p.m. and 10:00 p.m. eastern on "american artifacts," only on american history tv. >> next, from a symposium titled "pocahontas: her life, legend, and legacy," a discussion on pocahontas and christianity. taking part were rev. carol gallagher, the first american indian female bishop in the episcopal church, and rev. chris stone, who for many years was rector at st george's church in gravesend, england, where -- according to legend -- pocahontas is buried. the moderator was chief anne richardson of the rappahannock tribe. this is 40 minutes. >> i think it was interesting of all the questions that were asked of the first panel, there were a number of people interested in the marriage and the kidnapping. nobody wanted to tackle the religion question. [laughter] i guess that's typical of a

virginia hospitality right? , we don't talk about politics religion -- politics or religion in mixed company. will talk about religion in the pocahontas narrative. i am pleased the session will be annrated by chief richardson. chief richardson is the chief of the rappahannock tribe. she was elected in 1988. in 1989, she helped organize the united indians of virginia. it was established as an intertribal organization represented by all eight tribal chiefs in virginia. in 1991, she became the executive director of a consortium of virginia tribes formed to advocate for higher education programs for native americans. terry mcauliffe appointed her to serve on his diversity, equity, and inclusion commission in 2017. please welcome chief richardson,

who will introduce our two , one of whom traveled nearly a continent to be here today -- oh, not anymore. she recently moved from montana to massachusetts. [laughter] > i don't know, traveled down i-95 to be with us today? the other traveled across an ocean to be with us. [applause] chief richardson: good evening. nice to be with you this evening to talk about this very important subject about pocahontas. so much of her life and legacy has been a mystery, and as dr. helen rountree has told us, we machine to find out the truth of what went on. but we can look at what we know recorded in records, and some perspectives from both sides of the pond.

i have with me assistant bishop carol gallagher from the cherokee nation and a native american, religious, christian leader. and to my right, the reverend chris stone, who is retired now from his position at gravesend church, and i consider him an expert on pocahontas's life. we will get both sides of the perspective of her faith and religion. i would like to start with you first, carol, if you don't mind. rev. gallagher: no. chief richardson: i'm very curious about this question i am going to ask you. how do you, as a native american christian leader feel that pocahontas was able to reconcile what you know of your traditional beliefs with christianity? rev. gallagher: thank you. i think one of the issues for

all of us as native people, we went -- we have to do with culture in whatever we do. in the episcopal church -- and chris, forgive me -- we are big anglophiles. we are often more english than the english are. [laughter] rev. gallagher: we get very hung up on doing things in the right order and those kinds of things. at the same time, the episcopal church, which is actually part of the anglican communion, separated from the church of england and is much more of a democratic process than the church in england is because we were going to be american and those kinds of things. so, for me, i am dealing with multiple cultures and languages just to be in the church.

at the same time, my people have been christians for 7, 8, 9 generations minimally. many of the people here in virginia have been members of the church of one sort or another for many, many generations. it has become part of our culture. although we did not have permission to acculturate it, and often we did it on the sly, lot --s is there is a and i am guessing, because as helen told us, we don't have any written record of pocahontas writing about who she was in the time machine would be a good thing -- but we can speculate that on the sly, she did a lot of things that helped her get through the day in her spiritual life.

chief richardson: ok. so, i am just going to drill you down just a little bit. don't get nervous. [laughter] chief richardson: so, i'm looking at my own experience with christianity, and like you said, for generations, we have been indoctrinated into the christian faith. but do you agree that when you have a belief in a great creator, no matter what his name was called, and you believe there is the supreme being that is taking care of you and protecting you and providing for you, do think it was a big switch for her? because the christian faith was the same way. so, do you think that was a strain for her to get to that

place or do you think it was easy for her to get to that place? rev. gallagher: i imagine somewhere down the middle. i imagine her curiosity and her imprisonment required her to get to that place, and to survive, she was going to have to learn how to function. -- function in a conversation that was not necessarily hers. i think she found parallels in many different places. yes, we have a supreme career. i am sure that there are songs she heard that sounded much like --gs she would have saying sang as a child. she may have read things in the scripture that resonated with her and probably clung to those places that helped her understand what she was being

taught and what her baptism meant. the ritual of water and those kinds of things would have been very familiar to her. many of our tribes have seasonal cleansings we often do in the early spring. she would've been something was able to turn into something she understood. getting inside of her head as to how she would really deal with all of it, i don't know. because there are some accounts, some ancient accounts of our native people encountering the english first, and among the cherokees, we have records that talk about how the english smelled, which was really nasty, by the way. [laughter] rev. gallagher: because we -- [laughter] rev. gallagher: we bathed all the time. the climate was such that we

could bathe more regularly and that was a habit and we were surprised by pb who may be -- surprised by people who may be bathed a couple times a year. i think there were things like that that were extremely hard for her. those things are often -- at least for me -- sounds -- those kinds of things are, at least for me, sounds and smells are more jarring than the words being said, the ideas or concepts. chief richardson: i agree with that. i think perhaps she was forced to learn this stuff, but as she began to learn it, i think so her,of it resonated with and all that -- the ritual cleansing and all of that you spoke about. any other comments you want to make? what you think about her as a

native american and her traditional beliefs. rev. gallagher: we don't have any evidence of what the tribal structure was like at that moment, because they were not writing down -- all of the information we got is from men. more than likely our tribesmen, the cherokees were not that far south from here. matrilineal and matriarchal. so there was a lot more encouragement of young girls learning many things. there was a lot of separation. i remember a native woman author being questioned by a boy scout leader, what should we do with these young boys? they were nine and 10. what should we do to prepare them to go out in the woods?

she said, well, then take their mothers. [laughter] rev. gallagher: that is what native people would have done. the women had a huge responsibility for training up the young children, but it was also the encouragement of -- i think we all have come up with the sense of real education, whether it is by listening or hands-on learning, the women were very involved, and sometimes it seems like backroom politics, but she would have been sitting with the older women and learning the things from them of how they function, how to keep the guys on the straight and narrow and all of that. [laughter] rev. gallagher: so, i think many of our folks, many of my experiences have been, we are fascinated -- it's not just native women, but native men.

with other cultures in other languages and how people see the world. so the role of ambassador would not be something that necessarily would be foreign to her, but something that was part of who she was. she was curious. she was not discouraged from curiosity. european women in certain situations would have had to not present curious or would have had to stay behind closed doors with those kinds of things. chief richardson: thank you. that was good. anymore comments you would like to make on that? rev. gallagher: one of the things that i think is important to talk about with all of you, the history of the charter from jamestown. e talking about bringing the light of the gospel to the savages suffering the darkness. but that's only one paragraph, while the rest of it talks about

, those kinds of things. so, the problem with our understanding of and separation of religion and commerce is that this is something that was very intertwined with the settling and the movement to jamestown, ok? the resources were limited, where they were coming from, and it seemed like there was an unlimited set of resources. there were many who felt that whatever they could take was to be had. i think one of the things that happens to pocahontas is that she also becomes something to be had. whether it is the church or disney or the wonderful ways we imagine her singing and dancing

with the birds in the woods. we really have this sense it is ok for us to capture somebody else and take on their understanding of the world and pretty it up if it does not match with our sense of things. so i think that is one of the things that comes with the settlement of jamestown, this understanding we will make people in our image or make this land in our image and all those things. none of that is true, and it has made an impossible situation because you don't have anybody's first-person statements about --t is truly going on within we see it as smith begins to tell his story later on. it is already embellished and adorable and something everybody wants to talk about. i want to share a story. when i was serving in southern

virginia, i got a call at my office in petersburg. the woman on the phone, my assistant came to me and said, there is a lady on the phone and i'm not sure what you want to do with this, that she wants you to bless a movie. [laughter] rev. gallagher: ok. we bless a lot of things in the church. [laughter] rev. gallagher: i had never blessed a movie. i said i will talk to her. she got on the phone and explained the situation. her husband was the director of this movie being shot down along the james. they were having a terrible summer. she was an episcopalian and would i come and bless her movie. it turned out it was "the new world." when i went home and told my daughters, my three daughters, that i was going to go bless "the new world" -- [laughter]

rev. gallagher: they were so willing to go with me. i did not know who was in the movie but they knew that colin farrell was going to be there. [laughter] rev. gallagher: they wanted to go with me. i think that even in that beautiful storytelling, there is a lot that is really hard to imagine what it was like. we arrived on the set. we were observing the director , telling these native kids what to do. he was telling them to point to the ships coming in. they were filming the ships arriving on the james. my daughter is looking and saying they are pointing, he it, because see they were not putting their fingers up. indian people don't point that way. we don't tend to point at people or things. they are going like this. [laughter] rev. gallagher: we point with our lips. even the microscopic things we don't understand about one

another can often bring us to places of real disasters. even without any negative intentions, they can be disruptive. chief richardson: i think one of the things i thought about when panel,sked to do this you brought up the whole economic thing, the gold and the establishment of the formal government. then the christianity and the mission work. it was like white men speak with forked tongues. you had people in that company that had a whole economic and propaganda going on. then you had people that had come with the intention of missionizing these people. you see it floundered from one thing to the other where they are blessing on one side and killing on the other. looking at that from a powhatan

perspective, we did not separate our economics and our spirituality. economics was spirituality. spirituality was in everything we did. it must've been very foreign for her to see the speaking of one thing and the doing of something else. that was very foreign to us as well. is there anything you would like to add to that? before i switch over to chris. rev. gallagher: i think one of the things i always encourage people in this conversation is that we have loved now native people. it is all of a sudden cool to be native. i am not picking on any of you. [laughter] rev. gallagher: but what folks had to live with, including the fact that native people in this

country, indigenous people did not get the right to vote until after women got the right to vote in this country. in the state of virginia, you got an education up to the eighth-grade. that is it. across this country, our tribes do not have sovereignty until the late 1970's in many places. since recognitions just happened this year for tribes in virginia, it is -- we have to live with the mantle of both the burden of and the history of what our folks had to do and live with through generations to survive and thrive. people are doing amazing things. native people are doing amazing things. we just elected two native women to congress. [applause] rev. gallagher: but it has taken

generations and generations of people surviving, living tooth and nail, praying, hanging on, and there is no disney movie about that. that is not romantic. it is faithful, good people who hung on and told their stories and continued to tell their stories until we of this generation could receive them to -- them and tell those stories and share those stories. there is a terrible pain and work that people did for our not only survival but thriving, and i include her in that because she was probably a pawn in many people's games. let's just put it that way. whether it was the church or government, her father, whatever.

everything i have read is convoluted at best. because it is not coming from her. we do not know except we can say she did her absolute best in the circumstances that must've been incredibly bizarre and awkward. chief richardson: i agree. she was used as a pawn in many different venues. i often wonder how she must have felt being used that way because i'm sure she knew it. but she had to navigate through all of that. rev. gallagher: a few years back i got a call from my sister. my sister has worked with the ford foundation and other places on native rights and issues. she called me up once and said to me, i don't know what to do. i'm supposed to go to this gala

and said do i go fancy or native? [laughter] rev. gallagher: i knew exactly what she was talking about because the expectation on us is we present a certain way so we expectations of the people we are working with so we can get another step or half a step further. that there are a lot of wonderful people out there in this state working to further people who will not know about the work they had done. chief richardson: right, right. generational work. like the recognition. generations of people worked on that. rev. gallagher: exactly. chief richardson: i feel like he -- she probably experienced some of that herself. of course, we don't know about her grandparents. all we know is powhatan inherited five tribes. before that, there was a chiefdom and she was an inheritor of that chiefdom, whether she was just learning and absorbing the knowledge of

all of that or walking in the authority of that. we don't know. she certainly seemed to appear to have her own authority in the things that she did. chief richardson: there have been generational suffering to get to where we are as native people. disney does not put movies out about that. i think they have done a disservice to her legacy that they have distorted the truth about her. the truth would've been much better for the story. if they had not done that, they probably would have sold a lot more of their film. they thought to romanticize this

into something that wasn't. in doing so they distorted her character for millions and millions of people around the world. i think it is really bad. i am glad we are doing this so we can set the record straight, even though there is not a lot of record to set straight. [laughter] ok chris?ardson: , [laughter] chief richardson: because he is english, you know he is proper, so he has requested the lectern for his -- rev. stone: really standing. i spent most of yesterday sitting. any excuse to stand has to be a good one. it is a great privilege to be invited to share the platform with so many distinguished speakers this afternoon. i bring you greetings from the people at st. george's at gravesend. in thinking about this question of pocahontas and faith, i came across an article, a chapter in a book published in 2011. in the chapter entitled "evidence of religion in

17th-century virginia," the author highlights two mistakes, his word, that earlier authors made about interpreting pocahontas. he says the first was to assume or to write as if they believed the residents of england who migrated to virginia did not have any religious beliefs or that they forget and left them behind on the dock. the second mistake is to ignore the critical importance of being -- importance of the english reformation or 17th-century english men and women wherever they lived. i want to begin with pocahontas and her final journey. it was to have been a return voyage from london to her native land. it was cut short by her illness and death at gravesend in march of 1617. english clericd

wrote, "at her return to virginia, pocahontas came to gravesend, to her and and grave, having giving great demonstration of her christian sincerity as the first proofs of virginia conversion, leaving here a goodly memory and the hopes of a resurrection, her soul aspiring to see and enjoy presently in heaven which he had joy to hear and believe of her beloved savior." how was he able to report pocahontas' christian faith in such terms? it is important to remember she had been in london for some months. she had met a range of establishment figures, including the royal family, the bishop of london, and english society had the opportunity to talk to her face-to-face. an ambassador for her people, a christian, and part of virginia

y's attempt to recruit investors and settlers. the reformation, and in the english reformation the structure and doctrine of the church of england was a matter of fierce, even violent disputes for generations and certainly into the reign of king james. mission has always been the lifeblood of the christian faith. virginia was nothing new in the detracted mission. the bishop writes, "it was the opening of the sea routes to the east into the further west early in the 16th century which gave a new impetus to mission." he continues, "the counterreformation has to be viewed as a time of great vitality where roman catholic missionary work is concerned. nearly every portuguese and spanish expedition carried his -- carried its own clergy." he singles out the early jesuit missionaries. "it is all the more sad , therefore, to have to record

that the reformation and the reformed churches seem to have had little awareness of the need for world mission." thomas harriet, sir walter raleigh's assistant and a member of the 1585 expedition to roanoke island, wrote about his encounters with native americans. have religion they already, although it will be far from the truth. there is hope that maybe the easier and sooner reform." during his stay, harriet mentions he was able to speak as he journeyed from town to town bible,e contents of the including the true doctrine of salvation through christ. 21607, the established colony at

jamestown. the reverend robert hunt sailed and served in the colony from the earliest days of the makeshift church that gave way to the first dedicated building. captain john smith recalled the place of worship in the life of jamestown with prayer morning and evening. two sermons on a sunday and holy communion every three months. ministerial colleagues followed. whereas the spaniards have focused their missionary priests at efforts of mission, the english had their own parish system as their model with both settlers and virginian indians as parishioners. the mission, as recorded, to virginia was based very much around the call of abraham to leave his home and to go to the land of canaan. but when you get to canaan, what do you do when you get there? that was what the issue facing the english was. the story of pocahontas saving john smith has been questioned

many times, but if true, was it more than a spontaneous and instinctive act of compassion? was it perhaps part of the teaching that pocahontas had received in her family and her social circle? and in pocahontas' interaction with the people of the colony, what would she have learned from them and they from her? would their christian faith and her faith been in conversation? we have to understand the christian men and women of the 17th-century england in their own terms and not through the lens of our worldview. that is so easy. edward pond reminds us they lived in a dangerous and mysterious world, permeated with a sense of cosmic vulnerability. their god was a certainty in an otherwise uncertain and transitory universe. the starting point for their understanding of the world was god's providence. these people were of a different time from ours.

pocahontas was captured and held captive for ransom by the english in 1613. as we have heard. sir thomas dale in charge of the settlement where she was taken, formidable would've been a word to describe him. a strict disciplinarian bringing order and purpose to sometimes unruly settlers, drawn as they were from a range of ranks and conditions. under his governorship, christian worship was central to the life of the community. prayer was compulsory. services were regular. and woe betide anyone who shirked attendance. the minister was the minister alexander whitaker, and priest as ig understand it, and came to be known as the apostle to the indians. someone who took his duties pleading worship,

offering support, conducting the officers, engaging with local tribes, teaching the faith and categorizing. the catechism, the instruction to be learned by every child as the prayer book puts it was part of that prayer book. it was revised in 1604 and would have been a useful start for mr. whitaker's conversations and discussions with pocahontas. though not the only resource available to him. there was the bible, the geneva bible, and then the authorized version of 1611. the catechism was a list of questions and answers concerning the beliefs of the christian church as held by the church of england. the intention was to discourage -- to encourage and informed faith, and thus schooled, pocahontas was baptized. how willingly is another point of discussion. was in 1614, the year for marriage to john rolfe. he wrote to sir thomas davis,

an upright christian man who recognized the flourishing of faith in his bride. the first of her people to convert to christianity. the fact recorded by ralph hamer in his 1614 true discourse. pocahontas learned not only about the things of christian faith during captivity, she had much to absorb concerning english culture, food, dress and the like. also the times in which she would help the negotiations between the english and her own people. there were a fewer tensions between the native americans and the english at this time. just as the english have their own story of god who was with them in their daily lives, so pocahontas would have been familiar with the religious teachings and practices of her own community. we heard from bishop carroll something of that, and chief

anne remarked that not all of the concepts of christianity would have been unfamiliar to pocahontas. i know there's more to be said than that, particularly in the light of new investigations and discoveries opening us more fully to the native american experience in those years of the other colonies. i want to turn as a come to the close of the sociology of religion. grace davie identifies three strands of the christian life. they are believing, belonging, and behaving. the hallmark of the christian faith is someone who believes in jesus christ as lord and savior, who belongs to the christian group, often the local church, and who behaves in a way which accords with the teaching of the faith. can that be said of pocahontas? can that be said of her during her stay in london? for me, as expressed in the vesend lastgrac

year commemorating 400 years since her death, for legacy lies in her commitment to the cause of peace and reconciliation. not that there have not been differences of opinion peered there have been divergence about how her story has come down to us, so often romanticized and so often told from one point of view. back in 2006, we were speaking at lunch of how members of different tribes came together to talk at st. george's in gravesend. anne's words, it was a time of healing. based on difficult teaching. there are christian groups dedicated to reconciliation and peace around the world. one of the, the community of the cross and nails, is based in coventry, england. its work is centered on three strands. healing the wounds of the past, living with difference and celebrating diversity, and building a culture of peace.

working together towards such aims could be a fitting legacy. i want to end by saying that for a christian, god is god. my experience is a matter much -- is no matter how much we might try to keep god in a box, he will always surprise us by what he does. yesterday, today, and tomorrow. thank you. [applause] chief richardson: i was struck by the three things you talked about. the hallmarks of the christian faith. the belief in something. rev. stone: believing, belonging and behaving. chief richardson: that is so indicative of tribal culture. rev. stone: indeed. i would not say it was

exclusively vision but it was written in the christian context. chief richardson: when we were discussing how she may have reconciled her own faith and her own beliefs with the christian faith, it seems like she would have belonged and would have had no problem with that. her behavior would have been the honor codes that were written and practiced among her people. so, the whole hallmark of the christian faith was embedded into the cultural traditions of her people. i think it would have probably been an easy switch for her. she was a peacemaker, obviously, and she did permeate peace. there were people who talked about her strong christian faith.

but she also -- that was noted when she met with king james, was it not? that her faith was so strong that they decided they would commission a bible for her to bring back to her people. i was so impressed by that when i was there and found that out. it is not just something we are speculating about. there were people who made this -- these comments and they were real to them and heartfelt in the way they spoke them. she was a strong woman, a peacemaker and did believe in a god. she was a peacemaker because of that. i think she embraced faith and religion because it was something she already possessed. although his name was different than her name of her god, she recognized him because she had a close relationship with him. are there any questions from the

audience? >> one thing i would say that -- i don't know if they thought they needed two blessings. [laughter] >> i have the same thought when they went out into the blessing. [laughter] >> it was doubly blessed. we did a double intercession. chief richardson: they needed it, sir. [laughter] >> i have a quick question. was there any significance behind the choice of the name rebecca? chief richardson: i think chris would probably be the best person to answer that. rev. stone: rebecca was the mother of jacob and esau. there are some things about the life of rebecca that were not

that savory really because she did collude with jacob in depriving esau of his birthright. the answer is i don't know, but what i can say is in st. george's church in 1914, two stained-glass windows went in. the gift of the colonial dames of virginia. one was dedicated to rebecca. the other was dedicated to ruth. i think that choice was a deliberate one. ruth was the woman who accompanied her mother-in-law from her own land back to her mother-in-law's native land with those amazing words, your god will be my god and your people will be my people. chief richardson: thank you, chris. that was really powerful. thank you, carol. both of you have been very wonderful this afternoon.

we appreciate you taking the time to be with us. thank you all for listening. this is the end of the session. [applause] >> interested in american history tv? visit our website, c-span.org/history. .ou can view our tv schedule by the always enthralled senate chamber itself. the walls themselves. if they could speak, what would they tell us? >> c-span's newest book "the senate is quote transport to into the senate wing of the

capital, revealing rich architectural details of the senate chamber, the ornate hallways, private workspaces and lavish meeting rooms. this keepsake is filled with beautiful color photos of the art in architecture that are in the senate space and offers information about this and its rich history. to order your high-quality paperback copy of "the senate," c-span.org/senatebook. >> this park is the oldest county park in the state of california. the land was set aside to preserve the oak trees that once dotted the landscape. today, it is home to a farm labor and agriculture museum. the chair later tells us about some of the different groups of people that have contributed to the agriculture industry here. >> my folks generally were from arkansas. dirt roads, dirt fme