have a future in front of them is absolutely essential in my opinion. >> john tinker joining us from des moines. thank you for being with us. ' enjoy american history tv now and every weekend on c-span 3. having to lie i feel, is the saddest and ugliest part of being homosexual. when you first have you're first battle

of experience and you can't go to your brother or sister and say that i am hurting. at first, i was very guilty. then i realized that all the things that are taught you by not only society but psychiatrists are to fit you in a mold, i rejected the mold, when i rejected the mold i was happier. >> these must be independent organizations all across the country. there are somewhere between 60 and 65 independent groups, there might be more now, but he keeps growing overnight. this is a unified effort on the part of something 20th 30 organizations on the east coast. it's primarily an approach and tactics. some groups emphasize militant tactics, other groups emphasize and more educational approach,

going out into areas, middle america people they don't know much about say homosexuality. most groups provide some form of social service for people in need. but this is a minor part of the effort, a major part of the effort today is to change the social institutions that make life difficult for us. about >> a portion of a film documentary. this is what the stonewall in looks like today. a look at the demonstrations that took place in july 1969. joining us from greenwich village, new york, mark stein,

the editor of the stonewall riots, a documentary history. thank you for joining us on c-span. >> thank you very much for having me. >> take us back 50 years ago this week. what happened? >> the police in that period routinely raided gay bars. there was a raid on the stonewall inn a night earlier. on june 7, the police began a raid. some of the patrons were allowed to exit the bar and some were detained. it was very common for police to detain bar owners, are managers, bartenders, dachshund bar bar managers, bartenders, people of color, people who fought back

or talked back. some people were detained inside the bar. by this time, it was the early morning hours of june 28. patrons began gathering on the streets outside. as the police tried to bring those they detained into police wagons, the crowd began to erupt. over the next three nights there were demonstrations. at one point police were trapped inside the bar until reinforcements arrived, the rightriot control police were called. the rioting proceeded over several days. >> why this location? why this set of

circumstances? >> it is a complicated question. the stonewall inn was mafia owned and managed. there was a system of payoffs whereby the bar managers paid off the police to limit although never completely restrict police raids on the bars. the police would raid the bars even if there were these payoff systems in place. the payoffs system might have broken down. there was a mayoral election that was going on. that was often a time when police would raid bars as part of a crackdown on vice. the city administration would appear to be promoting law and order. there were allegations of violations of the great

licensing laws, disorderly conduct, lack mailing, other allegations about the stonewall in. that is stonewall inn. why june 1969? in global terms, 1968 was a major year that witnessed rebellions and revolutions around the world as well as police reaction, state reaction, and violent state repression. in some way we can see the stonewall riots of 1969 as an outgrowth of worldwide riots. there were local issues as well. the mayoral election. weeks before the riots, mayor john lindsay had lost the republican primary. lindsay was known to be a friend to the gay

community. he ended up winning the election in 1969, but he did so on a third-party ticket. in late june, nobody knew he would end up winning. in 1969, there were a number of police killings of gay people around the country. that contributed to the rage and anger that lgbt people felt that night and the days and weeks surrounding the stonewall riots. >> our guest is mark stien. he is the author of the stonewall riots, a documentary history. we have aligned set aside for the lgbtq community. that line is (202) 748-8002. for just a moment, described physically where you

are situated. >> directly behind me is the new stonewall national monument, which was created during the obama administration. it is a small part, triangular park. behind the park is the stonewall inn. it is a two-story building. this is greenwich village in new york city. >> what do the money misrepresent? the monuments represent? >> when obama mentioned stonewall alongside seneca falls in his address, it signifies that lgbt activism is part of the broader aspirational struggles for social justice in the u.s. that

was a symbolic statement on the part of obama as president of the u.s. as the first african-american president. establishing this monument here is another way of signaling the road that has been traveled over not just the last 50 years but even longer to achieve lgbt a quality, still unfinished equality, still unfinished process. this is an action on part of the federal government, which for many decades was quite regressive to lgbt people. there is kind of a paradox that the federal government is recognizing this space and yet continues to adopt policies currently. the best example might be the ban on transgender military

members. there are ongoing struggles and problems. you mentioned the speech by president obama, his second inaugural speech, jerry 21st 2013 from in front the u.s. capital here's what he said. for >> we, the people, declared today that the most evident of truths, that all of us are created equal. is the star the guides is still. just as it guided our forebears through cynical falls, and selma, and stonewall, just as it guided all those men and women some and on some, we left footprints across this great wall, to hear preacher say that we do not walk alone. to hear king proclaimed that our individual freedom is inextricably bound

to the freedom of every soul on earth. >> that was former president barack obama in 2013. one more point marks about your location. the stonewall in itself is, i guess the best way to say it, a rather cozy bar. it's not very big is? it >> it's not very big in the large scheme of things. actually it was known in 1969 as one of the larger gay bars in new york city and in greenwich village. it featured dancing, it featured go go boys, and so, actually compared to some real holes in the wall. the stonewall and was relatively spacious. >> why are these locations so important at that time to the game lesbian community? >> in 1969, same sex sex was basically illegal in 49 out of 50 american states. there were

also laws, federal, state, and local laws, that regulated lgbt speech, that regulated lgbt participation and many aspects of public life. difficult to get government jobs at the local, state, and federal levels in 1969. barr's though, where a congregation place. a place where lgbt people could come together so, enjoy time together, and in that sense, some people argue that the bar was for the lgbt community, what the church was for the african american community, or what the factory was for the labor movement. a central space for gathering, becoming active, developing ideas about social justice and equality. >> in order to get a sense of how the media covered the gay and lesbian community back in the 1960s. i want to share with you and your audience a portion of a now controversial cbs news

documentary, one in which dan rather recently apologized. mark wallace in 1967, the title of the program was called the homosexuals. >> most americans the near notion of homosexuality. a survey shows two out of three americans look at homosexuals with discuss, discomfort, or fear. one out of ten, says hatred. a vast majority believe that homosexuality is an illness, only 10% say it is not a crime and yet, here's the paradox. majority of americans prefer legal punishment, even between consulting adults. the homosexual, bitterly aware of his rejection, now response by going underground. they frequent their own clubs and bars and coffee houses where they can act out in the fashion that they want to. where they can escape the disapproving eye of the society did they call straight. >> that from cbs news and mark stein, i know you're familiar

with this program as you hear that, and see that, your reaction? >> well, the media was changing in the second half of the 1960s as was the lgbt movement. so, i think that program was quite soundly criticized by the pre-stonewall lgbt movement. there were other media stories that were more accepted and more open to change. one example would be the new york times magazine published a major story called sub rights in the homosexual in 1967. the wall street journal in 1968 published a feature story on the gay rights movement. more generally, the lgbtq movement had success in the second half of the sixties, and that was certainly true in new york city. so, under the lindsey administration, there was decline in sexual entrapment practices on the part of police. a decline on arrests and sexual solicitation, some

success in court decisions that allowed gay bars a little bit more freedom to exist. and to prosper and thrive. things were changing in the second half of the 1960s. when we turn to the civil rights themselves, the media reports were interesting. conflicting, and ever changing, so on the first week, the new york times, new york post, new york daily news, did all cover the stonewall riots, but it was buried news. it was not prominent front page news. the village voice did major stories on the stonewall riots and had reporters on the scene, even trapped inside the bar during the riots. those were much more significant stories, but it was really the alternative press, and the lgbt press, that covered the riots more sympathetically, more comprehensively. those are the stories that historians have relied on along with oral histories, police reports and photographs for rounding out

the picture of what happened that week. >> one of, those the documentary of louis van sense, that were featuring on c-span 3 has tree tv. our guest is mark stein, he's joining us from greenwich village new york, he's also the author of rethinking the gay and lesbian movement, and city of sisterly and brotherly love as we talk about stonewall the riots 50 years ago, a turning point for the lgbtq community. sam is on the phone from flint michigan good morning. >> hey good morning to both of you gentlemen to all the viewers. this will be pretty brief. just a little context. i am a navy veteran, a gay navy veteran. i grew up in a very much catholic cast hold. this issue is portrayed many different ways by many different folks and corners of society. but, what it really is, it's about love. it is not

about sex so much. it is about love, and good luck to anybody who is determined to fight love. because you are really fighting quite a force. right there. coming from a religious background, the last thing i'll mention is, lgbtq issues are often, buy the religious right, mentioned in the same breath and abortion, culture of death, and things of this nature. there is so much in the bible that is taken way out of context, it's adhere to selectively. it's about love period. have a wonderful weekend. >> tom have you personally felt discrimination is an openly gay american?

>> well, i'm glad you asked that. i value other viewers time as well, as you two gentlemen. i served 20 years in the navy. retired. i guess about 50%, i'm sorry my voice is kind of croquet this morning, about 54% of it was under so called, don't ask don't tell. the other 50%, my first ten years in the military, was under the republican preferred do ask. we'll ask undo tell, that was particularly repressive and draconian. i could've been kicked out of the military extremely easily. i

think bill clinton gets a lot of grief for don't ask don't tell. but it was actually a huge step forward from what was in place before that. the last half of my sentence here will be repression, growing in a religious household, you better believe it. thanks for asking. >> tom thank you. mark stone what are you hearing in his story? >> i think it's interesting and seeing the movement focused on issues of love. the pre-stonewall movement, the home of file movement, follow was chosen as the key term because it emphasize love over sex. >> the movement the began after stonewall, and the months before the riots. i would say placed equal emphasis on loved,

intimacy, and sex. sex is very central on the early gay liberalization this. they want to their sexual identities to be, recognized, affirmed, and validated. for a few years, sexual issues were quite central to the movement after the stonewall riots. >> post stonewall riots in 1969, here are some of the highlights for the gay, lesbian, and transgender communities. in 1973 the american psychiatric association, declares homosexuality no longer a mental illness. in 1982 in the first years of the region administration, the cdc uses the term aides for the first time. in 1996, president clinton signs the defense of marriage act. in 2011 president obama revoking don't ask don't tell. and 2015, in a five to four ruling, legalizing same sex marriage. the pentagon one

year later, and the ban on transgender people serving openly in the military. in 2019, president trump rescinding that band involving transgender service. >> let's get to tanya who's on the phone from new york city. good morning. >> good morning. >> i'm tanya walker, from new york city, on transgender,. i came out the military in new york in 1986 and i met marshy pete johnson down by the village and the piers. i know the gay community did not like the drag queens. she was at the stonewall riots that night who was actually finding with the cops. i noticed that most of the videos and photos that we have seen. am i talking?

>> yes you're on the air. >> okay. >> did you have another question or comment? >> yes. i wonder why he doesn't mention the black drag queens in from the barr, fighting that night, like march shifty johnson, sylvia rivera. >> thank you for the call mark stein. >> the caller is absolutely right, as far as we can determine, some of the leading roles in the riots were played by african americans, puerto ricans, trans people, street queens, drag queens. it's quite uncertain whether they represented a majority of the people in the riots, but for many accounts, they placed them at the key moments leading the rights. displaying real courage, can be courage we might say. some individuals who are often

credited with instigating the riots, leading the riots, sylvia rivera, maher shifty johnson, there are still conflicting accounts of if they were there, whether they were there. marcia johnson, in many accounts, explain that she was not there in the riots started but got there sometime later. she played an important role that night, other people of color certainly did, trans people did, but she may not have been there when the riots started. >> hi good morning. thanks for c-span. i was 20 years old. i grew up in long island, i was hitched down and going to the barr's, julius was the other bar. all mafia run. strange to me, being sort of a macho kind of college student, wearing

square, weightlifter, you know young. but the stonewall wasn't amazing place. i would go in early in the evening, before we went down towards the river, towards the new bar danny's, which i hadn't heard mentioned. i went in about 10:00 of the evening into the stonewall. it seemed all right, normal, early in the evening. then i walked down to danny's. when i came back, maybe two hours later, it was. and i haven't heard this in the movie or commentary. i would say the queens were the bravest, they were lighting garbage. i saw this. they were lighting garbage pales on fire

from the outside and throwing them in through the big window at the police. the police were inside at that point who else i don't know. i remember standing on the bumpers of two cabs that were right there, in front of it. this is the first night. i think i was there for the second night. it's hard to get in the island. so that's what i'll never forget. the police were sort of trapped inside, at the point that i got back there. they were lighting garbage cans and throwing them in the window. that's all i want to say, it's really true. it got a little better after that, a bit, but it took here is really. i guess to get to where we are. years and years, decades and decades. i am 70 now. >> dave, thanks for weighing in

and sharing your own recollections from 50 years ago. this week. mark stein your reaction. >> yes well my book reprints 30 media reports another accounts of the stonewall riots from 1969. it's quite interesting to see it's the first accounts provided by the new york times, daily news, new york post, referred to the rioters as homosexuals, or young homosexuals. but within a week, the voice, the lgbt press, were referring to the leading role played, at the time we referred to as dragons, trans vest-ites, or street queens. the most extensive coverage of that was in the local gay news letter. interesting lee, the trans periodicals of the day, two of which were the ericsson educational foundation, did not cover the riots. did not

emphasize the role of the street queens and the riots. the issue of translation 50 years later. today we tend to police the boundaries between gay and trans. but in 1969, many people like marcia pete johnson, sylvia rivera, were comfortable referring to themselves as both gay and trans vests tights. they did not see those things as necessarily an opposition or mutually exclusive. to our viewers just tuning in >> we are looking back 50 years ago at the stonewall riots, a turning point for the gain lesbian community. our guest from greenwich village new york as mark stein, he's the author of a new book that looks back at what happened 50 years ago. we have been talking about new york city police officers, the police commissioner james o'neil on twitter, with this apology for the way police

officers handled the situation 50 years ago. >> i think it would be irresponsible for me as we go through world pride month not to speak of the events of the stonewall inn in june of 1969. i'm certainly not going to stand here and pretend to be an expert of what happened at stonewall. i do know that what happened should not have happened. the actions taken by the nypd were wrong, plain and simple. the actions and the laws were discriminatory and oppressive and for that i apologize. to the lgbtq community, this would never happen in nypd 2019. >> mark stein, reaction to that apology from the new york city police commissioner. >> in general terms, i think the apology is a good first step. but it is just a first

step. i'd like to see similar apologies by the police commissioners of the many cities where lgbt people were killed in 1969 by the police. that would include los angeles, berkeley california, oakland california. those will be steps alongside the actions of the new york city police commissioner. but in addition, are we seeing leadership from city mayors, state governors, all the way to the federal government? we still see have only a few states where lgbtq history education is mandated in schools. where is the funding for the lgbt history educate, lgbt history museums? there is an effort underway right now in new york city, there is a long-standing lgbt history museum in san

francisco. we could see more of those projects that funded by city, state, and local governments. into the history of lgbt history harassment. those would be steps that would build on what is really just a symbolic apology at this point. >> good morning richard from new jersey. >> good morning. i want to discuss the beginning, of my, arm, coming out and going into new york. i used to go to the gay pride parade. but only went at night because i did not want to go near tv cameras. my very best friend who was a schoolteacher said that he could not go to the gay pride parade until the evening time because he was afraid that he would definitely lose his job as a schoolteacher. he was a spanish and italian teacher in

new jersey. he action absolutely love his job as a foreign language teacher. i do remember enjoying halloween on christopher street. and then i think a big change was during the gay man's health crisis. i was with a friend, tony, and a store front when they first started the game man's health crisis. they were setting the telephone lines and things like that. these men, that were much older than me, i was probably 21 or 22. tony said, because everybody was putting their names down on a piece of paper. tony leaned over to them and said, you know he's extremely young, he's putrefied his name will be on anything. and that store front with the gay man's health crisis, i did not put my name on that piece of paper because the first thing i thought, was the nazi brain and the gay concentration camps and

that i would be put in a camp and possibly killed for being gay. >> it's located where the stonewall and is situated, as you hear historic what is your reaction? >> i think one of the things that is interesting is to look back at the early pride marches and protests and parades. the first of which took place in the summer of 1970 to commemorate the first anniversary of the stonewall riots. there had actually been earlier annual commemorations in philadelphia, in front of independence hall, on july 4th. those began in 1965 and were held for five consecutive years. but the decision was made by movement activists in the fall of 1969, to switch the annual recognition of the lgbt struggle from philadelphia and independence hall, to stonewall

and new york city. that became what we know now today is the gay pride parade, that of course spread around the united states in the world. those early pride marches and parades in 1970, 71, 72, 73, were quite it was quite brave to participate. it was uncertain that there would be violence from people and harassers who might come in and confront the participants. it was unclear whether the police would grant permits and in fact, in los angeles, in 1970, it was only shortly before what was called christopher street west, that the parade organizers received official police permits to conduct the march, they only did so under a judges order. the first recognitions and commemorations of the stone wall rebellion required a lot of courage on the part of the organizers and participants.

but many of us believe is that's really when the stonewall riots acquire the significance that they have today. there had been other lgbt protests and demonstrations before stonewall. but, stonewall became central to the way that we narrate lgbt history really because, of the annual commemorations every summer that have non gone on for 49 years. >> i want to put one point in perspective, walter jenkins, where the time was one of the closest aides to president lyndon johnson. worked with him for 25 years when he was in the senate, vice president, and then president. he was married, the father of six children. this is a photo walter jenkins, was forced out of the white house after he had a sexual liaison with another man at the ymca here in washington d.c.. he was charged with a crime, on morals charges, i mentioned that in 1964 to where we are today with the mayor of south

indiana, openly gay. out of the top candidates of the democratic nomination. when you look at the arc of history, what does that tell you? >> openly lgbt candidates began running for office in the united states before stonewall. they weren't generally successful. there began to be successes in the early 1970s. the first was actually in an arbor michigan, where city council members became came out as gay and lesbian, then ran and won election. there was a state senator elected in massachusetts-y in the late 1970s for the board of supervisors in san francisco. we began to see successes and running for congress, then shortly thereafter, a few governors by now. there is still have been, has been a kind of limit to that kind of

success in electoral and the point of office. we have yet to have an open lgbt cabinet member, and open lgbt vice president for president. do you >> do you think the country would elect an openly gay man in 2020? >> it's an interesting question. i think beauty church is showing that it is imaginable. it is possible. i would also remind everyone that we have yet to have a woman president of the united states. there are many groups in american society that yet to be representative at the highest levels of government. i think it's certainly possible and maybe even likely that in our lifetime, there will be and openly lgbt member of the supreme court. vice president or president. >> according to the advocate, there are ten openly gay or lesbian members of the house or

senate. we will show you that list as we hear from dan in ontario california. good morning. >> hello, it's ontario canada. i was wondering, here in canada, it's basically become a non issue. i notice in the united states there's a lot of attention paid to even the term knowledge you that is used. like lgbtq. it's just unfamiliar here and i'm sort of wondering if i could just get your opinion on the difference between how it's dealt with and then the language that is used, how it's evolved as well. >> i actually lived in canada, in toronto for 16 years. i know a little bit of what you're talking about with respect to canada. up to stonewall moment, it was at that moment that a number of countries began to

partially decriminalize same-sex sex acts. that was the case just before the stonewall. it was partial the criminalization canada, western germany. in canada recently, a formal government apology for the criminalization of lgbt people and the unfinished nature of those reforms that occurred in the late 1960s and early 1970s. i understand that there's been action even this month on removing from the canadian criminal code some of the other criminal statutes that have been used to target lgbt people. it's important to remember that it's not just saw to me that was criminalized, lgbt people were harassed and abused under crimes like disorderly conduct, lewd

conduct, obscenity law, in canada body house legislation and a variety of other criminal statutes. >> you are doing a great job, i know the trucks behind you can sometimes drawn out the noise. we should point out that you are at the park that is now part of the national parks service and christopher street directly across from the stonewall in. it's of course open to the public. our guest is mark stein, he's a graduate of west flynn university, doctorate from pennsylvania university. >> good morning to everyone at c-span and good morning to professor stein. i'm a supporter of suspended have been watching you for years. i just want to say, a quick story. i knew about stonewall and how much of a remarkable movement it started, the catalyst for the lgbtq movement. i was alone

by myself one day in manhattan, i had my mind on 1 million different things, and i happened to come across by pure accident the stonewall memorial park,. it's a very good feeling to know that i was standing, inadvertently, in the middle of a catalyst for such a remarkable social justice movement. i was really taken back. in brief, i want to thank c-span and everyone at c-span and professors time for shooting such a positive and transformative light on the subject. how remarkable this movement has been. thank you all again for your time, i appreciate it. >> tom thank you for the call. mark stone, let me take his point and move it one step further as an educator. how do you teach stonewall? how should teachers educate this generation in terms of exactly what happened and it's significance 50 years later? >> i think many of us have been

trying to improve lgbt history education in colleges, universities and high schools for some years. it's really important i think to be integrated it to be integrated and our general narratives of american history. it's one thing for there to be history for to be courses on lgbt history and university, but it's a totally different thing when the history of the stonewall riots get incorporated into the general america history courses. many of us are working hard on that. i think many of us try to teach that stonewall followed 20 years of political organizing by lgbt people. there was a pre-stonewall movement, many of us try to teach the much broader history of sexual and gender difference and variety in american history. so stretching that back centuries. and then of course, it's important to follow the story after the stonewall riots. how

did the gay liberation movement develop in the 1970s? a lesbian feminist movement? the transgender liberation movement? how did people of color organize autonomous movements? growing particularly strong in the late 1970s. how did all of that change in the 19 eighties? with the aids crisis. what were the changes and more recent decades with legalization, but also the complications of what it means to be recognized by local, state, and federal governments, and the possibilities that liberation might be limited by key compromised, might be unfinished in a variety of ways. i think that's what a lot of us try to teach when we emphasize lgbt history. >> of course, you have spent probably more time than most historians looking back at the events of stonewall. what has surprised you the most?

>> well, i think that this 50 year commemoration. i think many of us anticipated that there would be an explosion of public interest. but i think even as i was working on my new book, i underestimated the extent of the public interest. that's gratifying, it's an opportunity for us to teach about stonewall specifically, but also teach about broader lgbt history and broader history of social justice movements. also to connect the past to the president. i think that's an important aspect. i guess it's also frustrating. we still see many of the myth circulating through stonewall. the claim that the stonewall riots started the lgbt movement when we knew there was a previous movement. we see a lot of photographs circulating on the internet the report to be from the stonewall riots that are not from the riots. we

actually have limited photographic evidence, and really only one image that published in the new york daily news that captured the confrontation between the police and the rioters. the internet creates the problem, it of course creates many opportunities, but it creates the problems of a problematic representation. then he can go viral and spread and then we end up with a lot of minutes formation and misinterpretation. >> our next caller is from ithaca new york, pastor welcome back to the conversation good morning. >> can you hear me. >> we can now. go had with a question or comment. >> yes. thank you first of all for everyone behind the scenes. who put us all on every day. pastor vincent. stonewall,

needs not only to be a historical site in needs to be an insight into our history. mister stein i think would concur that not only the commemoration of these events. i did not come out until i left the seminary and 83. then i went into peace corps, i and the peace corps i was wrongly fired. one of the things they fired me for was being gay and senegal. also, iran i passed my own human rights ministry, my last paper catholic university was saying gendered marriages.

what we do not realize, is that what we need is a vehicle of veracity with a capacity to uphold those self evident truths. and so what we would like, i would think we need, with all the top and everything is good about the reparations, about voting rights, about equal access. i got fired by trinity church standing up for a south african trans gendered woman for using the woman's bathroom. we need human rights courts. >> past i'm going to stop it and give our guest a chance to respond. thanks for sharing your story. mark stein? >> one of the things the caller emphasized was religion and the oppressive role played by right religion and the potentially liberating role played by religion. before the stonewall riots, religious retailers were important allies of the lgbt movement along with the

american civil liberties union, which was perhaps the most important ally to the pre-stonewall movement. in san francisco, there was an influential council on, which featured ministers who allied with the lgbt activists of that day. they made important, groundbreaking efforts in california. those efforts continued after stonewall. so i think there is a tendency now to think of the religious community as hostile to, or at odds with the lgbt aspirations. but in fact, religious communities are divided. we've had for several decades, religious denominations who are at the forefront of fighting for lgbt inclusion and rights, and others on the forefront and opposing lgbt lid operation. and among the denominations that are hostile, their efforts within the catholic church and

warm and church to promote lgbt acceptance and rights. religious communities in the united states and elsewhere have been an important sight of struggle along with other sites of struggle we think about. our schools, the media, popular culture, law and politics. >> 50 years after the riots, which moved into early july. what is the rainbow flag, which is behind you, represent to you? as a historian? >> the rainbow flag emerged as one of several symbols and icons of the lgbt movement. the many colors was meant to celebrate the diversity of the lgbt movement. and community. so to emphasize, it's not an all white community, it's not an all middle class community, it's not all men, but rather it encompasses people from all backgrounds, all social groups, in american society, and the global community. there have

been calls to expand the colors on the rainbow flag to even further emphasize the diversity of lgbtq communities, movements, activism. >> tony in denver good morning. welcome to the program. >> thank you, mister stein. brilliant presentation on stonewall. i only had a cursory understanding before the show today, and i find this highly informative. i have two questions. one, how large is the lgbt to community. how large is the demographic? i'm sure the statistics are hard to get out because, they are closeted people. what i would like to know that. and second, as a historian, are you concerned. i'm concerned as a white male about injustice for anybody who is not white over the last couple of years. i'm wondering as a historian, if you have a view. are we going

backwards as a society. not just for lgbtq but in general in terms of social justice movements. answers to those questions would be helpful thank you. >> tony thanks for the call. mr. stein? >> on the first question, quantification is very difficult. we have lots of survey stretching all the way back to the kids he studies in the 1940s and 50s. if the question is asking narrowly, we get reports to one, to three, to five, to 10% of the population. but if the question is asked broadly, we get larger numbers. so when we think of queer, that term has been invoked and used to represent much broader array of people. if it represented anybody who has had a moment of same sex

desire transgressed gender and their life, we get much larger percentages. we might even say 100 percent of the population is potentially queer. but not everybody lives that life and claims that identity. it depends how we ask the question and define each of those letters of the alphabet. with respect to the current moment, and whether or not we are making progress i'm taking a step back. i think in many respects, these things happen in cycles. there were important reforms during the obama administration. and as we've seen in many areas a social justice, retrenchment and reaction during the trump administration. there has of course been limits to that because we have three branches of the federal government. we have state and local governments. some of which are making important strides. so it's complicated. sometimes we have two steps forward one step back. sometimes we have one

steps forward two steps back. it depends on the question were asking. so in certain aspects of law, there has been progress. and other aspects, there has been a retrenchment. if we go back to your first question, we each have to claim strict identities. and avoid dealing with the complexities of gender fluidity. maybe we are not at such a great moment right now, because there is obviously more and more insistence, that people claim strict identities and do not embrace possible transformation, possible fluidity of gender and sexuality across their own life courses and across history. >> this headline from the new york daily news, and reads as follows. home oh nest raided, queen bees are stinging mad. mark stein what do you think of

that headline? >> it was characteristic of some of the mainstream press coverage of the stonewall riots. because my book offers basically 30 accounts of the stonewall riots from that summer. we get to compare how mainstream newspapers and magazines covered the riots to alternative papers like the village voice, in new york the east village other, piece west periodicals like the berkeley barbed and tribe. then we get to see lgbt press coverage. so you would not have seen a headline like that and lgbt newspapers, magazines, and newsletters of the day. this was a way for mainstream newspapers to get readers, to get interests. it can be complicated to use those as sources but they are important sources and help us understand how people learned about stonewall. the national

magazines of the day, time a news week, did not cover stonewall until the fall. until october. and so it took several months before at least the magazines of the united states, to see stonewall as something significant and worthy of coverage. >> you spoke earlier about the importance of the bars and taverns for the gain lesbian community. nancy is a professor, and from the c-span library, looking back at the role they played in the lgbtq community. >> gays and lesbian who came of age in the forties, fifties, and sixties speak over and over again of how they risked their reputations, their marriages, their families, their livelihoods, by going to gay bars. because they gave bars saved their lives. they kept them from despairing, they were the only ones. kept them from

believing that society was right, but they were sick and criminal. and be better off dead. in the bars and nightclubs they found hookups and one night stands. they also found partners and lovers and friends and people who accepted them as they work. they did not have to carry out the exhausting work of pretending to be straight. they could be themselves. and being true to yourself is very precious. it's worth a lot of risk. lesbians during this period suffered double discrimination, even most game men saw women as inferior. in the days before widespread feminism, the lesbian bar was the truly where place where women were not pressure to cater to men. a lesbian in the 1940s said we can throw off our gurgles, our dresses, our high heels. that

was the uniform required of virtually all women. lesbian could wear pants and be free from straight men's unwanted sexual attention. >> that's from nancy younger. i want to move beyond the riots and ask you what happened next after the stonewall in demonstrations? >> well initially, the existing gay rights organization in new york city tried to harness the energies unleashed by the riots. there were follow-up protests and demonstrations in greenwich village and actually in queens new york where a public park had been a sight of harassment by vigilantes. very quickly it became clear that the older home of file movement organizations were not going to be the main vehicles for the future, there emerged new

organizations. the first major one in new york city was called the gay liberation front, and the queens liberation front all of little later. groups like third world gay revolution representing people of color. then the gay activists alliance in new york. it was a little less radical than the gay liberation front. the gay liberation front and other organizations that i mentioned were committed to alliances with the black panthers, the anti war movement. they participated in marches and demonstrations of those other groups. they were calling for radical restructuring of american society. social restructuring, political restructuring. the alliance

focus more exclusively on gay rights and that set the trend of what followed for the next several years. rain flew and chill, very powerful, very active organization in new york city and similar organizations around the country. >> let me tell you ask about two recent moments. challenging the defensive magic marriage act. why was her case so significant? >> over time the issues and priorities of the lgbtq movement changed. there were mainstream aspects of the lgbt movement that began prioritizing inclusion in the military, in marriage, and family life, and religion. that was contested within the lgbt movement. many people thought that the radical revolutionaries of the gay liberation movement were anti war, they did not want inclusion in the military. they

were opposed to monogamy and conventional family life. so there is that tension. nevertheless, for many people, the goal of the lgbt movement was brought acceptance, equality of all aspects of american life, he winds are in the struggle for same sex marriage was an aspect of the lgbt movement. her role, were absolutely central in establishing, for achieving this major long-standing goal of the lgbt movement. which was for those who want to marry, that they had the legal right to do so. >> in 2016, during one of the gay pride marches. rangers, those from the national park service, join in the movement. what does that tell you about authorities in 1969 and where we are today?

>> again, i think today, there are conflicting feelings about the participation of the police, the military, elected officials, representatives of local state government. on the one hand it represents acceptance inclusion, and it is a far cry of the situation 50 years ago. on the other hand, those levels of government fully acknowledge the long-standing acts of harassment, abuse, and violence committed in the name of the local, state, and federal governments. are they fully addressing today's cutting edge issues? there is that double edged aspect of participation, of local, state, and federal officials. including, representatives of the national park service. are they doing everything that they could be to make up for past wrongs and

to address ongoing struggles. in a >> in a half a minute, the cover of your book represents what in your mind? why did you select? it >> it's a photograph from the week of the stonewall riots by fred make daryl. it's actually a staged photograph, we only have one image of the confrontation and we don't even have the original. most versions that people will see is a grainy image of a newspaper photograph. the fred midair photograph were stage. mostly taken the evening of june 28th the second night of riding. these were a group of participants the participants. we see puerto rican, we see

trans people, you will energy of the participants. we see camping, we see same-sex affection and intimacy in the fred mcdarrah photographs. so we see some of what was going on during the week of the rioting. >> author and professor at san francisco university, marc stein, who is joining us from christopher street in greenwich village, new york, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you so much for having me. >> up next, the documentary go to c-span store-bought or to see what's new for american history tv. check out all of the c-span products. each week, american artifacts, takes vrs