what mrs. kennedy and her family bear. , that is all ist can do. i ask for your help and guards. >> the nation, the world mourned john fitzgerald kennedy. they move from the white house to the capital to take the seat of the united states. >> you can watch archival films on public affairs in their entirety on our weekly series " reel america." that's on american history tv.

pulitzer sheiks planes the differences between the event and the author's life. the jefferson county missouri library hosted this event. thrilled to see you here tonight. this is the third and final program in this series. we have had wonderful crowds turn out each time. it's been really satisfying. thisve c-span here taping to show on television is the icing on the cake.

introduceight is to two people on the podium who will be conducting this conversation. the editor at is the dispatch. with degrees in journalism and english literature. she worked as a copy editor for the st. louis globe -- louis anded to st. has been an editor and writer of the features department for 30 years. she assigns and edits reviews from 300 seat week. she has written stories about trends and interviewed many authors.

that and shedds to will be having a conversation with caroline frazier. editore frazier is the of -- and the author of three works of non-action. her latest book is prairie fires, the american dreams of lauren wilder. hewlett surprise for biography. the national book critics circle award for biography and the 2018 award. list given by the columbia journalism school. has traveledier the country for two years, wilder, her on

daughter, and to groups large and small. frazier appeared in the new york review of books. review amongn other publications. she is also the author of god's plan child, living and dying in the christian science church and from the conservation revolution. she graduated from mercer island high school and she received her phd in english and american literature. she lives with her husband in santa fe new mexico. we would like to give them all a warm welcome tonight.

>> i guess we are on. >> thank you for having me talk to carol and frazier. and may be many others and watched it on tv. it sometimes was a little skeptical. how long have you researched and studied? and why did you study her?

. i read the books as a kid wasink part of the reason most of my grandparents had been farmers in the midwest. they were immigrants from scandinavian places and came to minnesota from wisconsin and 18e forming in the late 90's. same areas. it was fascinating to tell stories that cast some light on what they have gone through. i had an opportunity to review book of lauren ingalls

wilder's daughter. was quite a scandal. he was really the author. he taught at the university of missouri. it created quite a sensation, like little fraud on the prairie. that's when i start looking at wilder's main script. whatind of thinking about an interesting story it was. >> i think you mentioned in your book that a lot of his were actually in the

appendix. that he set out to do on get -- to debunk it? >> he seemed to have real toward laura. up this central thing of the book, it was called the ghost in the little house, until the appendix. contentious argument to make. i ultimately came away from the feeling feeling like there was a lot more to the story and it was more complicated. not sure how many people

at harvard were studying laura ingalls wilder, were they? >> there were zero. i didn't even think of it at that time. i never would have proposed it. >> it wasn't considered academic. you kind of made it academic with your book, because you do incorporate so much history into the story. >> later i have the opportunity to edit a new version -- a new addition for the library of and that entailed writing some notes on the text explaining what certain historical events were for the reader. realize this stuff is

really interesting. i began to hope it would be potentially is string -- potentially interesting to readers as well. where did you find new information that had been written about much before. doscholars were starting to related work. there is an example of the ingalls family in kansas. there was another paper in a folklore journal about the discussion of the origins of this phrase that occurs repeatedly in little house on scurrilous, this phrase, "the only good indian is

a dead indian." because of ane event that is mentioned in the book called the minnesota massacre. there is a whole history about that just one phrase that was so terms of how that was used politically to justify the treatment of indians. it seemed like a rich history that paid attention -- >> and some of the papers are in the herbert hoover library. lauren -- laura ingalls wilder's paper is there. >> it is unusual, but the reason it came about was because when ,ose began her writing career

she began as a yellow journalist. she was writing a questionable .iography of people she wrote one of herbert hoover. she was the first person to write a i r griffey of hoover before she be asked before he became president. anyway after her death her papers ended up at the presidential library. >> what were some of the revelations you found. people are somewhat

groundbreaking, the way you put six -- this information together. >> i think it was a combination of establishing the importance of wilder and her work. but her literary history also herself image -- also our self image. the way we see ourselves as distant -- as defendants -- descendents of people who crossed across great plains. i think people are interested in the kinds of fantasies we created. how true are those stories we tell ourselves?

other people were telling that story before wilder, weren't they? think her story had become one of the central ways that , especiallyorb idea aboutren, the manifest destiny, which is a concept that has been interrogated quite a bit. even today you hear politicians and other people endorse this plan.here was some grand ourt has been known some of

presidential candidates are fans of little house on the prairie. >> i'm talking about ronald reagan, how he used to watch little house in the. in the white house. landon was the star and producer and director of the tv show, they were friends. lyndon was a big reagan supporter. -- doubtful whether or not reagan has read the books. there may be is a little bit of a message in that. -- it was considered to be

wholesome. >> wholesome and hard-working. pulling yourself up by the bootstraps. that whole notion that regan famously said he didn't support government. -- government money. if somebody comes to you and says i'm here from the government and i'm here to help -- >> you are supposed to be suspicious. >> that is the worst thing you can hear. there is a kernel of a sand -- a slightly antigovernment -- >> since we are talking about a fewremember reading years ago about judith.

the vice presidential candidate was sarah palin. seemed want to this idea that people are doing this all themselves and that laura ingalls wilder did it all herself. government had loaned the money to buy land. how did you react to that and what is your interpretation of how much help or not from the government did the ingalls get? >> it's quite clear that laura herself had a contradictory

reaction to the federal government. for a time in the 1920's she worked for the government. secretary-treasurer for the mansfield federal farm program. she helped farmers fill out to get these loans. she was very supportive of that program. when the new deal along she was opposed to that. she was opposed to people taking assistance or aid from the government.

>> it was an unusual attitude to have. when i was growing up i said to her, why didn't you like fdr? during the depression you were pretty poor. apparently a lot of people and't like to feel that feel like they were being told that. >> i think laura rose loved this idea -- floor and rose love this autonomy.

people should never take things from the government, that was shameful to them. history ofok at the the family they do accept help. help for mary, laura's older sister who became blind as a teenager. mary was sent to college in iowa , which was a state program, they were willing to accept aid. there was clearly flexibility and for some reason that laura was asibly because she

little ashamed of her own reliance on her daughter a somewhat developed more rigid reaction. >> was at war in the 20's and 30's? >> it was the advent of fdr. >> tell us about charles ingle, -- charles ingalls. how did that affect the family? course the homestead act was one of the biggest government giveaways. he began, the homestead act is 1862 bynto law around

lincoln. he takes advantage of it first and minnesota. it's a factor in their lives when they move on. i think it was a real struggle for them. it involved breaking land, which is initially difficult. roots andough all the tear off the prairie. by this time he is older.

>> by that time he was in his late 30's. >> he had been working like a dog. it really took it out of him. they were able to have a few good crops. they were in supporting the family with the hosted. he actually worked mainly as a carpenter in his later years. it was easier for big families who had a lot of sons. >> they had a boy, did he die?

, wasura's little brother worn right after the locusts wiped them out. died less than a year old. mary had her disability. it was a pretty tough life. >> were they able to pay back the government or prove the land, make sure it was something that they could really keep? >> the process was proving up on the land, it took about five years. you filled out some paperwork and paid a small fee. up and you didnt

have to clear a certain number of acres and had to build something. build some kind of had tor something, you prove that was on the land. at the end of five years you had friends or neighbors testified. you had to prove you had done this. and that had to be published in the local newspaper. newspaper a local that a lot of local newspapers were founded, to publish that. >> to play devils advocate, they are not getting anything from

free from the government because there also doing the government a favor, aren't they? by moving west and clear out the farm.s and create a the utility of some of those farms is and was questionable. the great plains thate dakotas, a lot of land was not ideal for farming, especially dryland farming, which was just going alone without irrigation, relying on whatever mother nature provided. that land was marginal for farming. government participated in sending people out there or

allowing railroads. the government scientists had basically told him this is raising than it is for farming. and you need a lot more to be successful. you need a lot more than the traditional 100 acres the homes had provided to make a go of it. they did not pay any heed to that. >> what was the motive? >> i believe the motive was help the railroad companies pursue their profits. >> he loves laura, laura loves , he sounds like a very good

provider. she admitted as much in a letter she wrote. he was a poet and a musician. i think she loved him for those qualities that were not that practical. he was a very affectionate and loving father. he was a very talented musician. his fiddle playing with something that made their lives worth living. hours.ring the darkest

she came away from her relationship with him valuing he had a veryr, short attention span. -- as a father. >> did he have a very short attention span? >> it was restlessness in one way. he clearly disliked it when an area became too settled and overpopulated. next placeon to the that was wilder. himself.to wander by

i think it was that he was not supremely dedicated to the domestic farming seen. wife?t about his poor was she doing the lion's share or was she resigned? >> in some ways she was. that was a lot of many women at the time to hold down before it. i think she was a very patient, very accepting person in a lot of ways. hereems she finally put down when she got mad and basically said this far and no farther.

i think she did in part for the children that she wanted to receive. click so much education did lauren get? >> for the time she got it pretty good, she never graduated from high school. i think she felt a little badly about that. read for ate well person of her age. they never had a library when she was there. and talk about how wonderful had it was now that kids access to libraries. books, theyew really valued literature.

the son of als was very literate man. i think reading at home with something they did all the time allowed. >> he was a bit of a storyteller. >> he would hear stories down at the hardware store, get the news, and love to read newspapers. and was a great storyteller. a tune, he heard would always remember it and reproduce it. >> how long would her parents live? >> laura and her husband and daughter ended up leaving in

1894 after a number of misfortunes they suffered. that was the last time lauren -- laura would see her father. >> about eight years? >> he died in 63 or something like that. -- ingalls lived on for some time. caroline angles -- ingalls died and was buried in 28.

>> laura doesn't start writing the 30's.ntil she first writes an autobiography that was not 1930.hed around publishedently been by the south dakota historical. put a lot of historical information in that. sisters carry and grace, they don't end up as well as the wilder family. >> were quite poor, carrie was an enterprising young journalist for a while. minor -- up marrying a

a miner in the keystone area. they were very poor. problems alllth her life. , did lauren -- laura ever give them money? i don't think she ever really helped support them, i think in have given, she may clothes. i don't think she financially wanted to support them. >> where they happy most of their life? >> they had a terrible time when

just after they got married they were heavily in debt. they felt ill -- fell ill with diphtheria. . whilefered a stroke recovering from the diphtheria. man.s a young vital he had difficulty walking for the rest of his life. hard it was a real struggle as a clay for him. he couldn't do the hard labor he had done. >> the land of the big red

apples. and especially the area where the wilder's ended up moving. a bit of a fantasy. there were a lot of orchards being established. they were pretty successful for a while. was wipedlot of that out. >> we don't think of the ozarks is great farmland either. >> people talk to their now and they have stories.

but he would pay them $.50 to pick up rocks in the field. rocky ridge was the name of the farm. >> she was really proud of her chicken. >> she was very skilled with poultry and developed all these ways to keep chickens productive and healthy. the things she began writing about for newspapers was poultry. thought the mailman was very dismissive about the money she

made. and prove to him that it was worthwhile. >> what paid the bills before the book? >> they had all kinds of jobs. books for the company. -- a littlee a busy business doing that for a while. work.d the farm loan she was also starting to write for newspapers. a well-respected farm newspaper.

that's where she served her apprenticeship. writing about her family, her father, her sister. >> people always like family stories. do we know how she started? they had this famous trip in 1915 to visit her daughter, rose , who was living in san francisco. she married this never do well guy. it was kind of a hotbed of yellow journalism at the time. they were publishing a lot. thestart working on one of women's pages.

then actuallyn was fiction. time, we can make so with a newspaper than you can with chickens. >> that was how he got into it. and then she was on her way. the world list gig was quite a lucky break because they really valued her. >> we know how much she was paid for those?

>> do you want to talk more .bout rose she contributes quite a bit. a little moody at the very least. >> she had a lot of trauma in her life because of all the things that happened because of her father's disability, they and the househild burned down. for his wife. i think a lot of that luster with confused feelings of adultsibility, so as an

you can feel the trauma playing getand she certainly did and suicidalessed at times. lot andseem to suffer a her relationship with her mother was pretty rocky. >> they must have supported each other. didn't she help send her mother's first manuscript to a publisher and culture through? think we would have the little house books because experiences asof a writer.

she knew publishing people, she knew a lot of editors. she knew editors magazines. she was the driving force pushing her mother to take advantage of these memories. she had been hearing about the stories about the pioneering days all her life. she said there was some money to be made off of that, there was a real market for that. >> the country was becoming more people nostalgic and more interested in those older stories, i assume. >> you really see that kicking , theuring the depression were obviously really to a public that

doesn't know where their next meal is coming from. aboutese stories wonderful farms and these and accounts of eating pie for breakfast. >> obviously these books took a little liberty with history. probably even more, and not that a tv seriesok for for our history lessons. they probably got an idea that this is how it was. what are some of the things it

got wrong? >> the tv show? more or less everything. i think the tv show is so made up out of four cloth. if you look at it now it is about the 1970's that was the 1870's. this was true of almost everything coming out of hollywood. fantasies of what life was supposed to be like. charles ingalls was betrayed by michael landon. i have a picture of michael thatn with his shirt off

was probably not half -- that was probably not happening a lot. they also give you a million examples. >> they didn't wear shoes to walk around or go to town. michael landon didn't want -- >> they had toys the real ingalls girls would have covered it -- coveted. >> how did it show the indians and how did that compared to when the indian -- to how the indians were portrayed in the book?

a handfulre of just of instances, especially one episode of the tv show, what was meant to be an indian boy and interaction with him. these were ideas of michael landon. i don't think it had anything to do with historical reality. even with -- which does portray a number of encounters that she and her

, which are, when we read them today, problematic. ofre is a certain amount racist language and attitude on display. >> it's not laura who necessarily shows those. >> a number of times when she uses this inflammatory language, it's given to another character, it is not something laura is saying or her father is saying. in fact her father disagrees with this, hopefully. not -- think nonetheless in howre attitudes people see and interpret indian

behavior that would never be published today. it's interesting to look at that that as an expression of time. remains one of the most important novels. i think you have to understand it. >> it is really a page turner. there is always stuff happening. the american library association renamed the laura ingalls -- laura ingalls wilder reward. think it was necessary for

them because that's what they decided to do. i understand why they did it. the institution that developed the award, they had the right to change the name of it. , who was't withdraw it the first recipient of it, and they made a public statement saying children and adults would continue to read the books. it wasn't intended as an act of censorship, though i think the general public interpreted it in some quarters as that. that wasn't the intent. theodore kiesel geisel award.uy

theater was more anti-semitic then laura was in her novels. >> he published during the period of the second world war. images. of racist it is complicated. they had a different set of problems based on how it was set up. i think there is some complications involved with that. it had been something they had been discussing for years because there had been children in communities and south dakota and other states in the plains

and the west who would actually come out from school in years because they had been reading little house on the prairie and read these inflammatory things. it was a recognition that some of the books had .ecome that has to be context provided if they are going to continue to be taught.

there have been many instances of this. my mother was a kindergarten teacher and taught first grade. distress when she had to stop reading the black sambo to kids. this is something that has been happening and people reevaluate classics all the time. begin withdrawing them. children,e issue is particularly notable and when they are the audience. for adults the it is a totally different situation. people are still reading and discussing huckleberry finn.

adults.e it is a different set of standards. >> hopefully they have more knowledge to put things in context. edit oru have them change anything now to make that go away? fan.am never a i think you need to either reconsider who is reading the books. i'm not an educator.

it is an issue for all of literature from previous period -- previous periods. >> there was a new picture book that came out that was like a little black sambo. it had different illustrations that were more respectful. it was a darling little book. i can't remember what the name of it is now. i think it was based on that. it was probably time for other people to think of questions.

would anyone else like to ask caroline frazier a question? >> do you have a favorite novel? >> the long winter, which was her novel about the family's survival of this hellacious winter of 1880-1881. they were basically trapped. the food when dulled and dwindled.

while this young man with another fellow in town made a get thee journey to wheat from a farmer outside of town. this all happened. is an extraordinary survival tale. it is very evocative of the kind of terror and numbness that overtakes you.

they had sometimes a real power struggle. hot temper. i think she was quite quick to anger. he was very patient with her. he knew that about her when he married her. i think he admired her personality. i do think they loved each other deeply.

i don't think it was all easy. you have a favorite little house side? people go on pilgrimages to different locations. >> one of my favorites is the creek side. the town of walnut grove is quite interesting in itself. there is this area where the family dugout was. it is such a lovely place. it really preserved the character of it.

>> what do you >> would you talk a little bit about laura's situation with her sister mary? that was a critical part of her life, i think. sisters, marytwo and laura, had a kind of competition. they were very competitive with each other. when they were younger they were much more pious and proper and a little bit prim, which was something that laura always resented. and i think that is true. i think this was the difference between them. and then when mary fell ill and nearly died and then became was then really

kind of forced into this role that she had never contemplated for herself, which was to become a teacher. that is what mary had been intending to do. and her parents had always hoped that mary would teach and be able to make a little money that way. was this huge, i think, shock for laura that then she had to step into those shoes. said, showed her, she that she really could do something that she did not want to do. she was never comfortable doing that so young. and yet she did do it. she forced herself to do it. and it was really hard for her to step up in front of kids who were bigger than she was. ms. henderson: she was a small person. wasn't she just under 5 feet or

something? ms. fraser: she was just 5 feet. relationshipat stayed with her really for the rest of her life, even though she and mary were separated for most of their adult lives. think that even some of those little childhood resentments stayed with her, too. she would describe such feeling later in life that it was clear -- i think it created her love of fairness and her intolerance of injustice. she was very quick to be angry about things that she felt to be an injustice. i think it came from her competition with mary. >> hi. i have really enjoyed your talk so far.

i had a couple questions but i will do the one. researchingget into like you did? because most people you read books, you love the books, and you don't go as far as you have where you have researched these people for years. so let -- so what led you to do what you have done? me, theser: to historical background of the in lives were really fascinating. the more i got into that the more i wanted to find out. it was more like putting together a puzzle or something. there were all these missing pieces that i wanted to find the answers to. so, i think that was a big part of it. earlierhad mentioned that nobody at harvard would have studied something like this. there was importance to these books, that they really

deserved attention and explication and analysis in a way that they had not. not that there are not lots of fans, there are lots of really dedicated fans and amateur historians and people who have studied the books. and they have contributed an enormous amount as well. so, i want to give them credit as well. but i really felt like it was a subject that the general public would respond to. know, theyou attention would be repaid with new fans, hopefully. new interest. because i think it is fine to not be a fan of the little house books as well.

there are a lot of people who do not like them, which i completely understand. and i think that is totally legitimate. but i do think they are important. i think they help shape our aboutabout some settings, our history with farming and settlements, that we need to know more about those things. did you have another question? >> i know someone else's coming feel about did it how bulger big is? how does it make an author feel knowing it is huge? i am just curious what authors think of that. ms. fraser: it is enormously gratifying to get a response to your work, because of course most writes, and certain -- w

riters, and most certainly i have spent years by myself in a room not talking to anyone. so it is wonderful to have readers and to meet readers and to hear their responses and the ir enthusiasm for the topic. >> were you surprised when you won the pulitzer? ms. fraser: i was shocked. deeply, deeply shocked, yes. very surprised. that charles ingalls lineage stopped with rose when she passed away. did rose not have any children, or grace, or the other sister? ms. fraser: no. man that she married had a couple of children before they married. but she had no children of her own, mary had no children, grace had no children.

rose, likewise, did not have any surviving children. habitid have a kind of later in her life of sort of adopted adopting, she several young people in a kind of temporary way. and one of those people eventually became the inheritor of the estate, a fellow named roger mcbride who she met when ofwas the 14-year-old son her editor at reader's digest. and he became her adopted grandson and inherited the estate when she died. >> thank you. i have a comment and a question. my favorite was always a long winter, and my view is certainly

colored now having read about that lazy couple lived with them during the long winter. the other thing, whenever i read those books -- well, i still do. i always wondered, i knew that laura was born right after the civil war, and it was never charles wasike, never fond of war. it seems to me from the book that when the draft came he just sort of disappeared for a year. is that kind of -- ms. fraser: yeah, that is a very interesting period, and it remains, i think, an unanswered question why he did not serve. history there. the ingalls, charles and caroline, married in 1860. she had a brother who died.

war.e i am just speculating here, but she might have discouraged his participation. but yes, they do kind of drop off the map, briefly, around up inime, and then turn wisconsin. area where a lot of men in wisconsin were kind of drifting off into the lumber camps and so forth in the northern part of the state to potentially avoid the draft, which was quite a contentious subject in wisconsin, although i think the state of wisconsin, they sent more men to fight in the war than almost any other

state. so, it is tantalizing and interesting to think about what that might have been like, and why none of the ingalls's boys, except the two youngest who ended up volunteering very late in the war, why none of them served. that is very: interesting. mcbride, he, roger kind of took over the loyalties of some of the -- the royalties of the little house books. wasn't the main field public library supposed to get them later, but they never did? they got a lump settlement. ms. fraser: right. did leave the proceeds, the the

royalties. she left them all to rose for rose's lifetime, but when rose died it was supposed to go to the library. and he engaged in legal machinations to prevent that from happening. then theree died, was a bit of a reckoning and a lawsuit was filed by the library, and they did get a settlement for a fairly substantial sum. a little shady. ms. henderson: a question? american, but "little house on the prairie," that little -- that series was a benchmark in my family. can i request something? because i believe that the

majority of the people in here are a big fan of you. mean, can we take a photograph at the end? [laughter] well, she was going to sign, but there are no books to sign. ms. fraser: no, i would be happy to. >> thank you. ms. henderson: that is really cute. do we have any other questions? because i could keep asking questions all night long. but i don't know. pam? you kind of mentioned this at , and one author brought up that rose really was the author of the books. and i read the annotated bibliography. it took me forever, but i read it. and when you read that, you can

see where she sent things to rose and rose kept saying them -- sending them back saying no, do this, do this. it was more like rose was her editor than the author, so for me it will always be laura ingalls wilder's books. ms. fraser: yeah, they definitely had a collaboration, is what people often call it. i think it was kind of mother, daughter, writer, editor collaboration. androse contributed a lot, clearly edited more heavily than a standard editor in new york might have done at that time. worth studying and talking about. and i do not think we are done with that, even today. and there are certain stages of the manuscript that appear to be

missing. you a really does show lot about their process when you look at what remains. cleark though that it is that laura did produce the raw material that became the books, and rose brought a lot to it in the editing. her writingompare in her columns to the writing in is theres, and tell, any substantial difference in the tone or in the language see uses -- she uses or her style of writing? ms. fraser: yeah, there are some really interesting moments in the farm columns, and also in the speech that she delivered about her work, which was entirely hers. rose did not contribute to it at all. she gave a famous speech at the detroit book fair about why she had written the books.

she was only halfway through at that point. but i think that you can tell that she had her own voice, she had her own style, which was very different than rose's. she had a very plainspoken, not --odramatic, very sensual satual and kind of affecting tone, whereas rose's contributions are much more hypo dramatic -- hyper-dramatic and more polished sometimes. so it is possible to discern the different voices. and i think a lot of what makes the little house books unique is laura's voice and her perceptions, her memories of what she saw and experienced. >> i have two completely unrelated questions.

the first is, the books are somewhat fictionalized. say ish would you history and how much is fiction? ms. fraser: i think what is in factuals is often very and factually accurate. laura really cared about getting things right. and described things quite accurately. for example, the famous locust plague on the banks of plum creek. very accurate description. what she left out was what happened to the family after that event. of financial kind collapse and homelessness and drifting around. so, a lot of how she's changing her stories, leaving things out

that she did not want to write about that she thought were not appropriate for children. question, second regarding her estate. is any part of her estate used to maintain the various sites, like mansfield and lum creek? -- plum creek. ms. fraser: not directly, to my knowledge. didow that roger mcbride give generously to some of the sites, including mansfield. i think he was instrumental in helping them set up a museum. i think he also contributed -- from rose's possessions to dismat. i know they have some of her

furniture and other materials, things that he had. don't know whether he set up bequest,of permanent but i know that he did give them. i think many of them, though, struggle for funding. and it is too bad that there is not a kind of national support for those sites. like a lot of literary sites, they really do need help. ms. henderson: didn't mansfield have plans to build another building or something? ms. fraser: they did. it opened a couple years ago. they have a new museum now. ms. henderson: any other questions?

we will just wrap it up then. thank you all so much for coming. let's give a round of applause. [applause] announcer: here the rerouting clinton during the impeachment inquiry of president richard nixon in 1973 and 74. feature history tv will their interviews about their experience next sunday, december 1 at 6:00 p.m. eastern. conducted by former nixon presidential library director timothy, they are from the library's oral history collection. a behind the scenes collective -- perspective on the work during the nixon impeachment inquiry. that is next sunday at 6:00 p.m. eastern here on american history tv, only on c-span 3. baton was the 6888

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