the presidency, sometimes, it is hard to count on certain people but you can always count on your family to bring you comfort and love. >> watch the entire event on camp david sunday at 8:00 p.m. at midnight you are watching american history tv only on c-span3. a spacek el-baz is scientist who trained astronauts and led the lunar landing site selection process for nasa's apollo program between 1967 and 1972. next on american history tv, he talks about working on the apollo missions and shares what he and his team learned about the moon. the center for earth and planetary studies at the smithsonian's national air and space museum posted this 90 minute talk. hosted this 90 minute talk. >> good evening.

i'm priscilla with the museum center for earth and planetary studies. i am very pleased to have with us tonight dr. farouk el-baz, who in a little while will be talking to us about his experiences as an eyewitness to the planning and implementation of the apollo program. start the program tonight with an informal question and answer session. the purpose is so you can get to know him a little bit, learned a little bit about him, and his career in science beyond apollo. we have one rule. those of you who have been to these lectures know that. you can only ask questions that do not relate to the topic of his lecture tonight. [laughter] priscilla: you don't want to jump ahead on the lecture. there will be time for those questions after. i will start us off and then

open the floor to your questions. can you tell us a little bit about what drew you to geology as a career? i was in primary school and high school a member of the boy scouts. i loved going with the boy scouts to outside of cairo on the east side of the city, and therefore i became interested in thate and things like this the boy scouts would encounter on the east of the city. not knowing what they were, but i collected them and they actually had a little museum in a shoebox. [laughter] a lot-baz: -- priscilla: of your research after your work with apollo i think related to

desert research. after the apollo lunar program, you were principal investigator for earth observations and photography on the apollo test project. you would be looking at the desert from space. did they give you a new perspective or view of the desert? mr. el-baz: a new perspective. this was the time where i hired you and began to think about since we are going to have a spacecraft rotating around earth, and we can take pictures of the earth the way we had taken pictures of the moon, where would we emphasize this and how often should we take the pictures? of what? of how? what kind of camera? all of that. turns out, the mission would cover a great deal of the deserts of the earth.

i began to emphasize photography of the desert. i was invited to go back to egypt. the president of egypt heard about this. he wanted me to emphasize photography of the western desert. after all of the political stuff israel, he wanted to develop the western desert of egypt. i began to concentrate my lands on thedded earth in general, with emphasis on the egyptian desert to see where we would do development if we can do something about using the desert for mankind.

priscilla: now for your questions. >> when was the first time you saw the moon through a telescope? mr. el-baz: very late in my life, when i was doing -- the early days of my life, i was doing a program. a friend of mine, the geologist in a division called astro geology. he had been doing all the mapping of the moon based on visions from a telescope. i did only look at the moon from the satellite images. basically something called lunar .rbiter

he said we can do a great deal looking through a telescope. i went to a telescope in flagstaff, arizona and began to look at it. that was my first time to see it. in the middle of my mapping of the moon, we got to look at it through a telescope. >> you are one of the most fascinating people in the apollo program. based on not only your work, but the contributions you made in egypt, it fascinates me. are you ever going to sit down and write an autobiography? [laughter] the question is you have done some very fascinating work, are you ever going to sit down and write an autobiography? mr. el-baz: my wife keeps asking me that question. yes, i am writing.

i have are the title. there will be 16 chapters. it will be the first about the moon and training astronauts, all of that in addition to the beginning of looking at the earth from space. i" as at "apollo and working title. priscilla: and your daughter is making a film as well, so that will be very interesting to see. >> my name is mary. it is very nice to meet you. in some of my studies of astronauts going to the moon and seeing the earth from a whole new perspective. how did your research, particularly that you just spoke of, give you a new perspective of looking at the earth through the studies you have done?

priscilla: how has your work looking at the earth from space a venue a new perspective on the earth? mr. el-baz: believe it or not, we were all absolutely stunned with the picture of the earth in the distance. we had been planning the lunar photography so hard and looking at the moon. what would they do, what kind of cameras, what kind of film? it never dawned on us that actually there, they could see the earth at home. we never thought of it. it was a stunning thing. that was outstanding. when they came upon this view, they were absolutely floored. they ran for the camera. we had no plan for it. the camera was in a box. they had to run to open the vault to catch that magnificent

view. they all were absolutely stunned and we were just as stunned. a very interesting thing when you are concentrating and you are so focused on what the job is, which is going to the moon and taking pictures. apollo 8, a mission before the landing. therefore that it would go over places we might land on, so let's get pictures of the landing site very carefully to analyze, and we were concentrating all of our thoughts on this, we never thought about that we can be up in the sky. priscilla: some of your work with apollo was dramatized in an hbo series. there was a segment, i think it was called "the brain of farouk el-baz." can you tell us what it is like to have an actor play you on tv? mr. el-baz: i was actually stunned.

my assistant was a boy at the time, came to help me. he told me, you have to come listen to this message. i said "what message? what is it?" and he's just said, you have to come and sit. you have to come and listen. i went up, the person was supposed to play me in a movie. that's when i first heard about it. it was something that was done without my knowledge whatsoever. it is something they wanted to emphasize in one of the segments that tom hanks had designed. he wanted to emphasize the science of apollo.

he selected two people. one about the training of astronauts and visualizing from orbit, the second was about training the guys that were going to go collect moon rocks. my case had taken half of the time. without my knowledge, i have nothing to do with it. >> [indiscernible] walking -- working a long time ago at boston university. i have a question about the information of minerals on the moon. use theble to when we tried to discover minerals on mars? priscilla: the question is will

we be able to use -- if i understand correctly -- some of the technologies we have used to measure minerals on the moon from orbit? will we be able to do that on mars? mr. el-baz: the dark places on the moon, the rocks that make the shape of the face of the man on the month, are all made of volcanic salt. it has a great deal of titanium. up to 11%. on earth, when we find percentage of rock that have between 4% and 7%, it's a big source. a very good ore for titanium. it would be costly to go to the moon to get that and come back. as far as mars is concerned, we don't know the chemical

composition of these rocks yet. on the moon, yes, there are rocks that can be economically viable. be expensive to bring in unless we produce the titanium on-site. on mars, we do not know this or the varieties yet. folks --: can i ask because we have a lot of folks who want to get into the theater , can i ask you please to move to the center of your row so you can get as many people as possible from the overflow area into the theater? thank you very much. >> [indiscernible] can you talk about anything related to the ancient egyptian thought process about what the moon's significance was, something you can connect historically that you are aware of and other things from an

archaeological perspective? priscilla: are you aware of the research about what the ancient egyptians thought of the moon? mr. el-baz: absolutely. the ancient egyptians, there were two significant deities. the sun and the moon. the location of the earth and the moon was significant in the minds of the ancient egyptians. they figured out the exact rotation of the earth around the sun. they figured out the time of the equinox to the extent that one of the temples of ramsey the solar light would hit the face of the pharaoh inside the temple only twice a year.

they learned exactly where the whens, how far it moves, the moon comes, and what the changes to the shape of the moon are, so this was part of the religious experience as well as the natural experience. >> over time, did you notice any trends in deserts growing or changing shape? ofscilla: with the changes the earth's deserts over time, did you notice any changes in the earth's deserts? mr. el-baz: huge changes. the desert was not like that before. the north african desert, including a great deal of india and parts of china, were not deserts before at all. in the case of north africa, we are much closer to the equator then today.

africa is moving northward, and getting away from the rain belt. we know for certain this has been the case, because in the case of india, it was an island. it moved northward and hit asia. this is how the himalayas formed. africa is the same thing. it separated from europe and moved northward. -- europe, itst formed the alps. the conditions of environment were different. how far back? way back, millions of years. >> could you talk about how you came to be selected as a nasa scientist?

priscilla: can you talk about -- well, i think that breaks our rule. [laughter] mr. el-baz: yes. priscilla: we will hear about that in the lecture. >> if you could comfortably live on any planet other than earth, where would you live and why? mr. el-baz: mars, because i know a great deal about the desert. [laughter] >> [indiscernible] priscilla: have you read the trilogy about mars by tim stanley robinson, and what did you think of the depiction of mars? priscilla: quite interesting and mr. el-baz: quite lively --

mr. el-baz: quite interesting and quite lively. a very good description for now. >> i want to ask two questions. there's a famous quote by one of the astronauts, i believe from apollo 16, that refers to you as king. i was wondering how you got that nickname. the other one is i'm currently a student in planetary geology and was wondering if you had advice? priscilla: she has two questions. first part, there is a transcript from apollo 16 where you are referred to as the king and the question is, how did you get that nickname? mr. el-baz: first of all, i came in from egypt and my name is f arouk. some people did not know how to pronounce it. it was quite difficult. but to them, they all remember king farouk in egypt.

so the egyptians's said, call him king. priscilla: do you have any advice for students who want to pursue planetary geology? mr. el-baz: absolutely. it's a great science. in real life, many females have done very well in planetary geology, and for some reason they did even better than men. [laughter] >> for a budding geologist, what is the best book on geology? mr. el-baz: in general or on the moon? >> either, both. mr. el-baz: first, the best book on the moon is called "moon rock." the best book on geology in , many of the books at the -- boston university are really good.

there is not one that stands out as number one or the best. geology is a very friendly topic. it really explains the mountains, valleys, there are no really bad books on geology. >> [indiscernible] what is the author? mr. el-baz: dawn will him -- dawn wilhelm. >> my father worked with you on the apollo program. one of the things i remember is you all were building a body of knowledge through the benefit of mankind. i'm wondering what you think now of some of the commercial applications of all this information and the satellite program. with the obvious exception of google maps, which we are aware of, but the satellites and treasure hunting and other views.

the question revolves thend commercial uses of technologies that came out of the apollo program. mr. el-baz: thank you very much. i thank your father for bringing you to such a wonderful event. i want to say that no matter , thereogram nasa pay for in to be a summary delivered the office of utilization, which .ublished old research work it was released to the public so any person, company, or otherwise, can utilize that for the economy. that was a very good thing to have the results of research published for use by the population.

priscilla: what do we know about the dark side of the moon compared to the light side? mr. el-baz: he said the dark side. priscilla: i know that he did. mr. el-baz: but i want to say something, that there is no dark side. [laughter] mr. el-baz: the moon is locked towards the earth. they are in lock. the center of gravity of the moon is moved forward by two kilometers. the moon cannot rotate. it is locked. it is like a man and wife. they are locked. they are held tight. as long as the moon is moving this way, the earth is moving this way. when the sun is here, this side

of the moon is lit by the sun. when the moon moves out this way, this side is hit by the -- lit by the sun. there is no dark side. sideside, which is the far , we never see it because the moon is in lock with the earth. gravitationally. did you get it? [laughter] >> is there a difference between the size, in terms of geology or anything else? mr. el-baz: very good question. because the moon is in lock with the earth, the center of gravity of the moon is two kilometers towards the earth, a great deal of volcanic action came on that side facing the earth a lot more than the far side. therefore the far side doesn't have all of the black things we see that make the face of the man in the moon.

very few black spots. because of the gravitational potential, there is a push where the near side has more of the black areas, volcanic rock, then -- the black areas, which we called the mare, the volcanic rock, than the first side. there is a difference in composition. >> how did you decide to establish the center for earth and planetary studies here at the national air and space museum when you could have gone anywhere and done anything you wanted? mr. el-baz: very good question. priscilla: why did you found the center for earth and planetary studies at the museum instead of somewhere else? in el-baz: we were very busy december of 1972, finishing up with apollo 17. and it was the very last mission

toward the moon. we never really thought of what it was we would do after apollo. no matter what you did, you're never going to get something like the apollo job. period. no matter what it is. we never thought about it, we never connive to about it. we thought, whatever happens, it's fine. that working for a company was working for nasa headquarters. we were first on the apollo program by design. there was not going to be anything like it. therefore, there was no discussion in my mind of what it .s we were going to do december of 1972 was the end of the apollo 17 mission. from the apollo 14 command module apollo -- pilot.

he said, what are we going to do when the program goes kaput? there was no need for that kind of support of nasa headquarters. i said, i don't care, i don't know. i will go somewhere else. and he told me his colleague was going to go to the smithsonian and direct the air and space museum. said that they asked him to set up a science operation. i told him if he wanted to do it right, to call you. why don't you talk to him tomorrow? i did. i called my colleague in d.c., and they said come over tomorrow and we will talk about it. he said that it would be a new national air and space museum and the smithsonian director asked me to think about

establishing a science operation. "why don't you come and do it, i know you will do it well?" i finished with nasa headquarters in december, i went to the smithsonian january 1. [laughter] they began to think about what they were going to do. this is when i began to get people to do the job and here they are. priscilla: thank you very much, and thank you all for your questions. now, we will move along to the next part of our program. mr. el-baz: i thought that was very interesting. [applause]

priscilla: good evening again. i'm priscilla strain with the museum center for earth and planetary studies. i'd like to welcome you to the first lecture in this series. we have a great lineup this year. our speakers will cover lunar exploration from the past, the present, and the future. before we jump into our program, i would like to first give you a brief update on a major project we are working on here at the museum in order to transform our entire museum building on the mall. let's run the video. [video clip]

>> it begins with a spark. ♪ the passion for air and space. why don't you take it? it looked better on you, anyway. ♪ that passion can grow, lighting the way forward for a lifetime. ♪

and now, with the monumental transformation of the smithsonian's national air and space museum, this place has ignited generations of imaginations, will become completely reimagined. ♪ inside and out. this museum can be even more of what it has always been, a place

that gives life to a remarkable past. and gives rise to the people who make history tomorrow. join us in the mission to transform the national air and space museum. together, we will ignite tomorrow. ♪ >> as you can see from the video, this project is all about inspiring our visitors to achieve the next great step in aviation and space travel. it is a seven-year project. every one of our exhibit galleries will be either updated or completely redone. don't worry, we are staying open the whole time. you will still be able to come

and visit and see our exhibit. even if you see lots of fencing and cranes. we will still be telling the stories of air and space, like the ones we are going to hear tonight. this program tonight is made possible through the very generous support of aerojet rocketdyne and united lunch on -- launch on alliance. we have air representatives in the audience tonight. please join me in thanking them for their wonderful support. [applause] priscilla: i am very pleased to welcome dr. farouk el-baz back to the museum. he is the founding director of the center for earth and planetary studies here at the museum. my very first supervisor here. that is many more years ago then i am going to admit to you.

his first association with apollo was at balcom. advising in communications planning. when he was there, he became supervisor of lunar science planning and operations. his many contributions to apollo included serving as secretary of the landing site selection committee, principal investigator of visual operations and photography, and chairman of the astronaut training group of the apollo photo team. when the apollo program ended, he came over here to the museum and established the center for earth and planetary studies, which remains a thriving science research organization with over 10 scientists to study the terrestrial planets and the moons of the outer solar system, and who are on the science teams of many nasa programs past and present.

while he was at the center, he was also principle investigator for earth observations and photography on the apollo test project. the joint ussr/u.s. mission, often called the handshake in space. he also served as science advisor to the president of egypt. in 1986, he moved to boston and recently retired from there as the founding director of the center for remote sensing. i look in the audience, i'm very pleased to see a lot of young people here. for those of us who were around during the apollo days, it was an exciting time that was really unlike any other. i think it is a real privilege

to hear from those like our speaker, who were in the thick of it and somehow it came to be. please join me in welcoming farouk el-baz. [applause] mr. el-baz: thank you very much. i'm very proud of you and what you have done, and what you are doing. stay there. keep it up. [laughter] it is really amazing what happened in the early 1960's, and what developed. i would like to do this through a series of photographs. project them and talk about them. as we go through the whole process of the apollo missions to the moon, what happened, and what my role was in the whole thing. one of the things i would like to emphasize is the fact that

interest of human beings on the moon goes back thousands of years. we talked about the fact that ancient egyptians had a goddess knew what the shape of the moon , was, the position, it was significant to them. throughout history, the moon has had a position in the human mind. the first time we got some view of the moon, next is the map made by galileo. when he dreamed the very first telescope to see the moon. that's when he saw things that varied. in addition to the black areas, he saw some high ground. he began to name the features of the moon. he called the flat black areas maria, because they are like the

seas. the bright areas he called terra, meaning the land. he imagined it to be like the earth. so the flat areas were called the sea and the land areas were called the mountains. he picked up the mountain region and called them the alps. mountains after mountains. this was the first few of the features of the moon in 1610. that's when galileo looked through his telescope to see these features of the moon. 250 years later, jules vern thought about sending men to the moon.

it was fascinating that he three menere would be according to the moon and that the spacecraft would look like this. lo and behold, it looks very much like the command module. 100 years later, we have something different from -- something new, but certainly looked very much like that. there came nasa to provide a team and send missions to the moon with exactly the same three men with a little capsule that looks like this. i took this picture to rocco patrol, he said we must have thought about this when we were young. the reason for the huge success

of nasa today is this gentleman. his name is jim webb, he was the first nasa administrator. he was only there for six or seven years. he is the one that kind of shaped the theory and workforce, and the nasa way of doing things. i heard from rocco petrone about how jim webb dealt with his people, particularly the bosses of his people. rocco said when he became a supervisor, jim webb collected us all, he said "listen here, you have become supervisors, from now on, you don't do any work."

he said, "you don't do any work, because your job from this day forward is to make sure that each and every man that works for you, "there were no women, "you have to make sure that you can get every man that works for you to do more than what they think they are capable of doing." only then we will make it to the moon. if every man does what he thinks he will do, he fails. if every man that works for you, if you can encourage them, push them to get to do more than what they think they are capable of doing, then we will make it to the moon. i think that statement can help any organization anywhere in the world. what is a supervisor's job.

next was to make sure that happens, we're lucky to have this gentleman, a rocket scientist that came from germany. thank god he joined the american troops after he escaped when he knew america was winning the second world war. he became the man to design the spacecraft. he is the one behind the design of the saturn 5 rocket, which allowed the mission to the moon to succeed as it did. the third pillar of nasa was the apollo program director, rocco petrone. rocco was a very tough guy, an army engineer who worked in m.i.t. he worked very hard.

he was one man to know how to do things. he told me once after we left the program, after we left nasa, "when we were working on the apollo missions, the three directors of the three programs came to see me and said how can you allow an egyptian to be the secretary of landing site direction? this guy could be a plant from russia. the soviets are all over egypt. the soviets could have sent him. he may be a plant.

he told them, "i did not put him in this job, it was his own fellow that elected him secretary of the committee. don't tell me where he came from. give me one thing he did wrong and i will throw him out the window with my own hand." then they left. he said "i never told you that story so it would not affect your performance." the beauty of the mind. rocco became the man that really had his finger on every little speck of the apollo program. he would say the houston guys are claiming something they cannot do right, and there would be delays. he would tell me to go down to

houston to find out the problem. and would travel to houston go down and find out exactly what the story was. some guy has six people, but his boss wants him on this. it results in a delay or something. go back to washington and tells the story. he said call this number. he calls this engineer in houston. they say hey, he tells me you're doing a good job. listen, the whole apollo program depends on your job. tell your people the whole apollo program stands on 1 foot until you fix this job. do it, and if you need help, call me.

if you have a problem at night, here is my home number. the other guys were trembling. the apollo program director was calling him from washington. none of his bosses in houston had ever talked to him. he would go and do that job in two days and fix it instantly. this was the sign that was vastly different from anything i had ever seen. i have never seen it since. these people were like that. they knew how to encourage the workforce. the workforce was very young. we were down in apollo 11 time, i was talking to astronauts. we were looking at the people running the mission. heaven, dear god in they look very young. we went to see the change of the people. we went down and asked an

astronaut how old are you. we got the numbers. we found out that the median average age of people running the apollo missions during the critical mission was 26 years old. unreal. depending on youth, you encourage them and push them, give them positivity, they feel good. each one of them believed he is running the mission. keep them thinking this way. keep pushing them. they will do wonders. we had three things done before the apollo mission. there was a ranger program. first they sent spacecraft to hit the surface of the moon and see how the impact of something like this would go. one of the things we wanted to

do was get pictures of the approach of this little thing to impact the moon so we can see details of the features of the moon as the rocket approaches. the second program was called the surveyor program. we wanted to make certain that the spacecraft could actually land. there were so many people, including very loud scientist, that said because of a continued bombardment by meteorites, the surface of the moon would be covered by a layer of dust. and that apollo 11 would just disappear into the dust. one of them told me to write president -- letters to the

president, anyone who would read, and he would have a position at the university. he has a name. people were terrified. they questioned our intellect about the fact that we thought the moon was rocky and would withstand everything. there was a necessity to prove there is something that can be sent from the earth and land on the moon, and not disappear in the dust. there were several missions to land on the surface of the moon. the surface of the moon is hard enough to land. there are rocks that can stand on the surface. the last item was the lunar orbiter. that program was the most significant of all. we sent something to go to the moon and rotate around to take pictures and relay them.

and that was done through our laboratory. we have here tom young. he was at langley research center. he was responsible for getting us together to select a site for lunar orbiter missions. the lunar orbiter brought us so many photographs we can look at and figure out exactly what it is. we could figure where to land the apollo missions one by one based on the photographs. the images of the lunar orbiter allowed us to photograph much of the near side of the moon as we possibly can. both with the maria and tara -- terra, the high ground. we can think about what the features of the moon might be.

before the missions, there was a great deal of discussion about what the surface of the moon may be, whether the craters were volcanic in origin, or impact in origin. volcanic meaning an erupting volcano. it leaves lava around it which forms these dark rocks and form the black areas of the moon. and the other was that most of the craters are due to the impacts of meteorites. andinterpretation of this the landing sites would be based on all of these ideas of where to go. the one man responsible for much of the geological mapping of the surface of the moon and the idea that most of the large craters

were due to the impact of meteorites was jean shoemaker-- shoemaker. he had the idea that he called the astra geology division. it is based in flagstaff, arizona. that's near an interest -- a meteorite impact crater. if you have a crater on the earth and it is the result of a meteorite impact, the stuff around the rim will be there. -- around the rim will be the roughest. the farther away, the smaller the blocks. that became a very interesting geological tool for us when we selected landing sites on the moon. we would take the crater diameter and go two diameters away and say i am that far away from the rim. meaning i am going to be away from all of the rubble due to the impact.

knowing that most of these round craters are meteorite impacts. we go to look at the moon from orbit. one of the most important things of the apollo mission to the moon where the astronauts that would remain in orbit around the moon would take all kinds of photographs. the very first picture of the earth we see of the moon from apollo 8 was something we never expected. they saw the view and said this -- and said, did you see that? they ran out to get the camera to take a photograph. that one picture became the title page of the apollo program. it showed that the earth is a

planet, a beautiful planet, and it is one little thing. astronauts said we don't see any boundaries, we don't see the borders between countries, we don't see such and such, it is all the same place. it has an atmosphere that turns everywhere and it became sort of the call for the environmental movement. that began in 1960. they came in elegantly and quoted statements from the bible and it just became a significant view of the earth as seen from the moon. in the meantime -- i don't know what that is -- that's another talk. [laughter]

as they rotated around the moon, they began to look at the surface features. we wanted to certainly take as many photographs of the surface in detail so we can use these photographs for the selection of landing sites as much as we can possibly apply, knowing that we think about the rocking us -- rockiness of the surface and get away from rough territory. the things we realized, the fact that you have the view from the command module that would allow us to have photographs to select the landing sites properly. and we did. then we got the shock of our life. during the apollo 11 mission, we selected a seven kilometer area where we would know for sure there was absolutely flat areas.

we took the best one to them. the spacecraft was supposed to be directed toward that one. they came down as prescribed. lo and behold, it was not going where they thought it was going. it was going to land over a small crater with a lot of blocks in it. and they were big rocks. neil armstrong had to maneuver by hand. afterwards, we realized as the command module was separated from the lander, there was increased velocity. the command module -- we thought the landing site would be it, as

the lander came in, it came further down seven kilometers and was going to land in the middle of a crater. neil armstrong had to manually move it away from it to save the mission. they started going to walk on the moon. one of the first things we asked them to do was take a picture of the footprint. we wanted to know the thickness of the fine-grained layer. we know how much he weighs and how much he would sink in it. we knew the depth of this thing, which means the grain size of all of the dust material on the surface of the moon.

then came the training of astronauts and looking at the moon from orbit, in addition to the fact of astronauts on the surface describing the surface as they walk and take samples. we wanted to have more discussion of what is it they can see from orbit. the observation would help in selecting landing sites after the mission. talking to the command module pilot of apollo mission 13, this became a very important thing to get correctly and do right. we had several missions, we were supposed to have up to 20. 20 missions to go to the room.

-- moon. they were very significant to do so. we will take the apollo photographs taken from previous show theand show them, new guys what they were in , addition to the fact that some of the information is coming in from looking -- describing the surface material and the rock. we had additional knowledge from the observations. the apollo 15 mission. al worden was a great observer. he wanted to do it right. he wanted to absorb as much as he possibly can. he became one of the best observers. while he was on the apollo 15 mission, i asked him to look at a photograph. he described it nicely. he said there were volcanic

eruptions. dark rock material. so this is additional, younger volcanic, they are darker looking. even rocco petrone from a distance pointed and came down to say "your student may have picked out a landing site." he knew exactly what it means. al worden discussing cinder cone looking things that we saw near flagstaff, arizona. this kind of thing where maybe it will be a push for one of the missions. it was the site for apollo mission 17. apollo command module observations were very important. in addition to the fact that we had cameras, one metric camera

to take the mass of the moon, and one panoramic camera that took high-resolution pictures to see details down to a few meters of the surface of the moon. apollo 16 came, and this was the one place of the moon that we selected. not exactly what we thought it would be. we selected a place near the center part of the moon, where they were all kinds of hills. hills thatof them as were built up by all can it action. headquarters loved it. rocco petrone loved it. we started thinking of it as the pile up material, very different from the organic. here comes the apollo 16 crew.

say,go up and begin to we're looking at some impact crater. very different from what we thought. then, my fellow geologists, they looked at me and said, group, i -- i looked have -- at him and said royally. so the guy i selected, very different, was exactly like what we got from apollo 11. apollo 13, apollo 14, and apollo 15. that was our mess. as site selection was concerned, that was the one that we didn't do right.

the apollo 17 mission proved the rover we had taken was useful. even though it was used for apollo 15 and 16, apollo 17 was useful to allow us to go to the mountain range. a different crater in the south, have another look at the , theetely different crater use of the rover, it is better not to drive away from the landing spot for seven kilometers. aven kilometers was not limitation of the rover. it was a limitation of the oxygen tank. one oxygen tank kaputt -- then they can

actually, two astronauts can breathe oxygen from one tank. that will take them up to seven kilometers of walking. therefore, we said that the jeep could not take them further than seven kilometers from the spot. though.e limitations the human aspect, the human need. the apollo 17 mission, we were able to train them with images taken by apollo 15. we had fabulous cameras. the panoramic camera. images thatficent can actually see apollo 17, because apollo 17 was close to apollo 15. apollo 15 had taken all of these magnificent pictures, so the

crew could use them. we showed these images on the machine during the training program. the apollo 15 mission, because of the feasibility of the rover, take them as far away from them, they could collect rocks, the geologist picking up a piece of this huge block that fell from high up in the mountain, and we knew that a piece of rock fairly high on the mountain would be different from the rocket -- the rock on the surface of the moon. of the lunarty surface as possible. the tracks of the rover will be there forever. there is no wind, there is no rain. these tracks will be there on

the moon forever. we will know what mess up we did. they will be recorded forever. next. the rock samples showed that the materials of the moon were very much like those of the earth. there are some differences chemically. some concentrations of elements that are precious elements may be. of thoriumentrations and lithium and some elements very different from the concentrations on the earth. the rocks are very much like the earth material, formed very close to the way they formed on earth. elements we are familiar with on earth would likely function similar, with different conditions because of the size, , the distance from the sun. the original composition.

whatever we learn on the earth in geology, we can certainly apply to all of the planetary bodies. next. naturally, from the microscope, it is because we see exactly the same kind of pattern of rocks on earth. next. then we came here to the smithsonian institution to establish the space museum. one of the first things we did was to think about apollo. my contribution, in addition to all of the kinds of things we talked about, the scientific material we saw, what did we do? i wrote a script for a movie called the man in the moon remembered. we wanted to show -- we did not have much space to talk about the science. saturn of the parts of

five, all of the other most , they took most of the space. the little movie of the man in the moon remembered just summarized the history of the moon, by saying that about 4 billion years ago, the earth and the moon were roaming around and they formed from some materials that emanated from the sun, most likely. then, the moon hardened, but as it hardened, there were little pieces that hit it, and each one form this inould ground thing, which is a crater. big craters like that formed the face of the man in the moon. all kinds of variations happen later on. the thing i am proud of we were able to get a piece of the moon that people could touch.

i wanted to see that because of the fact in my culture, there is something called -- in mecca, there was a meteorite assigned from god that people could touch when they go from their pilgrimage. that affects human beings of the islamic faith tremendously. i thought that maybe if you have , a piece of the moon, young kids could touch, it can affect them. i can teach them. i have touched the moon. it is a subject like that. we discussed it. my boss said, you go get it from houston. i go to our group, our fellow geologists that were responsible for lunar materials for

, scientists to study. they would say, are you out of your mind? what do you mean people can touch it? it took me 18 months. i go back and forth and discuss with them. they would say do you have a , piece of the moon? someone is going to break it and take it. we want to sell it for what do $1 billion. we do after that? somebody will come back and tell -- take another part and sell the pieces. i tell them of the piece of the meteorite in arabia that people touch. 7 million people touch it every year. it is still there. it is protected by just one fierce looking bedouin with a sword next to it. [laughter] adams, a geologist from the university of washington said,

if you get a fierce looking bedouin with a sword we will , give you a piece. and we got it and were able to touch the moon. after the museum opened, one of the most significant things that happens to me is when i see young kids coming to look at it. to actually touch it. a boy and his brother come touch it. one, an old woman that had difficulty walking. she said, i have been waiting for this all my life. some things like this make the whole effort of going to get that one piece of the moon for people to touch. next. there are all kinds of little things like this that made a huge difference. several missions afterwards, we showed the features of the back of the moon. the far side of the moon. there are no features of the man in the moon.

it is all this white rock. volcanicle of the dark -- next. there are all kinds of things for the japanese mission. going to the southern region of the moon. we know there may be water ice in the southern region of the moon, because of the fact that it is in shadow all the time. if there is water, it is going to be frozen as ice. it could remain right here in this area. next. the next mission after that -- the mission now is a chinese mission. the chinese landed a spacecraft. they have a rover. they move away from the spacecraft to investigate part of the far side of the moon. this will allow us to consider what the chemistry of the far side might be as opposed to the chemistry of the near side,

if there are differences. -- there are all kinds of things that are still talked about. there are people that think today about the potential of a mission to the moon. the potential for resource acquisition. as well as the fact it might be the first step toward going to mars. the moon will be next to us for a long time, and the chief scientist for nasa is with us today. we tell him good luck, because we need to continue to look at the moon as far as its composition, it's relationship to the earth and what we can , learn from it in terms of a mission to mars. thank you very much. [applause]

>> we have some time for questions. >> i love the story about how apollo 16 was a strikeout. i have not heard that before. and given that there were probably things you plans that you didn't get to do what , is the flight you wish we could have gone to? or, to put it another way, where would we go next time? 18-20 werece the canceled is there a site you , wish you could have gone to that you are not able to go to? >> yes, it would be the far side. a crater. center, sovery big

that we will see what the composition of the rest of the crust was like. that is the important thing to see. what is on the backside? -- are you able to land? >> on mars, there are several questions. the material itself. the sandy regions the terrain , where you have the channel. and the terrain where you have the organic buildup. there are three completely different types of things where you could send people get material so you can at least look at the three very different materials. >> how far along were things going before president kennedy made his challenge? how significant was that?

>> how far along were things when president kennedy made his challenge? how significant was that in moving things along? >> i was here at the time when he did that as a student. i was not very knowledgeable. as far as the nasa people were concerned, there was no way we would be able to do that. >> do we have a question from the overflow? >> -- robotic versus human exploration? >> what are your thoughts on robotic versus human exploration? >> they are vastly different. the robotics ring you information that is dry.

maybe we can interpret some of that. the human aspects adds a great deal. the difference in color, the difference in the way it is. all of these kinds of things. without human beings, the apollo legacy would not have been the same. we have three different programs. i told you about them, lunar orbiter survey, ranger. ,nobody knows about them at all. let's send the machine over there and look at something. fine. ok, next. but with the astronauts human , beings going in there and talking about it, endangering themselves. it is another story altogether. >> in the apollo 16 preliminary science report you identified a

, new crater on the far side of the moon. you propose a name after an egyptian king. they decided to name a smaller crater on the edge of that one. what did you think? >> that is fine. >> i'm going to repeat the question. in apollo 16, you identified a crater on the far side of the moon you proposed to name after neco. the iau put the name on a smaller crater. did you have any thoughts on that? >> it was fine. didn't really matter at all. the idea was recognizing this crater and that person. that person was recognized only in my view because of the fact that he was a king of egypt. he was an individual himself.

it was thought his land was surrounded by water on all sides, so he sent the general with a crew in a ship. he said, you go from the seat and come back from that one. it took him three years to go all around africa. stopping to get food and water. they didn't know where they were and what is it that this land is. they went all around africa and they drew the map of africa in ancient egyptian time. i was flabbergasted. i thought to myself, this man required a salute, so put him on the moon. >> in the back? >> was the surveyor program classified at the time? >> was the surveyor program classified at the time? >> none of the nasa programs were classified.

that was a very important thing. nasa could not work on classified things. therefore we were free to talk , about any of this. >> i'm curious if you have any thoughts as far as how to engage the public more? maybe, had the astronauts talked to people, journalists while they are on the moon. maybe you get less rocks but people are more engaged. people were bored by the time of 16 and 17. >> do you have any thoughts on how the apollo program could have promoted itself to the public better so the later missions might not have been canceled if public interest was higher? >> it was very difficult to get the apollo astronauts to talk at all.

whether to each other or to people. none of them were really public relations astute. none of them have the facility to do this beautifully. the only that proved to be good was theater time apollo 13 crew. >> are there any questions from the planetarium overflow? ok. moon -- ises on the there any plan of using them? >> the lunar orbiting mission has observed some deep, cavelike

structures on the moon. do you know of any uses for those or plans for those? >> this is perfectly ok to happen in rocks formed by lava flow and dried up. there could be cavities formed by collapse or of the lava. it is a very thin top layer and it would form. there is no reason to believe they are otherwise made by something else. >> i heard they were very big. the japanese did some research of that. >> there are on the surface of the moon, they are several hundred miles long. also deep. that theid before gravitational pull affected the geology.

what side of the moon would be safer? knowing what we know about the backside of the moon now, to land. >> given the differences between the near side and the far side, which side would be safer for landing? safety is both ways. the only problem on the surface of the moon is the potential for a meteorite impact. it could happen if you want to stay there for a long time or something. landingof the safety of apollo 15 or apollo 16, in any other similar place would be perfectly ok. there is no difference.

>> [indiscernible] >> sorry. >> what were big surprises you found in the apollo sample? >> there were no real surprises. most of the material was very or if theree earth, was a difference, it was because of the difference of the size. technology in laboratories has advanced greatly. since the apollo years, what are we finding out new when we go back to look at the apollo rocks now? >> what are we finding new now that we go back and look at the rocks with newer technology? >> we are just about to start it now. one of the things we emphasized very strongly was the fact that we need to save at least half of the lunar materials untouched and lock it up. with the gold in fort knox or whatever.

someday, somebody is going to clever methodry of looking at the rocks that we don't know at the time. at least for 50 years. this year, nasa began to think about, how much can we release of the locked up material? nobody has touched. just beginning to see what might be different. >> the question i have, you are at the lunar receiving laboratory. there is the sample from apollo 11. your first thoughts. >> what were your first thoughts upon receipt of the first apollo sample? >> indeed, it is very much like the results we see on earth. it has more pits on it from the hitting of the micro meteorites.

it is very much like that. and behold, geology wins it , is what we thought it might be. --www.c-span.org [indiscernible] it is the moon. holy cow. >> the rockets that went to the moon. the rock, we expected that. >> one last question. >> [indiscernible] we know each other. i was part of the team at the beginning. you had a moment -- i would appreciate that.

>> a friend of his. one last question. the one geologist did you have some special , discussions with him prior to the mission? in terms of things to look for and things to do? >> did you have any special discussions with jack schmitt on apollo 17, since he was the only schooled geologist to go to the moon? >> we had discussions for three years. we were thinking about where we would be and what we needed a geologist to go and what would a geologist do. we wanted to make certain he himself made sure his language

was clear enough. not totally geological. give us a hint of what he means about it. we expected a lot more from him. we really wanted him to fly. it was sad to see the one very good guy removed to put jack schmitt in there but we wanted , something like that. nasa has to do that. they have a scientist, a john just to fly to the moon. -- a geologist to fly to the moon. he must qualify. they have to do it. we had to see he was good enough to prove to the world it was a good thing to do. in the meantime, he made an observation that turned out to be totally wrong.

[laughter] >> but, that happens for geologists. >> thank you very much for a wonderful lecture. i would like to thank once again our sponsors. alliance,nited launch for supporting this great program this evening. unfortunately, i guess it is too cloudy. the public observatory will not be open for viewing tonight. please do not forget to join us next month on april 24 for the next lecture in the series where we will get an update on the science. >> thank you for all you are doing. [applause] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2019]

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