>> now, from the stonewall national monument in new york city, we mark the 50th anniversary of the 1969 stonewall riots, a key turning point in the stonewall -- in the gay rights movement. our guest is an editor of the stonewall riots, documented history. this was a coproduction with c-span's "washington journal." >> having to lie is the saddest and ugliest part of being a homosexual. when you have your first bad love experience, you cannot go to your brother or sister and say i am hurting. >> at first i was very guilty. then i realized that all the things that are taught you not only by society but the

psychiatrists is just a fit you into a mold. i rejected the mold and when i did i was happier. >> these are mostly independent organizations across the country. there are between 60 and 75 independent groups across the united states, maybe more because they keep growing up overnight. this is a unified event on the part of 20 to 30 organizations on the east coast. their differences are primarily in approach and tactic. certain groups tend to emphasize a very militaristic confrontation tactic. other groups will emphasize a more educational approach, going out into areas where what you might call people who live in middle america and don't know much about homosexuality. the groups provide different things. most groups provide services to our own people in need. this is a minor part of the effort. the major effort today is to

change the institutions. ♪ [chanting] host: a portion of the film documentary. this is what the stonewall inn looks like today. inside the sunday new york times is a look at the demonstrations that took place in july 1969. joining us from new york is mark steyn, the editor of the stonewall riots: the documentary history. thank you for being with us on c-span and c-span3. american history tv. we appreciate it. guest: thank you for having me. host: take us back 50 years ago this week. what happened?

guest: the police routinely rateided gay bars. that was certainly true in new york city. police began a raid. things proceeded in a fairly routine manner. some patrons were allowed to exit the bar and others were detained. it was common for police to detain bar owners, managers, bartenders, people of color, people who transgressed gender. in the lingo of the day, transvestites or drag queens. or street queens. and people who talked back or fought back. some people were detained inside the bar. others began exiting but that night, and at this time it was the early morning hours of june 28, patrons and pastors began

by beganssersb gathering on the street outside and as the police tried to bring those they had detained into police wagons, the crowd began to erupt and over the next few nights, riots, protests, demonstrations. at one point the police were trapped inside the bar until reinforcements arrived. riot control police were called to reestablish order on the streets. proceeded over the next several days. host: but why this location? why the stonewall inn and why june of 1969? what triggered this set of riots? guest: it is a complicated question. the stonewall inn was mafia owned and managed as were many gay bars in new york city. and some other american cities. there was a system of payoffs whereby the bar owners and

managers paid off the police in order to limit although never completely restrict police raids on the bars. the police would raid the bars even with this payoff system in place. there are a lot of different accounts about why the police raided the bar that night. the payoff system may have broken down. there was a mayoral election at the time and that was often a time when police would raid bars as part of a crackdown. -- as part of a crackdown on vice so the administration could give the appearance of promoting law & order. disorderly conduct, blackmailing, other allegations about the stonewall inn in particular. that is probably why the stonewall itself was targeted. why june 1969, that is a question that historians have been debating for a long time. in global terms, 1968 was a

major year that witnessed rebellions and revolutions around the world, as well as police reaction, state reactions, violent state repression. in some respects, we can see the civil rights in 1969 as an outgrowth of the world events happening. and then there were local and national developments. i mentioned the mayoral election. that was days, weeks before the riots took place. mayor john lindsay had lost the republican primary to be reelected. he was known to be a friend of the gay community in the late 1960's. he ended up winning the election in 1969 but he filled in a -- but he did so on a third-party ticket. in late june nobody knew he was going to end up winning. around that time there was also a series of police killings of lgbt people around

the country. los angeles, berkeley, oakland, and in new york city and that contributed to the rage and anger and the fury that lgbt people felt that night and in the days and weeks surrounding the stonewall riot. host: our guest is a professor of history at san francisco state university and he is the editor of this book, the stonewall riots, the documentary history. we will get to your calls and comments. we are dividing our phone lines regionally. we do have a line set aside for the lgbtq community. that number is (202)-748-8002. if you could for a moment, describe physically where you are situated. guest: directly behind me is the new stonewall national monument which was created during the obama administration. it is a small park. it is a small triangular park. behind the park is the stonewall inn itself.

it is a two-story building with beige stucco. and alongside of it is a three-story building that was also part of the stonewall inn. this is in greenwich village in lower manhattan. host: what do the monuments represent? guest: when obama referenced stonewall alongside seneca falls and selma in his inaugural address, it really signaled the recognition that lgbt activism, the lgbt movement was part of the broader aspirational struggles for social justice in the united states. that was a very powerful, symbolic statement on the part of obama as president of the united states in the first african-american president of the united states. and then establishing this monument here is another way of signaling the road that has been traveled over

the last 50 years or even longer to achieve lgbt equality, a still unfinished process i might add. it is quite complicated with the stonewall national monument because this is an action on the part of the federal government which for many many decades was quite , oppressive toward lgbt people. still, we have problems with federal policy. there is a kind of paradox that the federal government recognizes this space and yet continues to adopt policies. currently the best example might be the ban on transgender military service members. there is that paradox of recognition by the federal government but ongoing struggles and problems with the federal government. host: you mentioned the speech by president obama on january 21, 2013.

from the west front of the u.s. capital. here is what he said. [video clip] pres. obama: we the people declare today that the most evident of truths, that all of us are created equal. it is the star that guides us still, just as it guided our forbearers through seneca fells and selma and stonewall, just as it guided all of those men and women, sung and unsung who left footprints along this great mall to hear a preacher say that we cannot walk alone. to hear a king proclaimed that our individual freedom is bound to the freedom of every soul on earth. [applause] host: that was former president barack obama in 2013. one more point about your location because the stonewall inn itself is the best way to say it is a rather -- is a rather cozy bar. it is not very big is it?

guest: it is not very big in the large scheme of things but it was known in 1959 as one of the larger gay bars in new york city and greenwich village. it featured dancing, go-go boys and actually compared to the real holes in the wall, the stonewall inn was known to be relatively spacious. host: why were these location so -- and why were these locations so important at that time to the gay and lesbian community? guest: in 1969, same-sex sex was basically illegal in 49 states. out of 50 american states. there were also laws -- federal, state and local laws that regulated lgbt speech, lgbt participation in many aspects of public life. difficult to get government jobs at the local, state and federal levels in 1969. bars were a congregation place

where lgbt people could come together, socialize together, enjoy time together and in that sense, some people argued that the bar was for the lgbt community what the church was for the african-american community or what the factory was for the labor movement. a central space for gathering, becoming active and developing ideas about social justice and equality. host: in order to get a sense of how the media covered the gay and lesbian community back in the 1960's, i want to share with you a portion of a now controversial cbs news documentary, one in which dan rather has apologized for. mike wallace in 1967 -- the title of the program was called the homosexuals. [video clip] >> most americans are repelled by the mere mention of homosexuals. survey showed two out of three americans look upon homosexuals with disgust, discomfort or fear.

one out of 10 say hatred. a vast majority believe homosexuality is an illness. only 10% say it is a crime. and yet here is the paradox. the majority of americans favor legal punishment for homosexual acts performed in private between consenting adults. the homosexual, bitterly aware of his rejection, responds by going underground. they frequent their own clubs and bars and coffee houses where they can act out in the fashion they want to, where they can escape the disapproving eyes of society. -- eyes of the society that they call straight. host: that is from cbs news. mark steyn, i know you are familiar with this program. as you hear that and see that, your reaction? guest: the media was changing in the second half of the 60's, as was the lgbt movement. so, i think that program was thee soundly criticized by

pre-stonewall movement but there were other media stories that were more accepting and more open to change. one example would be the new york times magazine published a major story called civil rights and the homosexual, in 1967. the wall street journal in 1968 featured a public story on the gay rights movement. more generally, the lgbt movement had success in the second half of the 60's, and that was certainly true in new york city. under the lindsay administration, there was decline in sexual trafficking -- in sexual entrapment practices on the part of police, a decline in arrests for sexual solicitation, decisions that allowed gay bars a little more freedom to exist and prosper and thrive. things were changing in the second half of the 1960's. when we turn to the civil rights themselves, the media reports were interesting, conflicting and ever-changing.

in that first week, the new york times, the new york post, and the new york daily post did cover the civil rights but it was buried news, it was not prominent. the village voice did major stories on the stonewall riots and had reporters on the scene, even trapped inside the bar during the riots. those were much more significant stories but it was really the alternative press and the lgbt press that covered the riots more sympathetically, more comprehensively, and those of -- and those are the stories that historians rely on, along with oral history, police reports and photographs, for rounding out the picture of what happened that week. host: one of which is the documentary which we are featuring on c-span3's american history tv. our guest is mark steyn joining us from new york. he is also the author of rethinking the gay and lesbian movement in the city of sisterly and brotherly love as we talk

about the stonewall inn riots 50 years ago. tom is on the phone from flint, michigan. good morning. caller: good morning to both of you gentlemen. this will be pretty brief. just a little context. i am a navy veteran, a gay navy veteran. i grew up in a very catholic household. this issue is portrayed many different ways by many different folks and corners of society, but what it really is, it's about love. it is not about sex, so much. it's about love and good luck to anybody who is determined to fight love because you are really fighting quite a force.

coming from a religious background, the last thing i will mention is lgbtq issues are often by the religious right mentioned in the same breath as oh, abortion and the culture of death and things of this nature, but there is so much in the bible that is taken way out of context. it is adhered to selectively. it's about love, period. have a wonderful weekend. if you could stay on the line for a minute. have you personally felt discrimination as an openly gay american? caller: i'm glad you asked. i value other viewers' time as well as you gentlemen. i served 20 years in the navy, retired, and i guess about 50%

of it was under so-called quote, don't ask, don't tell. the other 50%, like my first 10 years was under the republican preferred do ask and we will ask and do tell. that was particularly repressive and draconian. it could land you out on the street out of a job in the military extremely easily. i think bill clinton takes a lot of grief for don't ask, don't tell but it was a huge step forward from what was in place before that. the last half of my sentence will be repression, growing up in a particularly religious household, you better believe it.

thank you for asking. host: thank you. mark steyn, what are you hearing in his story? guest: i think it is interesting to see the movement as focused on issues of love. the pre-stonewall movement we generally call the homo-phile movement. "phile" was chosen as the key term because it referenced love rather than sex. i would say the gay liberation movement that developed after stonewall, and this is something that began in the months before the riots, places equal emphasis on love, intimacy and sex. sex was central to the early gay liberation as they wanted the legalization of sex, they wanted their sexual expression and identities to be recognized, affirmed and validated. for at least a few years, sexual issues were quite central to the

movement immediately after the stonewall riots. host: post stonewall riots, here is a look at some of the highlights for the gay, lesbian and transgender communities in 1973. the american psychiatric association declaring homosexuality no longer a mental illness. and then, in 1982, in the first two years of the reagan administration, the cdc using the term aids for the first time. in 1969, bill clinton signing the defense of marriage act. in 2011, president obama revoking "don't ask, don't tell." in 2015, the supreme court legalizing same-sex marriage. the pentagon one year later ends the ban on transgender people serving openly in the military. in 2019 president trump involving that ban transgender service. let's get to our next caller. caller: i am an activist in new

york city and i am transgender. i am kind of high up in the lgbt community here. i came out of the military to new york in 1986. i met marsha p johnson down by the village and i know that the gay community did not like the drag queens because they were trying to be with the straight community back then. marsha p johnson was a marginalized black trans woman and a sex worker who was at the stonewall riots fighting with the cops. i noticed that most of the photos and videos that we see, am i talking? host: you are on the air. caller: ok. thanks. host: did you have another question or comment? caller: i wonder why he does not mention the black drag queens who were in front of the bar fighting that night like marsha p johnson. sylvia rivera was also a part of the gay rights movement.

host: thank you. guest: the caller is right. as far as we can determine, some of the leading roles in the riots were played by african-americans, puerto ricans, trans people, drag queens. it is still uncertain as to whether they represented the majority of the people who participated in the riots but there are many accounts that place them at the key moments, leading the riots, displaying a real courage, a campy courage some might say. some individuals who were often credited with instigating or leading the riots, sylvia rivera, marsha p johnson, there are still conflicting accounts about when they were there, whether they were there. marsha p johnson in many of her accounts explained that she was not there when the riot started but she got there sometime later. if we take her at her word, she

played an important role that night and certainly other people of color did, trans people did, but she may not have been there right when the riots started. host: let's go to dave in new york city. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. i was 20 years old and grew up on long island, i was a college student upstate and i would hitch a ride down and go to the bars. julius was the other bar. it was strange to me, being sort of macho, a college student, weightlifter, but stonewall was an amazing place, and i would go in early in the evening before we went down toward the river, christopher street, toward the new bar, danny's which i have

not heard mentioned. i went in about 10:00 in the evening to stonewall, maybe after julia, so we would go and walk through and it seemed all right, it seemed normal early in the evening. i walked down to danny's. well, when i came back two hours later and it was, and i have not heard this in the commentary, but the queens were the bravest. they were lighting garbage pails on fire, from the outside and throwing them in through the big window and the police were inside at that point. i remember standing on the bumpers of two cabs that were parked right there in front of it. that was just the first night. i don't think i was there on the

second night. i was back on the eyelid and it was hard to -- i was back on the island and it was hard to get back in. that is what i will never forget. the police were sort of trapped inside at the point that i got back and they were lighting garbage cans and throwing them in the window. that is all i want to say. it is really true. it got a little better after that, a bit but it took years to get to where we are now. years and years. decades and decades. i am 70 now. host: thank you for weighing in and sharing your recollections from 50 years ago. mark steyn, your reaction. guest: my book reprints 30 media reports and other accounts of the stonewall riots from 1969. it is interesting to see that the first accounts provided by the new york times, daily news and the new york post referred

to the rioters as homosexuals or young homosexuals but within a week, the lgbt press was referring to the leading role played by what at the time were referred to as transvestites or drag queens or street queens and the most extensive coverage of that was in the local gay newsletter of the mattachine society. a local gay rights organization. interestingly, the trans periodicals of the day, two of which were the erickson educational foundation transvestia did not cover the riots, but the gay oriented managing society -- mattachine society newsletter -- we also have translations 50 years later. today we tend to police the boundaries between gay and trans but in 1969, many people like marsha p johnson and sylvia

rivera were comfortable referring to themselves as both gay and transvestite. they did not see those things as necessarily in opposition or mutually exclusive. host: to our viewers turning -- tuning in, we are looking 50 years back to the stonewall riots. a turning our guest from new point. york is mark steyn, the author of a new book that looks back at what happened 50 years ago. we have been talking about new york city police officers and the police commissioner, james o'neill, on twitter, with this apology for the way officers 50 years ago handled the situation. [video clip] >> it would be irresponsible of me as we go through world pride month, not to speak of the events at the stonewall inn in june of 1969. i will not stand up here and pretend to be an expert on what happened at stonewall. i do know what happened should not have happened. the actions taken by the nypd

were wrong, plain and simple. the actions and the laws were discriminatory and oppressive, and for that i apologize. [applause] >> to the lgbtq community, they -- this would never happen with the nypd of 2019. host: mark steyn, a reaction to that apology from the new york city police commissioner. guest: in general terms, i think the apology is a good first step , but it is just that, a first step. i would like to see similar apologies by the police commissioners of the many cities where lgbt people were killed in 1969 by the police. that would include los angeles, berkeley, california, oakland. those would be steps alongside the actions of the new york city police commissioner.

but, in addition, we are seeing leadership from city mayors, governors. and all the way to the federal government. we still have only a few states where lgbt education is mandatory in public schools. we still have policies in local, state and federal levels with respect to trans people that could be addressed. where is the funding for the lgbt history education, the lgbt history museum? there is an effort underway in new york city, a long-standing lgbt history museum in san francisco. we could see more of those projects funded by cities, states and local governments. more research into the history of lgbt abuse and harassment, including by official government authorities. those would be steps that would build on what is just a symbolic apology at this point. : richard, good morning to

you from new jersey. caller: i wanted to discuss the beginning of my coming out and going into new york. i used to go to the gay pride parades, but only at night because i did not want to go near there. friend, who was a schoolteacher, said he cannot go to the gay pride parade until the evening time because he was afraid he would definitely lose his job as a schoolteacher. he was a spanish and italian teacher in new jersey. he absolutely loved his job as a foreign language teacher. i do remember enjoying halloween on christopher street. then i think a big change was during the gay men's health crisis. i was with a friend, tony, in a

storefront when they first started the game men's health crisis. they were setting up the telephone lines, and things like that. these men that were much older than me, i probably was 21, 22. tony said, because everyone was putting their name down on the piece of paper, and tony leaned over to them and said, you know, he is extremely young. he has petrified his name will be on anything. so, in that storefront, with a gay men's health crisis, i did not put my name on the piece of paper because the first thing i reign ands the nazi the gay concentration camps and that i would be put in a camp and possibly killed for being gay. host: we should point out. christopher street is directly behind you. that has been an iconic place for gays and lesbians. it is also located where the

inn is situated. what is your reaction? guest: one of the things that is interesting is for us to look back at the early pride marches and protests and parades. the first of which took place in the summer of 1970 to commemorate the first anniversary of the stonewall riots. there had been earlier commemorations in philadelphia in front of independence hall on july 4. those began in 1965 and were held for five consecutive years. the decision was made by movement activists in the fall of 1969 to switch the annual recognition of the struggle from philadelphia and independence hall to stonewall and new york city. that became the -- what we know now as the gay pride parade. but eventually spread around the united states and around the world. those early pride marches, pride 1971, 1972, and 1973,

it was quite brave to participate. it was uncertain if they would be violence from harassers who might come and confront the participants. it was unclear whether the police would grant permits. in fact, in los angeles in 1970, it was only shortly before what was called christopher street west that the parade organizers received official police permits to conduct the march. they only did so under a judge's order. those first recognitions and commemorations of the stonewall rebellion required a lot of courage on the part of organizers and participants. many of us believe that is really when the stonewall riots acquired the significance they have today. there had been other lgbt demonstrations and protests

before stonewall. it is because of the annual commemorations every summer that have gone on every year. host: i want to put one thing in perspective. walter jenkins, who at the time was one of the closest aides to orsident lyndon johnson, -- heim for 25 years, worked with him for 25 years, he was married, the father of six children. this is a photograph of walter jenkins who was forced out of the white house when he had a sexual liaison at the ymca in washington, d.c. he was charged with a crime on morals charges. i mention that in 1964, from where we are today with pete buttigieg and some of the top tier democrats. what does that arc of history tell you? guest: openly lgbt candidates began running for office in the united states before stonewall. they were not generally successful.

there began to be successes in the early 1970's. the first were in ann arbor, michigan. city councilmembers came out as gay and lesbian. then ran and won elections. there was a state senator elected in massachusetts. elaine noble and harvey milk winning election in the late 1970's for the board of supervisors in san francisco. we begin to see success in running for congress. shortly after, a few governors by now. there still has been a limit to that kind of success to electoral and appointed office. we have yet to have an open lgbt cabinet member. lgbtt to have an open president or vice president. host: with the country likely

elect a gay man as president? guest: it is an interesting question. i think pete buttigieg is showing the country it is imaginable. it is possible. i would also remind everyone we have yet to have a woman president of the united states. there are many groups in american society that have yet to be represented at the highest levels of government. i think it's certainly possible and maybe likely that in our lifetimes, there will be an openly lgbt member of the supreme court, vice president, or president. host: according to "the advocate" there are 10 openly gay or lesbian members of the house and senate. we will show you that list. we hear from dan in ontario, california. good morning. caller: hello, sorry, it's ontario, canada. i was wondering, here in canada, it's basically become a nonissue. i noticed in the united states

there is a lot of attention paid to even the terminology that is used. like lgbtq. it is unfamiliar here. i am wondering if i could get your opinion on the difference between how it is dealt with and the language used and how it has evolved. host: thank you, dan. guest: i actually lived in canada, in toronto for 16 years. i know something about what you're talking about. thinking back to the stonewall moment, it was in that moment that a number of countries began to partially decriminalize consensual same-sex sex act. right beforecase the stonewall riots for canada and wales. controversy is a that has been going on in canada about the formal federal

government apology for the criminalization of lgbt people and the unfinished nature of those reforms that occurred in the late 1960's and early 1970's. i understand there has been action on removing from the canadian criminal code some of the other criminal statutes that have been used to target lgbt people. it is important to remember it is not just sodomy that was criminalized. same-sex sex. lgbt people were harassed and abused. disorderly conduct, lewd conduct, obscenity law, in canada, body house legislation and a variety of other criminal statutes. host: you are doing a great job. i know the trucks behind you can sometimes drown you out.

we appreciate you. you were at the park that is no part of the national park service on christopher street, directly across from the stonewall inn. it is open to the public. our guest is marc stein. he earned his doctorate from the diversity of pennsylvania. caller: good morning to professor stein. i am an avid supporter of c-span. i would like to say a quick story. i knew about stonewall and how much of a remarkable movement it started, the catalyst for the lgbtq movement. i was walking by myself one day in manhattan. i have my mind on a million different things and i happened to come across the stonewall memorial park. it is very -- it is a very good feeling knowing i was standing

inadvertently in the middle of a catalyst for such a remarkable social justice movement. i was taken aback. just in brief, i want to thank c-span and professor stein for shedding such a positive and transformative light on the subject and how remarkable the movement has been. thank you all again for your time. i appreciate it. host: tom, thank you for the call. his point and move it one step further as an educator. how do you teach stonewall? how should teachers educate this generation in terms of what happened and its significance 50 years later? guest: many of us have been trying to improve lgbt history education in colleges, universities, and high schools for some years. it is important for her to be integrated into our general narrative of american history. it is one thing for there to be courses on lgbt history.

-- history in colleges and universities. it is another thing entirely when lgbt history and the history of civil rights gets incorporated into the general american history courses. a number of us are working hard on that right now. many of us try to teach that stonewall followed 20 years of political organizing by lgbt people. there was a pre-stonewall movement. many of us try to teach a broader history of sexual and gender difference and variety in american history. stretching back centuries. of course, it is important to follow the stories after the stonewall riots. how did the gay liberation movement develop in the 1970's? lesbian feminist movement, the transgender liberation movement. how did people of color organize autonomous lgbt movement, growing particularly strong in the late 1970's?

how did that change with the -- in the 1980's with the aids crisis? what were the some of the changes in the more recent decades? the complications of what it means to be recognized by local, state, and federal government and the possibility that liberation might be limited, might be compromised, might be unfinished in a variety of ways. that is what a lot of us try to teach when we emphasize lgbt history. host: you have spent probably more time than most historians looking back at the events of stonewall. what has surprised you the most? guest: i think the 50 year commemoration. many of us anticipated there would be an explosion of public interest. i was working on my new book and i think maybe i underestimated the extent of the public interest. that is gratifying.

it is an opportunity for us to teach about stonewall specifically and also about broader lgbt history and broader history of social justice movements and connect the past to the present. that is an important aspect. it is also frustrating, we do see many of the myths that circulate about stonewall, claims that the civil rights started the lgbt movements. when we know there was a pre-existing movement. we see a lot of photographs circulated on the internet that purport to be from the stonewall riots that are not from the stonewall riots. we actually have quite limited photographic evidence of what was going on. really only one image public in the new york daily news that that captures the confrontation between the police and the rioters. the internet creates a problem -- of course it creates

opportunities -- but creates a problem or problematic representation being presented on the internet that can go viral and spread. then we end up with misinformation and misinterpretation. host: our next caller is from ithaca, new york. welcome back to the conversation. good morning. are you with us? caller: yes, i am. can you hear me? host: we can now. go ahead with your question or comment. caller: thank you first of all for everyone behind-the-scenes who put us all on everyday. pastor michael vincent crea, and my ministry is ecological literian, oneworld life systems. stonewall needs not just to be a historical site. it needs to be an insight into our history.

mr. stein i think would concur that not only the commemoration of these events, i did not come out until i left the seminary in 1983. i went into the peace corps and i won the most comprehensive case in the peace corps when i was wrongly fired. one of the things they fired me for was being gay in senegal. also, i have my masters divinity. my last paper at catholic university was same gender marriages. what we do not realize is that what we need is a vehicle of veracity with a capacity to uphold those self-evident truths. what we would like i would think we need, with all of the talk

and everything is good about the reparations, about voting rights, about equal access. i got fired by trinity church, standing up for a south african transgendered woman to use the woman's bathroom. we need human rights court. host: i'm going to stop you there and give our chat -- give our guest a chance to respond. thank you for sharing your story. guest: one of the things the caller emphasized was religion. oppressive roles played by religion and potentially liberating roles played by religion. before the stonewall riots, religious leaders were important allies of the lgbt movement along with, i would say the american civil liberties union, which was perhaps the most important ally for the pre-stonewall movement. in san francisco, there was a very influential counsel on religion and homosexuals, which featured a number of ministers who allied with the lgbt activists of that day, and really made important,

groundbreaking efforts in california. those efforts continued after stonewall. i think there is often a tendency now to think of the religious community as hostile to or at odds with lgbt aspirations. but in fact, religious communities are divided. we have had for several decades, denominations who were in the forefront of fighting for lgbt writes and others in the forefront of opposing lgbt liberation. even within some of those to number rations that have been hostile, there are divisions within. efforts within even the catholic church or the mormon church to promote lgbt rights. religious communities in the united states and elsewhere have been an important site of struggle. sites ofh the other struggles we think about. our school, the media, popular cultures, law, politics. host: 50 years after the riots

which moved into early july, what does the rainbow flag, which is behind you, represent you as a historian? guest: the flag emerged as one of several symbols and icons of the lgbt movement. the many colors was meant to celebrate the diversity of the lgbt movement and community. to emphasize it is not an all-white community, not all middle-class community, it's not all men, but rather encompasses people from all backgrounds, all social groups in american society and the global community. there have been calls to expand the colors on the rainbow flag to even further emphasize the diversity of lgbt communities, movement, activism. host: tony in denver. good morning. welcome to the program. caller: thank you.

mr. stein, brilliant presentation on stonewall. only had a small understanding of it before the show. i find this highly informative. i have a couple of questions for you. one, how large is the lgbtq community? how large is the demographic? i am sure the statistics are probably hard to get out because of closeted people, but i would like to know that. second, as a historian, are you concerned -- i am concerned as a white male about injustice for anybody who is not white over the last couple years. i am wondering that as an historian, if you have a view, are we going backwards as a society, not just for lgbtq, but just in general in terms of social justice movements? answers of those things would be helpful. thank you. host: thank you for the call. mr. stein? guest: on the first question,

quantification is very difficult. we have lots of surveys stretching back to the kinsey studies in the 1940's in the 1950's. if the question is as narrowly, we tend to get reports of one to three to five to 10% of the population. but if the question is asked broadly, we tend to have much more larger numbers. when we think of the term queer, that is meant to represent a broader array of people. it represents anyone who has ever had a moment of same-sex desire. everybody who has ever transgressed genders in any aspect of their lives, we start to get much much larger percentages. we might even say 100% of the population is potentially clear, , although not everybody lives that life and claims that identity. it really depends on how we ask the question. how we define each of those letters of the alphabet. with respect to the current

moment and whether we are making progress, taking a step back, i think in many respects, these things tend to happen in cycles. there were important reforms during the obama administration. as we have seen in many areas of social justice, retrenchment and reaction during the trump administration. there have been limits to that because we have three branches of the federal government. we have state and local government, some of which are continuing to make important strides. it is complicated. sometimes we have two steps forward, one step back. sometimes we have one step forward and two steps back. it depends on the question we are asking. in certain aspects of law, there has been progress. in other aspects, there has been retrenchment. to go back to your first question, the notion that we each have to claim strict

identities and avoid dealing with the complexity of gender and sexual fluidity, maybe we are not at such a great moment. i only see more and more insistence that people claim strict identities and don't embrace possible transformation, possible fluidity of gender and sexuality across life courses and across history. host: this headline from the new york daily news. it reads as follows. "homo nest raided. queen bees are stinging mad." marc stein, what do you think of that headline? guest: it was characteristic of some of the mainstream coverage of the stonewall riots. my book offers 30 accounts of the riots from that summer. we get to compare how mainstream

newspapers and magazines covered the riots to alternative papers like the village voice. the east village other. then west coast periodicals like the berkeley barb and berkeley tribe. then we get to see lgbt press coverage. you would not have seen a headline like that in lgbt newspapers, magazines and newsletters of the day. this was a way for mainstream newspapers to get readers, to get interests, it can be complicated to use those as sources. they are important sources. they help us understand how it is that people learned about stonewall. interestingly, the national magazines of the day, time and newsweek, did not cover stonewall until the fall. until october. it took several months before the magazines of the united states saw stonewall as something significant and worthy of coverage. host: you spoke earlier about

the importance of the bars and taverns for the gay and lesbian community. nancy juncker is a professor at seneca university. from the c-span video library, looking back at the role they played for the lgbt community. [video clip] >> gays and lesbians who came of age during the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's speak over and over about how they risk their livelihoods by going to gay bars because the gay bars save their lives. they kept them from despairing that they were the only ones. they kept them from believing that society was right, that they were sick and criminal and would be better off dead. in the bars and nightclubs, they found hookups and one night stands. they also found partners and lovers and friends and people who accepted them as they were. they did not have to carry out the exhausting work of

pretending to be straight. they could be themselves. being true to yourself is very precious. it is worth a lot of risk. lesbians during this period suffered double discrimination. even most gay men saw women as inferior. in the days before widespread feminism, the lesbian bar was the truly rare place where women were not pressured to cater to men. a lesbian in the 1940's said, we can throw off our girdles, dresses, our high heels. that was the uniform virtually required of all women. lesbians could wear pants and be free from straight men's unwanted sexual attention. [end of video clip] host: that is from nancy juncker, a santa clara professor from the c-span video library. i want to move beyond the riots and ask you, what happened next

after the stonewall demonstrations? guest: initially, the existing gay rights organization in new york city, the mattachine society, tried to harness the energy unleashed by the riots. there were follow-up protests and demonstrations in greenwich village and queens, new york where a public park had been the site of harassment by vigilantes of lgbt people. it became clear that the older homo file movement organizations were not going to be the main vehicles for the future. there emerged new organizations. the first one was the gay liberation front in new york city. there was the queens liberation front. a little while later, radical lesbians formed. representing lesbian feminist politics. groups like third world gay revolution formed, representing

people of color. then the gay activist alliance in new york, which was a little less radical than the initial gay liberation front. gay liberation front and the others i mentioned were very committed to alliances with the black panthers, the antiwar movement, with women's liberation. they participated in marches and demonstrations of those other groups. they were calling for radical restructuring of american society. a sexual restructuring, social restructuring and political restructuring. the gay activist alliance and in contrast decided to focus more exquisitely on gay rights. that really set the trend for what followed -- more exclusively on gay rights. that set the trend for the next few years. very influential, active organization in the country. host: i may ask you about the role of edie windsor in her role the defenseng doma,

of marriage act. why was her case so significant? guest: over time, the issues and priorities of the lgbt movement changed. the more mainstream aspects of the lgbt movement began prioritizing inclusion in the military, inclusion in marriage, inclusion in family life, inclusion in religion. that was contested within the lgbt movement. many people thought the radical revolutionaries of the gay liberation movement were antiwar. they did not want inclusion in military. they were opposed to monogamy and conventional family life. there is that tension. nevertheless, for many people, the goal of the lgbt movement was broad acceptance, equality in all aspects of life. -- of american life. edie windsor and the struggle for same-sex marriage was an aspect of that part of the lgbt

movement. was essential in establishing or achieving this major long-standing goal of the lgbt movement, which was for those people who want to marry, for those lgbt people who want to marry, that they have the legal right to do so. host: in 2016 during one of the gay pride marches, rangers, those from the national park service joining in the gay pride movement. what does that tell you about where police and authorities were in 1969 and where we are today? guest: i think today there are conflicting feelings about the participation of the police, the military, elected officials, representatives of local, state, and federal government. on the one hand, it represents acceptance and inclusion. it is a far cry from the situation 50 years ago.

on the other hand, have those levels of government, local, state and federal, fully acknowledged the long-standing acts of harassment, abuse and violence committed in the name of local, state, and federal governments? are they fully addressing today's cutting edge issues? there is the double-edged aspect of participation of local, state, and federal officials , including representatives of the national park service. are they doing everything they could be to make up for past wrongs and to address ongoing struggles? host: 1/2 a minute, the cover of your book represents what in your mind? why did you select it? guest: it is a photograph from the week of stonewall riots. it is actually a staged photograph.

as i mentioned earlier, we really only have one image of the confrontation between protesters and the police. we do not even have the original. most versions people will see is a grainy image of a newspaper photograph. the fred mcdaris photographs were staged. mostly taken on the evening of the 28th. so the second night of rioting. these were a group of participants who the photographer gathered and staged on a staircase on this very street and they represent the diversity of the participation. we see people who look to us to be african-american, puerto rican. we see trans people. we see the youthful energy of the participants. we see camping. we see same-sex affection and intimacy in the series of photographs. in some respects, it captures some of what was going on during

the week of the rioting. host: author, historian, and history professor at san francisco state university, marc stein, who is joining us from christopher street in greenwich village, new york. thank you for being with us. guest: thank you for having me. 202-748-8000 -- are watchingu american history tv, all we can and every week and on c-span3. >> next, we talk about the economics of slavery. she is the author of "the price for their pound of flesh: the value of the enslaved, from the wound to grave, in the building of the nation." this interview was recorded at the organization of american historians annual meeting in philadelphia. >> where does this come from? >> it came from different parts of west africa. they were n