lectures in history on american history tv. and lectures in history is available as a pod cast. find it where you listen to pod casts. up next on american history tv. joyce lee malcolm on benedict arnold's success in the revolutionary war. she questions whether allegations of him being an american traitor are accurate. this one-hour talk is hosted by the university of washington as part of their great lives lecture series.

well, good evening, everyone. welcome. one of the country's most noted, perhaps, maybe say noted for the wrong reasons. for generations the name benedict arnold has almost universally illicited a one -- elicited a one-word descriptor "traitor." today we're here to hear the rest the story.

the program would not exist today without the extreme generosity so we're delighted they join us tonight as it give us the opportunity to express our deep appreciation of all they have done with our program. not just for tonight in particular, but everyone. please stand. [ applause ] today's speaker earned her degree from -- in comparative

history. she is published widely including essays in the "wall street journal," "financial times," "usa today"" and other news groups.

ladies and gentlemen, it's a pleasure to welcome to the podium, j. joyce. -- dr. joyce. thank you very much. a pleasure to be here. i want to thank the professor and the sponsors for inviting me. it's a real treat for me to be able to talk about this subject. the state of the union at benedict arnold's time was not good. [ laughter ]

he's widely known as professional crawly said, for treason. before that, he was one of the great heros of the revolution. and i would like to get into some of the details and the context in which he's -- it was acting in that revolution. it didn't really seem to make sense about someone who actually risked his life on numerous battle fields who, the congress didn't pay his men, he paid them from his own resources, and really took that opportunity to serve his country before he decided to change sides. there's a picture of the man in his younger days.

he sat during a court marshall. by the way, he was court marshalled not for any military problem but for some of the feeling he had misused his position for financial gain after he was wounded and serving in philadelphia as the commander there. he said i have suffered in the same fabric of reputation, which i have been with so much danger and toll raising since the present war. undermined by those whose posterity as well as themselves will feel the blessed effects of my efforts. below that is a description of one of the men who fought besides him and who he lead at the battle which was the beginning of the battle of saratoga. he was dark skinned with black hair. there wasn't any waist temper in him. he was our fighting general in a

bloody fellow he was. he didn't care for nothing. at any rates, these damning judgments about him didn't seem to make much sense and i wanted to have a better understanding of what he did before and why he decided to change sides. the sort of classic historian of british army said this about arnold. he said in natural military genius, neither washington comparable to arnold. he possessed all the gifts of a great commander to boundless energy and enterprise and united quick insight into a situation.

and command this. benedict arnold was the most formidable opponent that could be matched against the british in america. now, and particularly, i guess, advertised in that tv series turned his lovely young wife has become equally notorious and regarded as the eve who tempted her husband into committing treason. i'll say a bit about peggy when i get to that point in history, but, obviously, there are a lot of events in arnold's life. i'm not going to be able to talk about unless you want to stay here all night. i'm going to highlight some of the particular points.

i want to go into the battle of lake channel plain and start in october of 1776. the british had amassed some 13,000 british, irish, and german troops in canada ready an assault going down champagne. there's a lot of emphasis on trying to single out new york state and separate it from new england in order to give them an advantage. they had bringing over ships and the americans had no ships on the lake to combat the british fleet. it was four miles wide at the widest point and about 400 feet deep in some spots but also very

shallow in the inlets. the new york committee of safety was desperate about trying to build some kind of a fleet in order to stop the british fleet from coming down the lake and taking albany. they asked arnold to build that fleet. i'm from upstate new york, it's not the ideal place to be building a fleet of ships. en in good weather. but arnold had been brought up by a father who was a merchant seaman. as you can see, he spent summers on the sailing ships with his father going across europe and up-and-down the coast of north america. his father died after a career where he became depressed and alcoholic and bankrupt and arnold started his own business and became a merchant seaman, as well. he was an ideal person to ask to build ships.

he tried to recruit artisans to build the ships. it was hard to get seamen because most of the people who were experienced seamen were with washington trying to protect manhattan from the british. he personally selected 20,000 boards of timber to build the ships. the timber has to be aged because otherwise it's going to crack and be useless for the ships. this was the main ship that was going to be his. it's called "the royal savage." he was responsible for snatching it from the british after he took took ticonderoga the year before. they got the ship from canada. he also built a couple of skooners and galleys that were oil -- 80 feet by 20 feet and two masts.

and the series of ships were called gondolas. they are traditional gondolas. they actually carry a crew of about 45. they have45. they have six cannon and then this one mast. they are more maneuverable than the british were bringing down and very good for the waters there. so in the course of two months, he was able to build this fleet of some 15 ships. the british built their fleet, actually in, canada in three months. and one of the things they did that i thought was quite amazing was that they brought over from britain prefabbed sections of ship that they then assembled when they got to canada and prepared to come down lake champlain. this was the largest of the british ships, thunderer.

the british had much bigger fleet, as you can imagine. flexible and thunderer were the two larger ships. they each carried six 24-pound guns. they 20 gunships and five large vessels. and thunderer was the largest ship ever seen on lake champlain. all of arnold's ships together had a combined cannon weight which is the way they evaluate. the cannon weight of 2 -- 703 pounds. the british ships by contrast had a combined cannon weight of 1300 pounds. they had almost twice the firepower arnold's fleet. arnold is surveying lake champlain to find a proper place to send his fleet to await the british coming down from canada. he decided that they -- he would take his fleet. if you have a smaller force, you don't want to be out in the open. you want somewhere where you're

protected to be in the shadow of an island called valker island which you can see on the map. looks much bigger on that map than it actually s but arnold's ships are the little clear ones in the shadow of that island. and they hid there from august until september 23rd when he took his ships with 500 men to the island. they were painted red so they would blend with the leaves that autumn. and camouflaged with spruce trees which were sharpened on points and put around the edges of the ships to keep enemy sa sailors from boarding. they waited for the british fleet to appear. the british were spotted at 8:00 in the mornling. the british didn't have that island on their map.

they came sailing down and they went beyond the island, you can see the dots going down. and didn't even see arnold's fleet until they were about five miles south of the island. at which point they turned and had to go upstream in order to fight the americans. they went toward the british ships to lure them into the shallows around the island. but he got caught in the crossfire and his ship got stuck on a reef and just devastated. he had to switch to another ship called the congress. by noon the fighting is general, the noise of the cannon could be heard 30 miles to the south. the battle raged for six hours. it's real why to his credit that this little fleet was able to keep the british, this much

bigger british fleet filled with experienced sailors and offers fighting for six hours. by the end of it, 80 men were killed or wounded. they used up three quarters of the ammunition. and the ships were in really bad shape. they retreated further into that channel next to it valker island. and the british were just assumed that in the morning they would be able to finish off this little american fleet. arnold had a plan. unfortunately, his route of escape was to the south, down to crown point and then the british ships were, as can you see towards the south end of that island, you had to figure out what to do. i'm just going to reach a little section from the book about this. this is that evening.

>> they rode threw throuough th waters. arnold prepared for this moment. he had a plan, a desperate but doable plan. the fleet would escape that evening by slipping between the british ships blocking the island channel then dash south to crown point to safety. it was an exceedingly risky strategy. many of the vessels were badly damaged and some were leaking. the little fleet with its 500 sailors had had lost 80 men, killed or wounded including officers with 20 others captured. if any of the british crew spotted them, they would be vulnerable and readily destroyed. but what other option do they have? it was a moonless night and they set out at 7:00. a heavy autumn mist shrouded the american ships as they began moving in single file. the men's shirts and kept the wounded below deck so that their cries and moans would not be hurt and alert the enemy.

each ship is completely dark except for a small lantern and the shrouded one in the bow. a chalk mark on the rear rails lit by a slit in the lantern made the vessels turn just visible to the ship immediately behind. wiggleworth and the galley trum bled, one by one the gondolas and smaller vessels followed in silence. the congress with arnold aboard and the washington were last in line. the procession pass sod close this he could here the sailors cheering. they unlocked the three largest men of war a mile out from the western shore of the lake inadvertently leaving a passage way for the american ships to slip through. they got through that night. the next morning when the british admiral was convinced he would be able to just finish off the american fleet, he discovered that they were gone.

they could not have done. that he didn't know. that first went north looking for them and then when he couldn't find them, he turned around and went south. the american ships had gone about seven miles to sky letter's island in order to try to repair some of the ones that were repairable. and then they head ford crown point which is 28 miles to the south. as they were going, the british eventually caught up with them. and so two of the ships, the congress that washington was on and the ship washington turned to fight the british fleet, well, the rest of them got away. the washington was really badly hit and it's commander surrendered leaving arnold and the congress alone against the british fleet. they fought until the masts were torn to pieces with little flag flying with the tread on the flag we're so familiar with in

virginia. and eventually ran out of ammunition and with the ship torn to pieces, he broke through on some of the little gondolas and made for a creek that was on the vermont shore. the men waited ashore with the weapons. the ships -- and burned the ships so that british would not be able to take them. they then began a march through the woods. they finally reached it on october 15th. >> the admiral in charge of the british fleet had caught up and destroyed most of the american fleet but it was now late in october. he didn't have any particular supplies up in that part of lake

champlain and in new york. he didn't know what to do, whether to wait and through the spring and, you know, stay there right through the winter or not. he decided it was too risky staying there. his ships might get frozen into the ice. so he turned around and went back to canada. the result was that even though arnold's fleet was destroyed, they were able to hold the british up long enough that they saved new york and banly falban another year.

for the gallant defense they made against the great superiority of the enemy's force. the historian was scathing about carlton having to go back up to canada. after that, arnold went with gates south to washington's camp. and he was there about the time that washington decided to cross the delaware and attack trenton. by the way, washington actually had to do that. because the men were in such short shorten short enlistments, while he had them under the command, they crossed the delaware and were able to

conquer trenton and waits one great victory for that time. congress decided. they deprived him of any of his general officers. we read about soldiers of france and germany coming across, you know, to join the army, they were given superior commands by congress, not by washington. and there was a lot of disgruntlement among the officers of the american army that these people were brought in over the, you know, put in superior positions over them. they took from washington this ability to appoint and discharge the officers. then they promoted five junior officers to major general ahead

of arnold. most -- some of the people had never done anything and washington was really amazed that congress had done that and wasn't sure why. it turned out that apparently you were only according to congress allowed to have so many major generals depending on the number of men that you were in regiments from your state. it was considered a polite way of telling you were no longer wanted. i was thinking that even today sometimes when somebody is appointed over you, there's this sense that maybe this is a nice way of saying we're sorry. so at any rate, he was ready to resign. but washington asked him to stay on and he said he would stay as long as washington felt the

services were needed. he went back to connecticut where he had his wife had died but he had three children who were being looked after by his sister and his business that she was looking after, not in a very good way. she sold off virtually all of the equipment and supplies that he had. but that was her way. at any rate, he was treated as a hero in new haven and hartford and middletown. but while he was there, he got a message that the -- well, he was at home trying to figure out his finances, he got a message that the british had landing troops in connecticut and were on their way to take some of the supplies that the americans had been

gathering there. a currier had arrived at home with his news. some 26 ships were spotted off of shore south enouof new haven. danburr q danbury was lightly defended. two generals were leading 600 militia and had already marched off hoping to protect the supplies at danbury and arnold rushed from his home to join them and rallied the militia to help him. the officers and men arrived about four miles from danbury at 2:00 in the morning only to learn the depot was already in flames along with many houses in the town. and the british led by the governor of new york accomplished their goal and they were gone. the americans weren't sure which way they had gone and were determined to head them off before they got back on their ships. so they divided their exhausted troops to take them on. pursuers and pursued struggled

through driving rain. members of the connecticut militia were proud to rally hund arnold and joined him. the british were heading for ridgefield, town of ridgefield. a apparently they had some really good information. they set homes of known patriots ablaze and the church where the munitions were stored. a lot of people living around that were happy to tell them who they should be looking for to harm. one of the men who had taken some of the troops had taken two men along another route than arnold. in fighting this elderly gentleman, he received a fatal wound. arnold and another general began a march to ridgefield with 500 militia and they caught up with the regulars about 11:00 in the morning. they had 500 men but the troops were outnumbered by about 2,000.

i'm losing my -- here it s 2,000 of the british regulars. arnold ordered his men to make a make shift barrier. here we go. here's ridgefield. we didn't want it to be arnold's horses. he was always having horses shot under him. when you're brave and on a horse that, horse doesn't have a very long lifespan. in his case, this case the horse fell and it trapped his leg under it. a young local dashed up to him shouting surrender, you're my prisoner. and with the mighty effort, he freed had himself saying, not yet. and drawing his pistol he shot

the man in the chest. he then lept over a fence and bullets were spraying around him. the following day sent off a message to waylay the regulars from the front while the men attacked him from the breer. the british learned and they were able to get away. after this rallying of the troops and trying to protect connecticut, congress relented and they gave arnold his promotion to be major general. but they did not restore the seniority. but at least they decided to give him that promotion. they were talking about how

grateful for the things he's done. this is the major one. when he was at saratoga, washington sent him because he felt that the militia would follow him. it took self-confidence and a spirit to rally people in order to do that. the officer would was in charge of the army at saratoga was general gates. who would like arnold when he built the little fleet on lake champlain. but arnold was a protege of washington's and gates was someone who wanted to replace washington. he was jealous of arnold. he had been dpind to the tent during the battle by general gates. and left without any command. the ground was shaking from the pounding of the great guns.

after being confined to the tent and i'll go a little bit into why that happened, he could tolerate no more and mounting powerful dark horse he dashed toward the battlefield shouting to his aides, no man shall keep me in my tent today. if i am without command i will fight in the ranks. but the soldiers god bless them will follow my lead. come on, victory or death. i gallop straight into pursued by john armstrong who gates, general gates had had ordered to bring him back. but orarnold was faster in catching up with the brigade. he asked the men who their officer was. a soldier shouted colonel latimer, sir. >> he was delighted. my old friends. p god bless you, i'm glad to see you. now come on, boys, if the day is long enough we'll have them all in hell by night.

the idea that someone without any official command could get out on that battlefield and the men would follow him. and they did. the reason that he had no command was, as i say, general gates was not fond of him. he was jealous of him. he wanted him to go back to basically leave the army there. the men petitioned they wanted arnold to stay. so even without a command, he stayed. t person that did not leave the tent that day is general gates. spent the whole day in his tent and one hifz men who came to tell him what was going on found gates was spending his time

arguing with a wounded british officer about the merits of the revolution. he was very disgruntled that he couldn't convince this officer that the battle is a good idea. there is gates in his tent, you know, arguing with a wounded enemy. first attack was beaten back. but a second with bayonets fixed the infantry from the brigade. leading brooks' regiment, attacked and suddenly was aware of the -- what is called the sally port where the british lines opened up for anybody who knead needed to retreat. he led his man right at it. he could see there was a weakness in that line and that's where they needed to go.

there you can see the different men -- these are different officers, morgan's line and they're all american officers. and there's gates at the back there. his headquarters you can see in the southern part of the map. and then arnold going toward that. so he attacked the redoubt and at the sally point. the germans facing them fled firing a final volley as they went. it was a leg that was hurt a year before when he was in the

battle to take them back. but it had heeled. and now it was really just shattered. so one of the men, an american private that saw orarnold fall,e shouted to him where he laid helpless, don't hurt him. he did but his duty. he's fine fellow. he shouted to his men, rush on my brave boys and they did streaming over the british and this is the attack that basically turned the battle and won the battle. but when arnold was hit, one of the fellow officers asked him where he was hurt when he went down. he said in my leg. i wish it was in my heart. later on, he was carried from the field bleeding and helpless. he waived way the officers who hurried to help him and captain

dearborn asked where he was hit. he said he wished it was his heart. they caught up with him. of course, he was hurt. but he did -- he was unwilling to go back to headquarters. the men of the militia company carrying for one of their own carried him to the field hospital. gates never set foot on the field during the bat that will day. nor did lincoln, the second in command. but gates was given the honor of having won that great battle and congress had had minted a special coin and there is a wonderful painting of the surrender with gates accepting the surrender from the british. this is a great turning point in the revolution. because of that great victim rishgs the french had been sort of quietly helping us decide to come out openly and support the americans, it was basically because of them that we won.

once the french got into the war, the british realized they were going to have to pull back a bit in america because they had colonies and interests all over the world where the french would be competing against them. so this was really a tremendous help. arnold, of course, spent something like three months in a military hospital in albany. the doctors wanted to amputate his leg and he would not allow them to do that. now the amputation would probably have made sense because he might have got gangrene. i think he didn't want to because did he not want to live a cripple, really. he would have preferred for -- this is just my thought on it -- preferred to have died. actually have a picture of him falling during that battle. after three months he was okay.

he survived. he was having to learn to walk again. he was really, really badly maimed from that and never completely heeled. i should say on that note that years later when he was in exile in britain, he had several sons who joined the british army. a couple of whom fought in india. one was shot in the leg. and he refused to have the doctors amputate it. he died of gangrene. arnold was, i just think, not willing to put up with that because he was now wounded, he could not take the field and he was sent to philadelphia by washington. the british evacuated philadelphia leaving a terrible

mess. arnold was to be the commander to ensure order and stability as they came back. this is where he meets peggy, his lovely woman. see if i have her. this is arnold at philadelphia. here's peggy. much she was the most beautiful woman in philadelphia. i know, we look at that picture and think she doesn't look that spectacular. but -- well, i don't know if the portrait doesn't do her justice. but all of washington's officers were in love with her. she was lovely. she was 18. her family were neutral. her father had had been a judge working on one of the admiral courts for the british and then had had -- the war broke out, obviously, he left.

i hate to fell thotell those of enjoyed watching that show on television, actually, she was wooed by arnold and married him. the government of pennsylvania was led by a committee of council of seven people and they were very radical. they had fled when the british took over. they came back. they had a long list, over three names of people that they wanted arnold to arrest right away as people who were possibly loyalists or suspect. 332 people. and also some people that they wanted to convict with a bill of attaineder which is just basically voting in the legislature that somebody was guilty. arnold refused to arrest all these people.

one of the founders recuseded a lot accused of treason. they didn't like arnold at all. he was too moderate. they ventresented him. they had drawn up a whole list of charges against him that they felt he was not being -- he was misusing his position. he crossed over to new jersey with those. the they drew up the charges and printed them in the local paper and sent copies to over other state and insisted that the congress court-martial arnold. the couldn't nentinental congre philadelphia. so they really did have the congress right there in their

backyard. he was highly discouraging to those who manifested their attachment to the liberties and interests of america. disrespectful to the supreme executive authority. that is themselves. there was also a lot of division within the patriot side. so there were people who were more moderate. people more radical. and the radical pennsylvania council had gotten the militia charged up. they were barricaded in their house against this radical ma ma lisha when attacked bringing

rods and crashing on the board and shooting occurred. fighting broke out. and six or seven people were killed. by the time he got there, the council had appeared and they simply arrested everybody. the congress decided that washington had better have some kind of a court-martial. and arnold wanted it because he thought it would clear his name. there were court-martials all the time. i was just amazed. but at any rate, they this

washington write him a letter censoring him. and it's around this time that he decides to approach the british. one of the other things that happened to him and then i'll conclude is even though he resigned as commander in philadelphia, he was tacked in the street by thugs who claimed that he was in favor of the loyaltyists. he asked congress if they could provide a guard to him? he said we can't do that but ask the pennsylvania government. of course, the pennsylvania government are the people that really disliked him. so just sort of felt like there was no way to get around these people. they also felt that he had not been careful enough with the money that they had given him

for his military campaigns and that he owed the congress 1,000 pounds. we're running out of time. but congress didn't pay him for years. but they insisted that he owed them 1,000 pounds. so he had -- he was just kind of besieged by all these things and had, you know, decided to approach the british. i don't have time really to go into his treason. he had planned to allow the british to take west point where he was made -- he had become commander of west point. the british intelligence officer was caught on his way back to british lines with where the plans were stuck in his boot. you can sort of see this.

he's being taken out. he was cornereded by three men that were basically bandits waiting for rich people to come by. but -- when they had him take hoff his boots, they realized he was a spy probably. and they took him to the nearest military headquarters. where he ended up being tried as a spy. he was not wearing his uniform. he was a very, very gallant man, even though he was a spymaster, everyone thought he was wonderful. and ended up being hanged and on the way to the gallows, the people who captured him wept as went. he was a very sympathetic person. i should say, too, the british never forgave washington for having done that. and some years later arnold -- andre's bones were dug up anticipate carted off to britain where they were buried in

westminster abbey and poet's corner. at any rate, arnold when the british left with them, peggy, his wife, was at west point with him when this plot got discovered. she had only fwln a couple weeks. she was there with her 6-month-old baby. i don't believe she knew anything about what he was about to do. it's likely he would have told her. she was given a choice of going into exile with arnold in new york or going home to her family in philadelphia. and she decided to go home to her family. and i'm sure that if she was guilty she would never have done that. that was extraordinarily dangerous to do. they're akin to hang people in philadelphia for treason. she wanted to stay with her family. but the council in philadelphia did not want anyone who was

connected with arnold getting any information back and forth. they insisted she go into exile. and her father took her -- she was the favorite child. took her up to new york to go into exile. i don't think he ever saw her again when the war was over. she and arnold were evacuated to london and that's where they stayed the rest of their lives. there are only monument to arnold is this boot that was erected actually by a -- someone who served an officer in the civil war. it's of a lag that arnold's leg that was shattered during the battle of saratoga. there is no name on it. but on the back it says in memory of the most brilliant soldier of the continental army who is desperately wounded on

this spot. october 1777, winning for his countrymen, the decisive battle of the american revolution and for himself the rank of major general. he obviously made a terrible decision in siding with the british. and all of the things he had done before to support the cause and secure american freedom have been just lost in the memory of this terrible treason. there is a stain glass window that this is a picture of that was erected by a resident of new jersey not long ago. and in that london church where arnold and his peggy and his daughter are buried. a very tactfully, says, you can see the british flags and the american flags. very diplomatically says on it, the two nations whom he served in turn in the years of their

emity have united in this mem norral as a token of their enduring friendship. okay. thank you very much. >> ready for questions? >> questions? yeah, bill? >> you sold us arnold is very brave person for the u.s. but yet he was a traitor. and he went over and lived in britain for so long. why didn't we go after him? why didn't the u.s. go after him? why did he do that? >> he did try.

i think washington had had a price on his head. before the brit ush left, arnold was in new york and he led a couple of british campaigns. one in virginia actually. one in connecticut. there is a price on his head. people were after him. they were never able to capture him. washington was unwilling to release andre in exchange for arnold which is what the british officer clinton would have done. the british were annoyed in a sense. they got orarnold. he escaped and went to him. andre was captured. and maybe arnold would have been willing to be traded. but they were -- the british were not willing to do that. and then, of course, once the british left and went to -- back

home, there wasn't any chance of that. they volunteered later. but they didn't accept him and he came home to peggy and he said, they will not let me die a soldier's death. but that's a good question about -- >> more questions? >> we have one here. >> were you surprised with what you found about benedict arnold when did you the research? >> i really was. i was surprised at the amazing ability of the man. he had never had any special military training. and, yet, he was just a brilliant officer and leader. of and had that kind of charisma that made people want to follow

him. but i think he also was one who would not tolerate fools. so he had a string of enemies. the other thing i found surprising was this division within the patriot side of people who were more radical and people that were more moderate. they had a shootout in philadelphia. that amazed me. i had no notion of that. >> in plain view, americans are being assigned british royalty positions. in lieu of that, isn't it hypocritical america for calling benedict arnold a traitor? >> well, i thought that was very diplomatic on the stain glass window to say he served each country in turn.

i guess it was franklin who said if we don't hang together we shall all be hanged separately. i mean that was a really dangerous to have taken on britain. so i think, you know, he was a traitor to the side that won. i mean if britain had won the war or if we negotiated which is what a lot of people had hoped, he might have been considered a hero. he chose wrong. he sacrificed fortune and health and all his property was taken. he could never go home. it was really sad. i called the book the traitor -- the tragedy of benedict arnold because i really think it is a tragedy.

>> did he do so because he thought the british were going to win the war? >> i this i that is part of it. basically, he was just disgusted with the way he had been treated. and at the end of it, they still insisted they owed them 1,000 pounds which he didn't have the money to pay. had his father was bankrupt. he felt he wasn't being respected. and it meant a great deal to him reputation and honor. and honor is one of the most, you know, key things for gentlemen of that time period and some ways still terribly important. so i think he felt dishonored about that. they actually sent a commission promising the americans everything they had first asked for except independence. and saying, you know, we'll give you all of this if you keep fighting, you may not win

anyway. and that the end of the day you'll have all these things. and you'll spare yourself more bloodshed. and that makes some kind of sense. you know, people will stop fighting. most of the people who started at the war thought it would end very quickly and it didn't. and they got quite distraught and very few people wanted to serve in the military and congress wasn't paying them. you know, there was a lot of reason to be disspirited. so thinking about it, the monday morning quarterback's long, long list afterwards, it made sense. its with a real shot. particularly since he was such a hero, it was a terrible shock. >> so you touched on this. i was wondering what you think of the portrayal of benedict arnold in the series turn. >> i have to confess, i haven't watched it. i'm a historian. i get quite upset by things that

are historically inaccurate. but i have heard and i no he that whole story about peggy is not true. and, of course, they -- i gather she's supposedly partly responsible for his treason. the things they say about him don't make sense. that if you were self-serving and greedy, why would you risk your lifetime and again for the cause? so there had to be more to it. but i guess i should watch that and then i can be -- speak more learnedly of it. >> thank you so much for your comments. can you comment about the relationship with free masonry. he was made a mason here in fredericburg. we talk about him in our lodges as well as some of the other guys overseas. and he's -- they're not supposed to even mention his name in a

masonic lodge. i wonder how arnold would have reconciled his decision and can you tell me a little bit about his masonic history he and how it related to his decision to do what he did. >> that is very interesting question because he was -- he set up his business in new haven. and that is one of the earlier places in connecticut that had a masonic lodge. and it was very prestigious to be a part of it. he was nominated to be a mason. so, you know, he was a very respectable member of the community. and i was, you know, impressed by the fact that he, you know, he was a sort of young man without a -- with a family back ground that was clouded by his father's having been a drunk and, you know, a tether. yet, he had so much to build up his family that they made him a mason. i thought that was really surprising. i don't know more about the masons than, you know, more

internationally than that. but i thought that meant that, you know, people regarded him as a very respectable, you know, enterprising young man. >> how did he make a living after he left for england? >> he got a pension from the crown. and peggy got a pension from the crown. he also tried -- he had three sons in connecticut. his wife died in 1776. and so peggy was his second wife. and then he had more children with her. and he was constantly trying to provide for his children. so he went to canada several times and tried -- and set up a business there. but he spent a lot of time trying to make ends meet and particularly to do something for

his children. i think that's why they ended up in the military. that is respectable and a family business at that point. he had a lot of trouble worrying and ended up living in humble circumstances. >> you tell how he -- one of the sailor was going to turn him in for smuggling. how common was that? how is that accepted by the community to just go and, you know, run the guy out of town and beat him up and all? >> very knowledgeable. i think that most of the americans were quite happy to live with the smugglers. the goods were cheaper.

john hancock was a famous smuggler. jury that's tried smugglers almost always found them innocent. in fact, that was why the british began to try americans for smuggling in london. because they did not want to try them before american juries. there was no way you were going to convict anybody. so i think that there was sort of a general connivance with this kind of thing. and, you know, i don't think that people minded too much. i mean, they resented this guy telling about the smuggling. >> you mentioned that after he went back to england he then joined the british army and invasions in connecticut and virginia. which, of course, is true. my question is, was this part of the west point deal that when he turns over west point he would go to britain and back a british

officer against the americans or did it just turn out that way? >> actually, those two campaigns -- the british were still in control in new york. and he had wanted to serve as an officer in the british army. so that was, i guess, part of a deal as it were. the british were very cagey about what they were going to do for him. he wasn't a field officer very much for a while because of his serious injury. and they kept saying, don't worry, we'll take care of you. we'll take care of you. but he knew as soon as went to the british he was going to lose all his prouperty, you know, hi property in pennsylvania and in connecticut. and so he really needed to have some kind of position. he wasn'tednted a military posi. it was part of the arrangement. he had the two short campaigns, one in connecticut and one here

in virginia. and one of which sent jefferson actually fleeing from this area. >> other questions? last chance. all right. now -- wait, one more. >> perhaps there is a lesson in the motivation that's superior commanders have. have you noticed the plot follows the story of benedict arnold so closely? and at the certainty of which is a woman. >> yes. helen. i haven't noticed that. that's interesting. yeah, i don't think a woman was so central to this one actually. sort of makes it exciting to think that. peggy was actually very faithful and stayed with him in exile and not very happy.

she came back to the u.s. once after, you know, years later, to see her friends and family in philadelphia. it was very sad. she just went back to london. >> with all that out, before we say thank you again, lit me tell what you is coming up thursday of this week. if you put it up there, we'll look it up. we look at jane goodall by the primary biographer. it is this thursday. i hope you will be here for that. with that, we say thank you to professor. >> thank you.

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james haley, author of captive paradise, he discusses the life of lilly uokalani. this is a 75-minute talk as part of the great lives lecture series. >> so thank you for that too kind introduction. i'm delighted to be back here at mary washington. i threat i threatened when i was here a year ago january i may never go home. it's customary to warm the audience up with a few funny stories about your career. if i had known 14 months ago i was coming back, i wouldn't have told you all of my funny stories. so it's probably best we just move forward with our talk. now i am anglo.