at 5 p.m. eastern on cspan. and more from the 2020 president contest with democratic presidential candidate, the mayor of south bend, indiana. and live on cspan. washington journal continues. host: immigration policy analyst from the cato >> immigration policy analysts here to talk about e verify, and this is a topic that we get a lot of calls on. what is going on with e verify. some sort of deal over security. how does e verify come about? >> you need to backup to 1986

to understand where, by 1996 it impaired clear the requirement had no effect on illegal hiring in the united states. mainly because people could easily get a fake i.d. that would theoretically prove their authorization to work and employers could hire them with no consequence unless there was an audit and everyone was fired. they wouldn't be sanctioned because they followed the procedures in place. in 1996, congress had a choice. create a national i.d. card so that everyone would have to carry and they would have to go to the state department or the federal government in order to work in the united states. or they could create what amounts to a national i.d. registry that includes everyone in the united states who is

legally present in this country. and that's really the route that congress went. they created a pilot program that allowed employers to, is this information that was provided to me by my employees matches what you have in your records? and initially it was all done by telephone. and now it's done online. erverify is a web based portal that employers use to put in their information and the information of employees, and that's what the federal government has. these checks with done for all americans whether they be legal residents or u.s. citizens. and if there's a mismatch between what is in the federal government database and what's

been submitted by the employer, the system will issue a tentative non-confirmation. and you as an employee are supposed to be notified that you are not confirmed by the system. your employer is supposed to tell you that. and you have eight business days, a little less than two weeks to go in and check in with the social security administration or the department of homeland security and say i think i'm a legal resident. here's my identification and at that point they'll confirm you are not and the system will issue a final non-confirmation. if you don't challenge within eight days or you fail to prove that you're legal. >> we have a line for the employers who use the e verify system and we'd like to hear on how it works and what's been your experience with it.

democrats, republicans, and independents as well. you said an employer can call up. do they have to? >> it really depends. some employers in the united states are required to use e verify. and those are determined by what state they live in. arizona was the first state to mandate it for all employers. 20 states have some type of requirement for e verify use mainly for government contractors and government. 2009 by requiring that all federal contractors for a contract with the federal government. and that really jump started the program. before 2008, virtually no employers in the united states used the system voluntarily.

then 2018, arizona required it, first state to do so. and the federal contract regulations came out. >> look at the numbers since 2006. from 2006 to 2018, the number of employers enrolled in e verify, went from 5272 to 800,000. 35million in 2017 covering half. is this a good number? what should the numbers be? >> it depends on who you ask, how many hires there are. the census bureau has a significantly higher number of hires. hard to know exactly because we don't record every single hire through the e verify system. if you look at the percentage of employers who actually are

enrolled in the system. that's 13% of all employers in the united states. they are disproportionately larger employers. 60% of the employers employee less than 10 people. but only about a little more than 10% of e verify employers have less than 10 employees. so it's very few who are at the high end employers. the small businesses are less likely. we have many job sites in states that mandate e verify. good morning to you. more of an independent libertarian than a communist, socialist, democrat that want

to open borders. i lived in san diego for a while and you can get false documents. this is like closing the door after the horse is out of the barn. there are so many fake documents out there that the federal government and the employers could care less and again, back to this situation that we have now, you have to look, three to four times as many illegal immigrants working in the country. and finding jobs, jobs are out there. but they're all taken by the people from the rest of the world that have snuck into the country. i'm a vet. immigration on my list for the things this country needs to take care of. >> certainly, most people in

the economy right now with, unemployment is near record lows. and you're talking about 96% of looking for a job last month found a job and that includes u.s. citizens and legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. the economy is growing, job growth is growing, and many of the jobs that americans are employed in right now depend on jobs done at the lower end by immigrant workers whether they may be in the country legally or illegally. the question is whether e verify has done much in terms of deterring illegal hiring. and if you look at the rate at which you have final non- confirmation. you are determined ineligible to work and the employer must fire you. the share of total e verify

that resulted in a final non- confirmation declined from 5% to now about 1%. the work force that, the share of the work force that he's illegally the 5%. so when e verify first came out. it was about what we'd expect. and now it's declined by 80%. and that's a sign that e verify is not, much of the problem. >> why wouldn't it catch it? >> the reason is the same as what went on before we had e verify. and they'll borrow a friend or relative's identity and the information checks out according to the federal government. that matches the information provided to the employer. so the system is really not checking you. it's checking your information. and if the information matches

you'll be approved. and that's what we've seen in states that have mandated it. and employers say i use this. i'm going to get a legal work force. the federal government will come in and audit the records and actually physically check, this person matching what we have. and it turns out it's very easy to evade the e verify system. >> these are the states that mandate e verify for private employers, they have to use the system in these states. all employers, and the lighter shaded color are private employers. we're getting your comments on e verify. if you've juiced e verify as an

employer. >> good morning. >> thank you. i think the previous comments mean that if areas where e verify can be fooled, it should be tweaked. if there's multiple uses of the same information. but i hate to disappoint your previous caller, i'm a democrat and i'm not a communist, i'm a capitalist. but i don't want to disappoint any of the republicans for thinking that democrats are somehow communists, here's an idea for you for your institute. congress should pass a law that requires all business liability operating in the united states to provide an exclusion of coverage when it comes to

workers compensation and general business liability. an exclusion of coverage for any non-documents employee. they are not going to take the chance who would sue them when excluded for coverage. >> what do you think? >> well, you have to understand that these workers are documented. the employer is checking documents. they may not be the documents of the, but they are documents. the employer is going through the process that the federal government has established to demonstrate whether or not someone is authorized to work or not. really, the question is the

problem of illegal employment. is e verify the answer? and we really now have more than a decade of experience in arizona with a full mandate and it hasn't helped the issue of illegal employment. they have done some of the things that have been suggested in terms of looking at multiple use of the same social security number. they've even included driver's license information from the, the photo provided as part of the driver's license application. so there's extensive amount of information on all americans in this database. it concerns a lot of privacy advocates, how much information is part of it. but the issue really is has this cured the problem of illegal hiring? is there a better way.

i would argue there is a better way and that better way is providing people an opportunity to get legal status in the united states. go through a process of getting right with the law. and once they get right with the law, they'll be paying taxes on the books, going through the proper procedures, and that's really a way to deal with the illegal problem that's good for americans, and also, >> you put together a graphic that looks at wage gains. as a result of illegal immigration before and after the mandate in arizona. what are you saying here? >> this is looking at it from the perspective of someone in mexico who is deciding whether or not to immigrate illegally to the united states. how much of a wage gain would they expect to get in arizona both before and after the e

verify mandate. and if you look at wages after the e verify mandate. they did decline. mainly for mail workers. but they did not reduce nearly enough into any difference as far as the would be illegal immigrants decision about whether or not to immigrate to the united states illegally. and that's the point. if this is supposed to turn off the job magnet attracting people, it hasn't done that. it hasn't reduced the value of immigrating illegally nearly to a point that it would make any impact on someone's evaluation about whether or not to do that. the interesting thing about the arizona case study on this is not, well it did reduce the wages of illegal immigrants on average, actually, the number, the share of the illegal

workers looking for work and the employees in that state actually increased because what you had was wages for the primary workers declined and then you had the wife enter the labor force in order to make up the difference. and you had more people being employed as a result of the e verify mandate illegally than before it. and it actually backfired in a way. many proponents didn't expect. >> samuel. >> i'm concerned about the poultry industry, the construction industry, and the livestock. because the construction they issue 1099s.

and 40 years in social services, no one unless they came in to verify a citizen of the united states, i used the immigration authority. they could not get food stamps, cash assistance, unless there was an emergency. so people coming over the borders, gathering up the funds, and 40 years working in the agency, i can vouch that there's an effort and 99% of us who dedicate our lives to social services and ensure that everybody qualifies for the benefits they receive. >> okay. >> that's a great point. >> so e verify doesn't apply for federal benefits or welfare benefits, there's a different system that verifies the legal status for the people in that arena. this is for employment.

and the callerrer is absolutely correct. that are in the country illegally. and you would not know that by checking the e verify records. >> >> the reason why my comment would be, immigration, i firmly believe that the e verify is a

small part of it but in the right direction. if we're going to start somewhere got to be small. and the same aspect, immigration on the highest level has probably been part of the political campaign because it, just like healthcare. not to go off healthcare. they make up a majority of the presidential elections or however. as an independent. i will tell you native american, i don't see any form of immigration where if you look at the reality of how we allow people in this country and as i said, as native american, seen this immigration level change at the highest level. and i don't think it's so much of a problem. the employment is why they're coming here.

england, france and a lot of these other countries have the same freedom we have. the open door welfare policy. i can assure you we have a lot of immigrants in this state alone. we have a republican governor baker and a democratic mayor of boston but not to get the political part of it. republicans and democrats can work together should they choose to work for the people. and they were sent there and forgot that they worked for us. the immigration status is broken on every level. but it has to be maintained. they are not coming here just for the jobs. they're coming for the welfare system. come the legal way. >> okay. >> so a lot to unpack there. the first point was that e verify, even if it's not working well. might as well do it because it's something.

and the issue that i would take with that is that it's really harmful to legal workers in a way that it's not been reported on. the number of workers who are wrongfully erroneously targeted. they have to sort out with the federal government over weeks or months or even years to figure out exactly what the problem was. why did they not get authorized? is there a database issue? you have to prove that there was an error when the information was put in and that can be a costly process for the employer and the employee. they are losing wages and productivity. and there were 58,000 of those last year alone. you're talking about a half million or more over a decade where americans, legal

residents are being hit with erroneous non-confirmations. and you're losing the opportunity for a job and the main reason for that is many employers will run you through the system and they'll be like no, i don't want to deal with this tentative non- confirmation, i'll just drop this application in the trash. and you have 10,000 or so of those in addition to the tentative non-confirmation. there are problems with the system that harm legal residents without any of the benefits that you hear about in terms of preventing. with respect to other countries if you look at germany, france, canada, with these countries all allow a rate of legal immigration, far greater than what we allow population in the united states. the united states allows more legal residents than the absolute number than other countries, but the population and the size of our country is

so much greater. so for example, the united states allows about a third of a percentage increase in the population due to legal immigration. we could allow more immigration and it reduces the incentive for the people to come illegally. >> we have 200,000 illegals entering at a cost of $15,000 per person. that's $3 billion additional every year. and are the numbers right? >> i don't think his numbers are right? >> not just the benefits. i'm not sure what the number

came from. there's some cost any time you have a person in the country. there's some cost in the infrastructure of the country. and some of them will end up using some benefits along the line. children are going to end up in public schools and you have to factor in the benefits. the child is going to grow up and work over their entire life in the united states most likely. and will be paying taxes throughout that time. and the second generation, the children of immigrants are the most fiscally positive of any group of people in the united states. there are a lot of benefits to allowing people to immigrate to the united states. with respect to illegal immigrants in particular, they are not eligible for any of these public benefits programs. they are not eligible for

social security. even though they are paying social security taxes through employment. so employers are paying the social security taxes into an account. maybe it's a u.s. citizen's social security number they are using. and the benefits being received by americans through their payments into the social security account should really be taken into consideration when we're talking about getting rid of immigrants. >> let's talk to, louisiana republican. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> i want to make two scoops to you. first of all. they don't care because they know that they're not going to get punished for doing it.

okay? and it's also greed. greed has to do with it. they don't have to worry about paid vacation or sick leave. and don't have to worry about playing unemployment insurance, they don't have to pay insurance at all. second of all and no they don't get no consequences. it's going to continue. and the politicians, that's republicans and democrats, they don't care because for the simple reason when they run for office, either they run for the, those businesses have found at all they have to do is put enough money in that campaign. and that's how they can get away with it. >> did you see the news reports

that president trump's golf club did not use the e verify system when it was hiring workers for golf resorts. >> let me tell you about that. donald trump is the ceo. donald trump didn't personally hire those people. it's people that working for him. i'm 73 years old. it was the people that under him that did that. he don't go around and hire those people that do cleaning and stuff like that. it's people that work for the him. >> to your point. what about, businesses just don't care. >> i think businesses want more workers. i think that's a fact of the economy. and her point about the world

running on self-interest, i agree with that wholeheartedly. and i look at the realities of the world which is people run on self-interest, politicians or private businesses, we're all in this to make the best life we can. and given that reality, the question is how do we best deal with the problem of illegal immigrants. people crossing the border illegally which we don't want to see happening. and one approach goes totally contrary to everyone's self- interests. or you try to align self- interests with the law. and that's where the illegal immigration problem, but allowing the legal pathway. and that is really the answer to the problem, not these types of proposals that the caller

directly identified are totally contrary to the self-interests of everyone in the system. >> sean is an independent in lakeland, florida. >> this is history, folks. america historically has benefited from unscrupulous labor, let's use that term. and that's what it does. we have laws on the books, every time i hear e verify it makes me want to enforce. we have laws on the books that if they would enforce. we had a war on drugs. we need to have somebody go in and enforce the law. if you hire the one illegal that you, if you get caught your use your business license.

we got over 30, whatever the billion number of illegals and they keep comes in record numbers. how come i have seen not one business person lose their license. no one person in the headlines is being fined. if you got rats come in your house through all the holes and they eat the cheese and your response is oh, no well,, since tells you, -- well, common sense to you to get the cheese off the floor. guest: arizona does have what they call the business guest and multi-. if you get -- business >> twice hiring someone without going through the e verify process, it will shut you down completely. if you want to know the reason that has almost not happened at all in that state, the reason

is what the last caller said the self-interests. no one wants to shut down american businesses because that will result in not just the firing of illegal workers but all of the american workers who are employed there as well. and how is that good for the economy or for the state? if you look at fines and enforcement. south carolina issues a lot of fines for missed e verify checks. it doesn't mean that they hired someone illegally. they missed the check. that's a regulation on business. and a regulation on hiring. and the more you increase the risk, the more, the less hiring is going on. if you want the best answer to this problem, you want to go in the market direction which is

let employers and employees catch up on their own. decrease the cost of hiring overall. and that will result in more hiring. >> who runs the e verify system. >> the agency within the department of homeland security. other agencies, immigration and customs enforcement actually enforce the system and audit employers. not only the ones who use the system but also the ones who don't. the trump administration has done the most audits of any administration so far. we've yet to see whether that will result in no more illegal hiring. the obama administration set records before the trump administration now broke them. we haven't seen really any change in the number of immigrant workers in the labor force. but nothing really substantial

in terms of turns off the job. >> in oak ridge, tennessee, democrats. >> good morning. >> seems to me we are putting a lot >>'s it seems to me were putting a lot of obstacles in our own way. this is america and why is it that e-verify would not work very well ? is it facial recognition? isn't it just a lack of political format that precludes this kind of arrangement in america the way we can do everything else? >> do you want to take that, david bier ? >> we are incorporating photo ideas from the state level. the problem with biometric identification, fingerprints of this sort of thing. it really creates a backlash of the american people. i don't want to go to the federal government and register

my fingerprints. i'm not a criminal and at that point really asking people to go through biometric identification. it freaks people out to be honest. they're a little concerned about what is next with this program? is it right now being used to monitor hiring in the united states, it can be used to monitor tour gun purchases next? people in the gun advocates are concerned that that happening because gun control process would allow for creation of a record of every single gun purchase in the united states. that's really what happens with e-verify. this is the concern from the privacy standpoint having a national id, biometric

system that could be used by anyone to check out who you are a look at your history . >> what is this illegal immigration into the united states every year. if we were to do what cato institute is advocating here and have a pathway to citizenship , with that number increased? >> if you look at the number of people illegal immigrants who entered as well as a number who left minus the number who died we actually saw a net decline of about 1 million people in 2007. that million people largely were mexican illegal immigrants who went back to mexico when the housing bubble burst in the economy crash. even in the last couple years we have seen a decline of about 300,000 from 2014 to 2016

decline in the population. it is really between 11 and 12 million . we have seen other estimates. but the trend is largely the same. total living in the united states . >> not coming here every year? >> the number who are entering minus the lump number who are leaving. the number who are entering is not known precisely. but you're talking about a couple hundred thousand who enter and then a couple hundred thousand, little bit more to leave every year. >> we will go to michael in new york and independent. you are on the air we are listening. >> i have a question, regarding the tax consequences if illegals are coming in, are they not using names and information of current employees so how would a w-2 work? when they file w-2s? >> there is no ban on having multiple jobs.

there is nothing preventing you from being employed at multiple locations but obviously it is the same employer it would be a bit odd to have the same employee employed multiple times by the same employer. you would have to use identification of someone who is probably not employed at that workspace are at that business, which is generally the case. the employer, is actually paying taxes. they are paying into social security system. they are doing withholding and all the rest. this person is not exactly who they say they are. >> california good morning to you . >> good morning, i am very nervous so please excuse me . >> don't be nervous. >> i do this every time i call .

e-verify is no longer useful, it is obsolete. this is what the illegals are doing in california. they come here, they have the babies that is a little american citizen and then that baby gets a social security card. so that baby is entitled to welfare. they get food, housing, clothing, school. and then the parents can use that social security number to get a job. so that is just making it amassed right and left . >> you know that is happening? >> everybody in california knows is happening . >> you know that's happening? >> i completely agree with the caller on the point about using the child's social security number. there is nothing that preventing that from happening. you can use a social security number, that will check in with the government databases. >> but do they have to know how

old the person is? >> that is really the issue you have to do a more extensive upgraded system to make sure that the person is actively of working age. sometimes they are of working age . you can have a child 16 or 17 using their authorization. in terms of the welfare cost like i said before. the poverty level among the illegal immigrants is quite high. the children do end up using welfare benefits at a higher rate than other u.s., foreign americans . but when you look at when they enter adulthood there actually high achievers. so the rate at which they levels go down is actually below that of the u.s. population. like i said before the national academy of sciences impact

immigration second-generation is the most fiscally positive of any generation . >> in new york, tom your last. independent color. >> thank you very much. i like to tell your guess how uninformed he really is. i am shocked. i am shocked the way you are talking in the way you are treating people the way when they call them . i would like to let you know, illegal immigration not legal. illegal immigration destroyed my company . i had 25 taxpaying citizen working for me. paying taxes and doing the job and in one night my entire company was relieved of their job and told that they're going to be taking a job cheaper doing the job next day. my company was put out of business. my guys didn't have a job anymore. they weren't paying taxes .

they were unable to feed their kids. who is running the show? i thought this was america. this is nonsense. that's what this was. >> tom, were these jobs, was the job loss people who were in this country illegal or are lost their jobs to people overseas. >> they were not allowed to be in this country. 25 american citizens lost her job. >> i would ask the caller how he knows whether these people were american citizens or not. did he go through the e-verify process? did he check the identification himself. if so, why did he hire them? this is really a question that i wish the caller could answer . because just profiling people based on the fact that they speak spanish or they look

nonwhite doesn't mean they are in the country illegally. at the end of the day, bottom line is this. unemployment rate in the united states is near all-time low. 96% of everyone who wanted a job last month found a job and that means that you have illegal workers, they are finding jobs and american workers are finding jobs. if you look at the market overall. there is always going to be the exception. there's also going to be instances where things don't work out exactly right. overall you have illegal workers. immigrants doing jobs that most americans don't want to do. they do them in agriculture, construction. that is providing job opportunities at higher wage levels of oversight and management. >> let me ask about this

conversation unemployment rate came up in january. 4% for january. jobs added were 304,000. what you make of those numbers? >> like i said 96% of everyone looking for a job, . the economy is growing. we need workers in this country. more workers really add to economic growth. you limit the number of workers in the economy per the hard tap on that. put in hard tap on economic growth. economic growth is really the thing that we need if you want to reduce that deficit. if you want to reduce the debt. you need to have a growing economy. the faster we can grow that economy the more we can reduce that that and deficit . >> david bier as immigration policy analyst with cato institute , thank you for the conversation today. washington journal live everyday

with news and policy issues that impact you. coming up friday morning tennessee republican discusses congressional news every day and the goals of congress. then new jersey democratic congressman efforts to require presidents and presidential candidates to release their tax returns. be sure to watch c-span's washington journal live at seven eastern friday morning. join the discussion. after the recent government shutdown a house committee this week take a look at the impact it had on small businesses. the hearing included business owners in economics professor from the university of michigan. discussing the concerns of the possibility of another shutdown of a bipartisan agreement on government funding is not reach .