personal lawyer has been speaking with lawmakers behind closed doors but wednesday he is scheduled to appear at a public hearing that focusing on the 2016 presidential campaign and trumps financial disclosure starting at 10 am eastern. >> c-span's washington journal, live every day with news and policy issues that impact you are coming up wednesday morning, we discussed the u.s. north korea summit joel witt and then democratic congressman from rhode island and glenn thompson will be on to talk about career and technical education programs in the u.s., be sure to watch washington journal wednesday morning and join the discussion. >> michael cohen, trumps longtime personal attorney will testify before the house oversight and reform committee

. >> washington journal continues. host: justin bogie is a senior analyst at the heritage foundation, studying fiscal affairs. he joins us to discuss this number. trillion joining us this morning to discuss this in number 22,059,995,000,000 and counting, the current u.s. national debt. justin bogie, put that number in perspective . >> it's a laborious number, and put that in perspective, if we divided it amongst every person in the u.s., they'd already have a $67,000 share of the national debt. over the next 10 years it's expected to climb another $30,000 per person.

it's a huge number and overwhelming for many to think about. most families certainly couldn't sustain $100,000 in debt, i don't think so it's a question of how does the u.s. government do that? >> before we answer that, how did we get here? >> i think it's a lot of factors, over the last 10 years or so debt has climbed about $10 trillion and some of that has to do with stimulus packages that were passed under bush and obama and we've had the budget control caps in place with several deals to amend those and increase spending by hundreds of delusions of dollars and a large amount of emergency and disaster related spending added on more and there's a lot of fact is going into that . >> what what is at the end of the obama administration question marks that about $2 trillion from the trump administration . >> the two usual ways to reduce

debt, decrease spending in the futures or raise revenue? where do you fall? is it a mixer one of the other? >> i certainly think this problem is being driven by spending. i don't think increasing taxes will fix the problem. revenues are at the historical average but spending is above the historical average and that's being driven by three things, social security, medicaid medicare and interest on the national debt. $22 trillion is a huge number so when you start paying interest on that you are obviously going to see a large amount of money going to that and within the next five years or so, the country is projected to spend more money on interest on the national debt and national defense. that should alarm everyone if it becomes a national security issue . >> remind us what the budget caps are and what happens later this year . >> just to clarify, the federal budget last year was 4.1 trillion dollars in the budget

only covers the discretionary part of that, one third of the budget. so you're not talking about a lot of money, 1. $1 trillion is the year but this last budget deal increase spending by $300 billion over two years in our setting up for cliff were spending would fall by hundred $25 billion next year if it reverted back to the hand much would go to national defense, so there's talk of a budget deal or some way to increase defense spending . >> explain what the overseas contingency operations fund is and how this plays into that? >> this evolved after 9/11 that it was originally designated as emergency spending to respond to these places but what it's turned into, we do still have ongoing war efforts across the globe but increasingly this

overseas contingency's operation count is not by the budget caps it's an unrestrained pot of money that has been increasingly used to support the department of defense budget instead of going to the conflicts overseas as it was intended . >> are discretionary budget caps enough to play down the massive number? >> in the short term it's important to control the growth of discretionary spending but no, it's not enough. within a few years you could get rid of the whole budget because of interest and social security and medicare/medicaid, we would still consume all revenues and run a budget deficit. so you're not gonna get there on discretionary budget alone . >> how do we get there? >> focus on what's driving the debt and that's these huge programs social security and medicare/medicaid. they are taking in less revenue

than they pay out with the reserve funds built up but eventually they will start running a deficit and benefits are on track to go down. so, until you make the programs more sustainable and find ways to lower healthcare costs, it's going to be hard to ever balance the budget . >> is any of that happening in congress right now? >> no. that's another alarming thing, this kind of made an impression but no one in congress is talking about it expect why not expect the debt doesn't mean anything for at least the last few years, we got to the point where instead of having a debt limit they passed the suspension, this allows congress to borrow as much as it wants to until it runs out. but, we need to get more serious about the debt limit and have a number in place if we're gonna raise it in needs to be accompanied by spending cuts or

at least some way to offset the increase . >> if you want to join the conversation colleen. ) 748-800. our conversation in this segment of the washington journal about this number, $22 trillion and counting. the u.s. national debt. richard is up first, in new jersey, a democrat. go ahead. expect hello, as i would from the heritage foundation, it's not t >> as i would expect , it's not just rich people getting too much money it's for people, brame the poor the people with social security medicare, it's not the wealthy with a tremendous number of wealthy people will, just cut back on social security and medicare, let's face it, we have a very

wealthy country and we keep cutting their taxes blame the poor, that's the real problem . >> that's a real problem in this country because you've got for people blaming other poor people or immigrants, when it's really the wealthy who run the country to it's corporations who run the country and it's the wealth you suck up all the money and that's the fax . >> justin bogie? >> i don't think anyone is saying we should cut benefits for the poor. we should prioritize money for social security for those who need it most, so we wouldn't be taking money away from the poor are anything like that . >> when i look to the revenue side. here's a newspaper article that says revenue should've grown 7% this year but instead revenues

fell moderate inflation and unemployment at its lowest level in 50 years the tax cut increase deficit by $2 trillion over a decade and with one full year of the new tax code behind us we have good evidence to back up these projections and can put to bed the myth that the tax cuts are paying for themselves . >> the number they are using is on a static basis . >> what is that mean? >> the revenues would treat trees by $2 trillion, it doesn't take into effect the broader economic impact people putting those back into the economy and investing the money but it's a spending problem, or at the historical level of revenue, well above historical level of spending. if you look at the last deal, that added $2 trillion to the deficit so it's a twofold

problem . >> if somehow a deal can come together for folks could pay more attention with the deal that increases spending would you be okay? >> we don't think the lack of revenue is the problem, ultimately this is a album that congress has to face and look for a compromise they can agree to and that the president would sign. hate to commit to that but it certainly a problem they need to address in some form . >> jonathan, good morning >> my thing is when making this argument, when most people think the defense spending. so,

i think that putting that in a pie chart as a visualization for most people and pointing out that this is what is discretionary spending and wet the government is meant to do them the entitlements are what we say the government is going to do but that's out-of-control. i kind of feel like that needs to be stamped in everyone's mind that this is what it looks like and it's not the dod, it's just entitlement . >> that's exactly right. if anyone is interested .

>> what percentage of legislators have signed the pledge to grover norquist, is it true nearly all republicans have ? do you think that running the payroll tax and is trickle-down economics work? >> i've seen as a result of tax cuts that one in effect in 2017, we've seen the lowest unemployment rate since the 60s. there are more jobs available now than there are people seeking job so i do think it works. but, the biggest problem with the tax cuts is that it wasn't accompanied by spending cuts. spending continues to take off and when you are cutting revenues even in the short term and increasing spending, as any

family budget knows that's a recipe for failure . >> good morning . >> good morning, i don't understand i'm 76 years old. i'm not sure i understand how when less than 50% of our people pay any taxes whatsoever into taxes, how we can sustain the tax base. i know that is old time thinking but . >> i'm not a tax expert by any means, but i think all of us working are taxed and are trying to pay our fair share, some people more that's all i have to say about that . >> ask plain what that is? guest: i'm not sure what she's

getting out on that one. can you explain modernist theory ? >> i'm not sure what she's getting at on that one expect public spending -- oh . >> more than you are taking in year after year, that's not going to work. you will at some point be bankrupt. or some reason the federal government is held to a different standard -- for some reason the federal government is held to a different standard. this has broader impacts. god for bid we get into a bid -- forbidor we get into a conflict or a war. this could make it harder to borrow additional money, china and japan hold a large percentage of our debt. these are all national security can make it harder to borrow additional money in china and japan hold a lot of our

densities are national security concerns, we need to find ways to stabilize it and turn the other direction . >> an 80 minute state of the union address, how surprised were you . >> i wasn't completely surprised but it is concerning. he does have people in his administration who care about that, nick mulvaney was on the house budget committee when he served in congress and rest but now who is acting director and i know they are concerned about the budget but i wish the president was out there making the point that the deficits are too high and i don't think it's a huge priority right now . >> good morning and thank you c-

span. i have a few points here if you allow me to have them. when did america stop becoming great? and i have a sub viewpoint, i think it stop being great when corporations from foreign countries in our country were allowed to by congress and have the free trade deal that took most of our jobs from this country. when i was growing up you didn't have to leave your community to find a job there were factories everywhere. i had to call prudential insurance company, their customer services in philadelphia and i got to speak to someone in malaysia. had the phone call went to

philadelphia, there would've been a taxpayer there paying into the system that is when america stop being great, when our politicians were bought off by national corporations and pass that trade bill . >> so, the issue of the $22 trillion debt, how concerned are you? >> it's not only the debt that is that they're not worrying about the american worker anymore were concerned about money, money, money, going overseas coming back to the 10% who's got it all and don't want to share with americans . >> your thoughts? >> i share his frustration, anyone who's tried to call into a helpline, it's hard to understand or your sent somewhere else. i think it's a problem in the administration has been committed to trying to bring more jobs back into america which i think is a good first step and hopefully we will continue that trend .

>> justin bogie is with us for another 10 minutes and works at the heritage foundation is a senior policy analyst. the topic is the $22 trillion united states debt. at is in toledo ohio, a democrat, go ahead. >> yes. my problem is, i don't understand why these republicans keep wanting to cut social security. did ronald reagan or the republicans in the 80s took so many millions out of social security and never paid it back? another thing, where did we get this money from to send to israel and saudi arabia,? in other countries, where is the money coming from if we have such a big debt ? >> foreign aid . >> the fact of the matter is

the program is on track to basically go unsolved and it won't have the money to pay all beneficiaries. if we don't start taking the steps now to change that we will get to the point where there's either a larger benefit cutter everyone out there will see a huge increase in taxes to cover the liabilities. i don't think either option is really what is best for america and that's why we need to start addressing this now instead of continuing to kick the can down the road further and further. on foreign aid, i do think we do send a lot of money overseas and that something we need to continue to look at. one of the problems with the federal budget is that we have all these programs out there, where we have segments that are unauthorized meaning congress doesn't re-up the programs every year like they're

supposed to and so they are allowed to continue on and on one maybe we need to think about are they still relevant and serving their purpose and a good use of money? >> numbers on foreign aid when it comes to the crisis in venezuela, this from the washington times story, monday the administration pledge $56 million in extra aid to support 3.1 million venezuelans because of economic hardship. this is on top of u.s. aid that is sitting along sent to columbia and brazil bringing u.s. assistance to $195 million, hundred 52 million in humanitarian aid and 43 million in development or economic assistance . >> . >> at the end of world war ii, this country build out asia and europe after the war and now we are in debt in debt to who?

the national debt is a farce, who do we owe this kind of money to? i'd like to know who this group of people is because somebody has to be collecting this money somebody has to be collecting this money, and all this farcical talk about international loans, and back and forth, it is the interest rate, the fake interest rate that put this country into debt, you make it people have to wake up, america should have its own banking system, and tell the people that we supposedly owe the debt to, to go to you know where. >> the 2 largest holders of the debt are china and japan, back and forth, usually, bringing up world war ii, the $22 trillion, as a percent of the economy, it's the highs the debt has ever been other than the three years in the immediate aftermath of the -- of world war ii. >> what are your thoughts on government shutdowns? weaker i don't think anyone advocates for government shutdown, i don't it is a good

idea, we've seen these proposals out there from several members of congress, to have these automatic continuing resolutions, the new funding would automatically kick in, and if congress can't pass appropriate -- appropriation levels. >> they would stay the same. but i don't that's a good idea either. >> the reason we have government shutdowns, the budget process is not followed, the 1974 budget act set timelines for passing a budget resolution, and appropriations bills, the fact is that congress doesn't follow that, if you have this automatic continuing resolution, to end the threat of shutdown, i think it would make congress do even less, a no budget, no travel at, that would kickstart congress to do their job, shame them or penalize them into doing it.>> independent, go

ahead. >> caller: justin, i'm going to talk about public-private partnerships, they don't understand, that's where all of our money is going, there was a debate on c-span several months back about this very thing, between the national institutes of health and cato, and the exposed $500 billion wasted on paperwork in the insurance industry, you can go through all these public and private partnerships and pick up the same kind of ways to why are we doing something about that?>> i think there is a tremendous amount of waste in the federal government, the gao puts out reports every year, highlighting billions of dollars in waste, fraud and abuse, but until congress actually takes interest in that and takes it seriously, those

numbers are only so good, it's hard to recoup them without will from congress. >> north, a democrat, good morning. >> good morning, i want to ask a question, i'm confused, he first said, and i've heard a lot of politicians say this, that social security right now is solvent, how can we be adding to the debt, when we are not even using any money, the general fund now, using the surplus to take care of social security, how come we can't have it -- how come we haven't added the $22 trillion to the debt? and how much money is going into social security, as opposed to coming out, do some math, and then say that's what we are using but i still don't get how we are contributing to the debt when you say we haven't run out of money had, i was that possible, it can't be both ways. >> i'm really referring to the long-term growth of the debt,

the national debt is going to increase by another $12 or $13 trillion over the next 10 years, and over the next 40 or 50 years, much larger than that, the long-term growth of spending, driven by social security, medicare, medicaid and interest on the debt, that is what i'm talking about, and several factors, obamacare spending added a lot of new debt to the economy, you have these budget deals that have passed, that have added more debt, there's a lot going on there. >> do you think a debt limit is a good thing? >> i think it is better than -- i don't know if it is the ultimate solution, these people who have talked about getting rid of the debt limit totally, it's kind of a we have already with the suspension, it is basically null and void, that is not helping the problem. >> what do you see the concern that it creates a manufactured crisis, and a fiscal cliff?

>> you could argue that, and a lot of other stuff gets lumped into these debt limit deals, that is problematic as well, but one of the few times where we actually take the debt seriously, the few times when people are talking about it and care about it, i think it's good to bring attention to that very important issue. >> chris, a republican, go ahead. >> thank you for taking my call, three things that would help pay off the debt, the oil in venezuela i think would help a lot, the united nations should be doing more to take care of that situation, if they're not willing to, i think we should do it by ourselves, the second one is decriminalizing marijuana on a federal level, the taxes from that alone, and not fighting it, we should've learned that from prohibition,

in the 1920s, from al capone, and the rubber crab situation, ringing up human trafficking, and illegal immigration, we should decriminalize prostitution, and those three things right there would help pay off the debt. >> about 1 minute left. >> what you think about the plan? because i'm not sure if i want to touch those got this is a morning show, -- if i want to touch those, this is a morning show, we should leave options on the table, not those specifically, but we should be looking at lowering the debt, cut government waste, get back to the constitutional role of the government. >> what are you doing to get the folks in that building to pay more attention to this issue? baker we put out our budget to print every year, a new one coming out in the next few months. -- >> we put out our budget every year, and conferences --

comprehensive report about taxes and everything. >> and that blueprint ills -- is available at heritage.org. >> that's right. >> thank you very much. the c-span bus travel to texas, asking folks, what does it mean to be american. >> to be american, it means about living in a country full of opportunity, it is a country where people can make their dreams happen, this especially applies to students, we have so many opportunities of education, we get to learn a lot about -- as a political science major i get to learn a lot about politics, being american means living in a country full of change, accepting change, as a country, we evolve a lot, and also the quality is a very

important american central value, everybody has an equal opportunity to succeed. what it is to be american to me, plain and simple, opportunity to help people, the opportunity to speak for the speechless. for people who are just held by financial burdens, or by cultural beliefs, i believe in unity, that is a very key part of being american. >> and i think to be an american, is to be free to do what we want under the confines of the constitution, and to be a part of something bigger, part of a diverse culture, a sort of melting pot in america, we need to be able to think about others and also ourselves, and our environment. and to better ourselves for the future.

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published by public affairs, c- span's the presidents will be on shelves april 23, but you can preorder your copy as a hardcover or e-book today. at cspan.org/the presidents. or ever -- wherever books are sold. a meeting of the national governors association in washington, a panel, including white house economic advisor, larry kudlow, discussed the trade agreement with mexico and canada, and also modernizing communications and infrastructure, this is three hours. good morning, welcome back to the second day of the winter meeting. we are here, we are starting today's program with a timely topic, and that is trade, with the new u.s.-mexico-canada agreement, known as the