has hardly progressed on some of the problems. some of the problems have become much worse. freedom of speech in the schools, among the students who have a future in front of them is absolutely essential in my opinion. >> john tinker joining us from des moines. thank you for being with us. ' >> thank you for having me, >> having toure.

having to lie, i feel is one of the and ugliest part about being a homosexual, when you have your first bad luck experience, for instance you can't go up to your brother or sister and say i am hurting. >> at first i was very guilty. and then i realized, all the things that were taught by society and psychiatrists, just to fit you in a mold. i just rejected the mold, and when i rejected the mold i was happier. >> their organizations all across the country, where 60 or 75 independent groups across the united states, even more. they are growing overnight. this is a unified effort, on the part of somewhere between 20 to 30 organizations. the difference is primarily, our of

tactics. some groups tenth emphasize, very relative confrontation tactics. other ones are more educational approach. going out into areas, of what you might call middle america people, who don't know very much about homosexuality. some groups, most groups in fact, go for services for people in need. the major effort today, is to change the social institutions,. >> >> a portion film documentary,

this is what the stone in looks like today, inside the sunday new york times. it's a look at the demonstrations that took place in july 1969. and joining us from granted phil new york, is mark stein. he is the editor of the stonewall riots, the documented through history. thank you for being with us on c-span and c-span 3 american tv. we appreciate it. >> thank you so much for having me. >> take us back 50 years ago this week. what happened? >> well the police in that period, routinely rated gay bars that was certainly the case in new york city. there was a raid on the stone wall in a few nights earlier. on june seven the police began a raid. some of the patrons were

allowed to exit the bar and some were detained. it was very common for police to detain bar owners, bar managers, bartenders, bar managers, bartenders, people of color, people who fought back or talked back. some people were detained inside the bar. by this time, it was the early morning hours of june 28. patrons began gathering on the streets outside. as the police tried to bring those they detained into police wagons, the crowd began to erupt. over the next three nights there were demonstrations. at one point police were trapped inside the bar until reinforcements arrived, the

riot control police were called. the rioting proceeded over several days. >> why this location? why this set of circumstances? >> it is a complicated question. the stonewall inn was mafia owned and managed. there was a system of payoffs whereby the bar managers paid off the police to limit although never completely restrict police raids on the bars. the police would raid the bars even if there were these payoff systems in place. the payoffs system might have broken down. there was a mayoral election that was going on. that was often a time when police would raid bars as part of a crackdown on vice. the

city administration would appear to be promoting law and order. there were allegations of violations of the great liquor licensing laws, disorderly conduct, black mailing, other allegations about the stonewall in. that is stonewall inn was targeted. why june 1969? in global terms, 1968 was a major year that witnessed rebellions and revolutions around the world as well as police reaction, state reaction, and violent state repression. in some way we can see the stonewall riots of 1969 as an outgrowth of worldwide developments happening. there were local issues as well. the mayoral election. weeks before

the riots, mayor john lindsay had lost the republican primary. lindsay was known to be a friend to the gay community. he ended up winning the election in 1969, but he did so on a third-party ticket. in late june, nobody knew he would end up winning. in 1969, there were a number of police killings of lgbt people around the country. that contributed to the rage and anger that lgbt people felt that night and the days and weeks surrounding the stonewall riots. >> our guest is mark stien. he is a professor and the author of the stonewall riots, a documentary history. we have aligned set aside for the lgbtq community.

that line is (202) 748-8002. for just a moment, describe physically where you are situated. >> directly behind me is the new stonewall national monument, which was created during the obama administration. it is a small part, triangular park. behind the park is the stonewall inn. it is a two-story building. this is greenwich village in new york city. >> what do the monuments represent? >> when obama mentioned stonewall alongside seneca in his

inaugural address, it signifies that lgbt activism is part of the broader aspirational struggles for social justice in the u.s. that was a symbolic statement on the part of obama as president of the u.s. as the first african-american president. establishing this monument here is another way of signaling the road that has been traveled over not just the last 50 years but even longer to achieve lgbt quality, a still unfinished quality for that matter this is an action

on part of the federal government, which for many decades was quite regressive to lgbt people. there is kind of a paradox that the federal government is recognizing this space and yet continues to adopt policies currently. the best example might be the ban on transgender military members. there are ongoing struggles and problems. >> you mentioned the speech by president obama, his second in 2013 speech inaugural speech. here is what he said. >> we the people declared today that the most evident of truths that all of us are graded equal is the star that guides us still, just as it guided our forebears through seneca falls, selma, and stonewall. to hear a preacher say that we cannot walk alone. to hear a king

proclaim that their individual freedom is inextricably bound to the freedom of every soul on earth. >> that was former president barack obama in 2014. the stonewall in itsleelf is a rather cozy bar. it's not very big is it? >> it is not very big. it was known in 1969 as one of the larger gay bars in new york city. it featured dancing. it featured go-go boys. compared to some real holes in the wall, it was known to be relatively spacious. >> >> why were these locations so important at that time to the gay and lesbian community?

>> >> in 1969, same-sex sex was basically a legal in 49 out of 50 american states. there were federal, state, and local laws that regulated lgbt speech, that regulated lgbt participation in many aspects of public life. it was difficult to get government jobs in 1969. bars were a congregation place where lgbt people could come together, socialize together, enjoy time together, and in that sense some people argue that the bar was for the lgbt community what the church was for the african-american community or what the factory was for the labor movement, the central space for gathering, becoming active, developing ideas about social justice. >> >> in order to get a sense of how the media covered the

gay and lesbian community in the 1960's, i want to share with you a portion of a now controversial cbs news documentery, one which dan rather has apologized for. the title was the homosexuals. >> >> most americans are repelled by the mere idea of homosexuality. two out of three americans look it up on essentials with disgust, discomfort, or fear. one out of 10 says hatred. the vast majority says homosexuality is an illness. only 10% say it is a crime. here is the paradox. the majority of americans favor legal punishment even for acts performed in private between consenting adults. the homosexual responds by going

underground. they frequent their own clubs and bars and coffee houses where they can act out in the fashion they want to, where they can participate. >> >> i know you are familiar with this program. your reaction? >> >> the media was changing in the second half of the 1960's, as was the lgbt movement. i think that program was quite soundly criticized by the pre-stonewall lgbt movement. there were other media organizations that were more accepting. the new york times magazine published a major story called civil rights and the homosexual in 1967. the wall street journal published a major feature story on the gay-rights movement. the lgbt movement had success in the second half of the 1960's. that was certainly true in new york city. under the lindsay

administration, there was a decline of sexual entrapment practices by police. there was some success in court decisions that allowed gay bars more freedom to exist and thrive. things were changing in the second half of the 1960's. when we turn to the stonewall rights themselves, the media reports were interesting, conflicting, and ever-changing. in that first week, the new york times, new york post, new york daily news all covered the stonewall riots. it was buried news. the village voice did major coverage. they had reporters on the scene and even trapped inside the bar during the riots. it was really the alternative press and lgbt press that covered the riots

more sympathetically, more comprehensively. those are the stories that historians rely on along with oral histories, police reports, and photographs for rounding out the picture of what happened that week. >> >> one of those is the documentary of the leave and cents. our guest is mark stein. he is the author of rethinking the gay and lesbian movement. as we talk about stonewall, the riots, 50 years ago, a turning point for the lgbtq community. tom is on the phone. >> >> good morning to both of you gentlemen and to all of the viewers. this will be pretty brief. just a little context. i am a navy veteran, gay navy veteran. grew up in a very much catholic household. this issue is portrayed many different

ways by many different folks and corners of society. what it really is, it is about love. it is not about sex so much. it is about love. good luck to anybody who is determined to fight love because you are really fighting quite a force right there. coming from a religious background, the last thing i will mention is lgbtq issues are often by the religious right mentioned in the same breath as abortion and the culture of death. things of this nature. there is so much in the bible that is taken way

out of context. adhered to selectively. it is about love. >> >> have you personally felt discrimination as an openly gay american? >> >> i am glad you asked that. because i value other viewer's time as well as you two gentlemen, i served 20 years in the navy, retired. i guess about 50% of it, sorry, my voice is kind of croaky this morning. about 50% of it was under so-called don't ask don't tell. the other 50%, my first 10 years in the military was under the republican preferred do ask. we'll ask, and do tell. that was particularly

repressive and draconian. that could land you out on the street extremely easily. i think bill clinton takes a lot of grief for don't ask don't tell. in fact it was a huge step forward from what was in place before that. steve, the last half of my sentence here will be repression growing up in a particularly religious household, you better believe it. thank you for asking. >> >> thank you. what are you hearing his story? >> >> i think it is interesting to see the movement as focused on issues of love. the pre-stonewall movement is

typically called the homophile movement. and philo was chosen as the key term because it referenced love rather than sex. the gay liberation movement that developed after stonewall, into some extent began in the months before the riots, please people emphasis placed equal emphasis on love and sex. they wanted their sexual identities to be affirmed and validated. for a few years, sexual issues were quite central to the movement. >> >> here is a look at some of the highlights for the gay, lesbian, and transgender communities in 1973. the american psychiatric association declaring homosexuality no longer a mental illness. in 1982, in the first two years of the reagan administration, the cdc using the term aids for the first time. in 1996, president

clinton signing the defense of marriage act. in 2011, president obama revoking don't ask don't tell. the pentagon ends the ban on transgender people serving openly in the military. 2019, president trump rescinding that ban. >> >> good morning. i am an activist, and i am transgender. i am kind of high up in the lgbt community here. i came out in new york in 1986. i met marshall johnson down by the village in the piers. i know the gay community did not like the drag queens because they were trying to mirror the straight community back then. marshall johnson was a black

trans person and sex worker that was at the stonewall riots. i know most of the photos and videos we have seen and my talking? >> >> yes. you are on the air. >> >> thanks. >> >> did you have another question or comment? >> >> yeah. i wonder why he doesn't mention the black drag queens that were out in front of the bar fighting that night like marshall johnson. >> >> thank you for the call. mark stein. >> >> the caller is absolutely right. as far as we can determine, some of the leading roles in the riots were played by african-americans, puerto ricans, trans people, street queens, drag queens. it is uncertain whether they represented a majority of the people that participated in the riots, but there are many

accounts that place them playing a key role, displaying real courage. some individuals that are often credited with instigating the riots, sylvia rivera, marshall johnson, stormy, there are still conflicting accounts about on when they were there. marsha p. johnson explains she was not there when the riots started, but she got there sometime later. if we take her at her word, she played an important role that night, and certainly other people of color did, trans people did, but she may not have been there when the riots started. >> >> let's go to dave. >> >> good morning. thank you for c-span. i was 20 years old. grew up on long island. i was a college student upstate. i would hitch down and go to the

bars. julius was the other bar. all mafia run. strange to me being a macho college student, weightlifter, young, but boy the stonewall was an amazing place. i would go in early in the evening before we went down christopher street way down towards the river towards danny's. i went in at about 10:00 in the evening to the stonewall. i would just walk through. it seemed all right.this seems normal early in the evening. then i would walk down to danny's. when i came back, maybe two hours later, and i have not heard this in a movie or commentary on c-span, last night wonderful program, people that were there,

the village voice reporter. i would say the queens they were the bravest. they were lighting garbage pails on fire. i saw this. they were lighting garbage pails on fire from the outside and throwing them in through the big window at the police. who else, i don't know. i remember standing on the bumpers of two cabs that were right there. this was the first night. i think i was back for the second night. it was hard to get back in. that is what i will never forget. the police were sort of trapped inside at the point i got there. they were lighting garbage cans and throwing them in the window. that is really true. you got a little better after that, a bit,

btut took years really, i guess to get where we are. years and years, decades and decades. i am 70 now. >> >> thank you for weighing in and share your own recollections from 50 years ago. mark stein. >> >> my book reprints the media reports and other counts of the stonewall riots from 1969. the first accounts provided by the new york times, daily news, and new york post refer to the rioters as homosexuals or young homosexuals. within a week, they were referring to the leading roles of what the times would refer to as transvestites or drag queens. the most extensive coverage of that was in the local gay newsletter of a local gay-rights organization. interestingly, the trans peri odicals of the

day, the ericsson educational foundation is letter news letter did not emphasize the riots. we also have the issue of translation 50 years later. today we tend to police the boundaries between gay and trans. in 1969, many people like marshall johnson and sylvia rivera were comfortable as refer to themselves as both gay and transvestite. they did not see those as mutually exclusive. >> we are looking back 50 years ago at the stonewall riots. our guest is mark stein. he is the author of a new book that looks back at what happened 50 years ago. we

spoke about police officers and police commissioner james o'neill on twitter with this apology for the way officers 50 years ago handled the situation. >> i think it would be irresponsible of me as we go through world pride month to talk about the events at the stonewall inn in june of 1969. i am not going to pretend to be expert on what happened at stonewall. i know what happened should not have happened. the actions taken by the nypd were wrong, plain and simple. the actions and the laws were discriminatory and depressive, and for that i apologize. to the lgbtq community, this would never happen in ny 2019. >> a

reaction to that apology from the new york city police commissioner? >> in general terms, i think the apology is a good first step. it is just that. it is a first step. i would like to see similar apologies by the police commissioners of the many cities where lgbtq people were killed in 1969. that would include los angeles, oakland. in addition, are we seeing leadership from city leaders, state governors, all the way to the federal government. we only have a few states were lgbt history is mandatory in the public schools. we still have policies at the local, state, and federal level with respect to trans people that could be addressed. where is the funding for lgbt history education,

lgbt history museums? there is an effort underway right now in new york city. there is a long-standing lgbt history museum in san francisco. we could see more of those projects funded by state and local government. more research into the history of lgbt abuse and harassment, including harassment by official government authorities. those would build on what is really just a symbolic apology at this point. >> from new jersey, richard, good morning. >> good morning. i wanted to discuss the beginning of my, um, coming out and going into new york. i used to go to the gay pride parade, but only went at night, because i did not want to go near tv cameras, and my very best friend, who was a school teacher, said that he could not go to the gay pride parades until the evening time, because

he was afraid that he would definitely lose his job as a school teacher. he was a spanish and italian teacher in new jersey and absolutely loved his job as a foreign language teacher. and i do remember enjoying halloween on christopher street. and then i think a big change was during the gay men's health crisis. i was with a friend, tony, in a storefront when they first started the gay men's health crisis, and they were setting up the telephone line and things like that, and the men that were much older than me i probably was 21, 22 tony said, because everybody was putting their name down on the piece of paper, and tony leaned over to them and said you know, he is extremely young. he is

petrified that his name will be on it. so in that storefront with the game and health crisis, i did not put my name on that piece of paper, because the first thing i thought was the nazis and the gay concentration camps and that i would be put in a camp and possibly killed for being gay. >> thank you. we should point out that christopher street is right behind you, marc stein, and that has become an iconic space for gays and lesbians, and it is also where the stonewall inn is situated. as you hear his story what is your reaction? >> i think one of the things is to look back at the early private marches and protests pride marches and protests at the

parade. there had been annual demonstrations in philadelphia in front of the hall on july 4. those began in 1965 and were held for five consecutive years, but the decision was made by activists in the fall of 1969 to switch the annual recognition of the lgbt struggle from philadelphia and independence hall to stonewall and new york city, and that became what we now know today as the gay pride parades. and eventually that spread around the united states and around the world. but those early gay pride marches, pride parades in 1971, 1973, it was quite brave to participate, and it was uncertain whether there would be violence from harassers who might come and confront the participants. it was unclear whether the police would grant permits, it'd thought, and los angeles, in 1970, was only shortly before what was called christopher street west that the parade organizers received official police permits to conduct the march, and they only did so under a judge's

order, so the first recognitions and commemorations of the stonewall rebellion required a lot of courage on the part of the organizers and the participants. but many of us believe that is where the stonewall riots acquired the significance that they have today. there had been other lgbt protests and demonstrations before stonewall, but stonewall became central to the way that we narrate lgbt history, really because of the annual commemorations every summer that have now gone on for 49 years. >> i want toput one point in perspective. walter jenkins, who, at the time, was one of the closest aides to president lyndon johnson, worked with him for 25 years when he was in the senate, vice president, and then president. he was married, the father of six children, and this is a photo of him, was forced out of the white house after he had a sexual liaison with a man at the ymca in washington, d.c. he was charged with a crime on morals charges.

and i mention that, in 1964 with where we are today, pete buttigieg, the south bend, indiana mayor, who is openly gay. now running for president. what does that tell you? >> i think openly lgbt candidates began running for office in the united states before stonewal were not generally successful, but they began to be successful in the early 1970's. the first were in ann arbor, michigan. city council members came out as gays and lesbians and then ran and won election. there was a state senator election, elaine noble and harvey milk winning for the board of supervisors in san francisco. shortly thereafter, a few governors, there still have

been a kind of limit to that kind of success in electoral and appointed office, so we have yet to have an openly lgbt cabinet member. we have yet to have an openly lgbt vice president or president. >> do you think the country would've liked an openly gay man as president in 2020? >> it is possible. buttigieg is telling the country it is possible, but i would remind everyone we have yet to have a woman president of the united states, so there are many groups in the american society that have yet to be represented at the highest levels of government, and i think it is certainly possible and maybe even likely that in

our lifetimes there will be an openly lgbt member of the supreme court, vice president, or president. >> and according to "the advocate, " there are 10 openly gay or lesbian senate members or in the house. we will hear from dan in ontario, california. good morning >> good morning. sorry, it is ontario, canada. i was wondering, here in canada, it has basically become a nonissue, and i noticed in the united states, there is a lot of attention paid to even the terminology that is used, like lgbtq, and it is just unfamiliar here, and i am sort of wondering if i could just get your opinion on the difference between how it is dealt with and then the language that is used and how that has evolved as well. >> thank you, dan. >> welcome i actually live in canada, and

toronto, for 16 years, so i know something about what you talked about with respect to canada. speaking back to the stonewall moment, it was actually at that moment that a number of countries began to partially decriminalize same-sex sex acts. that was the case, but right before the stonewall riots, for canada, west germany, and wales. but i know there is a controversy that has been going on in canada recently about the formal federal government apology or the criminalization of lgbt people and the unfinished nature of those reforms that occurred in the late 1960's and early 1970's, but i understand that there have been action, even this month, removing from the canadian criminal code some of the other criminal statutes that have been used to target lgbt people. so it is important it was not just saw to me that was sodomy that was

criminalized, lgbt were harassed and abused criminalized for disorderly conduct, lewd conduct, in canada, a body of house legislation and a variety of other criminal statutes. >> you are doing a great job. i know the trucks behind you sometimes can drown out the noise, but we appreciate it. we should point out you are at the park, now part of the national park service on christopher street, directly across from the stonewall inn. it is of course open to the public. our guest is marc stein, earned his doctorate from the university of pennsylvania. thomas on the phone from washington, new jersey. good morning. >> good morning to everybody as c-span, and good morning to professor stein. i have a quick question.

i'm an avid supporter of c-span. i want to say a little quick story. i know about stonewall and how much of a remarkable movement is started, a catalyst for the lgbtq movement, and i was walking alone by myself one day in manhattan, having my mind on a million different things, and i happened to come across a pure accident, i came across the stonewall memorial park. it is a very good feeling knowing that i was standing, inadvertently, in the middle of a catalyst for such a remarkable social justice movement, and i was really taken back, so again, in brief, i want to thank everyone at c-span and professor stein for sharing such a positive and transformative light on the subject and how remarkable this movement has been. thank you all, again, for your time. i appreciate it. >> tom, thank you for the call. marc stein, let me take his point and move it one step further. as an educator, how'd you teach stonewall? how should educators

teaches how and its significant, what happened years later? >> well, i think many of us are trying to improve lgbt education in colleges, universities, and high schools for some years. it is really important, i think, for it to be integrated into part of our general narrative for american history. it is one thing for there to be horses on lgbt history and colleges and universities, but it is another thing entirely went the lgbt history and the history of the stonewall riots gets incorporated into the general american history courses. so a number of us are working very hard on that right now. i think many of us try to teach that stonewall followed 20 years of

political organizing by lgbt people, so there was a pre-stonewall movement. many of us try to teach the much broader history of sexual and gender difference and variety in american history, stretching back centuries. and then of course it is important to follow the stories after the stonewall riots, how did the gay liberation movement develop in the 1970's, the less be in feminist movement, the transgender movement, the economists movement, and particularly strong in the late 1970's? how do that all change in the late 1980's with the aids crisis, and then what were the changes in more recent decades with legalization but also the complications of what it means to be recognized by local, state, and federal government and the possibilities that liberation might be limited, might be compromised, might be unfinished, in a variety of ways. i think that is what a lot of us try to teach when we emphasize lgbt history. >> and of course you have spent probably more time than most

historians looking back at stonewall. what has surprised you the most? >> uh, well, i think, this 50 year commemoration, i think many of us anticipated that there would be an explosion of public interest, but i think even as i was working on my new book, i think maybe i underestimated the extent of the public interest. so that is gratifying. it is an opportunity for us to teach about stonewall specifically but also teach about broader lgbt history and broader history of social justice movements and to connect the past to the present, so i think that has been an important aspect. i guess it is also frustrating we still do see many of the myths that circulate about stonewall,

claims that the stonewall began the movement rights the lgbt movement, when we know there was a previous movement. there are things on the internet that claimed to be from the stonewall riot that are not from the stonewall riots. we have photographic images and only one image published in the new york daily news that published the confrontation between the police and the rioeters. it creates opportunities but also a problem of once problematic representation is presented on the internet and that it can go viral and spread and then we end up with lots of misinformation and misinterpretation. >> our next caller is from ithaca, new york. aster, welcome back to the conversation. good morning. good morning. are you with us? >> yes, yes i am. can you hear me? >> we can now. go ahead with your question or comments. >> yes, thank you, first of all, for everyone behind the scenes

who put us all on every day. pastor michael vincent crea, and my ministry is ecological, egalitarian. one world life systems. stonewall needs not to just be an historical site, it needs to be an insight into our history, and i think mr. stein would concur that not only the commemoration of these events. and i did not come out until i left the seminary in 1983, and then i went into the peace corps, and i won a conference of case went i was fired, and one of the things they did was they fired me for being gay, in senegal. i had my masters

divinity, i passed my own human rights ministry, but my last paper at catholic university was same-gendered marriages, and what we do not realize is that what we need is a vehicle of veracity with a capacity to uphold those self-evident truths. and so what we would like, i would think we need, with all the talk and everything is good about the reparations, about voting rights, about eight equal glasses, i got fired by trinity church standing up for a south african transgendered woman to use the women's bathroom, that we need human rights courts. >> i will stop you there are thank you for sharing your story. marc stein? >> one of the things the caller and the size was religion and the potentially liberating role played by religion. before the

stonewall riots, religious leaders were important allies of the lgbtq movement, along with the american civil liberties union, an important ally for the pre-stonewall movement. in san francisco there was a council on religion and humans actual, which featured a number of ministers who allied with activists of that day and made important, groundbreaking efforts, and those continued after stonewall. so i would not think of the religious community as hostile to lgbt aspirations, but it is divided, and we have for several decades have religious denominations fighting for lgbt rightd and others who are at the forefront of opposing lgbt liberation. and even within some of those denominations that have been

hostile, there are divisions within and so efforts within even the catholic church or the mormon church to promote lgbt acceptance and lb gt lgbt rights.'s so it is an important struggle along with others that we think of in the popular media, school. >> 50 years after the riots, what does the rebels rainbow flag, which is behind you, represent to you as a historian? >> well, the rainbow flag emerge as one of the symbols and icons of the lgbt movement, and the many colors were meant to celebrate the diversity of the lgbt movement and community, so to emphasize that it is not an all-white community, it is not an all middle-class community,

it is not all men, but rather encompasses people from all backgrounds, all social groups, and american society and in the global community, and there have been calls to expand the colors on the rainbow flag even to even further and besides the lgbt movement community's activism. >> tony in denver, good morning. welcome to the program. >> thank you. mr. stein, a brilliant presentation on stonewall. i only had a cursory understanding before the show today, and i find this highly informative. two questions for you. one, how large is the lgbtq community? how large is the demographic? i am sure the statistic is probably hard to get at, because, you know, closeted people, but i would like to know that. second, as a historian are you concerned that i am concerned as a white

male about injustice for anybody who is not white over the last couple of years, and i'm wondering, as a historian, if you have a view are we going backward as a society, not just for lgbtq, but just in general for the social justice movement? answers to those questions would be helpful. thank you. >> thanks for the call. mr. stein? >> on the first question, quantitation is very difficult. we have lots of surveys stretching back to the kinsey study in the 1940's and 1950's. if the question is as merrily, we could get 1% to 3% to 10% of the population, but the question is asked broadly, we start to have much larger numbers and when you think of "queer, " that term has been invoked to represent a much broader array of people, and it

represents people who have ever had a moment of same-sex desire, everyone who has ever transgressed gender in every aspect of their life, we start to get much larger percentages. we might even say 100% of the population is potentially where, although of course, not everybody lives that, not everyone claims that identity, so it really depends on how we asked the question, how do we define to both letters of the alphabet. with respect to the current moment and whether we're making progress, taking a step back, you know, in many respects, these things tend to happen in cycles. there were important reforms during the obama administration, and as we see in many areas of social justice, retrenchment during the trump administration. there have of course been limits to that because we have three branches of the federal

government we have state and local governments, some of which are continuing to make important strides, so it is a complicated. sometimes we have two steps forward, one step back. sometimes we have one step forward, two steps back. and really depends on the question we are asking. so certain aspects of law, there has been progress. but in other aspects, there has been a retrenchment. and to go back to your first question, the notion that we each have to claim strict identities and avoid dealing with the complexities of gender and sexual fluidity, maybe we are not at such a great moment right now, because i have seen more and more insistance that people claim strict identities and don't embrace possible transformations, possible fluidity of gender and sexuality, across their own life courses. >> this headline from the "new york daily news, " and it reads as follows. "

nest raided. queen bees are stinging mad." marc stein, what do you think of that >> well, it is characteristic of press coverage of the stonewall riots. because michael offers some of the accounts from that summer, we get to compare how mainstream newspapers and magazines covered the riots to alternative papers, like "the village voice" in new york, and then "west coast" periodicals, and then we get to see lgbt press covers, so you would not have seen a headline like that in lgbt newspapers and magazines and newsletters of the day, but, you know, this was a way for mainstream news

papers to get famous to get readers, to get interest, and it can be then complicated to use those as sources, but they are important sources, and they help us understand how it is that people learn about stonewall. the national magazines of the day, "time" and "newsweek, " did not cover stonewall until the fall, until october, so it took several months for at least the magazines of the united states to see stone wall something significant and worthy of coverage. >> and you spoke earlier about the importance of the bars and taverns for the gay and lesbian community. nancy younger is a professor from santa clarita university, and from the c-span video library, looking back at the role they play for the lgbttq community. >> gays and lesbians

who came to age from 40'-60's say over and over again about how the rest their reputation, their marriages, their families, their livelihood by going to the gay bars, because the gay bars save their lives. they kept them from despairing that they were the only one, kept them from believing that society was right, that they were sick and criminal and would be better off dead. in the bars and nightclubs, they found hookups and one night stands. they also found partners and lovers and friends and people who accepted them as they were. they did not have to carry out the exhausting work of pretending to be straight. they could be themselves, and being true to yourself is very precious and is worth a lot of risk. lesbians during this period suffered double discrimination. even most gay men saw women as inferior. in the days before widespread feminism, a lesbian bar was the true place where women were not

pressure to cater to mentor and a lesbian in the 1940's said "we can throw off our girdles, our dresses, our high heels, " which was a uniform virtually required of women. lesbian can wear pants and be free from straight men'on one ineffectual attentions. >> that is from nancy unger, professor at santa clarita, from the c-span video library. i want to ask you, marc stein, what happened next after the stonewall riots demonstration? >> well, initially, the madison society tried to harness the energies unleashed by the riots, and there were follow-up protests and demonstrations in greenwich village and actually in queens, new york, where a public park

had been the site of harassment by vigilantes of lgbtq people. eventually come it became clear that the older home will file movement organizations were not going to be the main vehicles for the future, so there emerged a new organizations, the first in new york city was the gay liberation front. there was also the queens liberation front. radical lesbian forms representing lesbian politics, another representing people of color, and then the gay activists alliance in new york, which was a little less radical than the initial gay liberation front appeared the gay liberation front and other organizations that i mentioned were very committed to alliances with the black panthers, with the antiwar movement, with women's liberation. they participated in marches and other groups and they really were calling for a radical restructuring of

american society, a sexual and social restructuring, and political restructuring. the gay activists alliance, in contrast, decided to focus more supposedly on gay rights, and then that really set the trend for what followed for the next several years. very influential, very powerful, very active organization in new york city and similar organizations around the country. >> let me ask you about two more recent moments, edie winter and her role in challenging doma, benefits of marriage at. why was her case so significant? >> well, over time, the issues and priorities of the lgbtq movement changed. one of the lgbtq movement began prioritizing inclusion in the military, inclusion in marriage,

inclusion in family life, inclusion and religion, and that was contested within the lgbt movement. a lot of people thought of the radical revolutionaries of the gay liberation movement were antiwar. they did not want inclusion in the military. so there is that tension. nevertheless, the goal for many people of the lgbt movement was brought acceptance in all aspects of american life, and edie windsor really was an aspect of that part of the lgbt movement, so her role, the role of others, were absolutely central in establishing or achieving this major long-standing goal of the lgbt movement, which was for those people who want to marry, for those lgbt people who want to marry, that they have the right to do so. >> and in 2016, during one of the gay pride marches, rangers, those from

the national park service, joining in the gay pride movement. so what does that tell you about where police and authorities were in 1969 and where we are today? >> well, again, i think today there are conflicting feelings about the dissipation of the police, the military, elected officials, representatives of local, state, and federal governments. on the one hand, it represents inclusion, and it is a far cry from the situation 50 years ago. on the other hand, those levels of government, local, state, and federal fully acknowledge the harassment of violence committed in the name of local, state, and federal, our they fully addressing today's cutting-edge issues, right? and so there is that

double-edged aspect of participation of local, state, and federal officials, including representatives of the national park service. are they doing everything that they could be to make up for past wrongs and to address ongoing struggles? >> in a half a minute, the cover of your book represents what in your mind? why did you select it? >> well, it is a photograph from the week of the stonewall riots, and it is actually a staged photograph. as i mentioned earlier, we only have one image of the confrontation between protesters and police, and we do not even have the original, so most of the will see it is a grainy image of a newspaper photograph, but the fred photographs were staged, mostly taken on the evening of june 28, so the second night of rioting. these were a groups of

participants who he gathered and we see people who at least look to us to be african-american, puerto rican, we see trans people, you will energy of the participants. we see camping, we see same-sex affection and intimacy in the fred mcdarrah photographs. so we see some of what was going on during the week of the rioting. >> author, historian and professor at san francisco university, marc stein, who is joining us from christopher street in greenwich village, new york, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you so much for having me.