount vernon, we we look forward to working with them in the future, including september 13th at mount vernon related to the release of the book. i want to thank all the members of the carter family who are here with us tonight.

and also, a special thanks to everyone who donated to the production of this book, especially frank and tricia. this is the culmination of many years of work on behalf of so many people. we are delighted to have this, which we truly believe will be one of the real books that will always be referred to in the future in any discussion of capitol hill and the impact that has had on this country. the first part of our program allows me to introduce our special visitor. i would like to say ladies and gentlemen, his excellency, the president of the united states, general george washington. [applause]

>> thank you for the introduction, what am i supposed to do with that? >> it is a little after your time. >> all the modern inconveniences. what a great honor. i apologize, i'm still wearing my boots. i had rid four hours from mount vernon to be here today. i found that i had failed to bring shoes. you're seeing me in my shoes and -- boots and i apologize for that. bad form to begin with an apology. but it's a great honor and i hope we will see each and everyone of you at mount vernon. we extend our warm and sincere virginia hospitality to each and every one of you. capital cities. there has always been for me a great allure.

my boyhood imaginings of london, my hopes to go to london, i was supposed to go to london for my formal education at the appleby school. which was just outside of london. but those hopes were dashed when is a lad of 11 years of age, my father died suddenly. i never got to see london. but, i read about london. i had also read about the great capitals of rome and the classic governments there. and, of course, the colonial capital, philadelphia city. i had always dreamed of going to philadelphia city, which was, i'm not sure if you know this, it was the second greatest city in the british empire. at that time, only second to london town. you probably do know that after july 2 it became the greatest city in america in 1776.

i got some fruit browse after i said you do know the question of july 2. our dependency was voted upon july 2? i hope. it was just adopted on the fourth as a formality. it was read to the public on the eighth. i saw these capital cities as bustling places of mystery. vibrancy. even at an early age, i was quite clear that capital cities were not simply the seats of government. the story behind the selection of the location both permanent

itol andorary, our cap are building is one that comes down to, or to use a whiskey maker's vernacular, his distills to pretty much one thing. coming together in the spirit of amnesty and mutual concession. that is the story behind the formation of our nation itself. it is the very essence of the founding and the raising up and the success of these united states of america. it is the very essence of our future success coming together in amity and mutual concession. the secret of her success or the secret lacking thereof of her failure. so, how did we even get to the

point where we could decide we could decide we could have a capitol? that's the question. how do we form of a sovereign or independent nation to take our place on the world stage? the ark of the story is all but a miracle, and humbly and with great humility, i suggest that my life has been intrinsically interwoven with that very story. it begins when our national capitol was london. and our colonial capital was philadelphia city. we were happy, loyal, british subjects. here in british america. we had all the rights and all the privileges, at least all the ones important to us. the most important thing of all,

is that our masters in great britain left us alone for 950 years going back to the 1600s. i refer to it a salutory neglect. it means we governed ourselves for 150 years. it means we adjudicated our own cases in our own courtrooms. it means we raised our own money for 150 years. as i said i was a loyal british subject. i served the king, i served the country. i joined the virginia colonial regiment at age one and 20 as major george washington. you may be wondering how someone goes from being a civilian to being a major? the answer is, i purchased my commission. that's the way it was done in great britain and in europe. i ended the practice.

if i had had more money, i would have purchased a higher rank but i did not. i became a soldier at a remarkable time. britain's enemy, always at war, short periods of peace. it is shaping up to be a war of empire. this would be a seven-year fought war. fought as far away as the philippines and india. fought in the africa. fought in europe and fought most extensively in north america. however, great britain is ultimately successful. they push the french out of north america. they take holdings and garrison troops around the world, victorious to the french. there is one problem, it all but bankrupted great britain. i tell you this because the king panicked. he turned to his ministers and told them to do

something about this. the ministers put their heads together and they came back to the king of england and said we have just finished fighting this expensive war against the french. most of the cost of that war was spent in british america. let us turn to the american colonials. we shall rebuild the treasury of great britain. it was a brilliant ideal on face value. remember, they had left us alone for a long time. they did not understand us. many of us saw this as the editor arrogance of an island nation trying to control the continent. what followed is a period of 11 with, starting in 1764, the systematic stripping of our freedoms and the usurpation of our liberties. this ultimately led, as you might imagine, to a decision to raise up arms against our king.

this is something no colony had done successfully, and we were going to do it against most powerful fighting force on earth , the british army and the british navy. you know how that story ends. but i will tell you three days ago, the anniversary of my commissioning as commander-in-chief of the united colonies of america. when i was commissioned, we were 13 months away from declaring independence. i had written a letter to mrs. washington that day. i sent her a copy of my will. this is june 15th. 1775. she was not happy to receive my will. i also made her a promise i would be home on christmas eve. i did not tell her which christmas eve. but i walked across the threshold of our home on christmas eve eight and a half years later. so, we were now a sovereign

independent nation. we had cast out the yoke. we had to ask ourselves what kind of country we were going to be. make no mistake about that, because there were a wide range of options and opinions, including those ill-conceived who wanted to make me what? king? you are bright as fresh paint. you know the context of my time, however, is when we signed our declaration of american independency, and then again when we signed our constitution, which i call the delivery upon that promise, america is the only nation on earth that is not under the control of men and women of absolute power. every other country, kings, queens, lords, ladies, emperors,

we for the first time in human history would raise up a nation based on ideas constrained by laws and the constitution. the constitution included a section for the establishment of a seat of government. we had had capitols, don't get me wrong. i mentioned philadelphia, we had philadelphia, we had new york, during the war. we had baltimore, we had lancaster, we had an annapolis, we had prince town, we had trent town, we had york, we had capitols. but now, we were faced with a permanent seat of government. we were faced with other things as well. please make no mistake about it,

this was a very busy time. we had much to do. you need to understand what was going on at this time. we had to establish the major departments in the government, and the executive branch, in my case. we had to appoint the judiciary, we had to recast our colonial era postal service. the post office. we had to determine the size, and the organization for our national defense, an army that would be subordinate to the civilian authority. we had to deal with our crushing war debt, and, of course, put in place a governmental financial mechanism going forward. i'm glad you are all sitting down. because if you are not aware of what our war debt was, it was a staggering number. our debt came close to $70 million.

i'm sure in your day and time it is nowhere near that high. it is unimaginable. did i mention, the politically imperative bill of rights? we had to memorialize and agree on them as well. it is with these tasks in motion we also took on the tones of determining the location of a permanent seat for the new federal government. as you might imagine, everyone believe we needed a permanent city. some believing that even its creation was a disservice to the citizenry. that it would cause a centralized government that would be too large and too strong. there was a great deal of concern and fear in some quarters for a strong

centralized government. some thought that the capital would be a center for stock jobbers and speculators. i reckon you all know how it was selected? yes? no? i will tell you a little bit about it. general alexander hamilton had released a report on the public credit. this was in january of 1790. it painted a fairly bleak picture in terms of the public credit situation. and, one of the ways that in a very complex scene that hamilton had to set straight in the financial mother going forward, he proposed the new federal government

would assume the new war debts of the state. i'm telling you i myself had hamilton explain this to me repeatedly, usually telling him, simpler, simpler. simpler, alexander. concurrent with this, mr. madison and mr. jefferson. they had a strong desire to see this seat of government in or towards the south-ward. so this yielded a compromise. this disparate direction, it ultimately the resulted in a -- ultimately resulted in a compromise over dinner at mr. jefferson's house in philadelphia city between mr. madison and colonel hamilton with jefferson in attendance. his compromise yielded the act of establishing the temporary and permanent seat of the government of the united states, the residence act.

i signed that into law of mid july of that year. it called for a permanent seat of government on the potomac river. somewhere between the mouth of the eastern branch, and the mouth of the con approaching -- and the mouth of another. that dinner compromise also yielded the debt assumption being included in the funding act. quite simply, colonel hamilton agreed that he would not stand in the way, and he would get others to agree to not stand in the way of locating the capitol city on the potomac river. mr. madison and mr. jefferson agreed they would not stand in the way any longer.

was grantedt, i full power to pick the exact location of the federal city. and i announced that location by proclamation in january 1791. it would be 100 square miles shaped like a diamond. it would include parts of georgetown, maryland and alexandria, virginia. these were two port towns and two tobacco inspection towns. english centers of commerce, if truth be told. i also pointed the first board of commissioners, it would be their responsibility to supervise the building of the federal city and to manage their affairs. there are many daniel carols in my day. all of them fine and good men. this particular one was daniel

carols of rock creek. and through marriage, david stewart. one of the immediate challenges, now i own all of that land and particularly the core was privately owned. some of it in considerable amounts by a small number of owners, proprietors as they were considered. i found myself in the position to negotiate and manage a group of men with widely disparate interests. and to diffuse those interests, those divisions, those factions. it is the real reason that my

hair turned white, truth be told. i had written in my diary after meeting the proprietors, the interests of the landholders about georgetown and those about carolsberg and that their fears and jealousies of each were counteracting the public purposes. and might prove injurious to the public purposes best interests. whilst if properly managed, they might be made to subserve. this was a tense time, where self interest amongst too many captains, could sink the ship. we had a rather intense meeting, the i am accurate -- i think i

am accurate in characterizing it as such. he seemed to be digging in at that meeting. however, miracle of miracles, after the proprietors had a night to sleep on the matter and perhaps some quiet well applied additional conversations on my part, i will not go into details, at days like i was greatly pleased to note in that same journal that i mentioned before that the proprietors saw the propriety of my observations. and whilst they were contending for the shadow, they might have lost, lost the substance, but such was not the case. we signed an agreement that same day, the 30th of march, the very end of the month of march. you may ask yourself, because

many did at that time, why did the proprietors sign over their land to the new federal government? why? it was not without self-interest. in the sense of business. that was not fully lost. it should not have been. i remember during the war of american independency congress kept insisting the citizenry who made shoes, who made coats, who made muskets produce these things for no pay and no profit. i told him this will not work. the spirit of this will only take you so far. people have interests and they have needs. and the proprietors had interests and needs. they also reckon that the

continuous landholdings would yield great returns. ultimately, once the federal city was fully established. by the by, they would also derive some real current income. rent from the new tenant the united states of america. peter, the colonel, set to work at that point, so the area began and he began working closely with my commissioners. it was not seamless, i will tell you. it was not a perfect relationship, but it ultimately worked. i also elected, because of the future prospects for the proprietors, that there should be a major government building

in each and every one of the sectors of the city. my friends, i said at the beginning, the essence was that we came together as a people during the period of time leading up to the war, american independence, in the war, and in the piece. we came together in the spirit of amity and mutual concession. my vision for the city was the same as my boyhood interpretation, that this city, washington city, the federal city in the district of columbia would not just be a seat of government where

elected officials visited. i saw the federal city as a living city, where people thrived and engaged in discourse with each other. where business was conducted, where tradesmen profited and the arts occurred. made divine providence not disappoint our fervent expectations. i want to conclude by once again conveying to you the most important message of what i have spoken of. this idea of amity and mutual concession. i remember september 17, 1787, anyone know the significance of that date? the constitution was signed on that date.

we had been at work more than a third of the year. i was presiding officer at philadelphia city. i thanked all the delegates and then i dismissed them. to return to their respective states the ratification process to begin. i was up on the dais, house in my own papers together, and i heard a tap coming closer to the dais. coming closer to the day of, a sage of philadelphia, dr. benjamin franklin. he was in great agony, he had gout in both feet and stones in his kidneys. there were days when dr. franklin could not walk in to the constitutional convention. he was carried in on the shoulders of four prisoners from the walnut street jail. other days worse than that. i stepped down, i took dr. franklin's arm in support, and i said to him dr., how may i be of service?

he had a walking stick with a beautiful gold liberty cap at the top. i will tell you that when he passed, that being his most prized personal possession, he left it to me. he started poking it past me and said to me, and he said to me, general, throughout these proceedings i have been looking at your chair. i said my chair? he said your chair. he said general, in our day and time when a woodcarver cards the -- carves or when a painter paints the sun on the horizon, or when a woodcarver carves the sun on a horizon, one never knows. one never knows what doctor? he says, one never knows if it is a rising sun or if it is a

setting sun. throughout the great rancor of this constitutional convention, the debate, large states versus small states, north states versus south states, poor states versus rich states, i saw this union crumbling. i will only to the fact that dr. franklin had a clear. today, we have signed the constitution, and i have the great happiness of knowing it was a rising sun in america and not a setting one. i tell you this, because you may have problems in your day and in you need to know that we have always had problems here, before an will we were a country, when we fought a war, when we became you are in a country, this federal city did not happen easily.

but, as i have written and you may read that we americans can overcome absolutely everything. we can defeat any enemy, as long as we set aside faction and set aside division, and as i have written, dare i say, set aside political party which does , little but raise the interest of party above the interest of the nation. and, come together in the spirit of amity and mutual concession. i thank you for your kind attention. i remain your humble and obedient servant. thank you, kindly. [applause]

>> there is no need to stand on ceremony. i will sit myself down. >> good evening. i am john adams. [laughter] wait a minute, i am not. i certainly feel like john adams, trying to follow george washington is an impossibly difficult task, certainly. in my other life, i am donald kennon. formerly the chief historian of the u.s. capitol historic society.

it is my privilege to introduce the authors and moderate a question and answer session with them. briefly, a little bit about how i am involved in this project. even though i retired three years ago, the project had begun before then. i felt a responsibility to continue with the project and you -- and see it through to conclusion. i am a little biased. i think this is a wonderful book. it is a very attractive book and a real contribution to the scholarship about the founding of capitol hill and its growth and development. before i answer the panelists i , would like to give special recognition to three people who were not able to be here tonight. first is wrong, the recently

retired president of the historical society whose support , along with the society board of trustees saw this long and complex process through to completion. second, i would like to give special recognition to two talented professionals whose work gave the book it's distinctive and attractive look. this is france jensen. and cindy peters. many other individuals and institutions provided assistance and they are listed in the acknowledgments section of the book. following the introductions of the speakers and their brief opening statements, we will have time for questions from the audience. please, if you have a question raise your hand and you will be , identified. c-span will bring you a microphone because we want to get your comments recorded as

well. if you look at the page, at the books dedication page, you will see it is dedicated to charles carroll carter. it is not customary to dedicate a book to one of its authors but in this case, carroll carter was so much more than an author. that was the unanimous wish of and the fellow contributors to dedicate the book to him for his tireless devotion, inspiration and support for its creation and publication. charles carroll carter is a descendent of three important american families. the carrolls of maryland, the carters of virginia and the lees. you might say, he is a perfect trifecta. he graduated from georgetown preparatory school, the university of notre dame and he earned an mba from american

university. he served as a commissioned officer during the korean war. in he joined the newly formed 1969, u.s. department of transportation and later became special assistant to the secretary. in 1974, he became the founder, publisher and editor of mass , transit magazine. carroll and his beloved wife, rosemary, have six children and 14 grandchildren. so, the legacy will continue. in perpetuity. it is my pleasure to turn the microphone over to you to tell us about your book.

carroll: good afternoon. it is too early for evening. but, here we are. my name is charles carroll carter. i have been captivated since i was a boy by my family history and the place held in that history by the carrolls of maryland. i felt compelled to tell the story of how this most valuable

capital city for the united states of america was formed and how it came about. this could easily be called the ultimate real estate deal. i thought it necessary to write about this so as to describe the final roles played, first by my direct forbearer, daniel carol. the signer of the constitution and one of the first commissioners of the city of washington. nephew, daniel caroll. if these titles and names confuse you, one of the reasons

we are here is because everybody is confused about who these people are. the third is daniel carol dunnington, the 25-year-old owner of the 1400 acres where the capital itself is cited. this book closely follows the developments and the enormous risks he took to create this great monument to democracy. and, he paid for it. after the destruction of both his professional home and the early days of the founding of capitol hill, right where you are sitting, through the

destruction of other key land and improved properties of his, in 1814, daniel carol dunnington stood fast to further his properties. 1814, daniel carol dunnington stood for the rebuilding and improvement of the area that is today, capitol hill. he did so for the balance of his life. my personal hope is that this book will stand for the same belief for all the early founders and building a better city, a better country and a better world. this is a special day for my

co-authors and all of you who have worked hard to see this book published. also, for all of our descendents. there are a lot of them. those who value our founders vision and struggles to bring this great nation to life may , god bless all of us. [applause] >> our next speaker is william charles -- better known as chuck imbibed a deep appreciation of american history while growing up in the boston area during the bicentennial of the american revolution. he studied international affairs and modern european history at georgetown university.

before returning to washington dc and that other great bicentennial year of 1989 when he joined the staff of the george washington university's first federal congress project. that was another one of our founding fathers's commitments to higher education. at the first federal congress project, chuck was one of the editors of the 22 volume documentary history of the federal congress. in he joined the historical 2015, society as chief historian and vice president for education and scholarship. his scholarly interests focus on constitutional history and the politics and personalities of the federalist era.

tell us a little bit about your contribution. chuck: thank you for enabling me to be part of this. when don recruited me to succeed him as chief historian, he did not say there was a book in the wings already. he brought me to rosemary's and carol's house for lunch and they lured me with high caloric foods. they finally got me to see that this was a book that needed to be written. what was my role? i am a political historian. this takes place in the early republic. they wanted to be sure, we all agreed firmly on this from the jump that we needed to tell the underlying story that made it possible for the proprietors to act on their self-interest for the public good as the general spoke to us about a few minutes ago.

that was enabled by an in mytanding as i see it essay you will read, and interpretation that applied the lessons of madison's federalist essay number 10. he said the more you extend the sphere and bring in stakeholders to a project or endeavor, the more likely you are to further promote the success of that endeavor. washington broadened these proprietors. -- brought in these proprietors. he made sure they had a stake in the success of the city. the rest of that story i lead to my much more capable co-authors. the three of them i feel very , proud to be able to work with them. i have known both of them since i came back from grad school a long time ago. i have to say being able to , appear in the same title page with you two in particular is an absolute highlight of my life.

thank you. [applause] don: our next speaker is don alexander hawkins. an architect and nearly lifelong resident and student of washington, d.c. he began aspects of the city's early history while earning a masters degree in urban design at catholic university. he has lectured widely on washington, d.c.'s beginnings. he writes occasionally on its major unbuilt projects in washington history magazine. he is preparing for publication a book to be entitled l'enfant plan, described and deconstructed. don's contribution to the book includes a special section of

maps most of which he compiled , and drew himself. there are some of them on display up at the room. you can see them when you look at the book. tell us about your work on the maps. don: carroll found me and asked me to do a map describing the carol family's attachment to the land, here. this is a book about family. it is a book about money. it is a book about building, it is about politics. it is also, and there is no other way of dealing with maps. it is about space. this is about space in this area that we knew in all kinds of ways. as a guy who got into, i am

really an architect. i got into how do things look when i was first studying washington formally. how something looks on the ground, what its shape is, what the space is like cannot be dealt with in any other way other than by drawing maps. you have to have a map. imagine somebody trying to describe -- take any map you have ever known. imagine somebody trying to describe everything in that map. no matter how simple it really , cannot be done. you have got to have a diagram. i am lucky. i the one who gets to draw the am diagram. what happens if you're that kind of person, people like pam and chuck and carrolll, when they come to me, i feel like they need me. and boy, do i need them, i need them because they do the work of finding out what is there. i hope that in reading this, i hope that you will realize that

maps really help when you are reading about real estate or politics. this is a plea for work for all mapmakers. i believe maps are so much more important than many people who write books do. not only my maps, but when pam of whathe detailing daniel carol dunnington did and those other guys she found more , maps. enjoy the book. i have so much enjoyed the experience. as with every project i've ever been involved with, the other people bring me stuff that i just could not have known in any other way. thank you, again. don has been a master. we are not cats but i'm sure the about herding them

came to mind some time when he was trying to get this going. that said, that is a triumph among other things. thank you. [applause] donald: as a dog lover, i was never into herding cats. considering how stubborn my dog is, i could never herd dogs. one thing i want to point out, i ,o not know if this has come up what is the connection of the capital building to capitol hill into the carroll family? daniel carroll of dunnington was the largest landowner. in what became the district of columbia and it was on his land that the capital building was situated.

i don't want to steal any of carroll's thunder. when i first met carroll, which was probably about 15 years ago, the first question he asked me and one of the first questions he would ever ask anyone was -- why is capitol hill referred to as jenkins hill when it was on carroll land? somebody else can tell you the reason why the name jenkins hill stuck. that is the connection between the capital society, the carol family and the capitol hill. it was on carroll land. our final panelist is pamela scott. a scholar who has been researching,

writing, lecturing and curating, about the national , capital's architecture history for more than four decades. i have no idea what she can do in her spare time. she does not have any. the capital has been the center of a research teaching and writing articles on john trumbull. they have delved into the contributions of these key individuals. her exhibit at the library of congress resulted in her exploration of the capital's early architecture in temple of liberty. her next book will be on charles bulfinch's washington career with a focus on his work at the capital. pam's section of the book is the largest and the most detailed history of the origins and development of capitol hill and -- as a neighborhood, its infrastructure and so forth. tell us a little bit about your work on the book. pamela: thank you, don.

i met carroll 15 years ago when he asked me to go through newspapers looking for daniel carrollut of dunnington. this is before the digitization of newspapers. it was a microfilm intense project. i was surprised at how much i learned. his name came up frequently. it was the beginning of this long interest in the early development of capitol hill as a residential neighborhood. the same names kept coming up in newspapers. official records, private correspondence. they were the people who actually carried out the process

of creating the residential neighborhood around the capital itself. my view of history is that context is everything. you need to place people in the context of the place that they lived, what they did and who they interacted with. that process has led me to a process of hovering that at my own peril i neglect an interesting tidbit. i have learned it can be the hinge or the doorway into a much more meaningful addition to what it belongs to. how to arrange thousands of pieces of papers into a coherent and meaningful story was the challenge. it took months to arrive at nine subject headings for my chapter

in this book. all the while, new information was coming in as i searched to clarify what it was i already had. the first section, capitol hill in the 1790's introduces daniel carroll of dunnington. alsos a known quantity but thomas law, a highborn anglo-indian who came to america in 1794. he was enticed by the developers to become involved in developing capitol hill. he married eliza martha , washington's eldest granddaughter, but also -- it was her eldest granddaughter.

law spent his fortune developing and promoting washington because he believed that every american would be interested in its new capital city. he soon learned otherwise. he enticed three members of jefferson's cabinet to live on capitol hill by offering them finer properties at lower rent available near the president's house. thus, he changed the social dynamic of capitol hill. he influenced its political one. boarding houses and hotels churches, turnpikes and bridges, invited thek that working population to buy shares , develops businesses.

african-american william costin , martha washington's grandson and nephew, who worked for both carrolll and law, built houses for his family, one facing the capital square where he and his daughters lived in harmony with their neighbors congressional , employees and members of congress living in hotels. new information about house that heivil erected at considerable cost to help develop the neighborhood for the accommodation of congress, how the residences fared in august of 1814 when the firing of the capital destroyed it as well as some private properties, including washington's double house. this help to fill up the history of the capital's neighborhood.

special challenges both carol and law faced in its aftermath. carroll's home was one of many important houses lost. new houses and office buildings claimed their space. this is just the tip of the iceberg in a much broader story that we hope to go on and continue with. thank you. [applause] >> now, as we turn to the q and a portion, let me exercise a moderator privilege of opening the session by asking one follow-up question to pamela. one thing you need to know about pam is that she never gives up. when she takes on a subject, she never stops researching. in your continuing research since the book went to press, what more new things have you learned that you can share with us today? pamela: one of the most brutal

but least known group of documents are the papers of congressman of the era. letters, accounts of various kinds. dagit ofered that david connecticut was the person that both carroll and law turned to to introduce into congress petitions on their behalf and on behalf of other residents of capitol hill. at a time when the district of columbia had no legal way to petition congress. he also introduced legislation relating to robert's house.

which was one of those burned by the british. in a wonderful development in historical studies, many institutions are digitizing their documents and putting them up, putting their availability up on the internet, on their webpages and inviting people to buy them or in some cases, have them sent to them. so, i found that among these papers was a letter or letters son, john law,'s who was, along with his

brothers, an anglo-indian, born in calcutta educated at , harvard university. in 1815, francis and carter of stafford, virginia which brings us full circle in this interesting story. during his career as a lawyer in washington, he often helped african-americans who were fighting for their liberty. he lost a lawsuit to alexander scott from maryland first slander. -- for slander. law said that he enslaved a free man whose mother was white. according to law, that african-american should have been free.

law lost that lawsuit. he then was fined $5,000. he moved to indiana where for a couple of years he carried on various business arrangements. when he returned to washington, he applied for the job of secretary of the senate but did not achieve it. he was so well-liked in washington, that in 1822, he was chosen to give the principal address laying the cornerstone of city hall. there is a much broader and complex and nuanced history that is yet to be explored. thank you. [applause]

donald: we will open it up to questions from the audience. if you have a question, raise your hand to be identified. wait for c-span to bring the microphone to you. who has the first question? don't be shy. connie: i am connie carter, daughter of one of the authors. mr. carter, could you tell us maybe the general could add a bit. what it was about that particular place of all of the land that could have been purchased or acquired that made it so attractive to become the sighting for the capital?

in going to, explore what landis wherever it is, you want to know it's size and shape. you want to know its elevation. in addition to that, you especially want to know its approach to water and drainage. also, the possibility for being connected to other bodies of water. point being, we are talking about the 1800's here. the shape of the land is very important. one could say that it is the

most important characteristic of whatever interest we might have in land of one sort or another. it is the relationship to water, secondly, it is the elevation that the land is at. -- three the extent to which that site lets you into other bodies of land. what am i rambling on about? i'm saying there are a lot of these qualities having to do with land that are important.

enough on that for now. l'enfant said exploring this areas of the capital would be set up on was woodland area, it had to be cleared. but he said, it is a pedestal in need of a monument. donald: do we have another question? anyone? yes. >> i would ask the authors if they could tell us why it was called jenkins hill and not carroll hill? [laughter] >> there was a jenkins family in the old area of the city that

mostly seemed to rent land. there was a plot, my mind says it might have been a route 60 acres or so actually owned by that was jenkins. a good half-mile away from carol hill. around.ins were we have agreed the only reason we use the term jenkins hill is enfant characterized it as bad. -- it as that. he mentioned jenkins hill. he had heard from somebody in georgetown that that hill was where jenkins was. it was something sloppy in the early history of the city that

made that 225-year-old mistake. pamela: i would like to add something as well. i have been through the papers in great detail. he gives several place names as well as the names of streams and so forth that we don't otherwise know about today. he was very well informed about how to describe this whole area in terms of those current names. he does in what became greenleaf point, he referred to the eastern part of it as carroll point and the western part of it as maryland point. there were several different examples of this. >> was he misinformed about the name of the hill? pamela: no, it was called

jenkins hill at the time. capitol hill is a hill but then it is a plateau. the land that he thought of as that entire hill, not just where the capital is located but the plateau behind it. it was called jenkins hill. carroll: i am interrupting. it is a fine art when it comes to 18th-century washington real estate. there is a description in the book on how it is used and why it is called jenkins hill.

it has to do with l'enfant and others doing his kind of four. coming upon the land in question, up by the potomac river and as he progresses along , he is not familiar with it and so on. he comes along across the land and goes into the nearby farmer and says can you tell me who , owns this land? the answer comes back carroll. the void he is pointing to -- he is pointing to is something on the order of 100

acres on the flat. is 25 acres by 100 acres, a square plot set among a number of property owners that own land on a parcel of that part of the countryside that was owned by who, who owns this? the answer came back jenkins. why was that? it was because, right near there or in fact, right there, there was a 100 acre plot that was surveyed and was owned or occupied by a jenkins. whoever used this was asked how

did you get here? i got up here through jenkins' property. it was a name of convenience that casual comers to the land in question used in connection. sorry for the convoluted answer. sorry it took so long. sorry, but it is as it is. we have some maps that we had made. this was especially to help people with this kind of question. is this one of them? >> yes. >> we went ahead and sized the value of the map. jenkins was here. and rented over there. carroll: it is that sort of thing you are confronted with here.

>> i have a question to his excellency about his relationships with the carroll family, charles carroll, daniel carroll of rock creek -- or his cousin, john carroll, the bishop. >> why would you have an interest in that? >> only because i am related to charles carroll carter and i am charles carroll carter jr. >> you do know that i knew that. [laughter] >> yes sir, i did. was a signer of the declaration of independence. he was one of the 56 men who pledged everything for the formation of this nation. i could go individually amongst the three daniels but all of

them were fine, upstanding individuals. all of them were my contemporaries. they were well-respected gentlemen. irwill tell you that they ar selfless public service in , agreeing to this negotiation with them, in some cases did not work out particularly well for all of them. and so, i believe that in many respects, it is the height of selfless public service that is being displayed by this family in general. donald: if there are no other questions, i think i will close by saying that this is the kind of question that i would have asked but in reverse. i would have asked the panelists , since we have the president, what was there reading of the

relationship between the carrolls and the president? let me point out something for those of you who buy the book and read it. there is a famous story about a conflict between daniel carroll of dunnington and pierre l'enfant. it was the cow's -- the house carol was building. he ordered his workmen to dismantle the structure. i won't tell you anything more about that except george washington gets involved. >> i told you. donald: you can read mr. washington's correspondence about that in this book. carroll: we have a photocopy of the letter so that you can be certain of our sources. >> let me know turn the podium

back to don carlson. [applause] don: i hope you all enjoyed the commentary about the book as much as i have tonight. i encourage you to take the time to meet the authors and purchase the book and prepare to join one of our capitol hill tours. i think you all for coming tonight on behalf of the capital historical society, for your support of our work and your support of this book. thank you. [applause] weekend on american history tv, on c-span3, at 6:00 p.m. eastern on the civil war, william marple, author of the

book, lincoln's mercenaries, explains the economic factors that drove northerners to volunteer. at 8:00, san diego state university professor on the militaryar from the escalation in 1965 to the fall of saigon 10 years later. at 11:00 a.m., military historian and his book, the unknown and the untold story of the unknown soldier and the most decorated heroes who brought him home. real30 p.m. eastern on america, as part of our alaskan 1930 six film, silver millions, the 1949 film, eskimo hunters and western alaska, the 1967 film, alaska centennial and the film a left got highway. watch american history tv this weekend on c-span3. >>