echo steve's praise of this group. it is amazing to me that someone we know relatively little about has had such a major impact over four centuries, that people are still talking about this, that we are still talking about this, and we will continue to talk about this, after we have a 10-minute break. we will reset the stage, bringing our nextel ballot and continue the next part of our conversation. agree, she was an ambassador of cross-cultural? [laughter] [applause] >> thank you. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2019] >> next, from a symposium titled

"pocahontas: her life, legend, and legacy" a discussion on pocahontas and christianity. participating were rev. carol gallagher, the first american indian female bishop in the episcopal church, and rev. chris stone, who for many years was rector at st george's church in gravesend, england, where -- according to legend -- pocahontas is buried. the moderator was chief anne richardson of the rappahannock tribe. this is 40 minutes. it was interesting of all the questions that were asked of the first panel, there were a number of people interested in the marriage and the kidnapping. nobody wanted to tackle the religion question. so -- and i guess that's typical of virginia a, right? we don't talk about politics or -- i guess that's

typical of virginia hospitality, right? we don't talk about politics or religion in mixed company. i am pleased the session will be moderated by chief and richardson. chief richardson is the chief of the rappahannock tribe. 1988.s elected in in 1989, she helped organize the united indians of virginia. in 1990 one, she became the executive director of a consortium of virginia tribes formed to advocate for higher education programs for native americans. her tocauliffe appointed serve on his diversity, equity, commission inclusion in 2017. i'm pleased to introduce chief richardson, who will introduce our two panelists -- one of whom

traveled a continent to be here today -- oh, not anymore. she recently moved. i don't know, traveled down by down i 90 to be with us today? the other who traveled across an ocean to be with us. [applause] evening.hardson: good i am happy to be with you today to talk about this very important subject, pocahontas. told. helen rountree has us, we really need a timesheet to -- time machine to know the truth. but we can look at the records and some perspectives from both sides of the pond. i have with me assistant bishop carol gallagher from the cherokee nation and a native christianreligious,

leader. and to my right, the reverend chris stone, who is retired now from his position at gravesend church, and i consider him an life. on pocahontas's we will get both sides, perspectives of her faith and a religion. i would like to start with you first, carol, if you don't mind. rev. gallagher: no. chief richardson: i'm very curious about this question i am going to ask you. how do you, as a native american christian leader feel that was able to reconcile what you know of your traditional beliefs with christianity? rev. gallagher: thank you. i think one of the issues for , weof us as native people

have to deal with culture and whatever we do. in the episcopal church -- and -- we are big me anglophiles. we are often more english than the english are. [laughter] hunggallagher: we get very up on doing things in the right order and those kinds of things. at the same time, the applicable church, which is actually part of the anglican -- the episcopal church, which is actually part of the anglican communion, is much more of a democratic process than the church in england is because we were going to be american and those kinds of things. so, for me, i am dealing with multiple cultures and languages just to be in the church. at the same time, my people have for 7, 8, 9ans

generations minimally. the people in virginia have been members of the church of one sort or another for many, many generations. it has become part of our culture. did not have permission to a culture rate -- it, and often we did it on the sly, but often we do not have any record of what said, no written record, but we can speculate sly, she did a lot of things that helped her get through the day in her spiritual life. chief richardson: ok. so, i am just going to drill you down just a little bit. don't get nervous.

[laughter] so, i'mchardson: looking at my own experience with christianity, and like you said, for generations, we have been indoctrinated into the christian faith. but do you agree that when you have a belief in a great creator , no matter what his name was called, and you believe there is the supreme being that is taking care of you and protecting you , do thinking for you it was a big switch for her? because the christian faith was the same way. so, do you think that was a strain for her to get to that place or do you think it was easy for her to get to that place? rev. gallagher: i imagine somewhere down the metal. and here her curiosity

imprisonment required her to get to that place, and to survive, she was going to have to learn .ow to function think she found parallels in many different places. yes, we have a supreme career. songsure that there are she heard that sounded much like she heard as a child. she may have read things in the scripture that resonated with her and probably clung to those places that helped her understand what she was being taught and what her baptism meant. i'm in, the ritual of water and those kinds of things would have been very familiar to her.

-- i mean, the ritual of water and those kinds of things would have been very familiar to you. many tribes have a ritual of cleansing in the early spring. she would be able to turn it into something she understood. getting inside of her head as to how she would really deal with all that, i don't know. because there are some accounts, ancient accounts of our native people encountering the english first, and among the cherokees, we have records that talk about how the english smelled, which was really nasty, by the way. [laughter] rev. gallagher: because we -- [laughter] rev. gallagher: we braved all the time. the climate was such that we more regularly and that was a habit and we were surprised by people who may be bathed a couple times a year.

i think there were things like that that were extremely hard for her. does roth -- at least for me -- kinds of things are, at least for me, sounds and smells are more jarring than the words being said, the ideas or concepts. chief richardson: i agree with that. she was forced to learn this stuff, but as she begun to learn its, it resonated with the whole ritual cleansing and that was all very good. any other comments you want to make? rev. gallagher: we don't have any evidence of what the tribal

structure was for that moments because -- for that moment, because they were riding down all of the information. more than likely our tribesmen, the cherokees were not that far south from here. matrilineal and matriarchal. so, a lot more encouragement of learning many things. there was a lot of separation. i remember a native woman author being questioned by a boy scout leader, what should we do with these young boys? they were nine and 10. what should we do to prepare ?hem to go out in the woods she said, well, then take their mothers. [laughter] rev. gallagher: that is what

native people would have done. the women had a huge responsibility for training of the young children, but it was also the encouragement of -- i real we have the sense of education, with hands-on learning, the women were very it seems and sometimes like backroom politics, but she would have been sitting with the older women and learning the theys from them of how function, how to keep the guys on the straight and narrow and all of that. [laughter] think manyher: so, i of our folks, many of our experiences have been, we are fascinated -- it's not just men.e women, but native the role of ambassador would not be something that necessarily would be foreign to her, but that would be something that was

part of who she was. curious. she was not discouraged from curiosity. european women in certain situations would have had to not present curious or would have had to have stayed behind closed doors with those kinds of things. chief richardson: thank you. that was good. any other comments you would like to make on that? one of theher: things that i think is important to talk about with all of you, the history of the charter from jamestown, it is in there talking about bringing the gospel to the savages suffering the darkness. but that's only one paragraph, while the rest of it talks about land, would, those kinds of things. so, the problem with our is that this is

something that was very movement towith the jamestown, ok? basically the resources were limited where they were coming from. it seems like there was an unlimited set of resources. felt were many who whatever they could take was theirs to be had. one thing that happens to she becomess that something to be had. orther it is the church disney or the wonderful ways we imagine her singing and dancing with the birds in the woods. have this sense it is ok for us to capture somebody

else and take on their understanding of the world and pretty it up if it does not match with our sense of things. that is one of the things that comes with the settlement of jamestown, this understanding we will make people in our image or make this land in our image and all those things. true, and it has an impossible situation because you don't have anybody's first-person statements about what's going on within. we see it as smith begins to tell his story later on. it is already embellished and adorable and something everybody wants to talk about. i want to share a story. when i was serving in southern virginia, i got a call at my office in petersburg. the woman on the phone -- misys -- myid there is a lady

assistant said there is a lady don't want to do bless the movie. [laughter] rev. gallagher: ok. we bless a lot of things in the church. [laughter] rev. gallagher: i have never blessed a movie. i said i will talk to her. she got on the phone and explained the situation. her husband was the director of this movie being shot down along the james. they were having a terrible summer. she was an episcopalian and what i come and lesser movie. -- less her movie. it was "the new world." when i went home and told my daughter's, my three daughters we were going to -- i would bless "the new world" -- [laughter] rev. gallagher: they were so willing to go with me. they knew that colin farrell was going to be there. they wanted to go with me. i think that even in that

beautiful storytelling there is a lot that is really hard to imagine what it was like. we arrived on the set. we were observing the director telling these native kids what to do. point tolling them to the ships coming in. they were filming the ships arriving on the james. my daughter is looking insane they are pointing, the just doesn't see it because they were not putting their fingers up. indian people don't point that way. we don't tend to point at people or things. they are going like this. [laughter] rev. gallagher: we point with our lips. things weicroscopic don't understand about one another can often bring us to places of real disasters. even without any negative intentions, they can be

disruptive. chief richardson: i think one of the things i thought about when it was asked about this panel is you brought up the whole and the thing, the gold establishment of the formal government. then the christianity and the mission work. white men speak with forked tongues. you had people in the company that had a whole economic and propaganda going on. then you had people that had come with the intention of mission rising these people -- missionizing these people. it floundered from one thing to the other where they are blessing on one side and killing on the other. looking get that from a powhatan perspective, we did not separate our economic and our spirituality. economics was spirituality. spirituality was a never ending

we did. it must've been very foreign for her to see the speaking of one thing and the doing of something else. that was very foreign to us as well. is there anything you would like to add to that? one ofllagher: i think the things that always encourage people in this conversation is now nativee loved people. it is all of a sudden cool to be native. i am not picking on any of you. [laughter] rev. gallagher: but what folks had to live with, including the fact that native people in this country, indigenous people did not get the right to vote until after women got the right to vote in this country. you gottate of virginia

an education up to the eighth-grade. that is it. across this country our tribes do not have sovereignty until the late 1970's in many places. since recognitions just happened this year for tribes in virginia, it is -- we have to live with the mantle of both the burden and the history of what our folks had to do and live with three generations to survive -- three generations to survive and thrive. people are doing amazing things. we just elected two native women to congress. [laughter] -- [applause] but it has taken generations and generations of people surviving, living tooth and nail, praying, hanging on, and there is no disney movie about that.

there is no -- that is not romantic. it is faithful, good people who hung on and told their stories and continued to tell their stories until we of this generation could receive them to share those stories. pain anda terrible work that people did for our not only survival but thriving, and i include her in that because she was probably a pawn in many people's games. whether it was the church or government, her father, whatever. everything i have read is convoluted at best. because it is not coming from her. we do not know except we can say

she did her absolute best in the circumstances that must've been incredibly bizarre and awkward. chief richardson: i agree. she was a pawn in many different venues. i often wonder how she must have felt being used that way because i'm sure she knew it. and what you had to navigate through all of that. rev. gallagher: a few years back i got a call from my sister. with the ford foundation and other places on native rights and issues. she called the up and said to me, i don't know what to do. i was supposed to go to this gala and said do i go fancy or native? [laughter] rev. gallagher: i knew exactly what she was talking about because the expectation on us is we present a certain way so we

facility to the people we are working with so we can get another step or half a step further. i just say that to say there is a lot of wonderful people out in this state working to further people who will not know about the work they had done. chief richardson: right, right. generational work. like the recognition. generations of people worked on that. rev. gallagher: exactly. chief richardson: i feel like he probably experienced some of that herself. we don't know about her grandparents. all we know is powhatan inherited five tribes. before that there was a chiefdom and she was an inheritor of that chiefdom, whether she was just learning and absorbing the knowledge of all of that or walking in the authority of that. we don't know. she certainly seemed to appear to have her own authority. in the things that she did.

rev. gallagher: there have been generational suffering to get to where we are as native people. disney doesdson: not put movies out about that. i think they have done a disservice to her legacy that they have distorted the truth about her. the truth would've been much better for the story. theyey had not done that, probably would've stole a lot more of their film. they thought to romanticize this syndicate something that wasn't. in doing so they distorted her character for millions and millions of people around the world. i think it is really bad. i am glad we are doing this so we can set the record straight, even though there is not a lot of record to set straight. chris? [laughter]

because he ison: english, he has requested the lectern for his -- chris: really standing. i spent most of yesterday sitting. any excuse to stand has to be a good one. it is a great privilege to be invited to share the platform with so many distinguished speakers this afternoon. i bring you greetings from the george's att. gravesend. in thinking about this question of pocahontas and faith, i came across an article, a chapter in a book published in 2011. in the chapter entitled "evidence of religion in 17th-century virginia," the author highlights two mistakes, his word, that earlier authors made about interpreting

pocahontas. he says the first was to assume or to write as if they believed the residence of england who migrated to virginia did not have any religious beliefs or that they forget and left them behind on the dock. the second mistake is to ignore the critical importance of being this reformation or 17th-century english men and women wherever they lived. i want to begin with pocahontas and her final journey. it was to have been a return voyage from london to her native land. it was cut short by her illness and death at gravesend in march of 1617. samuel parker, ending was cleared wrote, "at her return to virginia pocahontas came to grave,nd, to her and and having giving great demonstration of her christian

sincerity as the first proofs of virginia conversion, leaving here a goodly memory and the hopes of a resurrection, her soul aspiring to see and enjoy pleasantly -- presently in heaven which he had joy to hear and believe of her beloved savior." he able to report pocahontas' christian faith in such terms? it is important to remember she had been in london for some months. she had met a range of establishment figures, including the royal family, the bishop of london, and english society had the opportunity to talk to her face-to-face. an ambassador for her people, a christian, and part of virginia county's attempts to recruit investors for settlers. the reformation, and in the english reformation the structure and doctrine of the church of england was a matter of fierce, even violent disputes

for generations and certainly into the reign of king james. mission has always been the lifeblood of the christian faith. virginia was nothing new in the detracted mission. writes,-- the bishop "it was the opening of the sea routes to the east into the further west early in the 16th century which gave a new impetus to mission." "thentinues, counterreformation has to be viewed as a time of great vitality were roman catholic missionary work is concerned. nearly every portuguese and spanish expedition carried his own clergy." he singles out the early jesuit missionaries. "it is all the more sad therefore to have to recall that the reformation and the reformed churches seem to have had little awareness of the need for world mission." thomas harriet, sir walter

raleigh's assistant and a member 585 expedition to roanoke island, wrote about his time with native americans. "it will be far from the truth. there is hope that maybe the easier and sooner reform." during his stay, harriet mentions he was able to speak as he journeyed from town to town on the concept of the vital, including the truth doctrine of salvation through christ. 1607, the voice that established the colony at jamestown. sailederend robert hunt and served in the colony from the earliest days of the makeshift church that gave way to the first dedicated building. captain john smith recalled the place of worship in the life of jamestown with prayer morning and evening. two sermons on a sunday in holy

communion every three months. ministerial colleagues followed. where were the spaniards -- where the spaniards had focused their priest for the efforts of mission, the english to their own parish system as their model with both sellers and virgin -- and virginia and indians as parishioners. the mission to virginia was based very much around the call of abraham to leave his home and to go to the land of canaan. when you get to canaan, what do you do when you get there? that was what the issue facing the english was. the story of pocahontas saving john smith has been questioned wasn'tmes, but if true, more than a spontaneous and instinctive act of compassion? was it perhaps part of the teaching that pocahontas preceded her family and her social circle? and in pocahontas' interaction

with the people of the colony, what would she have learned from them and they from her? was their christian faith and her faith in conversation? we have to understand the christian men and women of the 17th-century england in their own terms and not to the lens of our worldview. edward pond reminds us they lived in a dangerous and mysterious world, permeated with a sense of cosmic vulnerability. their god was a certainty in an uncertain and transitory universe. the starting point for the understanding of the world was god's providence. these people were of a different time from ours. pocahontas was captured and held captive for ransom by the english and 1613. -- in 1613.

worddable would've been a to describe him. a strict disciplinarian bringing order and purpose to sometimes unruly settlers, drawn as they were from ranks and conditions. under his governorship, christian worship was central to the life of the community. prayer was compulsory. services were regular. and will betide anyone who showed -- shirked attendance. the reverend was alexander whitaker, and understanding priest to came to be known as the apostle to the indians. someone who took his duties seriously, pleading worship, offering support, conducting the officers, engaging with local tribes, teaching the faith and categorizing. the catechism, the instruction to be learned by every child as the prayer book puts it was part of that prayer book. it was revised in 1604 and would

have been a useful start for mr. whitaker's conversations and discussions with pocahontas. though not the only resource available to him. there was the bible, the geneva bible, and then the authorized version of 1611. the catechism was a list of questions and answers concerning the beliefs of the christian church as held by the church of england. the intention was to discourage in a form faith, and thus schooled, pocahontas was baptized. how willingly is another point the yearsion in 1614, for marriage to john rolfe. he wrote to sir thomas davis, and upright christian man who recognized the faith in his bride. the first of her people to convert to christianity. the fact recorded by ralph hamer

in his 1614 through discourse. pocahontas learned not only about the things of christian faith during captivity, she had much to absorb concerning this culture, food, dress and the like. also the times in which she would help the negotiations between english and her own people. there were a fewer tensions between the native americans and the english at this time. just as the english have their own story of god who was with them in their daily lives, so pocahontas would have been familiar with the religious teachings and practices of her own community. we heard from bishop carroll something of that, and chief and remarked-- chief anne model concepts would have been unfamiliar to pocahontas. saidw there's more to be than that, particularly in the light of new investigations and discoveries opening us more

fully to the native american experience in those years of the other colonies. i want to turn as a come to the close of the sociology and religion. grace davie identifies three strands of the christian life. they are believing, belonging, and behaving. the hallmark of the christian faith is someone who believes in jesus christ as lord and savior, who belongs to the christian group, often the local church, and who behaves in a way which accords to the teaching of the faith. cannot be set of pocahontas? can that be said of her during her stay in london? for me, as expressed in the servicing at grades in last year commemorating 400 years since her death, for legacy lies in her commitment to the cause of peace and reconciliation. not that there have not been differences of opinion sense. there have been diversions.

interpretations of her dealings with the settlers and divergences about the way her story has come down to us, so often romanticized and so often told from one point of view. we were20 2006, speaking at lunch of how members of different tribes and together to talk at st. george's and gravesend. it was a time of healing. teaching.ifficult there are christian groups dedicated to reconciliation and peace around the world. one of the, the community of the cross and nails is based in coventry, england. its work is centered on three strands. healing the wounds of the past, living with difference and celebrating diversity, and building a culture of peace. working together towards such games could be a fitting -- such aimes to be a fitting legacy.

for the christian god, god is god. my experience is a matter much we might try to keep god in a box, he will always surprised us by what he does. yesterday, today, and tomorrow. thank you. [applause] chief richardson: i was struck by the three things you talked about. the hallmarks of the christian faith. the belief in something. chris: believing, belonging to haiti. -- and to hating. chief richardson: that is indicative of tribal culture. chris: it was written in the christian context. chief richardson: when we were discussing how she may have reconciled her own faith and her

own beliefs with the christian faith, it seems like she would have belonged and would have had no problem with that. her behavior would have been the honor codes that were written and practice among her people. so, the whole hallmark of the christian faith was embedded into the cultural traditions of her people. i think it would have probably been an easy switch for her. peacemaker, obviously, and she did permeate peace. there were people who talked about her strong christian faith. -- that was noted when she met with king james, was it not? that her faith was so strong that they decided they would

commission a bible for her to bring back to her people. i was so impressed by that when i was there and found that out. something we are speculating about. there were people who made this comment and they were real to them and heartfelt and when they spoke. -- in the way they spoke. she was a strong woman, a peacemaker and did believe in a god. she was a peacemaker because of that. i think she embraced faith and religion because it was something she already possessed. although his name was different than her name of her god, she recognized him because she had a close relationship with him. are there any questions from the audience? say that -- i would

i don't know if they thought they needed to blessings. [laughter] i have the same thought when they went out into the blessing. [laughter] it was doubly blessed. we did a double intercession. chief richardson: they needed it, sir. [laughter] >> i have a quick question. was there any significance behind the choice of the name rebecca? i think herdson: would probably be the best person to answer that. chris: rebecca was the mother of jacob and esau. there are some things about the life of rebecca that were not that savory really because she did collude with jacob in depriving esau of his birthright. the answer is i don't know, for what i can say is in st.

george's church in 1914, two stained-glass windows went in. date of of the colonial virginia. one was dedicated to rebecca. the other was dedicated to ruth. i think that choice was a deliberate one. ruth was a woman who accompanied her mother-in-law from her own land back to her mother-in-law's native land with those amazing words, your god will be my god and your people will be my people. chief richardson: thank you, chris. that was really powerful. thank you carol. both of you have been very wonderful this afternoon. we appreciate you taking the time to be with us. thank you all for listening. this is the end of the session. [applause]