our campaign 2020 live coverage continues thursday at 7:00 p.m. eastern on c-span 2 with president donald trump in toledo, ohio, at a keep america great rally. and on sunday on c-span, senator michael bennet is in bedford, new hampshire. watch live on c-span and c-span 2 or listen on the go with the free c-span radio app. it's day three of our annual authorities week here on washington journal. we have been featuring authors from across the political spectrum on key public policy issues of the day and joining us today to talk about his book "christ in crisis, why we need to reclaim jesus" is the

reverend jim wallace. >> blessed to be here. >> i want to get to the book but i want to start with the christianity today editorial calling for president trump's removal from office. your reaction, you wrote on sojourners in your editorial this might be a watershed moment for 2020. why? >> you know, i came back from the 27 city book tour right in the middle of advent. which in our tradition is a season of waiting and yearning and longing for christ. that's what advent means so waiting for christ is what i was thinking coming home and then an editorial appears from christianity today which is a credible magazine. and the editor who i know says that there are moral issues at stake now in the selection. not just political. but the deeper and the morality

of president trump is what ehe's raising and so to me, it was the coming of what this -- my book was all about, what did jesus say? what did he mean? did he mean it. so here's this christianity today saying these trade-offs, the transactional deals we like what donald trump was doing on some issues, therefore, we'll ignore all of the rest and he says this is a gross immorality of character we are seeing here. and he has -- he can no longer tolerate that. this was a powerful statement of morality in the middle of politics. >> do you think it will have -- >> it already is. it's a crack in the wall for president trump. when the media says evangelical they mean white evangelical because black and hispanic and

asian american evangelicals have not been supportive of donald trump so white evangelicals have in a great majority. yet, that's changing. so the crack i would say was already there. on the road i saw this. i was in evangelical colleges and churches and megachurches and particularly white evangelical women have been really moving away from donald trump. white evangelical young people because of climate, because of those issues have moved away. so now we have this crack, it is a watershed moment, a crack in the wall and then white evangelical support is asking the deeper questions. not just political ones but moral ones. and jesus questions. we talked about jesus everywhere. even at the evangelical schools, i have said wouldn't it be amazing if in this crisis white evangelicals came back to jesus. >> by the way, we have a line

for evangelical voters. 202-748-8000 is that number. all others can call in at 220-748-8001 as we have this conversation with the reverend wallace. as we talk about evangelical voters can you just define the term? evangelical, where does that term come from? >> great question on christmas eve. it comes from jesus first sermon -- his first mission statement at nazareth when he's announcing his mission he says -- he's quoting isaiah the spirit of the lord is upon me because it's anointed me to bring good news to the poor. now the word in there is eadvantageal. we get evangelical from there. i call it his nazareth manifesto, the spirit of the

lord is upon me. i bring good news to the poor. if your gospel whatever it does to your life if it isn't good news to the poor it isn't the gospel of jesus. so in this season we think of -- i think of mary's -- put down the mighty from the throne. mary, the mother of jesus. fill the hungry with good things and sent the rich, empty away. that's her prayer. so evangelicals means good news to poor. so what people are saying in this whole reaction, this conversation you're taking about is why do we ignore what the president has said and done about immigrants and minorities and the racialized policies and the language and words and so how we treat the poorest, the most vulnerable is in fact the test of the gospel some where evangelical comes from is a

powerful thing. yet, our evangelicals to be honest known in america for being good news to the poor, immigrants, hungry, homeless and we're not. so that's a gospel issue for me. not just a political one. >> coming back to that reaction to that editorial, some of the concerns that editorial is ignoring the president's accomplishments. franklin graham in his facebook post this is what he writes about the magazine that his father helped found. this is what he said the list of accomplishments of president trump is long but for me as a christian the fact he's the most pro-life president in history is important. and christianity today wants us to ignore that to say it doesn't count. the president has been a staunch defender of religious freedom and christianity today wants us to ignore that and also he's appointed conservative judges in

record numbers and they want us to ignore that. christianity today feels he should be removed from office that the false accusations that the president denies. what would you say about that? >> franklin is wrong. we have had the transactional politics. we call it the faustian bargain that people like franklin graham and with president trump give us the things we'll ignore all the rest. he uses the word ignore. well, he's been ignoring, franklin graham, the president's treatment of immigrants at the border. the president using race divisively in all of his politics. so i understand what mark gal ya is saying, yes, there are policies that the president has done that we support that mark supports. he didn't ignore those things, yes, i support many of these

policies but i can no longer ignore using franklin's word. ignore the gross immorality that we see and that graham ignores. there are women -- evangelical women who are not supporting donald trump anymore and when people say why are you ignoring life, prolife and they say, well, we care about life at the border as well as life in the womb. so a consistent ethic of life is necessary to care for all of life. all of life. not just on the issue of abortion. >> you say that there's a crack here, there's an opening here. why aren't we hearing more from democratic candidates on the campaign trail about faith, about some of these issues you bring up? at the democratic debate last week, according to the transcript, god came up only once and it was joe biden saying god bless you all as he ended

his final statement to the audience. >> that's a great question. when you think about the democratic party's core base, they would say it's african american women. who are the most religious population in the country? so why are democrats reluctant to talk about faith? it makes no sense at all. and so republicans can say that they own religion in the election season or own god. so i have done now several podcasts with democratic candidates asking them tell us about your faith and values. i have done cory booker, castro, buttigieg and senator warren is coming on. biden is coming on. podcasts for democrats, do what you're saying and talk about their faith. it's foolish to be reluctant to talk about your faith. >> do you think it doesn't poll well in the democratic primary?

>> i think -- i talked to a number of democrats who feel like their party in recent times has real i ignored the issue of faith so many other christians say why are they ignoring my faith? and the good news, booker doesn't ignore the faith and pete buttigieg he takes about god even when he isn't asked a religious question. like climate change. and joe biden in his deep losses in his life it's made him more deeply catholic and elizabeth warren has her bible underlined around matthew 25 as jesus says what you have done to the least of me you have done to me. they're as democrats reluctant

to speak it and the reason why is they would say -- many would say but we believe in the separation of church and state. and i agree but here's the key thing. the separation of church and state which i agree with does not mean the segregation of moral values from public life. the democrats need to get over that and not impose their religion like people like franklin graham tend to want to do. impose their faith on the country. no, we need to be pluralistic, respect every faith. religious liberty is an important value. not just our own. i was driven here by a muslim uber driver. this old muslim man having his prayers, a wonderful man. are we as christians committed to his religious liberty too or our open? >> that comes to your book.

"christ in crisis." why is christ in crisis and what does your book have to do with nonchristians? >> i sat here several months ago now and went all across the country so my answer to your question is having been to all of the these 27 cities and here's the good news. jesus has somehow survived all of us christians. there's a hunger out there to talk about jesus among people of different faiths or no faith at all. a number of my rabbi friends and imam friends tell me they feel safer when christians talk about jesus and not other things and young people would tell me they're formerly something. formerly catholic, formerly baptist. yet, this jesus, this brown skinned jewish rabbi who drew up

in palestinian occupied territory, he's talking about a whole new way of living. turning the world upside down. turning power upside down. blessed are the poor. blessed are those who are hungry for justice. blessed are the meek, the humble, the peacemakers. the young people i'm talking to, even those who left religion, are interested in this jesus. so it's a time to say we have to reclaim jesus. he's been politicized, been silenced. he's been sabotaged. he has been maybe marketed, sold. so i think people have sold jesus out. so i want to go back to jesus. and the book is what are his questions? what did he say? he asked questions like were you prompted questions like who is my neighbor.

that's a question that jesus prompted. and that's critical to all of our policies. what is true, jesus, you know the truth and the truth will set you free. that's so critical right now. who is the greatest, jesus says the servant is the leader. not the one who just wants to -- as he puts it the general tiles want to lord it over the people. wealth, winning, losing. no, who's the one who's the servant so this turns the world upside down and i just feel hopeful out there that -- so christianity today is another conversation. this is all changing now. >> having this conversation on christmas eve, the reverend jim wallace, the book "christ in crisis, why we need to reclaim jesus." 202-8000 for evangelical viewers

and 202-8001 for the others. good morning, katherine. >> caller: good morning and merry christmas. i'm a born again christian and i have a few bones to pick with trump. he said he grabs women by the -- he is an adulter, and he's a prolific liar. he imprisons brown babies because they're brown. as a born again woman, these are things that christians are supposed to stand against. and my question for you is how does trump who has had many, many people around him who have been of great character, how does he totally corrupt everybody that comes around him? because he's a man that does not believe in constitutional law. he doesn't believe in rule of

law. and he doesn't believe in a high moral standard. >> well, this is the question that i hear on the road all the time. how can these evangelical christians support donald trump when he does and they mention all of the things that you just did. this is where the crack in the wall is occurring, the curtain is being torn here. christians who are born again, evangelical like you are and i am, are saying we can no longer accept this behavior toward women. toward immigrants. is the racialized -- the racialized language. everything is using racial bigotry and division for his political purposes. and so we are asking not just a political question. because we're on different sides of the political spectrum. and that's a good thing.

christians can have different views but it's about trump's moral behavior. his character. donald trump's policies are antithetical to the policies, the politics -- the politics of jesus i'm saying are antithetical to the politics of donald trump. >> i want to get your thoughts on jonathan zimmerman's column. instead of indicting evangelicals, my fellow democrats might pause to reconsider how we dismissed morality. period. in 1992 we insisted that mr. clinton's personal behavior wasn't relevant to his potential as a president. sure we acknowledged his marital infidelity was unseemly. his public behavior as president has been more egregious than mr.

trump, but character counts. in the 190s clinton defenders demonstrated our disdain by placing it in ironic quotation marks. >> he is right. and they spoke out against bill clinton's immoral behavior. we said agreeing with the author here, character does count. moral character is important. what's sad, what's sad john is that in those days, evangelicals, 70% said character counts. and therefore, clinton's behavior was relevant. 30% said it didn't count. that's been totally switched. now evangelicals about trump say 70% say it doesn't matter. it doesn't count. only 30% say it does. this is a switch.

fundamental moral switch among evangelicals. sojourners was one of the few publications of faith based publication that spoke out against bill clinton's behavior. and the liberal left said we should in fact move on. that's how move on was formed. we should move on and i said no. this is -- these are moral character issues that have to be addressed so i think the consistency and mark -- in christianity today was consistent. they spoke out against clinton's moral character and now donald trump's moral character. so consistency is what people are looking for from people of faith. >> sojourners the magazine is at so jo.net. and shelly is an evangelical voter in orange park, florida. good morning. you're next. >> caller: good morning and merry christmas. >> and to you. >> caller: i wanted to thank

you, sir, and reverend wallace i so appreciate you and i have respect that you -- for years and all that you have done to elevate the conversation around christianity and what it means to be a christ follower. and -- i don't quite know what's happened with franklin graham except for i believe he has bowed to the altar of power. and i would ask if you -- the point that you made with regard to white evangelicals as opposed to african american christians of which i am. and speak to the temple -- which i believe is very much the case. because i believe the gop has co-opted the evangelical church for political gain using wedge issues constructed around

righteous topics with unrighteous pretense. >> reverend wallace? >> well, to be honest, sister, i was -- as a teenage boy i was pushed out of my white evangelical church in detroit over the issues of race and war. and the black church took me in. i was saying how come we live the way we do in white detroit and from what i'm hearing and reading in the papers i was a kid now, listening to my city, that in black detroit life was so different. i couldn't get the white christians to deal with that. so this is racial bigotry is a gospel deal breaker. it's a deal breaker for the gos pell, why isn't it for the white evangelicals who support donald trump. so your question is my question. and democrats who are reluctant to speak about faith it doesn't make sense when you have voters,

your base, african american women, women like our sister here who are the most religious population in the country and yet democrats have been reluctant to speak about faith. i hope that changes in this election season. and let's be clear. i don't want to create a religious left like there's a religious right. i don't want to wrap my -- i want politics to be wrapped around my faith. here's a radical idea. that our faith should shape our politics and not the other way around. so the faith should hold us accountable. democrat, republican. it shouldn't be politicized or just worship at the altar of power that's what's happened. transactional politics for the sake of power. king said it well. king said the churches should

not be the master of the state, the servant of the state but be the conscience of the state. we should be the conscience of the state. not the master, controlling things or just the chaplain. we should be the conscience and that's what i think we need in this 2020 election season. >> about ten minutes or so left with the reverend jim wallace taking your calls this morning. phone lines split up by evangelical voters and all others. good morning. >> caller: good morning and merry christmas, c-span. my concern is that these evangelicals have traded their christian values for political power. you look at them going into the -- talk about the religion, they wave their hands and when -- or rather they go into the religious experience very solemn. but when donald trump is mentioned, they stand up, they wave their hands and they cheer.

donald trump has become the evangelicals calf that they have created given that they have walked away from the -- thank you. >> well, the teachings of jesus are the most important question. whether we're going to be followers of jesus or not. i think it is a question of power and let me put it this way. i believe for some time that the religious right -- the franklin graham, jerry falwell jr., all of those, ralph reed i believe the religious right will rise and fall with donald trump. they have risen with donald trump. he's give them tremendous access to power. that's what they seem to be most wanting. yet, i think they're going to fall with donald trump. and it will be because of not listening to what the brother says, the teachings of jesus. i mean, if i'm a christian that means i'm a follower of jesus

and what jesus said, what he did has got to be foundational for me. so this book is just all about what are his questions. you know, what could he ask of us and what did he prompt others to ask and how do we follow him in 2020? is the most important question. so it's not political left, right. i'm saying don't go left, don't go right, go deeper. go deeper in the -- into what jesus said and did and that's what this debate is all about. >> justin is an evangelical and a voter. go ahead. >> caller: hey, merry christmas. >> to you too. >> caller: merry christmas, i haven't heard you say that. >> merry christmas, blessed christmas, it's my favorite season always every year. >> caller: you're telling me that if i vote for trump i'm going to hell? >> no no no no. that kind of talk is what we

have had too much of. i trust your integrity, your faith, i'm saying we have to bring our faith into our politics. so all of us have to look at what we believe. and candidates. we can't vote for the kingdom of god. the kingdom of god isn't running this election, so we have to make choices. what are our values, what's our faith, and what does that mean. for example, i think when jesus says the way you treat the immigrant, the stranger, how you treat the stranger and the world in the greek means immigrant refugee, how you treat them is how you treat me, so a candidate's policies toward immigrants are a christian question. how we apply our faith, i've got to apply my faith. you've got to apply your faith, and i would never say how you apply your faith will take you to hell. never say that. >> this is lynn, an evangelical voter. good morning. >> good morning, sir, and merry

christmas to you both. >> and to you. i am a veteran, going back to the vietnam war in the middle '60s but i have something i have to say and ask you, sir, do you remember the ten commandments and i remember them and who would be our moses today. the civil war, in the middle '60s and that's all i have to say, sir, and merry christmas, and will you respond to that. >> you and i are from the same era, my brother, and back to the black churches, the black churches talked about moses, and people rising up and finding their liberation and freedom, and dr. king, i'm going to go back to him for a moment here, when he called the church to be not the servant or master of the

state but the conscience. to me that was raising the moral issues. i want to go back to that. so i don't look for a moses in our politics. i look for people who are trying to do their own policies and values. and i want to say hear are my chris ch christian values. here's what jesus requires me to do, and i look at their policies and i try to make an imperfect decision about which candidate i'll vote for for whatever office in the country and so i just want our faith to come first and not politics first that wraps around faith and controls it. and i don't want people to say as they're saying on the evangelical right that the only vote you can make is for donald trump. that's foolish. i don't want to say that on the other side either, but let's apply jesus's teachings in this book, christ in crisis is going to be used by pastors around the country to say i want black and

white churches to come together and say who is jesus here, what's he saying, what's he doing. that i would love to see. black and white churches together studying what does it mean to follow jesus in 2020. >> where are you headed next on your book tour? >> the good news is to a lot of places, it's the flyover country. you know, a lot of people in the midwest and south, in rural areas want to have this conversation, and so sometimes i do a pastor's conference in nebraska, missouri, kansas and they'll say, thanks for not flying over. so we're going to go to lots of cities. i think about 40 cities in this next year, and try to have a conversation intergenerationally, even interfaith with people who aren't sure what they believe. but let's look at what jesus said. so i want to get past the

politicizing of religion and how our faith can reshape our politics. i think we face a test. i do believe democracy is at stake. i think the rule of law is at stake. i do think the separation of powers is at stake. mostly i believe the poor and vulnerable are at stake, and so how do we become people of faith and not just politics first, faith first, not politics first, and i think that will help us raise lots of questions in 2020, and i'm going to be doing that all over the country. >> let's keep having that conversation. come back and talk us to again. >> i'd love to. >> the book, "christ in crisis, how we regain jesus." >> our 2020 live coverage returns thursday on c-span 2 with president donald trump in toledo, ohio, at a keep ameri