coverage online on c-span.org or you can listen live with the free c-span radio app. thinking of participating in the c-span student cam 2020 competition, but you have never made a documentary film before? no problem. we have resources on our getting started an students pages to get started and for producing information and links for the library. teachers will find materials on the student page to introduce the student cam to students. >> my advice for anybody who wants to compete this year, find a topic that you are passionate about and pursue it as much as you can. >> this year, we are wanting you to introduce a short documentary for the subjects that you want the candidates to address. c-span will address a total of

$20,000 in prizes. >> go get a camera and start filming and produce the best video you can produce. >> visit studentcam.org for more information today. >> as the 2020 democratic presidential candidates discuss criminal reform, we will take up that topic this morning, and put up the phone numbers on the screen. we are joined at the desk by former maryland governor bob ehrlich, and he is a member of the right on crime, and we may be joined by derae mckessen, and founder of the group campaign zero, and we are expecting him to join us at some point here, and until then with bob ehrlich about that issue. >> just the two of ous. >> and we know that you were

dealing with it as the governor of maryland, but currently the group is right on crime. and explain what is right on crime, and it is a conservative take on criminal justice reform. >> it is counter intuitive to some, but not the me in fact, and it is one of the numerous groups, and probably the leading group of the philosophically inclined conservatives who believe that the criminal justice is a priority issue in the country, and believe that anything manmade can and is broken. and that we should do our best to achieve one central goal, justice. this has been an issue that has been running around intellectual circles for decades. we were talking off camera about how this is the only purple issue of the time. there is a little bit of the nixon goes the china element to this. i found this out when i went to

maryland and before it was cool and people were talking about it, and before it was the purple issue. my staff would say, say again why we are doing this, and when i say this, it is collateral consequences of the pardons and commutations. my democratic friends and i came from the maryland legislature as you know, and i went to washington as a member of congress and came back as governor and i have a lot of friends in the democratic side of the legislature and they would whisper, bob, i love what you can doing, but you are a republican, and i can't give you a lot of credit here, but it is good stuff. and by the way, this is the specter of willie horton is still around the issue. and for the younger viewers who may not know who willie horton is. >> you can explain. >> and infamous, and i believe vice president gore actually ran the first ad against mike dukakis with it, and i think

that i could be correct, but i believe i am correct on that, and the bottom line is that willie horton is not a collateral consequence, but he got out of some prison program early in massachusetts and committed at least one murder. he became the symbol of soft on crime. so when i talk about the nixon goes to china analogy, it is some right of the center republican governors and 10, 15 years ago including myself, and not necessarily coming together, and on our own saying, you know what, the time is due, and we do some sentencing reform, and reentry reform, and so do some job train, and collateral consequences and commutations, and we can do these things. when i talk about nixon going to china, it is more in the context of the of the republican governors felt more about doing this stuff than the liberal

governors who were fearful of the repercussions more so than philosophically. >> and we saw the republicans come together at the white house last year and the first step act was signed into law. this is what it does. it reduces the mandatory sentencing guidelines for certain drug felonies and allows the judges more latitude for sentencing non-violent drug offenders and reduces sentences in some cases, and makes the fair act of 2010 and we can get into that and expanding the prison employment programs, and that first step act is coming up on the first birthday. it is just a few months ago that the deputy attorney general jeffrey rosen gave an update on the implementation of that act. i wanted to show you what he said at this press conference at the department of justice. >> first is the reduction of

senescense sentences and the release of inmates back into the communities. since september 2018, approximately 1,618 inmates convicted of crack-cocaine offenses have received a sentence reduction as a result of the retro resensing the act of 2010. and additionally, inmates have been placed in the home confinement programs, and starting today at prisons around the country, nearly 3100 inmates are being released from the bop custody due to the increase of the good time credits applied to reducing the sentences under the first step act. that is the first item that i wanted to cover. second, i am pleased to announce that department of justice has redirected $75 million in

existing resources to fully fund the first step act of 2019. we will continue to work with congress and the administration to make sure that first step funding is appropriated for 2020 and underscore the attorney general and i both recently toured federal prisons, and we saw firsthand the tremendous value in quality programs for inmates. the attorney general has directed additional funding for inmate programs for fy '19, including resources to expand vocational training and job readiness programs, to increase the availability of medication assisted treatment, to support programs tailored to the needs of the female inmate population, and to increase education opportunities for inmates. now, third, as called for by the first step act, we are today announcing a new risk and needs assessment system designed to

assess inmates' risk over recidivism and to identify their individualized needs to reduce the risks of reoffending when their terms are up. through the system, inmates will have the opportunity to receive earned time credits in addition to good time credit and to participate in evidence-based recidivism reduction programs. >> governor, the deputy attorney general quantifying the first step program. >> something this town doesn't do enough of, by the way. >> do you think it's been successful? could it be more successful? and what is the second step? >> let's get to the first step first. in this town, again, sometimes it's counterintuitive. people have an idea. they have a concept. there's a coalition. there's press conferences. there's a vote. there's bill signings. you go home and say, i'm great, vote for me, i created this

program, this is my initiative, and nobody measures whether, one, government should be doing it in the first place, and two, whether it's going to be effective or not. so here we go just a few months later in regards to this major legislative achievement, and we have numbers. we talked a little off camera about crack powder. that was an issue when i was in the house. many years ago now, actually, i got out of the house in 2002, but i remember the debates on the floor. it was a racial issue, quite frankly. so there's so much not just to this act but also to the issue generally. as i said, it's sentencing reform, it's prison reform, it's re-entry reform. nobody talks about re-entry. maybe the most important issue of all because at some point with at 90 some percent of incarcerated felons are going to re-enter our society. in what condition are they going

to be in when they walk those sidewalks in your neighborhood? that's a pretty important question for government, for policymakers. >> bob erlich, former governor of yamaryland, with us this morning. we're taking your calls as well. 202-7 202-748-8000 if you're in the central or eastern time zones. special phone line set up in this segment if you have experience in the criminal justice system. it's 202-748-8002. governor erlich, with the group signatory of the principles of the group right on crime, come back to that group for a second. talk about what conservative criminal justice reform means. >> for some, the motivation here are socioeconomic. for some, the motivation is racial. i think it's fair to say for those of us right on crime, the motivation is justice.

we know that criminal justice systems, state and federal, are man made. they can be broken. they can give us unfair results. injustice being the enemy of what government should be. so particularly as a governor, by the way, you have extraordinary pair. some state constitutions give x extraordinary power to correct wrong. we took that very seriously. for the most part, unilaterally, we focused on pardons and come youations. there's not a whole lot of innocent people in jail, but there are people in jail for longer than they should be, quite frankly. again, a multifaceted issue here. i would just ask your listeners to sort of categorize the issues into these general categories of sentencing reform and prison

reform and then re-entry. >> on sentence and reform, the argument that reform advocates make is that longer sentences are leading to more crimes. explain that. how does less incarceration translate into more public safety? >> you'd become a professional criminal. at some point, you're going to get out. it's not that complicated. that's the argument. particularly in nonviolent crimes. as you know, this bill increased the predicate offenses that would qualify you for some of the more egregious sentencing. what i really liked about this bill was revisitation of the issue of mandatory minimum. lots of judges -- i'm sure you've interviewed judges over the years. they love discretion. the general public does not necessarily love vesting judges with discretion in these cases, but i remember we debated in the state legislature three-time loser daytime housebreakers,

okay. the predicate was three-time loser that qualifies as a crime of violence that led to a 25 no parole. is that fair? now, do you love daytime housebreakers? no. is that an egregious crime of violence? no. should a daytime housebreaker be doing 25 years no parole? no. >> wasn't one of the original arguments on mandatory minimums that it would make sentencing more fair because regardless of your race, your color, you would be sentenced to the same thing for breaking the same crimes. >> and that's true, except again, you're creating mitt romney of a professional class of criminal. it's the same issue we had talking about juvenile justice reform in state legislatures in the '90s. there are many saveables in the juvenile system. i call them saveables. that's my term. to the extent you want to increase the predicate offenses that would get them waived into

adult court, okay. just realize a by-product is more professional criminals. because they're going to learn how to be criminals in adult court. obviously in a juvenile system, you have a better chance to catch them and correct them and save them early on. >> bob erlich our guest this morning, taking your phone calls. former governor of maryland, worked in that building behind for several years as well. taking your calls this morning on the topic of criminal justice reform, heading into a weekend when the democratic candidates and president trump will be speaking about this issue in south carolina. gr gracie is up first in virginia. hey, you got to turn your television down and listen th e through your phone. you still with us? >> caller: yes, yes. ever since he first stepped into office, he manipulated the system. now, before obama left, obama

had written that bill up, the first step act. and trump, he done went in there, changed a few words, and trying to act like he made the first step act, but he did not. i know it and half of the united states know it. >> governor, who should get credit? >> lots of people in both parties. but the bottom line, this president is a businessman. he's not a lawyer. he has no great history with criminal justice reform. in fact, educating nonlawyer executives to the merits and -- jared kushner.ssue is not sr he was probably the leading light, not just within the family but also generally. educated the president. some hollywood stars.

very well-publicized. they gave their opinions with regards to this. liberal, conservative, right, left, republican, democrat came together and achieved something in this town on an important issue that impacts real life. you can quantify whether this is working or not. important issue that impacts real life. and you can quantify whether this is working or not. and that's important. >> and we have thatial line spee set up for those who have experience in the criminal justice system. would love to hear from you in this segment as well. 202-748-8002. to paul in gainesville, good morning. >> caller: good morning. i was a chicago police officer in 1990 foromplete lity. a year. your guest is completely divorced from reality, okay?ng l truth of the matter is not enough criminals are being locked up and are not being held long enough. it was the law-abiding african-americans and latinos mt

that wantedy. crack dealers locd up for a long time because theye were doing o damagen th to the community. the truth of the matter is there's so much crimet even on y south side of chicago. chicago police officers don't hy even arrest people for dui. they don't even stop people ford theys i wodid,use if they'd be missing out on dozenst and dozens of calls they'd havee to make, and all the other police officers are going to have to pick up their load. ide- there's so much crime. you peoplest: that have no ideao >> that's paul. congressman, governor? >> well f you're going to impeach my credentials on crime and justice, i would ask the listener there to do some pital research first. nobody ever called me soft on crime. i support capital punishment. i certainly participated in many gun-related debates over the years, felony possession cases particularly, project exile in the '90s. i'm not going to apologize for y any part of my record, right or

left. i'm pretty educated on this issue. and by the neigway, the officer right in the sense that in minority neighborhoods, a lot of great folk aretween saying, heyp us, protect us. but the issue, the disparity between thehedeba powder and cr made no sense. i d >> take us back to those debate in congress.out >> i didn't even know the issue. members of the black caucus whit would go to thee floor and talk about the disparity. i see powder being more associate the as a white drug, crack being associateded as a black drug and the disparity until criminal sentencing. people talked about it, but i educated myself, quite frankly. it just made no sense to me. by the way, i talked to many misprofessionals, including police officers. i think a balanced approach is the right thing. again, many of us are driven, as i said, to the bottom lines as a

result as a function of justice. not race, not income, not anything. but with regard to those neighborhoods and the fact -- by the way, a totally separate issue what the listener brought up with regard to police now being scared to enforce the law, police not making arrests in some of our urban areas. it's an issue. i get that. but it's a separate issue. >> let's talk about that issue for a second, with the caller being a police officer. on this program just about a month or so ago, we were joined by former new york city police officer eugene o'donnell. he talked about policing in the united states, the front end of criminal justice. this is what he had to say. >> policing is in a terrible place. it's been irreparably damaged. no institution could sustain the onslaught of negative attention

it's received. so you have police departments in the big cities paralyzed. new york, philadelphia, baltimore, st. louis, minneapolis, los angeles. you could go on and on. the pacific northwest. police now are risk averse. you have a redefinition of policing. if police officers use force, that's brutality. the california legislature essentially saying to the police, the only time they can be in a shooting is if they're fired upon. if they fire in defense of their lives, if the person turns out to be unarmed, it's probably going to be criminal prosecuted. so it's time to talk about if it can't be repaired what we're going to do post policing in this country. >> that seems to be -- you're the first person i've heard talk about post-policing. do you see us change that much where you think that policing as it is today might not exist in the future? >> there's no appetite among young people to do this job. it was always a hard job to do. it has become increasingly

impossible to do. you had the police union in new york city this week saying the job is dead. that's what they said. a total lack of leadership. in fact, you have mayors grand standing and attacking their own police forces. you have police chiefs just political animals now. and legislators who should be responsibly selling legitimate policing, they instead are trying to win points by attacking the police. so these are major issues. you've got cities like chicago where i am today, where the police are basically in chapter 11. baltimore, they're not operating. they're under federal decree. the judge is anonymous, unaccountable. they're not responsible for safety at all. they spend all their time trying to keep the police under their thumb, and the result is you have young people being shot, you have gigantic violence problem. >> governor, your thoughts? >> post policing, i've never

heard that phrase. it's scary. i'm not sure how you would define it. hopefully we'll never get to that point because post policing means no policing, i suspect. the points raised by that officer are real, and they're serious and concerning. i'm a baltimore kid. i grew up right outside of west baltimore in baltimore county. i still count myself two minutes from the city line, i count myself as a city kid. i've seen baltimore degrade over the years. i've seen what's happened since freddie gray. i've seen the new spirit with regard to policing in baltimore city, which as the officer said, is less arrests. why get involved? we're not supported. we do not receive the political support we deserve. that is real. it's out there. it's not just in baltimore. it's not just urban but other police departments around the

country. it's something we all need to take seriously. because to the extent young people are not attracted to that profession, that's a societal issue and we're in trouble. >> criminal justice reform is our topic. our guest, former maryland governor bob erlich with us, taking your questions. this is steven in laurel. good morning. >> caller: hey, governor. >> how you doing? >> caller: i'm doing okay. post policing. the county police is constantly watching my block. they're here all the time. >> do you appreciate that? >> caller: i do, i do. at some point, but i'm also concerned because the police do have that authority and that reputation. i also want to say you did

something previously when you were governor. you were commuting sentences, and it was something that democrats would not do after the presidential election with george bush bringing up willy horton. >> yes, sir. >> caller: and democrats were shied away from giving come youatio youations and pardons. in maryland, you were the only governor that did that, and i appreciate that. the way baltimore is being maligned by conservative radio constantly all the time gives the impression that the police department did not deserve, you know, the reputation that they've gained as being under the task force and the entire brutality that's been portrayed upon the citizens. it's like they deserve that

reputation, and hopefully the police can start to build from that poor reputation into something that's better, but the way they've abdicated their policing -- in park heights, there's business owners going to police officers saying, i've been robbed, and the police are just looking. >> you bring up a lot of issues. >> we could spend an entire show on those issues. multilayered. very multilayered. there's an old adage, it only takes a few bad apples to wreck everyone. certainly you can wreck an image. whether it's baltimore police department or any other police department, a few rotten apples can certainly do that. we've certainly had that in baltimore. again, though, in my view -- and i'm a former -- i guess i'm a reformed politician. i'm not a reformed politician, i believe in strong leadership. i believe it can lead venues, whether it's a city, a county, a

state, a country. i think there's been a lack of political leadership in places like baltimore as well. there's a middle ground here. good people and most folks are good people, want strong policing. they want to be protected. drug dealer shows up in their neighborhood, they want the drug dealer taken care of. they want to go to the local mall and shop safely. they want their kid to come home from school. so that's not a function of race, class, or anything. that's just a function of being a human being. by the same token, when police officers lose that trust, when departments get those bad apples, we have a crisis of credibility. that's where political leadership needs to show itself in many of these larger cities, that leadership has not been present, in my view. >> talking with former maryland governor bob erlich in this segment. we had been expected to be joined by community activist ray mckesson.

got a text message he's stuck on a flight. but plenty of time for calls. talking about criminal justice reform in a weekend in which the presidential candidates on the democratic side and president trump headed to columbia, south carolina, to a forum to talk about that issue. perhaps one issue that will come up heading into that weekend is bernie sanders new plan that he just released, the proposal on thursday, looking to legalize marijuana across the country and expunge criminal convictions related to the drug. there's the headline there from "the washington post." your thoughts on the legalization of marijuana, both for medical and recreational purposes. >> well, i have been a long-time supporter of medical marijuana. i've been a long-time supporter of all of the above when it comes to terminal situations, end of life issues. and going back to my days in congress, in fact, i received plenty of grief from the bush administration during that time for my view. i took that view to the

governorship of maryland, and we got some stuff done in maryland, in fact, a bill. my wife is in the drug czar operation for the united states of america. ondcp is the office. we talk about this issue an awful lot. she's a former prosecutor and public defender. she has represented and prosecuted marijuana offenders over many, many years. the issue of marijuana legalization is very difficult, particularly given the marijuana we're dealing with today. and this is not my opinion. this is what the scientists tell us. this is not the marijuana of 10, 20, certainly 40 years ago. it's much stronger. addictions are much more frequent. what results come from those addictions is a legitimate public health issue. you're seeing some of this play out in colorado today. so i get the argument.

you're a maryland guy. when the mayor in the '80s talking about decriminalization, everyone went nuts. oh, my god, soft on crime. i think i was in state legislature at the time. i was one of the folks who said we need to talk about this. not necessarily that it's a good idea, but we need to talk about it. we understand the criminal repercussions, what occurs as a result of prohibition, similar to alcohol. we've seen that with illegal drugs, and it's grown over many, many decades. we know there's a lot of profit motive. we know there's a lot of violence. the argument being, hey, we can have a safer society and tax it in these states that legalize is, they're obviously making a lot of money. on the other hand, people tend to down play the mental health aspects of long-term addiction, which are very real. >> "washington post" story today also talking about the marijuana

plans put out by the other top contenders for the democratic presidential primary. just to run through those real quick, elizabeth warren supports sanders' plan. >> that's probably the majority position these days. by the way, when we talk about expunging records -- and we talked about my record in maryland, pardons and commutations. distribution, is that where the line is drawn? again, these are policy calls made by policymakers and legitimate points of view at work here. i think relatively fewer people would support drawing that line

for distribution as opposed to simple possession. >> just about five or ten minutes left with the former governor. gerald in pontiac, michigan. thanks for waiting. go ahead. >> caller: hey, what's going on? >> doing well, gerald. what's your question or comment? >> caller: well, my comment is that, you know, what i see is instead of just prison reform is the system in and of itself needs to be reformed. when you look at the history as far as african-americans in this country, you know, you look at how we were -- basically, we're in the ghetto, forced to be in the ghetto. the system gave us crack. this has been proven. we're being killed by cops, and the system doesn't hold these people accountable. so it's really, as far as i'm concerned, about the system that's continually perpetuating these negative stereotypes, these negative energies that are causing african-americans to even be a part of the system.

>> gerald, can i ask you, do you think the first step act has had an impact? have you seen anything over the past 11 months? do you think it's changed anything? >> i don't see much of a change at all, you know. i think nothing has really changed as far as people going to prison or anything like that. i don't see a change. like i said, it's the system in and of itself that needs to be changed. until that changes, nothing is going to change. >> governor? >> certainly changed for those folks we just talked about, the assistant attorney general. so you can't say that. that's incorrect. >> the clip from the deputy attorney general, an update on the numbers of the first step act. >> so that's real, that's tangible, measurable, and that's fact. i get sometimes frustrated with regard to how this issue becomes a race issue. there are more white people in prison. i understand what's happened in

poor neighborhoods pip understand the history of discrimination. but again, i think we lose some people when we look through a racial lens. i think it needs to be looked at through a justice lens. that's a much more balanced approach that gets everybody involved in the issue. this is an important issue. it's not just a purple issue. it's a relevant issue. it's a justice issue. it's a bottom line issue for those of us who care about government and fairness. >> by the way, viewers likely to hear more about the first step act over the course of the next couple days with that forum on criminal justice down in south carolina. but if you want to go back and take a look at that press conference from the justice department with the deputy attorney general -- >> one more thing. we talked earlier about -- the last caller talked about discrimination. one of the earlier callers talked about a lot of folks in these minority neighborhoods calling the police saying protect me, protect me.

we're paying you for a service, i want to be protected. i want the police in my neighborhood. i want the police making arrests. i don't want you scared of coming to my neighborhood and making those arrests. everybody takes your picture these days as you're making an arrest. again, social media has impacted this a great deal as well. >> certainly a topic we talked about on this program. time for maybe one more call. margaret waiting in somerville, massachusetts. thanks for waiting. go ahead. >> caller: hi there. i'd like to talk about the criminal justice system. my daughter went into a store a few years back and bought a little plant. the cashier went in back to get the right place. three ladies tired of waiting leaped on her and beat her to a pulp. the three ladies ran out and got the policemen. the policemen threw my daughter on the floor, handcuffed her,

and took her to the police station, took her shoes off. one of the gentlemen that was there who saw it all called me up and said, she didn't throw a punch. he said that three times to me. so i rushed over there, and the two policemen were still out there, and i says, where's my daughter? they said, she's down at the police station. i went down there, and there she was. she was a mess. she was a wreck. they had beat her to a pulp. they found her guilty. howing s how could she beat up three women to begin with? she had no chance at all. >> we're running out of time, but thanks for sharing your story. governor, what do you take of larger issues that could come from that story? >> i suspect that's a police training issue. again, this is a very difficult profession. part of your job description within this profession is physical altercations with the public. whenever that's part of your job

description, you're going to have potential negative repercussions. you're going to have potential reputational problems. and so again, i'm the last person -- i want to be the first person, in fact, to applaud the police. there are bad apples that need to be taken care of. sometimes they need to be prosecuted. but we need good people to answer the profession of law enforcement. there's no such thing as post policing. we need a central authority to protect us in a flee country. >> governor bob ehrlich. the group is right on crime. rightoncrime.com if you wanted to read more about that group that you work with. thanks so much for your time. do appreciate it. and live on capitol hill, a house panel will be looking at the impact of immigration policy on military service members and veterans. the subcommittee will hear from a mexican-born u.s. army

veteran. they're waiting a bit here. it's been several votes on the house floor. the hearing should get under way shortly, live here on c-span3.

it looks like a few minutes

before this hearing gets under way. while we have a moment, we'll take you live to comments from senator chuck schumer and democratic leadership outside the senate chamber. >> al-baghdadi from the face of the earth. he's met his maker and the world is better off for it. his reign of terror, those who he led in isis, beheadings, rapes of women, terrorizing the region is well documented, and the world is better off because he is no longer with us. by the same token, i hope the president can understand that it's not time to put a mission accomplished banner over the white house. the end of bin laden was not the end of al qaeda. and the end of baghdadi is not the end of isis. isis is still a challenge to the national interests and security of the united states. as a department of defense and

inspector general has testified before congress, there are at least 18,000 fighters in the syria region alone, not to mention other nearby countries, which have isis fighters. if you consider the 10,000 that have been detained by the kurds, if the kurds have to defend themselves at the end of the day versus worry about detaining isis prisoners, you have a reconstituted force of nearly 30,000 isis fighters. that's a clear and present danger to the national interests of the united states. we have been asking for and cannot get what is the definitive strategy to defeat isis by this administration. we cannot get a secretary of state to come before the senate foreign relations committee or even to come into classified opportunities to understand what is the coalition that is being put together to continue to defeat isis. and it is incredible for me to hear the president's first words is that of recognizing vladimir putin and russia.

outsourcing the national security of the united states to vladimir putin is not an option, not an option. and failing to tell the leaders on both sides of the aisle about such an operation is while you're complimenting russia, it speaks volumes about what the administration's thinking is. and lastly on a related note, i think it's despicable, despicable to question the loyalty and the patriotism of lieutenant colonel, an iraq war veteran, a purple heart recipient, simply because of his heritage. simply because of his heritage. when i think of the national security of the united states, i think of people like the