that was another -- enough levity to start the fight. >> richard baker, donald ritchie and ray smock on c-span q&a on sunday night at 8 pm. next on american history tv, former presidential speak writers talk about communicating policy from the present point of view. we hear from who worked with clinton and first lady hillary clinton and john mcconnell who wrote for president george w. bush and vice president dick cheney. new york university hosted this 90 minute program. >> i'm the external affairs associate here at nyu, washington, dc. on behalf of the center, thank you for coming to tonight's event. tonight marks the first of many summer events in the young leaders network series. by developing the young networks

leader the center seeks to create programs that will enrich the time students spend at their summer internships and in washington, d.c. we hope events like this will help interns like you build a network of relationships with mentors and peers. maybe encourage you to return to the nation's capital to start a career in public service after you graduate. tonight we are joint by former presidential speech writers during the george w. bush and bill clinton administrations. john mcconnell served more than 10 years on the white house staff and two administrations. as a senior speechwriter for george w. bush and dick cheney, john was part of a team responsible for all the presidents major addresses. the bush/cheney white house he held a unique position to the president and assistant to the vice president. in his career he has worked as a principal speechwriter for vice president dan quayle, bob

dole and paul ryan. june shih began her career as a reporter for a florida newspaper. she left to assist the first lady hillary clinton with her syndicated newspaper column and speeches. in 1997 june shih became a special assistant to the president and presidential speechwriter writing for bill clinton on a range of issues from civil rights and racial relations to education and healthcare policy. june shih went on serving as chief speechwriter for miss clinton's campaign in 2000. she will be joining the nyu family this fall as communications director at nyu. tonight we will have a moderator.

he covered the special elections consonant race in alabama between roy moore and deb jones. first started at nbc news in july 2013. this event would not have been possible without the coordination and support of the staff of the center along our colleagues at nyu, washington, d.c. please join us in the lobby for light reception after the event and thank you and enjoy the program. >> hello everyone.

are we good? can you hear me? thank you for having us and thank you to kevin. this is john mcconnell and this is june shih. we will take questions afterwards. i have been here in dc for five years. i've been around the scene for a short time. this is an opportunity for me. for many people here the question is, where will you be in the next few years. how old were you when you started with hillary clinton? >> 23. >> mac she was the first lady. >> mac yes. suddenly you can find yourself in that situation. >> how did you get connected? >> is a reporter in florida, i am more of a partisan than a democrat. i wanted to take a side.

i wrote -- i called a friend and he said, hillary clinton's team would love you. he had this spot. fax your resume and cover letter and i will give it to her. i never thought it would work. i did not sweat it. ice what so many cover letters before. it took hours. this one i did not sweat because i didn't think i had a chance. i wrote it. it was a couple of paragraphs and i faxed it to my friend and got it to her. nothing happened. luckily i live in dc. i called hillary's speechwriter and said i was coming to town and would you do and into -- informational interview and she said yes.

it was awesome because i got to go to the white house. if nothing comes of this i get to see the old executive office building. this would be amazing. i went back to florida and nothing happened. out of the blue her assistant called me and said we have an opening. hillary will write a column and she needs an assistant. someone to reset -- research it so i did a blind edition. you write a sample column and they judge it. i got the job. it took a while because they were agonizing about what to do. i was ready to go to florida. i thought i would volunteer. i volunteered in a week into my volunteering she said you got the job. i was very happy.

i never thought it would happen. months later she told me the reason she kept me in mind was because she loved my cover letter. you just never know. >> will go into personal anecdotes along the way. you stayed with the clinton's. >> you did -- i did. >> one of those lines along the way is when you meet these people it's a matter where those things can take you. >> is kind of like college. it's like the friends you meet. you're always connect it. >> that worked out for john as well. >> mac -- >> tell us how you got involved in speech writing. >> it's a similar story. i was out of law school.

it was 1990. i was clerking for a federal judge in new york city. these -- wanted to do something political early in my career. i came down to washington and i talked to everyone in washington. that took about an hour. i was not sure how to go about this. i had a few law firms waiting for my answer about whether i would work for them after the clerkship. i was holding off. i thought it would be really great to go and do something political and washington. the short of it is, because i was telling my friends what i wanted to do in my judge knew what i wanted to do and my professors as well, as a result of my letting these people know that i was interested in something political, a person i

met in law school knew someone in the vice president's office and they were looking for a speechwriter. they wanted someone who was available soon who had good recommendations and was willing to work for little money. that's how many people get their start in washington. i came down and talk to the deputy chief of staff spencer abraham. he was later a senator from michigan and then secretary of energy. they hired me. i was a speechwriter. spencer abraham told me the vice president has not had a speechwriter like the one we are hiring. that is someone to work on political speeches and things other than major addresses. he had a guy who was a foreign policy expert and did the speeches. they need someone to do everything else. vice president quayle had not

had someone full-time doing that. he had done his own thing. he was a senator prior to being vice president. this is the midterm elections in 1990. they said we will see how it works out. i was hired in august. if this works out will keep you after the election. let's see how things go. i thought, the worst possible scenario is that i work for two and half months on the white house staff. the best scenario played out which is they hired me for two months and forgot about the two months. they kept me on. i mentioned to spencer abraham, wasn't this a probation job, he said you are fine. that's how i got into it. it's a serious point about making sure your friends know what you want to do because this is -- you talk to people with interesting jobs in

washington and just about everyone will tell you if there being honest they will think of a person who thought of them connected them to someone else or decided to give them a break. you hear dick cheney talk about his career coming to washington at 25 years old. then he ended up as white house chief of staff. it was people along the way seeing what he was interested in. another good way of becoming a presidential speech writer is go to work for a governor who gets elected president. you have defined that governor. >> oftentimes younger people hear the words it's about who you know. i think oftentimes there's meaning to that. yet it seems from what you articulate, it's a matter of

relationships. what type of people have you seen in these offices -- you told me you saw dan quayle last week. that's a relationship that is more than 30 year strong. how important is that when people are presenting themselves as individuals in a competitive space. what are they looking for? how does that relationship last in the long run? by establishing a friendship, what does that look like? >> i called one of my best friends when i got the job offer . it hit me that this is not a job you is into. on day one you will be given an assignment to write a speech and it's gonna be due in 48 hours or 72 hours. it's this heaviness that settled on me. as soon as i started i better

be at the top of my game. i remember saying to my friend from law school, he said don't worry, just make yourself indispensable. i thought that was good advice. how am i to do that? nobody is dispensable. what he was saying was just work hard, be reliable and be a good colleague. one of the greatest experiences i've had is working for the george w. bush for president to paint in austin, texas in 2000. that was a magical gathering of people. wonderful people. if there were rivalries or pettiness or anything like that i was immune from it. i was unaware of it. it was a congenial, friendly

smooth operating team. everyone pointed in the same direction and everyone moved forward. campaigns tend to be that way otherwise they don't turn out well. it is important to like the people you work with, to be liked by them and more than that like the person you work for. that takes away some things that would be burdens on you. indispensable to me means being reliable and being someone that people like dealing with. >> i agree with that. you get the speech and it's a last minute deal and you are panicking. i cannot mess this up. it's a lot of stress. if you can deal with it and produce a good product, most of the time, you get it great

reputation. being a good colleague and low drama. i took assignments and went away and produced decent speeches. when people edit it i was diplomatic about them. i was not a pre-madonna but you don't understand genius. i may have been thinking that. it's all about being diplomatic , being a good colleague, being someone who's easy to work with and not complaining. i had -- because i was young i was grateful for the opportunity so i kept my head down and got things done. looking back as a middle aged woman maybe i should have been more pushy because i was like, oh my god i can't believe i have this. overall your reputation will

carry you far. if people know you are reliable, you don't panic, you don't fail and you are easy to work with, that reputation stays with you and people 20 years down the line remember that. they will help you at some point . you never know when. you have warm feelings for them as well as they do for you. >> the principal knows that you are reliable. he said to me don't let people make your life difficult. i did not hold that over anyone. i appreciate it level of confidence.

>> many people in this room are familiar with the speech writing director for president obama. he's now operating a podcast. the people that hear him now, he's outspoken on the front lines. for you and for most people that come to washington are getting involved in politics because they want to be politically engaged. how can they make a difference? when you are a speechwriter, you are representing the principle. to what extent was that balance like when working for your principal? june you worked on domestic issues. what was that process like in infusing your own opinions, knowledge base with that of trying to accomplish a goal of representing the principle. >> it was easy.

i'm still a clinton democrat. i'm not liberal. i did not -- i was politically aligned with them. what was great -- i was one of the few minority speech writers. i got immigration speeches. that was easy. everyone was aligned of the immigration issue. what america is not defined by race but our common ideals. all those things were amazing for me to help for me late for the president. there was no controversy there unlike today. i did not have any crisis of conscience. i was aligned.

>> in 1997 president clinton announced he was doing a year of town halls when it comes to race relations. from my understanding it didn't go how the administration had hoped. it was a tough issue. he got a lot of criticism about not being forceful enough. how did you when you are planning those town hall events -- was there coaching? what was that like? how closely did you work with the president? >> there's another speech writer who worked on this also. there's a whole race -- i can't remember what they were called. they were all involved. i was not on deck for every single speech.

i got one speech to work on which was the 40th anniversary of the desegregation at little rock central high school. that was amazing because -- it was more like a statement of a case without many solutions. we haven't figured that out. it was remarkable that he was commenting on it. we need to recognize we still have so many hurdles. separation and that but we still feel segregated. i don't know what it was but it conjured up the right feelings. as the initiative continued and i was not involved in the initiative part it was hard to speak 100 percent. >> how did you -- you had your

thoughts. how do you write a speech outlining that knowing the extent to which the administration wants to go? >> i wrote that speech with my boss who is the director of speechwriting. we wrote what we thought. we wrote about self-segregation in schools. it was more honoring the bravery of the people of the past. it's not just a black and white mac country. more than half of the population in california is multicultural. we wrote it and gave it to clinton. he called us up at 2 am and we were working on in the hotel.

his person called us and come talk to him about it. where is he? he was at his mother-in-law's house. we had to wake up people to find out where he was. we finally got there. he was in a t-shirt and we were hanging out with them. he rewrote a part of it. he talked about being alive during the integration. he did his clinton thing about understanding all sides. it was great. it was a frank address of what that state was. going forward it was more like let's recognize this. i don't know how the

conversation went as it did. >> i say a person is elected president of the united states -- president bush who i worked for is entirely capable of writing his own speeches but does not have time. the president speaks 500 times a year so that's why you have the speechwriting office. your job is to remember that ideally the work you are doing is expressing the presidents best thoughts at the matter at hand. not yours. you are going to make the case as strongly as it can be made. you want to marshal the best arguments. you want to bring the most compelling fat -- facts and anecdotes that you can gather to your background and through

your research. a writer should never confuse a speech for a president that they are doing with their own body of written material. you are not contributing to your corpus of work. i don't believe you should think of it that way. you should think of it as the presidents words. if you're emphasizing something that the president what not, of course the president will catch it and be annoyed by and be really annoyed if you do it to him again. that's why there are able writers -- a proportion of them who would be able -- speechwriters for another is not 100 percent. some people may be thought of of good speechwriters but are

not happy in the position because they don't like to change their style to suit their president. in terms of writing about things you care about, you are better if you care about. you are better if you agree with what you are writing. >> you bring that passion. >> i'm a lawyer by training. i can make an argument for the opposing position. one of our professors told us the weight to be the best advocate is to be an expert in your adversaries position. that's where you spot the weaknesses. that's where you will note where the listener is you skipped a logical step. things of that nature. by the same token, you don't want to spend every day applying that talent in writing an argument for things you don't agree with.

you can do that on occasion. it was more common in my own case to be writing about something i did not care about. not so much something i did not agree with. i did not have strong opinions on every matter of federal policy. john, you are one of the few that served all 8 years in the administration. he spoke -- worked with cheney and bush. can you walk us through how you get to putting the words on paper. you can go through any number -- weather it's any speech.

>> we get direction from the president and doctor rice who was the national security advisor. i saw the president a lot in the days after 9/11 because there were a number of speeches before the one on september 20.

we got direction from the president. myself, the speechwriter and mike scully were starting in austin. we divided the speeches and editing them together. we ended up writing them together. throughout the presidents -- we wrote on that basis. three guys in the same office at the same computer writing this speech is line by line. he would come in even before a single word was written with a clear stance and include direction on how the speech was going to be put together. kind of a theoretical construct. we started from that. a major speech like that address to the

joint session, state of the union, there will be input from the president on the front end and a lot of input from the president once it has been drafted and put through the process and reviewed. he would give a lot of input on many speeches. the state of the union is a different thing altogether. you have dress rehearsals in the white house where the president reads it out loud in the speechwriters are there. many changes are made. that's the dedication maybe to a museum. your neck and get a lot of direction where to go with this speech. it can be assumed that speechwriters are able to put together appropriate speeches. ronald reagan dies, the pope

dies -- >> what is that conversation looking like? >> on a policy speech? >> who are you working with? >> mac there are policy people in the white house. you will get direction from the white house communications director there. this is going to be social security week. what's our policy? talked to the policy people. it's understood the president wants these five principles to be followed. this will be a speech on the five principles. this is the big speech at the beginning of the week. then you do a town hall meeting in kansas the next day. he needs a page of talking points. you will put those things together. speechwriting, we don't have to come up with the policy, thankfully. there are great policy people.

when things working for the president of the united states is the talent around you. they'll be a great expert to tell you everything you need to know about certain policies. i will say i can think of a couple of examples about a speech that was on the calendar -- i was in the deputy chief of staff's office one day and it was called the deputies meeting. i was there and he said to me, do you guys have what you need for that speech on so-and-so

next thursday? >> i know. we know where the event is but that's it. he turns to the person in charge of the policy. he said, you tell your boss if we don't have the policy by the day after tomorrow the speech is canceled. the policy appeared in that speech office. speechwriting sometimes drives the policy process. typically it should not. >> i was unable to cover a demonstration. i've been able to travel with vice president mike pence. he had one speechwriter who was going from campaign type rallies to overseas trips. it was impressive to watch. he had different messages day today.

how do you do that? campaign versus the actual policy side of it. you both have done campaigns and official and you did it within the same period of time. how is that process like? is a different working with the campaign versus the official site? >> the campaign is more talked about. there's a message and you repurpose that message. you do it the same but different every time. it's all about getting the crowd into it. when you are the president, you try to bring some history. you take america along this road . there's usually a little more time to think it through and make it beautiful.

you get a fax sheet. your job is to write a speech based on a fax sheet that does not read like a fax sheet so you bring in the poetry. campaign is very responsive. even now we are worried about soundbites. i don't think soundbites are an issue anymore. everything is online everywhere . before the 90s, that's 20 seconds on the evening news. what's the line? all the senior people are sweating about the soundbite. i don't think that happens anymore. >> dick cheney writes in his book about when he was chief of staff to president ford and they lost to carter in 76, to that point it was the closest

presidential election. ford told cheney i want this to be a smooth transition. cheney got in touch with the carter peep. the way he puts it in his book he says, overnight you go from how do we beat them to how do we help them? when the election is over it's over. if the speechwriters keep writing like the election is on it won't sound right because it is different. campaigning is about to use an unfavored word, dividing, defining choices -- >> contrast. >> exactly right. by the time the votes are cast the idea of campaign speech in his to have it as clearly set to the mind of the voter that is listening that you can possibly do so. what is the

choice in this election and what are the stakes of making different choices. when you are president it's all about broader tones. the speeches can differ but they should all have some sort of a thread. you should attempt to bring people together. there's another difference that you discover after working on a campaign. in the campaign speeches you are saying things like, i will propose the congress such and such. if elected president, i will direct the secretary of state to perform such and such. when

you are president you are saying, i am proposing to the congress. i have directed the secretary of state. you go from the language of persuasion and vote gathering and -- to the language of power. >> what are your principles like ? >> what were your principles like? what was your relationship like? >> with hillary -- she is the smartest person i've worked with.

she's a very smart person. you cannot get away with bad stuff. she sees it right away. she is kind about it. i did my best to avoid it. she is a lovely, warm woman. she's very gracious and funny. i started ghostwriting with her column. sometimes we were talking about it and it was a warm relationship. president clinton he was always very nice. once again very smart. he held back a bit because he knew i came from hillary staff. if he did not like something he didn't always tell me.

he was very smart. there are a few times you get to talk to him about a speech. we would go over the speech after he delivered it. he would tell me why he tweaked a line. it was because he was reading the audience and could tell he should do it this way instead. he was telling me i did it this way because of that. they were both kind and generous . when clinton was going to china in 1998 they realized i was chinese-american. they divided foreign and domestic speechwriters. both

clinton's wanted to make sure i got to go. they had personal touches. >> president bush, i love the guy. he was a wonderful person to work for. he was demanding but very appreciative. i never saw him get mad at anyone. i never saw him condescend anyone. he was a decent fellow. if i had never met the man i would still feel i had a sense of the person he was. he is an easy person to read. his feelings go directly to his expression on his face. happy, sad, annoyed, bored, irritated. i always described him -- people thought he was impatient. he's not an impatient man.

he is patient. on many occasions i've watched him. if people repeated themselves he would not be patient. he would say you're losing altitude or something like that. he was considerate. he had a great memory. he knew everybody's name. he would call you by name. if he saw you on a saturday and we had many unexpected events that required quickly produced speeches, he would think you for coming in on a saturday or sunday. it was your job but he was considerate in that way. he was also a very serious editor of his speeches. line by line. he could be a speech once,

throw it on his desk, look up at the ceiling and recite that speech in outline form. that was only on one reading. he had a good sense on how things were structured. he could find the one or two paragraphs on the speech that were out of place. he called me really early one morning and as i recall it, i was sitting at my desk. i was staring down into a cup of coffee and my phone rang. the window says potus. i said, yes sir. we had a speech coming up that morning. he was leaving in about an hour. he said i had a few changes. the speech was a tough one that had one part and another part that had to be said that they but did not fit. in the middle of it the president says,

what's this pair -- paragraph four -- for? he said they are just words. he said take it out. he would spot those things. vice president cheney was not a big editor. he liked the speech or not. he would say i'm not a speechwriter. he would write inserts. he had a beautiful hand and would write in this flawless handwriting without any cross outs. he had exactly what he wanted to say in this speech. he was less of a line editor. don't be wrong on a fact or piece of history. cheney will be on top of that.

he would make notations. he cared about his speeches. he called me one day, john got us into some trouble. i, o? the president is going to europe and he's going to speak. cheney said i have to stand up in his place. i have to speak for 10 minutes and be funny. he says, i don't do funny. i can't don't worry about it mr. vice president, we will write you a speech. i talked to him about it. dick cheney was a wonderful guy to work for. i enjoyed him very much. he was

very nice, considered to -- considered and thoughtful. >> i was called to his office. i walked in and he said he wrote a speech. he handed it to me. there was a fully written speech. dan quayle was a newspaper man for some years before he entered politics. he could write and he could write fast. when i worked for him and he had a newspaper

column he could write a huge column in half an hour. >> this president is no to go off script. he is known to go without a telecom -- phillip roth -- teleprompter. he speaks off the cuff. there's a demand -- there's a desire for authenticity. you see it in senate campaigns. it seems like there's of the man in -- a demand. how do you convince the public through the words you are writing that there is authenticity and you're not just another politician. because of twitter, the demand to have quick, rapid responses that are not packaged up perhaps in the way you guys did, are you concerned about it?

what would you say to individuals running to office, what is your recommendation? >> some of those times are not normal. if you go back to barack obama, the speeches made him. i still believe there is room for excellent speeches. what made him successful is there were beautiful speeches. they were authentic. he was able to bring himself, convey himself through beautiful work. that's where america -- he came across as authentic. i would still counsel a

candidate to go that route. you need to say real things. that's where you get in trouble. if you are saying beautiful things but saying nothing. trump would say real things but there's no substance. i don't know what it is. you can still find that. for the sake of comedy in the country let's think these things through and find a way to talk about them authentically . >> as an example of trump's union speech. it was a pretty good speech. >> they wrote it and he read

it. >> when he came out to give his first state of the union, i was so curious about what he was going to do. you see him campaigning and he would come out and stand in front of a crowd and reach in his jacket pocket and throw down some white paper with his own notes. he would give a speech. no one has run for president successfully doing this. no one. yet he did it. when he came out for that first speech to congress, i thought is he going to do that? is equal to reach in his pocket and throw something down. of course he did not. the most recent one -- this was his best thoughts put down in a polished way. as you were saying

, authenticity does not mean declining to share with people your best thoughts. i work with ceos and i remember one ceo said, i'm not good at giving speeches. i you can be. you're good at everything else. it's not some mystery. people just don't want to do it. it is something that a person who is intelligent and has a point to make can do and can get better at. one of the elements will always be getting your best thoughts down in writing just to prepare. just like you prepare for anything else in life.

>> mac speechwriters can help you find your authentic voice. they are listening to you on what you want to say. maybe doing some research on you. as you said, we capture their voice. you don't need to write it yourself as a principal as long as you find people who help you say what you mean but better. >> i worked for senator dole in the 96 campaign. i traveled across the country with him. at one point -- was writing speeches on the airplane. during the campaign at one point headquarters would get in touch with me. we have a policy address.

it was not written by anyone on staff. they had this policy address that we want the senator to deliver. it is important. they told me this because it was my job as a speech writer to present this to the senator and tell him it was important that he delivered the speech. i did. i gave it to him. i said they want you to do this speech this week and it's important. he looks at it and makes no commitment to meet about what his intentions are. he looks at it and i thought, he will let me know what he thinks. he did not. i get another call from headquarters a day later about when he will get the speech. i said i don't think there will be any speech. it is important. you talk to him and tell him

it's important. i found my opportune moment to say, this speech is pretty important and the way to get it on the calendar. we need to make edits or whatever i can get to work on those. dole looked at me and said nothing. i , you never want to see this again do you? he shakes his head. i took it and gave the bad news to headquarters. >> we have time for questions. >> this is a question for john mcconnell. you mentioned the difference between an election and campaign and working for someone who is president, how

would you just english between those? >> it's in the example that i gave. i can do this as president, i intend to do this as president, i promise to do this as president. as a speech writer learns when you're ready for the president you are saying, i am doing this. i am happy to tell you i've just done this. it's no longer the aspirations of a presidential candidate. now if the actions of a president. >> these are busy times so thank you for talking to us. since you both have written for various people -- did you find

it difficult -- hillary and bill have a similar tone to how they speak. dan quayle and dick cheney appear almost different of the words they use and how they present their arguments. was it difficult for you to find that tone? how did you find that tone with having to deal with various people and politicians? >> you really have to pay attention and learn and ask questions. george w. bush, dick cheney, bob dole, dan quayle are very different in their styles. they all are comfortable

speaking in public if you are comfortable speaking in public, you can read a speech that is decently written that follows the basic elements. one main element is the sentences need to be short. it's the spoken word. it's a little bit different. in some ways very different from other types of writing. you have to read it out loud. you have to be careful that things don't rhyme or maybe an alliteration that's not intended or other strip -- structural distractions that would hit the ear differently from how you would expect it. the main point of variation among the people i've written speeches for is how they get into a speech. what that first page is like. how they bond with the audience

and how they get comfortable. president bush like to do extensive acknowledgment. so extensive we would not right these things. they would be gathered up -- a would be -- it would be everybody. >> we had acknowledgment pages. we had to list them. >> vice president quayle remember -- i remembered he like to get right into his message. bob dole, if you wrote him quality jokes he would tell jokes for five minutes. bob dole like people.

he was in politics after he got out of the army. he had a good sense of humor. he made up a lot of jokes on his own. he liked to do that kind of thing and he was good at it. the main point of variation is, text is written as the spoken word. it doesn't have any corks that would be unique to one person or another. the important thing is, how will he get into the speech and what's gonna be comfortable. >> related to that, i work for bill and hillary. they are excellent speakers. they don't really need speechwriters. your value added

is finding that nugget or the story that can help them get into the speech. finding the historical antidote for frame whatever policy they are proposing. finding the historical nugget or the real person connection or biographical story, americans love biography. it's a great way to connect with an audience. it's finding those factoids and anecdotes that will help them launch a speech and personalize a speech. you do that prep for them. you do the tailoring for the audience. >> that's where you're researchers can help.

>> it is a bit of a struggle. sometimes there's nothing here. that's something they cannot do on their own because they don't have time. >> for example, the writers are so busy and there so many plates. if your researcher comes in and tells you the president is speaking in front of a huge statue, you are happy to learn that in advance. you don't want to read it afterward. >> you mentioned having different policy teams and research teams aiding you with the speeches. to what extent are you performing personal research and how did you come across

fine-tuning those research skills? >> mac it depends on how much time you have and how big a staff you have. on a campaign you are on your own. at the white house you have lots of interns. you have to figure out how to get the most out of them. what was the other question? to serve your principal well you should know their biography. you need to internalize this person so you can channel them.

that's how you get the voice out. i was working before google.