me bring you back to this case, 50 years ago today. why is it relevant today? >> well, it's relevant today because the world is not -- has not shed its problems. in a lot of ways there is an indication that it has hardly progressed on some of its problems and some of its problems have become much worse. so freedom of speech in the schools, among the students who have the future in front of them is absolutely essential in my opinion. >> john tinker joining us from des moines, of course, part of the landmark case tinker v. des moines. thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me. it's a pleasure. lectures in history, american artifacts, reel

america, the civil war, oral histories, the presidency and special event coverage about our nation's history. enjoy american history tv now and every weekend on c-span 3. >> having to lie i feel is the saddest and the ugliest part of being homosexual, when you have your first bad love experience, for instance, and you can't go to your brother and sister and say i'm hurting. >> at first i was very guilty and then i realized that all the things that are taught you not only by society but by psychiatrists just to fit you in a mold and i have just rejected the mold and when i rejected the mold, i was happier. >> these are mostly independent organizations all across the

country, there's somewhere between 60 and 75 independent groups across the united states, maybe more now because it keeps growing up overnight. this is a unified effort on the part of somewhere between 20 and 30 organizations on the east coast. there are differences primarily of approach and of tactics. certain groups, for example, tend to emphasize very militant confrontation fact particulars, other groups will emphasize a more educational approach, going out into areas where there are what you might call people who -- middle america people who don't know very much about homosexuality and other groups will emphasize different things. most groups provide some kind of social services for people, help for people in need, but this is a minor part of the effort. the major effort today is to change the social institutions that make life difficult for us. ♪

>> a portion of a film documentary and this is what the stonewall inn looks like today. inside the sunday "new york times" is a look at the demonstrations that took place in july 1969. joining us from greenwich village, new york, is marc stein, he is the editor of the stonewall riots, the documentary history. thank you for being with us on c-span and c-span 3, american history tv. we appreciate it. >> thanks very much for having me. >> so take us back 50 years ago this week. what happened? >> well, the police in that period routinely raided gay bars and that was certainly the case in new york city and there was actually a raid on the stonewall inn a few days earlier and on

the night of june 27th the police began a raid and things proceeded in a fairly routine manner. some of the patrons were allowed to exit the bar and some were detained. it was very common for the police to detain bar owners, bar managers, bartenders, people of color, people who transgressed gender, so in the lingo of the day transvestites or drag queens or street queens and then people who talked back or fought back. so some people were detained inside the bar, others began exiting the bar, but on that night and by this time it was the early morning hours of june 28th, patrons and passersby began gathering on the street outside and as the police tried to bring those they had detained into police wagons, the crowd began to erupt. and over the next few nights

there ensued rioting in the streets, protests, demonstrations. at one point the police were actually trapped inside the bar until reinforcements arrived, the tactical police were -- the riot control police were called and tried to reestablish order on the streets, but the rioting proceeded over several days over the course of the next week. >> but why this location? why the stonewall inn? and why june of 1969? what triggered this particular set of riots? >> well, it's a complicated question. the stonewall inn was mafia owned and managed as were many gay bars in new york city and some other american cities, and there was a system of payoffs whereby the bar owners, managers, paid off the police in order to limit, although never completely restrict, police raids on the bars. but the police would raid the bars, even if there were these

payoff systems in place. there are a lot of different accounts of why the police raided the bar that night, the payoff system might have broken down. there was a mayoral election that was going on and that was often a time when police would raid bars as part of a crackdown on vice, so the city administration would appear to be promoting law and order. there were allegations of violations of liquor licensing laws, disorderly conduct, blackmailing, other allegations about the stonewall inn in particular. so that's probably why the stonewall itself was targeted. why june 1969? that's a question that historians have been debating for along a long time. in global terms 1968 was really a major year that witnessed rebellions and revolutions around the world, as well as police reaction, state reaction,

violent state repression. so in some respects we can see the stonewall riots in 1969 as an outgrowth of the worldwide developments happening, and then there were also local and nationals developments. as i mentioned, the mayoral election. just days, weeks before the riots took place mayor john lindsay had lost the republican primary to be reelected. now, lindsey was known to be a friend of the gay community in the late '60s and he ended up winning the election in 1969, but he did so on a third-party ticket and so in late june nobody knew that he was going to end up winning. there also around that time was a series of police killings of lgbt people around the country, los angeles, berkley, oakland, california, and in new york city. i think that contributed to the rage and the anger and the fury that lgbt people felt that night

and in the days and weeks surrounding the stonewall riots. >> our conversation with marc stein, he is a professor of history at san francisco state university and he is the he had core of this book "the stonewall rio riots: a documentary history." we will get to your calls and comments. we do have lines regionally and we do have a line for the lgbt community 202-748-8002. marc stein, if you could for just a moment describe physically where you are situated. >> well, directly behind me is the new stonewall national monument which was created during the obama administration. it's a small park, triangular park, and behind the park is the stonewall inn itself. it's the two-story building with beige stucco and alongside of it a three-story building that was also part of the stonewall inn. this is in greenwich village in new york city in lower

manhattan. >> what do the monuments represent? >> well, when obama referenced stonewall alongside seneca falls and selma in his inaugural address it really signaled a recognition that lgbt activism, lgbt -- the lgbt movement was part of the broader aspirational struggles for social justice in the united states. that was a very powerful symbolic statement on the part of obama as president of the united states as the first african-american president of the united states. and then establishing this space, this monument here, just as another way of signaling the road that's been traveled over the last -- not just 50 years, but even longer, to achieve lgbt equality, a still unfinished process, i might add, but it's quite complicated with the

stonewall national monument because this is an action on the part of the federal government which for many, many decades was quite oppressive towards lgbt people. still we have problems with federal policy and so there's a kind of paradox, right, that the federal government has recognized this space and yet continues to adopt policies currently, the best example might be the ban on transgender military service members. so there's that paradox of recognition by the federal government, but also ongoing struggles and problems with the federal government. >> and you mentioned the speech by barack obama, his second inaugural speech on january 21st, 2013. from the west front of the u.s. capitol, here is what he said. >> we the people declare today that the most evident of truths, that all of us are created

equal, is the star that guides us still. just as it guided our forbearers through seneca falls and selma and stonewall, just as it guided all those men and women sung and unsung that left footprints along this great mall to hear a preacher say that we cannot walk alone. to hear a king proclaim that our freedom is bound to the freedom of every soul on earth. >> that with then now former president barack obama in 2013. one more point, marc stein, about your location because the stonewall inn itself is, i guess, the best way to say it is a rather cozy bar, it's not very big, is it? >> it's not very big in the large scheme of things, but actually it was known in 1969 as one of the larger gay bars in new york city and in greenwich village. it features dancing, it featured

go go boys and so actually compared to some real holes in the wall, the stone wall inn was known to be relatively spacious. >> and why were these locations so important at that time to the gay and lesbian community? >> well, in 1969 same-sex sex was basically illegal in 49 out of 50 american states. there were also laws, federal, state and local laws that regulated lgbt speech, that regulated lgbt participation in many aspects of public life, difficult to get government jobs at the local state and federal levels in 1969. bars, though, were a congregation place. were a place where lgbt people could come together, socialize together, enjoy time together and in that sense some people argued that the bar was for the

lgbt community what the church was for the african-american community or what the factory was for the labor movement, the central space for gathering, becoming active, developing ideas about social justice and equality. >> and in order to kind of get a sense of how the media covered the gay and lesbian community back in the 1960s i want to share with you and our audience a portion of a now cbs documentary one that dan rather apologized for but mike wallace in 1967 the title of the program was called "the homosexuals". >> most americans are repelled for the notion of homosexuality. two out of three americans look upon homosexuals with disgust, discomfort or fear. one out of ten says hatred. a vast majority believe that home sex ults is an illness, only 10% say it is a crime and yet, and here is the paradox, the majority of americans favor

legal punishment even for homosexual acts performed in private between consenting adults. the homosexual responds by going underground. they frequent their own clubs and bars and coffee houses where they can act out in the fashion that they want to, where they can escape the disapproving eye of the society that they call straight. >> that from cbs news and, marc stein, i know you are a familiar with this program as you hear that and a say that, your reaction. >> well, the media was changing in the second half of the 1960s as was the lgbt movement. so i think that program was quite soundly criticized by the pre stonewall lgbt movement but there were other media stories that were more accepting and more open to change, one example would be "the new york times" magazine published a major story called "civil rights and the homosexual" in 1967.

the "wall street journal" in 1968 published a major feature story on the gay rights movement. and more generally the lgbt movement had success in the second half of the '60s and that was -- that was certainly true in new york city. so under the lindsey administration there was a decline in sexual entrapment practices on the part of police, a decline in the arrest for sexual solicitation, some successes in court decisions that allowed gay bars a little bit more freedom to exist and to prosper and thrive. so things were changing, actually, in the second half of the 1960s. when we turn to the stonewall riots themselves the media reports were interesting conflicting and ever changing. so in that first week "the new york times," new york post, new york daily news did all cover the stonewall riots but it was buried news, it was not prominent front page news. the village voice did major

stories on the stonewall riots and had reporters on the scene even trapped inside the bar during the riots and those were much more significant stories, but it was really the alternative press and the lgbt press that covered the riots more sympathetically, more comprehensively and those are the stories that historians rely on along with oral histories, police reports and photographs for rounding out the picture of what happened that week. >> and one of those the documentary of lily vin sense which are we are featuring on american history tv, our guest is marc stein, he is joining us from greenwich village, new york, he is also the author of "rethinking the gay and lesbian movement" and city of sister-in-law and brotherly love says we talk about the riots a turning point for the lgbt community. tom is on the phone from flint, michigan. good morning. >> caller: hey, good morning to both of you gentlemen and to all

of the viewers. this will be pretty brief. just a little context. i'm a navy veteran, a gay navy veteran and grew up in a very much cathol i am a gay navy veteran and grew up in a catholic household. this issue is portrayed many different ways by many different folks and corners of society. but what it really is, it's about love. it's not about sex, i mean so much. it's about love, and, you know, good luck to anybody who is determined to fight love, because, you know, you're really -- you're really fighting quite a force right there. and, you know, coming from a religious background, the last thing i'll mention is, you know, lgbtq issues are often by the

religious right mentioned in the same breath as, oh, abortion and a culture of death, and things of this nature. but there's so much in the bible that's just taken way out of context and adhered to selectively. so it's about love, period. have a wonderful weekend. >> hey, tom, if you could stay on the line just for a moment, have you personally felt discrimination as an openly gay american? >> i'm glad you asked that. and, you know, just because i value other viewers' time also as well as you two gentlemen. i served 20 years in the navy, retired, and i -- you know, i guess about 50% of it, sorry my voice is kind of croaky this morning, but about 50% of it was under so-called quote, quote, don't ask, don't tell. and the other 50% like my first

ten years in the military was under the republican-preferred do ask and, you know, or we'll ask and do tell. and that was particularly prepressive and draconian and could land you out on the street out of a job in the military extremely easily. i think bill clinton takes a lot of grief for don't ask, don't tell, but in fact it was a huge step forward from what was in place before that. and, yes, you know, steve, the last half of my sentence here will be, repression, you know, growing up in a particularly religious household, you better believe it. and thanks for asking. >> tom, thank you. marc stein, what are you hearing in his story? >> well, i think it's interesting to see the movement

as focused on issues of love-the pre-stonewall movement we generally call the homo file movement, file chosen as the key term because it focused on love rather than sex. the gay liberation that developed after stonewall and to some extents even in the moz before the riots i would say placed equal emphasis on love, intimacy, and sex. sex was very central, they wanted to liberation of same-sex, they wanted their identities to be recognized, affirmed and validated. so for at least a few years, sexu sexual issues were quite central to the movement immediately after the stonewall riots. >> post, here's a look at some of the highlights for the gay, lesbian and transgender, in 1973

the american psychiatric association declaring no longer a mental illness. and then in 1982, the cdc using the term a.i.d.s. for the first time. in 1996 president clinton signing the defense of marriage act. in 2011 obama revokes, don't ask, don't tell. then later, the pentagon ends the ban on transgender people serving openly in the military. but in trent 19 president trump rescinding that ban involving transgender service. let's get to tannia on the phone from new york city. >> caller: good morning. i'm tonia walker, an activist in new york city, transgender, high up in the lgbtq community here. i came out the military to new york in 1986, and i met marcia

p. johnson down by the vil age. i know, you know, that the gay community didn't like the drag queens because they were trying to mirror the straight community back then. marcia p. johnson was a marginalized transgender and a sex worker who was at the riots and fighting with the cops. i notice that most of the photos and videos we see -- am i talking? >> yes, you're on the air, tania. >> caller: oh, thanks. >> did you have another question or comment? >> caller: yeah. and i wonder why he doesn't mention the black drag queens who were in front of the bar fighting that night like marcia p. johnson and sylvia was also a part. >> thank you for the call. marc stein. >> the caller is absolutely right. as far as we can determine, some of the leading roles in the

riots were played by african-americans, puerto ricans, transpeople, street queens, drag queens. it's still quite uncertain as to whether they represented a majority of the people who participated in the riots. but there are many accounts that place them at the key moments leading the riots, displaying a real courage, a campy courage, we might say. some individuals who are often credited with instigating the riots, leading the riots, sylvia rivera, marcia p. johnson, stormy delovery, there are still conflicting accounts about whether they were there. mar sha p. johnson explained she wasn't there when the riots started but got there sometime later. if we take her at her word, yes, she played an important role that night and certainly other people of color did, transpeople did, but she may not have been there right when the riots

started. >> dave in new york city. good morning. >> caller: hi, good morning. thanks. i was 20 years old, and, you know, come down, grew up on long slooinld, i was a college student upstate. i would hitch downtown. julius was the other bar. all mafia run. strange to me sort of being a macho kind of college student wearing square, weight lifter, wearing lacrosse shirts. but boy, the stonewall was an amazing place. i would go in early in the evening before we went down christopher street, way down towards the river, towards the new bar, danny's, which i hadn't heard mentioned. so i went in at about 10:00 in the evening to the stonewall, maybe after julia, so i'd go into them, just walk through. and it seemed all right. seemed normal early in the evening.

then i walked down to danny's. when i came back, maybe two hours later, it was -- and i haven't heard this in the movie or the commentary that i saw on c-span last night, a wonderful program, people that were there, those -- reporter. i would say the queens, they were the bravest. they were lighting garbage. i saw this. they were lighting garbage pails on fire from the outside and throwing them in through the big window at the -- the police were inside at that time. who else? i don't know. i stood outside. i remember standing on the bumpers of two cabs that were parked right there in front of it. and this is the first night. i don't think i was there on the second night. i was back on the island. it was hard to get in. that's what i will never forget. the police were sort of trapped inside at the point that i got

back there. and they were lighting garbage cans and throwing them in the window. that's all i want to say, that's really true. it got a little better after that, a bit, but took years, really, i would guess, to get to where we are, years and years, decades and decades. i'm 70 now. >> dave, thanks for weighing in and sharing your own r recollections from 50 years ago this week. marc stein, your reaction? >> yes, my book reprints 30 media reports and other accounts of the stonewall riots from 1969. it's quite interesting to see that the first accounts provided by "the new york times" daily news "new york post" referred to the riotsers as home zbloeks waulz or young homosexuals. but within weeks they were

referring to the leading role as transvestites or drag queens or street queens. the most extensive coverage of that was in the local gay newsletter of the mattis sheen society, a local gay rights association. the trans peer odcals, the transveftia, didn't cover the riots. but the gay oriented madison society newsletter emphasized the prominent role played by street queens and drag queens. things are quite complicated. we also have the issue of translation years later. today we tend to police the boundaries between gay and trans. but in 1969, many people like marcia p. johnson, sylvia rivera, were comfortable as talking about themselves as

transvestites and gay. >> to our viewers tuning in, we are looking back 50 years ago, the stonewall riots. our guest from greenwich village new york is marc stein. we've been talking about new york city police officers, the police commissioner james o'neal on twitter with this apology for the way officers 50 years ago handled the situation. >> i think it would be irresponsible adds me as we go through world pride month not to speak of the events at the stonewall inn in june of 1969. i'm not going to pretend to be an expert on what happened there. i do know what happened should not have happened. the actions taken by the nypd were wrong, plain and simple. the actions and the laws were discriminatory and oppressive, and for that i apologize. [ applause ]

to the lgbtq community this would never happen in nypd 2019. >> reaction to that apology from the new york city police commissioner? >> well, in general terms, i think the apology is a good first step. but it is just that, a first step. i'd like to see similar apologies by the police commissioners of the many cities where lgbt people were killed in 19 jo 1969 by the police, los angeles, berkeley, california, oakland, california. those would be steps alongside the actions of the new york city police commissioner. but in addition, are we see leadership from city mayors, from state governors and then all the way to the federal government? we still have only a few states

where lgbt history education is mandatory in the public schools. we still have policies local state and federal level especially with with respect to trans people that could be addressed. where is the funding for lgbt history museums? there's an effort underway in new york city, there's a longstanding lgbt history museum in san francisco. we could see more of those funded by city, state and local governments. more research into the history of lgbt abuse and harassment, including by official government authorities. those would be steps that would build on what's a symbol i can apology at this point. >> from new jersey, richard, good morning. >> caller: good morning. i wanted to discuss the begineling of my coming out and going into new york. i used to go to the gay pride

parades, but only when at night because i didn't want to go near tv cameras. and my very best friend who was a school teacher said that he couldn't go to the gay pride parades until the evening time because he was afraid that he would definitely lose his job as a school teacher. he was a spanish and italian teacher in new jersey, and absolutely loved his job as a foreign language teacher. and i do remember enjoying halloween on christopher street. and then i think a big change was during the guy men's health crisis, i was with a friend, tony, in a storefront when they first started the guy men's health crisis, and they were setting up the telephone lines and things like that. and these men that were much older than me, i probably was

21, 22, tony said, because everybody was putting their name down on the piece of paper, and tony leaned over to them and said, he's extremely young, he's petrified that his name will be on anything. so in that storefront with the gay men's health crisis, i didn't put my name on that piece of paper because first thing i thought was the nazi reign and the gay concentration camps and i would be put in a camp and possibly killed for being gay. >> christopher street is behind you, marc stein, and that's become an iconic place for gays and lesbians, also where the stonewall inn is situated. as you hear his story, what's your reaction? >> i think one of the things that's interesting is for us to look back at the early pride marchs and protesters and pa raids, the first took place in

1970 to commemorate the stonewall riots. there had been earlier commemorations in philadelphia in front of independence hall on july fourth. those began in 1965 and held for five years. the decision was made by movement activists in the fall of 1969 to switch the annual recognition of the lgbt struggle from philadelphia and independence hall to stonewall and new york city. that became the gay pride parades. that of course spread around the united states and the world. but those early pride parades in 1971, 1972, 1973, it was quite brave to participate and uncertain whether there would be violence from harassers who might come and confront the participants. it was unclear whether the police would grant permits and

in fact in los angeles, in 1970, it was only before shortly what was called christopher street west, that the parade organizers received official police permits to conduct the march. and they only did so under a judge's order. so these first recognitions and commemorations of the stonewall rebellion required a lot of courage on the part of the organizers and participants. but many of us believe that that's when the stonewall riots acquired the significance that they have today. there had been other lgbt protesters and temstrations before stonewall, but stonewall became central to the way that we narrate lgbt history, really because of the annual commemorations every summer that have now gone on for 49 years. >> i want to put one point in perspective. walter jenkins who at the time was one of the closest aides to

president lyndon johnson, worked with him, he was married, the father of six children, and this is a photograph of walter jenkins, who was forced out of the white house after he had a sexual will i aceon with another man. at the ymca he was charged with a crime on morals charges. i mention that in 1964 to where we are today with pete buttigieg, the mayor of south bend, indiana, openly gay and among the top tir nominations. as you look at that arc of tistry, what does that tell you? >> openly lgbt candidates began running for office before stonewall. weren't generally successful. but there began to be successes in the early 1970s. the first actually were in an asher michigan, city counsel members came out as gay and

lesbian and ran and won election. then there was a state senator elected in massachusetts, elaine noble and harvey milk winning for the board of supervisors in san francisco. running for congress then shortly tle shortly therefore, a few governors, there has been a kind of limit to that kind of success in electoral and appointive office. we have yet to have an openly lgbt cabinet member, lgbt vice president or president. >> is the country -- do you think the country would elect an openly gay man as president in 2020? >> it's an interesting question, and i think buttigieg is showing the country that it is imaginable, it is possible. but, you know, and i would also remind everyone that we have yet to have a woman president of the

united states. so there are many groups in american society who have yet to be herepresented at the highest levels of government. and i think it's certainly possible and maybe even likely that in our lifetimes there will be openly lgbt member of the supreme court, vice president or president. >> and according to advocate, there are ten openly gay or lesbian members of the house or senate. we'll show you that. we hear from dan in ontario california. >> caller: it's ontario canada. but i was wondering here in canada it's basically become a nonissue. i notice in the united states there's a lot of attention paid to even the terminology that's used, like lgbtq, and it's just unfamiliar here. and i'm sort of wondering, i

could just get your opinion on the difference between how it's dealt with and then the language that's used and how that's evolved as well. >> thank you, dan. >> well, i actually lived in canada in toronto for 16 years, so i know something about what you're talking about with respect to canada. thinking about up to the stonewall moment it was actually exactly at that moment that a number of countries began to partially decrimnalize consensual same-sex sex acts. that was exactly for canada, west germany and wales. but it was partial. i know there's a controversy that's been going on recently about the formal federal government apology for the criminalization of lgbt people, and the unfinished nature of those reforms that occurred in the late nig1960s and early 197.

but i understand there's been action even this month from removing from the canadian criminal code some of the other criminal statutes that have been used to target lgbt people. so it's important to remember it's not just sodomy that is criminalized, same-sex sex. lgbt people were harassed and -- lewd conduct, on scenty law, in canada body house legislation and a variety of other criminal statutes. >> you're doing a great job. i know the trucks behind you sometimes can drown out the noise. but we appreciate it. we should point out that you are at the park that is part of the national park service on christopher street directly across from the stonewall inn. it's open to the public. our guest is marc stein.

earned his doctorate from the university of pennsylvania. tom is on the phone from washington, new jersey. >> caller: quick comment. i'm an avid supporter. i've been watching for years. i would like to say a little quick story. i knew about the stonewall and how much of a remarkable movement it started. the catalyst for the lgbtq movement. and i was just walking alone by myself one day in manhattan and had my mind on a lot of different things and happened to come across by pure accident came across the stonewall memorial park. and it's very good feeling, knowing that i was standing inadvertently in the middle of a catalyst for such a remarkable social justice movement. i was really taken back. so again just in brief, i want to thank c-span, everyone at

c-span, and professor stein for shining a transformative light on the subject, and how remarkable this movement has been. thank you all for your time. i appreciate it. >> thank you for the call. marc stein, let me take his point and move it further, how do you teach stonewall? how should teachers education this generation exactly in terms of what happened and its significance 50 years later? >> well, i think many of us have been trying to improve lgbt history education in colleges, universities and high schools, for some years. it's really important i think for it to be integrated into our general narratives of american history. it's one thing for there could be courses on lgbt history in colleges and universities, but it's another thing entirely when lgbt history and the history of the stonewall riots gets inkoefrp rated into the general

history courses. a number of us are working hard on that right now. i think many of us try to teach that stonewall followed 20 years of political organizing by lgbt people. so there was a pre-stonewall movement. many of us try to teach the much broader history of sexual and gender history. so stretching back centuries. it's important to follow the story after the stonewall riots. how did the gay liberation movement develop in the 1970s? the lesbian feminist movement? the transgender movement? how did people of color organize autonomous lgbt movements growing particularly strong in the late 1970s? how did that change in the 1980s with the a.i.d.s. crisis? and then what were the changes in more recent decades with legalization but also the complications of what it means to be recognized by local state

and federal governments and the possibilities that liberation might be limited? might be compromised? might be unfinished in a variety of ways? so i think that's what a lot of us try to teach when we emphasize lgbt history. >> and of course you have spent probably more time than most historians looking back at the evoents of stonewall. what has surprised you the most? >> well, i think this 50-year commemoration, i think many of us anticipated that there would be an explosion of public interest. but i think even as i was working on my new book, i think maybe i under estimated the extent of the public interest. so that's gratifying. it's an tund for us to teach about tonewall specifically but also teach about broader lgbt history and broader history of social justice movements, and to connect the past to the present.

so that's i think been an important aspect. i guess it's also frustrating, we still do see many of the myths that circulate about stonewall. claims that the stonewall riots started the lgbt movement when we know there was a pre-existing movement. we see a lot of photographs being circulated on the internet that purport to be from the stonewall riots that are not from the stonewall riots. we actually have quite limited photographic evidence of what was going on, and really only one image published in the new york daily news that captures the confrontation between the police and the rioters. so the internet creates the problem, many opportunities but also the problems of once a problematic representation is presented on the internet, and then it can go viral and spread, and then we end up with lots of misinformation and misinterpretation.

>> our next caller is from ithaca new york. pastor, welcome back to the conversation. good morning. >> good morning. can you hear me? >> i can. >> caller: thank you to all of you behind the scenes who put us all. it's pastor michael crea, my ministry is he can logical egal tare, one world life systems. stonewall needs not just to be a historical site. it needs to be an insight into our history. and mr. stein, i think, would concur that not only the commemoration of this -- these events, and i didn't come out until i left the seminary in

'83. and then i went into peace core, and i won the most comprehensive case in peace corps when i was wrongly fired. and one of the things they fired me for was being gay in senegal. i passed my own human rights ministry. but my last paper at catholic university was same-gendered marriages. what we do not realize is that what we need is a vehicle of voracity with the capacity to uphold those self-evident truths. what we would like, i would think we need, with all the talk and everything is good about the reparations, about voting rights, about equal access, i followed my trinity church standing up for a south african transgendered woman to use the

woman's bathroom, that we need human rights courts. >> i'm going to give our guest a chance to respond. thank you for sharing your story. >> one of the things the caller emphasized was religion. before the stonewall riots, religious leaders were important allies of the lgbt movement along with i would say the american civil liberties union which was the most important before stonewall. in san francisco there was a very influential counsel on religion and the homosexual which features ministered who allied with the lgbt activists of that day and made important groundbreaking efforts in california. and those efforts continued after stonewall. so i think there's often a tendency now to think of the religious community as hostile to or at odds with lgbt

aspirations. but in fact religious communities are divided. and we've now had for several decades religious denominations in the forefront for fighting for lgbt inclusion and rights and others in the forefront of opposing lgbt liberation. and even within some of those denominations that have been hostile there's divisions within. efforts within even the catholic church or mormon church to promote lgbt acceptance and rights. religious communities have been an important site of struggle along with the others, our schools, the media, popular culture, law, politics. >> 50 years after the riots, which moved into early july, what does the rainbow flag which is hipped ybehind you represent as a historian? >> well the rainbow flag emerged as one of several symbols and

icons of the lgbt movement. and the many colors was meant to celebrate the diversity of the lgbt movement and community. so to emphasize that it's not an all-white community. it's not an all-middle class community. it's not all men, but rather encompasses people from all backgrounds, all social groups, in american society, in the global community. and there have been calls to expand the colors on the rainbow flag to even further emphasize the diversity of lgbt communities, movements, activism. >> tony in denver, good morning. welcome to the program. >> caller: thank you. mr. stein, brilliant presentation on stonewall. i only had a cursory understanding before the show today, and i find this highly informative. i have two questions for you. one, how large is the lgbtq

community? how large is the demographic? i'm sure the statistic is probably hard to get at because the closeted people. but i'd like to know that. and second, as a historian, are you concerned? i'm concerned, as a white male, about injustice for anybody who's not white over the last couple years. and i'm wondering if as a historian, if you have a view, are we going backwards as a society not just for lgbtq but just in terms of general social justice movements? answers to those two questions would be helpful. thank you. >> tony, thanks for the call. mr. stein? >> on the first question, quantification is very, very difficult. we have lots of surveys stretching back all the way to the kincy studies in the '40s and '50s.

if it's asked narrowly we get 1% to 3% or 5% of the but if the question is asked broadly it's much larger. when we think of queer that term has been used to evoke a much broader array of people. and if it represents everybody who has ever had a moment of same-sex desire, everybody who has ever transgressed gender in any aspect of their life we start to get much, much larger percentages. we might say that 100% of the population is potentially queer, although of course not everybody lives that life and claims that identity. so it really depends on how we ask the question, how we define the letters of the alphabet. with respect to the opportunity moment and whether we're making process, taking a step back, you know, i think in many respects these things tend to happen in

cycles. there were important reforms during the obama administration. and as we've seen in many areas of social justice, a retrenchment and reaction during the trump administration. there are of course been limits to that because we have three branches of the federal government, state and local, some of which continuing to make important strides. so it's complicated. and sometimes we have two steps forward, one step back. sometimes we have one step forward, two steps back. and again it really depends on the question we're asking. so if certain aspects of law, there's been progress. but in other aspects, there's been a retrenchment. and we go back to your first question, the notion that we each have to claim strict identities and avoid dealing with the complexities of gender and sexual fluidity, maybe we're not at such a great moment right now. because i at least see more and more insistence that people

claim strict identities and don't embrace possible transformation, possible fluidity of gender and sexuality across our own life courses and then across history. >> this headline from the new york dally news and it reads as follows, homo nest raided, queen bees are stinging mad. marc stein, what do you think of that headline? >> well, it was characteristic of some of the mainstream press coverage of the stonewall riots. because my book offers basically 30 accounts of the stonewall riots from that summer, we get to see -- we get to compare how mainstream newspapers and magazines covered the riots to alternative papers like the village voice in new york, the east village other, rat and through, and west coast peer

odcals like berkeley tribe. and then lgbt press coverage. so you would not have seen a headline like that in lgbt newspapers and magazines and letters of the day. but this was a way for mainstream newspapers to get readers, to get interest, and it can be you know then complicated to use those sources, but they are important sources and they help us understand how it is that people learned about stonewall. interestingly, the national magazines of the day, time and news week didn't cover stonewall until the fall, october, so it took several months before at least the magazines of the united states to see stonewall as something significant and worthy of coverage. >> you spoke earlier about the importance of the bars and taverns for the gay and lesbian community. nancy younger is a professor at santa clara you know versety. looking back at the role they played for the lgbtq community.

>> gays and lesbians who came of age in the he '40s, '50s and '60s, speak over and over and over again of how they risked their reputations, marriages, families, their livelihoods, by going to gay bars. because the gay bars saved their lives. they kept them from despairg that they were the only ones. kept them from believing that society was right, that they were sick and criminal and would be better off dead. in the bars and nightclubs, they found hookups and one-night stands. they also found partners and lovers and friends and people who accepted them as they were. they didn't have to carry out the exhausting work of pretending to be straight. they could be themselves. and being true to yourself is very precious, and it's worth a lot of risk.

lesbians during this period suffered double discrimination. even most gay men saw women as inferior. in the days before widespread feminism, the lesbian bar was the truly rare place where women were not pressured to cater to men. a lesbian in the 1940s said we could throw off our girdles, dresses, high heels, which that was the uniform required. lesbians could wear pants and be free from straight men's unwanted sexual attention. >> that from the c span video library. i want to move beyond the riots in june and early july of 1969 and ask you, marc stein, what happened next after the stonewall inn demonstrations? >> well, initially the existing gay rights organization in new york city, the madi shooen

society tried to harness the energy unleashed. and there were follow-up protesters in greenwich village and in queens, new york, where a public park had been the site of harassment by vigilantes of lgbt people. but it became clear that the earlier homo phobe vehicles were not going to be the vehicle for the future. there emerged new organizations. the first one was the gay liberation front. there was also the queen's liberation front. a little while later the lesbian front. third world gay revolution representing people of color. and then the gay activist alliance in new york, which was a little los radical than the initial gay liberation front. gay liberation front and the others were very committed to

alliances with the black panthers, with the antiwar movement, with women's liberation. they participated in marches and demonstrations of those other groups. and they really were calling for a radical restructuring of american society, sexual, social, and april restructuring. the gay activist alliance in contrast decided to focus more exclusively on gay rights. and that really then set the trend for what followed for the next several years. very influential, very powerful, very active organization in new york city and similar organizations around the country. >> let me ask you about two more recent moments in the role of edi windsor in her role in challenging doma, the defense of marriage act. why was her participation, her case, so significant? >> well, over time, the issues and priorities of the lgbt

movement changed. and so the more mainstream aspects of the lgbt movement began prioritizing inclusion in the military, inclusion in marriage, inclusion in family life, inclusion in religion. and that was contested within the lmg bt movement. many people thought that the radical revolutionaries of the gay liberation movement were antiwar. they didn't want inclusion in the military. were opposed to mon ogmy and conventional family life. so there's that tension. nevertheless for many people the goal of the lgbt movement was broad acceptance, equality in all aspects of life. and edi windsor really was an aspect of that part of the lgbt movement. and so her role, the role of ober gaffel, were absolutely central then in establishing and achieving this major lang

standing goal of the lgbt movement, for those people who want to marry, that they have the legal right to do so. >> and in 2016, during one of the gay pride marchs, rangers, those from the national park service groinijoining in the gae movement. where does that tell you about where police were in 1969 and where we are today? >> i think today there is conflicting feelings about the participation of the police, the military, elected officials, representatives of local, state and federal government. on the one hand, it represents acceptance and inclusion. and it's a far cry from the situation 50 years ago. on the other hand, have those levels of government, local, state and federal, fully acknowledged the longstanding acts of harassment, abuse and

violence committed in the name of local, state and federal governments? are they fully addressing today's cutting-edge issues? right? and so there's that double-edged aspect of the participation of local, state and federal officials, including representatives of the national park service. are they doing everything that they could be to make up for past wrongs and to address ongoing struggles? >> in a half a minute, the cover of your book represents what in your mind? why did you select it? >> it's a photograph from the week of the stonewall riots by fred mcdara, and it's actually a staged photograph. as i mentioned earlier, we really only have one image of the confrontation between protesters and the police, and we don't even have the original. most versions that people will see, it's a grainy image of a newspaper photograph.

but the fred mcdara photographs were staged, mostly taken on the evening of june 28th, so the second night of rioting. these were a group of participants who mcdara gathered, staged on a staircase on this very street, and they represent i think the diversity of the participation. so we see people who at least look to us to be african-american, puerto rico ap, we see transpeople, we see the youthful energy of the participants. we see chasm camping, we see same-sex affection and intimacy in the photographs. so in some respects at least it captures some of what was going on during the week of the rioting. >> author, historian and history proffer at san francisco state university, marc stein who is joining us from christopher street in