silver spoke about president lincoln's influence on new deal americans in the 1930s. the abraham lincoln institute and fort society hosted a symposium to highlight the 16th presidents life, career and

legacy. this is about 50 minutes. >> if everyone could pleaser se. take their seats. welcome back. i am the chairperson of the board of the abraham lincoln institute. tor the curator of the abraham lincoln papers at the library of congress. thess..aa president of the unid states traveled by train from washington dc to gettysburg pennsylvania to visit the battlefield and dedicate hallowed ground. eakingspeakingudie before an aue that included p veterans, the president addressed the challenges the nation then faced and thea gove need to pree a government of the people.

the year was 1938 not 1863.th ethe veterans were 75 years older. the new york hwas fdr not abraham lincoln. the new york herald tribune reprinted that speech under the headline roosevelt's gettysburgn address. roosevelt dawns lincoln armors at gettysburg. seldhelps to wonder how a statet of one generation wit wouldd surmount the crisis of another. a statesman deals with difficulties with things thatnst must be done from day to day. not often can he framehe far-o conscious patterns for the far-off future fdr the sacknowd in his remarks. tatulthe fullness of the staturf lincoln's nature and the fundamental conflictct to turn to him for help.

it is such evocations of the civil war past in a new deal era context that nina silver examines in her new book. professor silver introduces a new character to historiography of the civil war memory anding s explores how americans histo reinterpreted the civil war to meet their own needs during the great depression and world war ii. since completing her training as a historian at uc berkeley, professor silver has returned to the fertile field of civil war studies toith uncover new perspectives with which to engage civil war history. she has documented the gender dimensions of the war in daughters of the union. in the romance of reunion, she

traced the ships and northern sentiment toward the south during the. of reconciliation. ltieand of the casualties of tht reunion. in addin addition to her public, she has further understanding of the civil war era through her distinguished teaching careerer heron s contributions to public history projects. i can testify to her ability to inspire and inform. form.having long benefited frome insights of contained in her academic scholarship, i read anl ar interview in which she was asked if she collected historical artifacts. as a result for the first time learned of the existencee civil war nurse barbie. [laughter] did you know that barbie was a nurse at gettysburg? pphysicaliven her attributes, perky personality,

accessories, for, i'm guessing that barbie did not serve on the staff. she is still waiting for the barbie dream ambulance. if you understood all of those jokes, clearly this war aint over for you either. [laughter] here to share with us how new deal era americans reshaped the legacy of abraham lincoln, please welcome nina silver. [applause] >> thank you. barbie met lincoln in that book. at least there was a picture of them. thank you for that kindse introduction. am honored to be here in this setting. i have never been on the stage at ford's theater before.

i am deeply grateful too to bite john white and the lincoln me. institute for the kindtudies t invitation to be here. bitan tell you a little he more about me. i am a scholar who the studies e history of thei also american cl war. i also study how we use andve sometimes how we a r misuse the history of the civil war. i am interested in how peoplein war.appropriated the have reinterpreted it over time area often they do that in a way so that itbeen speaks to thr present-day concerns. they manipulate the history to present. the anybody who hasn't been under a years knowst fewhe something about how the civil war continues to get reappropriated andter nts, civil reinterpreted in the present was day. in every recent clash and encounter over confederate presen monuments, civil war historyt- continues to be retold with present-day concerns in mind.

something similar happened in the 1930's. opleit wasn't so much with monuments because people weren't building monuments in the 1930's. the 30's were a decade ofno h crisis end of people that some people thought had a lot of similarities to the 18th these. no historical figure came in for more reimagining or reinterpreting during the 1930's than abraham lincoln. be prepared, this is not going to be me talking about lincoln in the 19th century, but it ishe going to be mere talking about how lincoln was imagined in the 20th century. during the depression decade, lincoln was everywhere. movies were made about him including one by dw griffith as better knownwon lincoln movies, young mr. lincoln in 1939 with henry

fonda. lincola lincoln in illinois with raymond massey. in the 1935 film the littlest rebel, lincoln meets with the petite confederateshir sympathir played by shirley temple. she met lincoln also. the two of them shared an apple and then lincoln frees her father who was falsely accused of being a confederate spy. there were two popular plays. he was a very popular staple in the theater. in one of these, he wasbor dis reincarnated as a kentucky college professor who helps to resolve a labor dispute. [laughter] i have read a lot of

lincoln screenplays and scripts and that is onef th of the strar interpretations of lincoln that i have come across. he was also frequently in the thick of 1930's politics often scrutinized and celebrated. his power went beyond political symbolism. herl s also struck a deep emotil accord with american in these years. phycarl sandburg wrote a wellt known multivolumeov biography of the 16th president over the 1920's and 1930's. he probably did more than prairg anyone to give lincoln an emotional heft. the son of swedish immigrant parents who had settled on the illinois prairie, and berg seemed that working people will and perhaps immigrants saw something in lincoln that made democracy viable andhat

accessible. sandburg used the documentary style that becamean d wapopularn the 30's and was style that was employed by writers, only sandburg applied this to surrounding him in a collage of historical details and allowing him to merge seamlessly with the thoughts and feelings of ordinary americans. that connection to ordinary people very much suited the mentality of theth 30's because it was a moment when people elite bankersme andonom politicians. they said those were the ones responsible for creating the current economic crisis. that they tended to believe or what p wanted to believe that the folkt lincoln cothe plain peopleio

would help american democracy survive. sandburg's work was on the mind of literary critic when he remarked that americans have developed a passionate addiction to lincoln. inston 1942, after having writtn lincoln columns and completing portraits, the painter marston hardly used even stronger language when he said i am simply dead in love with that man. n, linin did not radiate that kind ofln attachment or passion. there were not these kind ofof declarations of heartfeltlt love for abraham lincoln. in some ways, he didn't even radiate the same amount ofwere power that he would come to talg have in the 1930's. he dido poit's not that people t talking about him. he didn't seem to possess strength in the same way thatdea he would come to have in thetion 30's. ashe had been true for decades, lincoln stood as a figure of moderation and reconciliation.

he was described by former president william howard taft as reflecting the brotherly love between north and south. in 1930 with economic ailecollae looming, president a g hoover hailed lincoln not as a great emancipator but a great moderator. his words, said hoover, poured their blessings of restraint onl each subsequent generation. griffith used lincoln as a subject for his first talking film. griffith was another one who said he was very much influenced by carl sandburg andk wanted to incorporate his in wok in what he was doing. he even tried to hire carl sandburg to be a consultant on his film but it turned out the sandburg wass i think he found someone else. nonetheless, griffiths lincoln has nothing of the sandburgrg lincoln about it.

he is a bland and monotonous figure in the film. he is your standard issue person. as oas one reviewer explained, lincoln made ae notable attempt to be fair to the two has of our nation. like a lot of the abraham lincoln's who were betrayed inin this earlier. or before class and had been writing, lincoln was also a crude frontiersman. in one scene, the president flops down on the white house floor to take a nap. it was a very bland, neutral, who wasgued lincoln portrayed. i think that image of lincoln in this.

reflected the reluctance on the part of many white americans to invest the 16th president with substantialbe power. precisely because lincoln in these years had to be safe.. he had to be moderate and someone who could heal the ones of sectional division. ins be this way, lincoln was beg part thatto play a he had been playing since the end of the 19th century when the story of the often told as a tale of fraternal division that gave way to brotherly reunification. vividly imagined in the idea of white soldiers from opposing sides shaking hands across a bloody chasm or across the stone wall at gettysburg -- gettysburg angle. -- thereco idea of reconciliatn seemed to be about two more or less equal abosections coming together. not really about a nation or

about lincoln imposing power on its subjects. especially those who came from a rebellious section of the country. had lincoln been imagined as hea really was, as a figureut of federal authority forcing seceded states into the bal political submissions, heanced,d have complicated that feel good reconciliation narrative. emotto keep things balanced, lincoln took a backseat to theki emotional bonding of north and south. ndthis is the kind of image of lincoln that you get in dw griffiths earlier motion picture, 1915 birth of a nation. there are a lot of things that are odd about that film butut about the things odd way lincoln is portrayed in that film. i would describe the lincoln in

birth of a -- nation as oddly androgynous. he is weepy, he wears a shawl, father ands bothhe mother figure tofilm. the amerin people. in the end, it is not lincoln who helps to give birth to the nation in the th andfilm. outhbut the consolidated power f white men north andu kl south especially the ku klux klan. this image of a relatively weak lincoln reaso presidency may ale one reason why the story of lincoln's youth, his frontier upbringing and awkward but romantic encounters and mediocre performance, these bece stories became so captivating in the early 20th century because here was territory that could be mined for engaging human material fwithout having to venturere business of lincoln as a figure of powereasu who actually enactd measures that did not meet with universal acclaim.

in the 30's, lincoln looksul different and he is not a bland figure of moderation. he seems to foreshadow a more powerful nationstate that was extending theth his blessings of freedom to a iowider group of americans. his image being consciously reworked by writers and politicians, the lincoln bee a forerunner for the groundbreaking workks of fdr's new deal. in 1934, carl sandburg helped usher in this newncol lincoln wn he comparededs na fdr's national recovery program and its assistance for industrial workers to lincoln's role in emancipation. 's both presidents used their position to proclaim a new status for an oppressed people. takingdr a cue from sandburg, fr also made aalso lincoln his modl

for initiating social reform to expand executive power. lincoln did not simply heal the governmentranscended sectionalism and brought new meaning to assure a government the promotion of life liberty and happiness of all the people. fdr styled lincoln as a 19th century version of himself. no longer just a healer and reconciler, lincoln now became aligned with the centralizing and reforming efforts of new deal liberalism. so has sandburg also had sugges, the new deal lincoln was also great emancipator than a great moderator. it is true academics andlincol's popularizers had called

attention to this aspect ofto te lincoln's presidency but the fot work of freeing the slaves came even more to the forefront during the 1930's and the new deal. writers and artists and politicians imagined lincoln not unlike the way fdr imagined himself as someoneliti who channeled a new political energy to make people's lives better. lincoln they said strengthened the hand of the federal government in order to attend to people's distress. a distress that was once marked by 19 century slavery but could just as easily be by marked bya economic crisis. ordinary people often use this language in letters that they wrote to roosevelt. abraham lincoln freed thehe slaves. and now you are about to free the child and wage slaves. this was language that was used

frequently. people wrote lots of letters to fdr and members of the administration. they often made these comparisons. they used the language of slavery. they would draw out the ideaea that someone likee roosevelt was needed to free the slaves. the it wasn't quite so simple to talk about both presidents freeing the slaves since one president, lincoln, had directed his actions toward enslaved black men and women. s upportersd his reluctant about being associated with a racially defined agenda. as a democratic president of n the early 20th century whoees a- needed the support of powerful white southerners in his party, roosevelt preferred keepingg racial issues on the backstatusc the political prd littlerow interest in upsetting the racial status quo in the jim sou crow south.

feeling the political pressure of white southerners, roosevelt refused to give his support to the federal antilynching law being urged by some members of congress. hehe also referred to think abot lincoln in a race neutral way. as someone who practiced a broad-based humanitarianism that helped all people. lincoln, fdr insisted, was an emancipator not of slaves alone but of those of heavy heart everywhere. i am pretty sure this is not have people in the 1860's would have interpreted the emancipation. [laughter] they worked hard to redefine slavery as asl conditin that affected white much as black. sometimes in fact whites seemed to suffer more from slavery thanaver african-americans. the slavery of the 1930's wasc

mainly about the economic devastation and constraint thatt largely affected wage the majority of whom were white. despite the fact that all of our peopleleas are free d have the right to live and work where they erplease, there are many whoe contend that our toilers live in virtual economic slavery. the assumptions here that everyone could live and work noy where they please, something abt that was not available to african-americans, suggested afa that they were not really thinking about african-americans in this definition of virtual economic slavery. according to a representative of pennsylvania, lincoln'sman bd hatred of precious human beings becoming chattle would have seamlessly extended into his distaste for the new slavery that placed men in economic

peonage. this quality made lincoln a new dealer of the late 1850's and early 1860's. he 1in the 1930's, people seemep more comfortableeo seeing lincon free white people and not black. hose oy hearin roosevelt's phrad those of heavy heart everywhere. in american popular culture, heavy hearts seemed to rest mainly in the souls of white men. in a popular 1936 play, a reincarnated lincoln comes to kentucky to help white coalheiro miners fight their own brand of slavery. sstriking miners in a parade ob across the stage and hold aln. sign that reads free the whites. an objective that very much appeals to lincoln. when lincoln appears in the shirley temple film, his task has nothing to do with freeing black slaves. ackinstead, he is there to grant

shirley temple's request for freedom for to imprisoned white men. one, her confederate father. the other, a kindly union officer. if you know the premise of john ford's young mr. lincoln, you might recallll that henry fonda's lincoln hass. virtually no contact with black characters. his real work involves helping to white brothers who had been falselyf th accused of murder ad in the most dramatic moment of the film, the two brothers faced the wrath of an angry mob, then lincoln turns backs wh of the mob and after t, melds a successful defense of the two brothers so that he again liberates white men from confinement. yet, in a very halting and hesitant sort of way, some new dealers acknowledged the possibility that race played a part in keeping people down in

both the and 1 1930's and 1860'. lincoln's attention to racialer emancipation did merit atiosome attention and consideration. when the african-american singer marian anderson was banned from performing in the daughters of the american and '' revolution concert hall here in washington, many figures and fdr's administration, including eleanor roosevelt, helped to arrange anderson's new open air concert in front of the lincoln memorial. ining ofthey also alloted lincs role in striking the chains of slavery from marian anderson's ancestors. i think the timing of k ththis concert is particularlyis p important. it is april, 1939. awareness of nazism abroad.

ad.after comparing jewish singes being banned from ater nazi stae and anderson being shunned from the dar hall, one person pointed out the a crucial difference between hitler's germany and roosevelt america. in washington, we have a shrine for abraham lincoln. in this more explicit of li acknowledgment of lincoln'sn wao role as emancipater, including his work in freeing those of an oppressed race. lincoln was poised to take a new role as the 1940's begin. he appeared with increasing hollywood movies and broadway plays. he figured as the central subject in aaron copland's 19411

lincoln portrait, celebrating american spirit in the of harbor.of pearl he featured greater prominence in fdr's speeches. not surprising because roosevelt hired lincolnoosevelt dramatist robert sherwood as a speechwriter. it was the civil war, not the revolution that was used mostor often in world war iild propaganda. it was the image of lincoln, not that of washington or jefferson that rit flashed ritualistically on the silver screen. the powerful associations thatti throughout the 1930'sng had connected lincoln to fighting slavery helped turn him into the type of symbol that warren remembered. it is true that slavery had

been loosely defined. it suggested that lincoln hada come to embody a certainne type of moral energy that couldth galvanize americans inat a new global conflict. i should say at that moment, americans needed that kind of motivation. as late as 1940-1941, there were many who remained deeply cynical about the devastation deeply cynicali, in any further foreign entanglements. in this context, timely reminders about lincoln and hiss commitment to helped people recall a moment when a truerue moral purpose guided americans were objectives. i'm just going to say that i am borrowing from another scholar. her there is a literary scholaro develops some ofpoin this point. i am borrowing from a literary

scholar who talksks about the wy lincoln is used in the lead up to world war ii. he suggests that in recalling abraham lincoln's moral purpose to free the, am slaves, americas might find a model of inspiration for fighting hitler. writerssl and artistsav repeatey and explicitly referred to lincoln in his fight against slavery as a metaphor for understandingrstand and the figt hitler and fascism. office of war information produces a poster thatil proclaims this world cannot exist half slave and half free. lithe republican newspaper william white agreed that our free. great round earth had become a veritable neighborhood that cannot live have slave and half free. lincolnhims himself waself was d as a figure who had a history of fighting slavery cothat coud underscore the moral urgency americanss needed in the new global conflict.

robert sherwood held up lincoln as a way to urge americans to get off the sidelines when certai' principles were at stake. in lincoln's commitment to ending slavery, sherwood presids recognized the 16th president as a supreme non-isolationist in his essential faith. him this made him an ideal figuy thatonvincing americans despite their skepticism about foreign intervention, they should commit themselves as new two this foreign entanglement. this presenteded artists with new opportunities. the more lincoln was used in wartime propaganda, thea, the mt gave african-americans chance to remind their fellow americans that slavery was a

historically specific experience that continued to impact black life in the united that states. black journalists saw a chance to urge the roosevelt decision to deliver a consistent message, the message that recognized oppression based on race, both abroad and at puthome. as one writer for the chicago defender put it, if wouroosevet cared about fighting slavery, stand by the reconstruction amendments and make sure therati negroes were t returned to dichattel slavery. ctfailing to do so would be no different than enacting laws similar to hitler's declarations eating. -- and edicts. as always, i would did its best

to romanticize this. the movies in the latesome w 19s 40's seemed to acknowledge that some way or other americans undertaking the fight against slavery. i would like to conclude my by revisiting and old and familiar film, perhaps one of the most iconic gnomes in hollywood this perspective in mind. it is not usually what we think about as your movie. the film i have in mind is casablanca. it appeared at the end of 1942 was directed by a hungarian immigrant. dy she embarked on a steady strm of moving moviemaking. he made two extremelyfe unmemorable civil war films,er

the santa fe trail virginiafe f. city santa fe trail was a poorly named movie if there ever was one since nothing to do with santa fe for a trail. it did show a historic jed stewart played by harold and george custer played by ronald reagan. they joined forces in pursuing a fanatical john brown.to geraymond massey traded in hisss lincoln outfit for a john sbron outfit. ititca together of white soldiersg across sectional lines common cause. in this case it was union andthe confederate soldiers he noted the west late in the war in order to fight some bandits. also a filmshould not be explored to deeply. casablanca is also a film about

reconciliation ot about unifying nazis allies it is about bringing together the indifferent skeptical way and victor laszlo played by paul won ride, the unity that is achieved when rick discards his cynicism and understandso ta the need to taka standnazi o against nazi oppres. there is a suggestion of the civil war's relevance to current events. her about the last elsa reminds time they saw each other in paris. >> i remember every detail, he says he. the germans wore gray. you wore blue. the color scheme is important. it does not directly say the confederates were not for thehe cause of freedom. is more subtle than that.t.

between you and slavery, butot v this evolution from indifference to commitment. sit is the it is the process by which rick dedicates himself to the anti-nazi cause. his journey is meant to reflect a larger american journey, how it becameefle necessary to break with the interwar period and accept the need to fight one critical step in that journey involves giving the new war a strong moralto overlay to make clear the new fight was about principle,iple not materil gains. as i suggested, no figure better symbolized moral conviction in wartime that abraham lincoln. not to worry. worryi am not going to convincu abraham lincoln shows up in casablanca. i know that he does not.

iritbut his spirit is there. nothing illustrates this so clearly as the moment when rick's competitor asks if the cafe american and sam are for sale. how does rick respond? lincoln, i don't buy or selll human beings. man this line, perhaps more than any other reveals the ethical underpinning that that signals rick's transformation, his willingness to take a morale sad stand. i think it is no accident that he uses the same kind of anti-slavery language beingfficr used by the office of war information and robert sherwood. it is very likely that the author of humphreyy bogart's anti-slavery pronouncement was howard koch, a casablancanot

screenwriter. even though lincoln himself does not flash ritualistically across the screen, casablanca the moral urgency that was effor being used to get ames behind this new effort. this lincoln was once again, or at least in spirit, being reimagined and reinterpreted. in some ways, this may be a lincoln that inspired a and stronger and more passionate addiction. this was a lincoln who would have an impressive career in world war ii. and even after in the cold war that followed. linthis was a lincoln who fougt

slavery at home. and who could inspire a fight against slavery, however that slavery might be[app defined ona global scale. thank you. [applause] >> love your imagery. imagery and messages are everything. you mentioned some of the own se writers as america is dealing with its own sense of identity, what it is, who it it is, whert is going in that time of where you are looking tim at who lincn is, and they are erecting the confederate monument we are dealing with right now. therthere is this dichotomy, ths tug-of-war in social consciousness. i am wondering where this wave has gone, where it was at the

time, where it seems to be in the late 1900s, late 1800s to early 1900s. looking now at the international influence and impact where it had to define itself even more. it seems coming to grip with one place in your domestic identity, you are dealing with what is happening overseas. you feel you are to be insular. there is so much going on. >> use the microphone. [inaudible] >> there are not a lot of the monuments that are bg built in the 1930's. ar, lot of the monuments were earlier, so 1910, in thehe 192'. 1920's. in the 1930's, there is a competing narrative.

think of gone with the wind. let'ss celebrate the southlo ad it's lost cause. what is very interesting to me about the 1930's is it is a t moment when you can seehi two ways of thinking about the civil war, a pro lincoln point of view more clearly in contention with one another. there are clear lines beingl drawn, definitewa differences in how people are talking about the civil war. ster that is a very interesting thing that is going on in the 1930's and 1940's. the point about theternuati true international situation is definitely true because trying to understand for franklin roosevelt tot to understand howe u.s. fit into this whole new world dynamic and trying to actually establish american prestige in the fight against not seasoned, it almost

necessitated this idea that you had to address the problem of slavery, the problem of racial oppression twithin the u.s., ae certainly african americans making that point very clearly. .s.,i think one way that roosevt and others tried to addressss that idea is by into such an important symbol, bys suggesting there is a history of racial oppression in the ahu.s., but then there isam lincoln. therwe have a shrine for abraham lincoln. pthere is a possibility of combating that racialin ame oppression in american history. >> think you for being here. in your talk, i heard father, healer, shrine. tfor a time i have thought about lincoln being assassinated on good friday.

my question is, does the attention to lincoln becomen tht nearly religious, and what would lincoln think about that? [laughter] >> thank you for reminding me. in the 1930's, i don't feel it has a strong religious overlay. there is a way in which the movie young mr. lincoln ends on a supernatural -- so i think it is possible lincoln has always had those associations. i don't find the particular images that emerge in the 1930's to be stronglyi would al religious. mosti would almost say overly secularized is the kind of lincoln you get in the 1930's

and 40's because he is put in concert with current events. that might be different from the lincoln that emerges in the1 1880's and 1890's. 890'i think because lincoln is o often discussed in theiscu same breath as current news items, it has a way of secularizing him. i don't feel the religious part comes out quite as strongly. t qu>> thank you very much. >> i loved hearing you refer to robert penn warren. i got to interview him in 1977 as an undergraduate. you mentioned alfred kazen andd aaron copland. why don't you mention followerer, who was a of joseph stalin. he is very influential inn

of thatstudies because dreadful chapter he wrote on lincoln. did you know in 1946 all of one of falkners novels had gone out of print because the i' stalinit literary community had disapproved of it. where is stalin in the 1930's and 40's? >> i'm not sure where to put him, i guess. >> he is there, definitely. stalin did not want philip randolph marching on washington in 1941. he is there. >> ok.k. thank you.nk about that. >> i am curious, when did lincoln groups start to perform,

when did they start d to grow, and when did g lincoln's name begin to the use in many different places? >> my impression is you can find clubs with his name, schools and towns. that is all happeningely af immediately after the sense assassination. my sense is monuments and statues are later. maybe a the 1880's and 1890's. the lincoln memorial is 1922. there is a kind of, i guess i should say my remarks are not meant to say that he is being ignored prior to the 1930's. he is being recognized, honored,

celebrated. i i think there is a kind of switch in the 1930's in terms of less talk about lincoln moderating and healing, and more a figure ofe wh power, a figure who actually represents the most consolidated power of theidat american government. i don't think you had that image earlier of lincoln, but i do think you rlier have that ine 1930's. you h inyes? >> there is an eve subtle reference to lincoln in casablanca. if you recall rick ran guns and spanish war. that was the lincoln brigade. [inaudible] >> microphone.

phonyou are not at the micropho. >> he ran guns. >> i thought of the lincolnder s brigade. you would wonder if that was almost subliminal. at tpeople would have known that reference at the time. ack an>> i will go back and loot that. thank you. to>> two questions, if i can remember them both. did any of the southernay you segregationist democrat after politicians say you are using a lincoln as a simple, and after the war, this is going to cause us a lot of trouble because all these black soldiers are going to come home? what about us now? secondly, the southern voters were solidly for fdr. alabama. god in georgia and

do you think he overestimated that the southhe t would turn against him if he took even the smallest steps to improve civil rights? >> i am going to have to remember. i think roosevelt was very conscious of not alienating the southern wingg of of the democrc party. i think that did inform his decision about therough congres. anti-lynching bill coming through congress. i think southern democrats, there was a lot of tension in that relationship. in 1938, roosevelt goes on this campaign to encouragee liberal white politicians in

the south to challenge the conservatives. agaen thepeople like margaret l wrath of godke the d id on fdr. they say this is just like reconstruction all over again when the federal government tried to interfere boutwith everything. it was a very tenseats ated. relationship. it was not like anything fdr did was great. i think there was that problem. the question about southern democrats and the use of lincoln is complicated. i think it was not so easy to simply dismiss lincoln in the 1930's. tyrantthannot say he was aa and all this. thereerta were certainlyin peopo did that. ifi think if anything, what southern democrats tried to do is just not talk about lincoln. for example, one thing i found interesting was douglas freeman, the biographer robert e. lee. he spends a lot of time leading up to world war ii and during world war ii trying to turn robert e leeld winto a relevant figure for americans in the

second world war. he talks about his military strategy and otherr plans he has. even douglas freeman at one point writes this essay,, antique knowledges that lee is an important symbol. so is abraham lincoln. essay, antique knowledges that the power of abraham lincoln was so much that even somebody like douglas freeman had to acknowledge that at this moment, the historical figure who seems most relevant to what we're doingure is abraham lincoln. >> fdr being overly cautious, if you look at hisdr bei resultt was the same in those states. epeople might vote for segregationist congressman and governors, but they adored fdr. >> i think you are right about that absolutely. one more? yes, i do have one more. >> this was a wonderful talk. nderi always thought fdr embracd

jefferson more than lincoln. did he connect the two? i always felt that jefferson was more in the forefront than lincoln. jeffe>> jefferson was definitef important. e jefdr spoke at the dedicationf the jefferson t memorial in the 1930's. 1943. thank you.s noit is not as if jefferson was being overlooked. he does take opportunities to infuse jefferson things he talksk ab about. en htrying to think about momens when he connects the two. i don't think so. i would say lincoln's relevance to current events kind of elevated him for roosevelt. and for many other people. roosenot just in the new deal administration. when i think about popular noture, jefferson is.

there. when you think about, is it mr. smith goes to washington? it has the big scene. e isthere is a way in which the lincoln rose above jefferson for that moment. thank you. [applause]use]