of 44 presidents. explore the life events that shaped our leaders, challenges they faced, and the legacies they have left behind. order your copy today. c-span's "the presidents" is available as a hard cover or ebook at c-span.org/presidents. we're back with ellen herring of the service women's action to network and we'll tals about the current controversy over thehe military draft and women's role in it. ellen, good morning.ti talk to us a little bit about your organization. >> i'm the ceo of service women's action network.oc we're a none profit that advocate on behalf of active duty and retired women veterans. we conduct research and have a membership organization. >> there's been a lot of talk lately abou' women being drafted and the possibilities of that

therefore. first let's set the stage about talking about how many women there are in the military.ac so right now we have about 16% women who are active duty troops. this includes the army, navy, marine corps, air force and coast guard. also about 20% of women are in the national guard and reserve components. and we have over 158,000 women who already served c in the national guard and reserve. so the question has come up over women being included in a possible draft. tell us about this issue and what's going on with it right now >> first of all, this has been a debate that's gone on for many yearsrv and was first introduce in 1980 when they re-institute ed selective service and he wanted to include women. congressss didn't agree. it became a male only selective

service. it was challenged up to the supreme court. the supreme court ruled against including women because they said the purpose of the selective service was to draw men into combat or the fighting forces and since women at that time were prohibited from the combat branches, the supreme court said nopee we're going to keep it male only. that's the way it's been until 2015. 2015, actually it was 2013 secretary of defense panetta lifted the pan of women serving in combat units which reopened this discussion which now do women register for selective service.pe in 2015 the next secretary of defense ash carter, in fact, opened all combat, ground combat jobs to women and shortly after members of congress

decided that -- well they were against the opening of the groundze combat jobs to women a soin they thought that they wou mobilize some action against the opening of these positions and so they introduced the our daughters act which they thought would cause this big outrage. but it actually pretty quickly passed the senate. both republicans and democrats agreed that women should register and so they back tracked and withdrew the bill and decided that instead of putting women in right away that they would study this situation, whether or not women should be registering for selective service and ultimately the draft. >> okay. so the trump administration is making moves on this right now court case. tell us about the court case and what the trump administration ir doing. >> also what happened about that same time several men again challenged selective service in a court case that was ruled on

in texas, just in january, and the judge in that case said, is yes, it's unconstitutional to onlyly requirement to register. but we got this study going on, the commission. there was a commission required in 2016 and that commission is under way. the interim report which i have a copy of is called the national commission on military national and publice service and interi report was just published also in january of 2019. the final report will be due this time next year and the purpose of this report is to kind of examine broadly the possible types of national service. and so i think the trump administration has put a t holdn this until we see the results of this national commission and what they recommend. >> so now we got all the background out of the way. where does your organization stand on women being drafted into america's military?

>> so we have long said that with full rights come full responsibilities of citizenship and we believe women should be required, should always have been required to register along with men, if in fact, we keep selective service in place.s we agree it needs re-examined. we're not sure it's even a necessary program and it is -- it's not expensive but does cost the government money to register young men now, but young men and women for selective service. >> should there be any exemptions for women? some of the arguments we heard from politicians that women are the child bearers, women are the people who keep the homes going. should there be any exception for women from the military draft? >> there are exceptions for men. many men have been exempted from selective service or the draft when their numbers came up, and being a father was one of those potential exemptions.

so, yes. i think there should be family exemptions but i shouldn't be applied differently to women than it is to men. >> we want to make sure our viewers join this conversation. so if you want toil call in and talk about this, the issue of being made available, possibly for a militaryn draft, we want you to call in. democrats, you can call in at 2 202-748-8000. republicans we want to hear from you at 202-748-8001. independents 202-748-8002. if you're active or retired military and you want to talk about the possibility of including women in a future draft we want to hear from you as well. call 202-748-8003. we're also on social media. now, ellen, one of the discussions we've heard about theou court cases that this is

decision that should not be made by a federal judge. this is a decision that should be made by congress. where should this argument be settled, in court or legislation? >> i agree completely it should be settled through legislation but members of congress often don'te like to make controversiw decisions and they will leave it to the courts to make those decisions. so, in this case again, congresu wrestled with it a few years ago. didn't make an' decision. pushed it into a study. they want to study on things that they don't want to vote on. inhe the meantime courts are acting because cases are being brought. it could end up that the courts rule when congress should be making this decision. >> here's a little bit from what the justice department had to say. if ordering women to register for the draft would impose draft registration on all eligible american women by judicial fiat before congress has, considere how to address the matter no

party before this court represents the interests of those who w would be impacted b this change. so you do see a congress being -- you do see congress beingg afraid of making a controversial choice so the courts may end up having to make this decision and then congress reacting to it? >> yep. exactly. but they would be a little late toti react to a court decision that has ruled it unconstitutional. i do think that's what this report will do. ultimately put in their hands information about selective about a broad range of potential options for national service. i suspect they will go towards something more, that's a more national service rather than specifically military and then that will allow peoplee to chooe the type of service that they want toer be in. >> you mentioned thanks service a couple of times. temple us what you mean by that? >> right now we have several types of service programs, not just military. you can join the peace corps,

you can join americorps and senior corps. those are three existing service options.s but they are considering potentially more that would be options that you could choose. if you don't want military service and you would like to go in the peace corps or americorps then you would have that as an optionon for your national service. >>ch let's talk to bruce who is calling from charlotte, north carolina and bruce is in the military. bruce, good morning. >> good morning. yes, i served in the army. one of the things i've had about the draft here, i think it's fair and equal if they are going to have a draft. but there's a problem of the pt tests, that they are changing the testing system for trainees. and would like to know from your

guest there how does she feel about this, the full military like army infantry or marines or anything like that. >> sure there are physical fitness standards required of military members. i served in the army for 30 years. and so i was subjected to many fitness tests. what we have advocated for as an organization is that there be jobd specific physical standar tests and, in fact, since women have been allowed to join these previously closed combat, the military services have moved to occupationally specific tests as well as a general fitness test. so when a soldier comes into the military, if they were drafted,d they would go through a series of fitness tests and those tests

would determine which type of occupation they were fit for or could physically perform. and i think that would be applied to men and women fo equally. so if a woman can perform at the highest physically demanding jobs, which they are doing today, we now have women in the infantry and army and they are required to meet the same occupational standards as their male counterparts then certainlt there's no reason for women not to serve in those jobs. >> there are some people who disagree. lastd week the national commission on military national and public service held hearings and a female marine iraq war vet explained her opposition to women in the military citing a high injury probability. here's what she had to say. >> one aspect in particular makes drafting women a losing proposition with negative ve returns. the wide disparity in women's injury rates. active duty military women average two to ten times the

injuries compared to military men. these rates have been constant over decades, despite our advancement in training, medicine and nutrition. here are three stats. a survey of one of the army striker brigade that was deployed to afghanistan in 2012 found 58 point 8% of women versus 21.4% of men were injured. american journal of sports medicine reported that quote risk of acl injury associated with military training is almost ten times higher for women than for men. a sex blind study by the british military found women were injured seven times more often than men while training to the same standards.sa these are the stats on military women who maintain high fitness standards and physical training demands. how is it fair to draft women for combat replacements when

these are the facts, and more importantly, how would this enhance our lethality against our enemies? a very fit woman on military standards are injured at such higher rates, drafting civilian women would mean even higher turnover, diminished effective combat readiness and fewer men andob women coming home alive. >> what's your response to her objections here?an >> well, so what she doesn't say and she cites the marine corps study of a few years ago. what she doesn't say and what fi was also in that study is that when they compared men and women of equal fitness levels they found injury rates to be the same. i think the key is screening, making sure people are of equal levels ofin fitness and equal capabilities. i think it's interesting she's so critical because she herself was a marine who served embedded in marine combat units in iraq

and yet she doesn't want women to be able to do the very same things that she did. so it's a little perplexing to me see her -- i had read her response before and was curious that she was one of these women, done these things and they now thinks women shouldn't be able to doo them.rn >> let's talk to charles who is calling from a oklahoma and calling on the independent line. charles, good morning. >> good morning, sir. thanks for taking my call. >> go ahead. >> yeah. >> we hear you, charles. go ahead. >> okay. i'm opposed to women being drafted for two reasons. one, we have -- it's been proven that the injury rate is much higher and the other is the fact that there are so many jobs in

military services, all branches that could be handled by women, but they need be volunteers and let's let the men be free to do the combat that's necessary. the test may not be necessary, maybe in certain l circumstance and that's about all i have to say except it should be left up to congress and if in their wisdom they decide women should register, then i still would be againstt it, i could go along with it because that would be the law of the land. >> there really wasn't a question there. so i don't really have any comment. >> well then let's go mike who is calling from iowa and mike's information military as well. mike, good morning. >> good morning. how are you this morning

>> i'm doing good. go ahead. >> women fought the right to burn their brain d.c. so damn right they should fight in combat. you know, i mean what excludes them? because they are women? i can show you 50 million studies about 50 million things and say 50 million other things, you know. let the women fight, man. they deserve it.ou they are part of our country. and that's all i have to say about that. when are you guys doing a show on trump's economy. the number came out. he's awesome.ot he's like putting the economy in a stratosphere that we haven't seen in decades. >> now,le one of the things tha we haven't talked about yet, under the current selective service system, you have to register within 30 days of your 18th birthday and failure to register has all types of

penalties including disqualification from federal student jobs and felony conviction, prison and fines. if women are included in the selective service should they face the same penalties as men?e >> absolutely. i have two sons who had register for selective service. i'm personally opposed to selective service broadly. but my sons had to register. and they went right into college. they moved multiple times. they were actually in violation of the rules of selective service because every time you move you're supposed to notify l them of your new address. they were repeated in violation of the rules. my youngest son is still in college and stillof in violatio. i've seen a number of problems with the existing selective service one of which is this kind of punishment process they leverage against young men and of course young women at this point are exempt. not just exempt they are

forbidden from registering. i have a daughter who served in the military. she wasn't allowed to register, my sons were forced to register. aifts peculiar system we have in place right now. >> let's go to jocelyn. jocelyn is also military. good morning. >> good morning, sir. thankk you so much. thank you for taking my call. what i would like to comment with regards to the lady that you have on tv right now is that women who are in patrol and i myself conducted patrols in the past, when you go to patrol, if you need to use the restroom, it tookok me five minutes to take f the gear and ten minutes to put it back on. soso how does that pan out with regards to physicality and how would that add to the lethality of the m military? >> before i turn to ellen which branch did you serve in? >> i currently serve.am i'm in active duty military. >> yes, that's an interesting

point she makes and actually there's been a number of work arounds that have been developed in the recent years for that. women can now pee standing up, frankly using a device -- there's a couple of them, female diverter and a she-wee. women get issued those at basic trainingng believe it or not an you can pee standing up. it has a container. rinse it off. put it back in your pocket. veryhe quickly. you don't have to remove your gear or equipment. we have women in the infantry, they swear by them. i talk to women tankers who say they can be inside tankers with a cover all, pe inside their tank with all the guys around them without anybody even knowing that they've used it because you pe inside a container in tank. men and women do the exact same thing standing up using this female diverter devise.ay

>> there are some changes that have to be made but you're saying that they are not insurmountable. >> they are already being made and a implemented. she's right. that was a problem. i remember myself taking on and off heavy equipment just to use thewe bathroom. it was a pain in the neck. now we've solved that problem.. >> let's talk to mark who is calling from pontiac, illinois on the republican line. mark, good morning. >> yeah. i was just wondering to know about -- >> mark you still there? >> yeah. i still think that women ought to have to sign up just like us guys do when we're 18 years old. >> so you don't have any ct objections to women serving in the military? >> no.tr i think they ought to go.

>> let's try barbara who is calling from greensboro, north carolina and barbara is also military. barbara, good morning. >> good morning. >> go ahead. >> i just want to say that i'm against the h draft in all form. thent u.s. has become a war machine. also i i just want to state tha in 1971, the u.s. government wanted me to have an abortion when abortions were illegal. i just thought people should know that. thank you.om >> let's try richard who is calling from washington on the independent line. richard, good morning. > good morning. >> richard, can you hear me? >> yes, i can. can you hear me? >> yeah, go ahead. >> yes, i believe back in the day women fought to get in the military and that.

>> richard, can you turn your television down for us? >> in the day women fought to get into the military, you know. they are u.s. citizens. know, i believe they should have the right plus the responsibility. >> well, we agree. >>an so, what is the next step r that commission you were talking about? when can we expect the that final report and what's going to be done with it once we see it? >> so the final report is due to be released about this time next year, earlyda 2020. i think it will have a number of recommendations and then up to congress. they are going to have to make a decision at that point because we will have studied it now for two years and have been three years since women could serve in all combat positions and now courts agreed women should register if men should register. i think the courts are going to force congress' hand but i think at that point congress will have

enoughio information based on wt this commission has discovered to make an informed decision. >> now, we talked a little bit about this earlier but many people have said that the draft should be eliminated completely. that the all-volunteer military force is the only way to go for the s american armed force.ti where does your group stand on the question of whether there should be a draft at all? >> okay. so we don't have a consensus in termser of our organization's viewsw on this. ian personally, my personal vie is that the draft and selective service is very undemocratic institution and if we have to force people, citizens to fight our wars then we probably shouldn't be in those wars in the first place. so that's my personal opinion. the organization doesn't have an organizational opinion except to say that whatever is good for semen good for women and we need to treat both populations the same because we'r' citizens of

the same country and these are citizens responsibilities. >> let's look at a few tweets. lisa rights as long as standards are not lowered for women then i see no problem with it. don't expect less from women. this tweet says, why do they want to put more americans at risk for some bankers war. and here's another tweet that reads untilct all women are required at age 18 to register with the selectiveal service fo the draft like the men have to do then women will not be truly equal with men. otherwise men will just be pretending that women are equal. so step up to the plate. >> unfortunately, women cannot register at their local post office. they are forbidden from registering. >> what would happen if an 18-year-old woman tried to register for selective service. >> they are rejected. they are told they can't. they can join the military and that's one of the reasons we have --or this has a big issue r

our organization. women can still serve. it doesn't preclude women from serving it just precludes them from registering. >> let's talk to brian who is calling from minnesota on the independent line. brian, good morning. >> good morning. >> go ahead. what's your question?y >> well, i believe that the army is only for single men. but if women want to register for selective service it should be at their option. if they want to, they should be able to, but they should not be required to. i don't believe that soldiers should have spouses and families. >> that would eliminate a lot of oury military today if we made people leave because they have spouses or families. >> have you all talked to actual

active military members about their feelings, about not, about women not being allowed in the draft. is there a divergence of opinion inside the military as well as outside? >> actually, the military is pretty universally in agreement that women should have to register. if men have to register, women should have to register. you only see this disagreement when you look outside the military at some of the civilian communities. ifo have had, heard women objec and say i don't want to register for the draft and my response to that is well most men don't want to register either, nor do they want to be drafted. so it's unfair to leverage that responsibility or put that on their shoulders and women get a pass. >> how would our draft numbers change ifs women are allowed t be in the selective service.w. what is the pool now and what would the pool become? > actually i don't know what the pool is now but it would

double the size of the pool. double the money we spend on selective service. they say it wouldn't completely double it because the system in place, just be morrow bust. we wouldn't have to create new systems. but the people that manage the selective service system i'm sure their numbers would have to grow. i believe it's $25 million a year which is relatively small too manage the selective servic system. >> let's. talk to paul who is calling from connecticut on the independent ngline. paul, good morning. >> hey, how are you doing? >> good.ho >> i think women should go in the military. serve a couple of years. a lot of kids are getting out of school. no discipline. they don't know where they want to go. they may make better decisions in life by having a couple of years, at least. >> now, paul, would you agree with the idea that all americans should serve to do some type of national service a