"the presidents," from public affairs, available now in paperback and e-book. presents biographies of every president, organized by their ranking by noted historians, from best to worst, and features perspectives into the lives of our nation's chief executives and leadership styles. visit our website, c-span.org/thepresidents, to learn more about each president and historian featured, and " order your copy today, wherever books and e-books are sold. on with us next is kevin rea baron. he is the executive editor of "defense 1." on, great to have you with us this morning. >> thank you. >> here to talk tro aboutop not what's currently going on, the use of federal troops, but the istory of federal forces inhave quelling unrest across the united states. first off, your thoughts on what you've seen over the last few days with the federal troops,

forces, national guard, and h ia other law enforcement units gathering strength here in the i nation's capital? >> gathering strength.ington, that's a good way to put it. you know, it's extraordinary. for a lot of usforces who a liv watched it for a long time, we're used to seeing security forces and motorcadesci and sect service and even some military, but i've never driven through the city for block after block, the traffic is stopped and andd cordoned off by, you know, military humvees in camouflage s or des browerdesert-brown tan p and it'srace striking and it's revealed a new set of questions not just about trump, but about the race question and about the protest, but about the use of the militaryrypo and the really unique betwe relationship betwe military and thetroops civilian politicians who control pem and the difference between, for edel

example, active-duty troops versus national guard troops, ug versus all the police and federal law enforcement who are on the ground't you know, line them all up t. against protesters, they don't all have the same set of rules. they don't have the same sort of training or mind-set.ht war you know, being a police officer in the community isutiv ae lot different than being a soldier trained to go fight wars. >> you are the executive editor of the online publication "defense 1."licy. you obviously -- your organization covers the military, covers the pentagon and u.s. defense policy.sident how early did you and your t: reporters get a sense that it was going in this direction in terms of the actions that president trump would take? >> well, i think just like everybody else, you listen to what trump would sayed i andnt e would tweet.the you could tell he was getting frustrated when protests became violent and turned into looting. and the way he kept begging the governors or, you know, yelling at the governors to get their national guards out, to get more

forces out, and then threatening to federalize the national guard and to send u.s. placestroops, was like kind of the final step, the one that, you know, we only saw in places like little rock and on the steps of university of alabama in the 1960s, where -- but that was in a different set of circumstances, you know.tion, to in the '60s, troops were used ak often to either enforce integration, to provide, you know, greater freedoms and viol equalityen to black americans.n. and in this case -- or also to e stop violent protests like after the 1968 conventions.e you of tknow, this time is a li different. >> tell us a little bit about the background of the use of th? insurgent act. this is this 1807 act, as i understand. what power does it provide the president, and when was the last time a president used it in the united states? >> well, it's supposed to be the kind of escape positive from the

posse kamikaze sacks.at is wh traditionally, the united states military is not allowed to be li deployed domestically on u.s. ground, especially to perform law enforcement duties. that's, you know, what separates us from living in a kingdom. the king can't send his troops to quell his subjects. so, that's where you have that . lull. instead, states have national guard. a lot of people may not know coe this, but we're saying, the cas state governors control their national guard, who you see when the hurricanes or natural ke con disasters come, sometr cases li this. the president can invoke this insurrection act to help with two things. he can take control of the state national guards or he can send t federal u.s. troops, active duty army, navy, air force, marines, into the united states to been perform law enforcement duties, difference, bigr wi th right?aw . so, right now, for enfoexample,. u.s. military has been deployedc to thean border with mexico on u.s. soil, but they're not performing law enforcement

duties. they can't stop someone and e arrest them. they can proceed logistical help in the background, isr to d intelligence through surveillance from theo. st:sky, it's -- it seems ticky tack, but it really is a legal question of what you're allowed to do. d >> we just read a report a few minutes ago that florida a governor ron desantis is sending 500 troops to d. krcc.. and what other states have asked for this and d.c. already has national guard.we h why would additional be needed? >> just that the president wants more. he called for thousands and note thousands, and frankly, we haven't been able to ascertain from the pentagon or white house or anyone else in government exactly how many troops have come to the city.th they won't reveal er but let me tell you that it's a lot. i don't know that it's thousands and thousands, but there's a lot in the city.the't d.c. is unique.e. i'm pretty sure to get it right to say, d.c.'s mayor can't make the decision of whether or not to allow the guard coming in. that's when the federal -- the

u.s. army's national capital region is in control of the district because it's this unique spot. it's not a state in its own. which is why you see the d.c. il mayor actually b tweeting out, u know, statehood, a longtime an n political battle for the cities of washington, taking advantage of the situation of statehood. that's why we need statehood, so others can't send their people here. there's been a battle with the t guard, so originally, mark esper asked governors from virginia and maryland and pennsylvania and new york to send national guard, and they said no.one they declined. no coincidence, they're a spec democratic governors. they found other states who were willing to send them. so, last night, one of the th biggest groups we saw was from utah, a special operations unitd they look like they might be un active duty. they've got a lot ofer point acy patches, but they're not. they're from a national guard unit, which is another point i think worth saying. to people on thehe street, most americans don't know the difference of the national guardsmen and an active-duty soldier when you look at them on the street. it's not that simple.host:

not that it matters to them. it's still troops on a city street, and that's a pretty shocking sight. >> have some governors turned down the request from the white house? >> yes. as i said, that's what was virginia and maryland, the request from the whouite house? >> yes, that's what i said. the democratic governors. >> the executive editor with defense one, and we're talking about the insurgent act 20248-8001 for democrats.the wo we'll get to markrk esper in a moment. the headline of your piece sayse trump finally gets the war he wanted.he there's the defense secretary and the chairman of the joint chiefs. what did you mean finally this f getting the war he want snd. >> the division in the united qr

states? our beatat anddoes h the nation defense beat we've been tracking for a long time. does trump really want to pull out of afghanistan and iraq or does he want something different? because he says he dead but deployed more troops. places like syria, north korea, iran. he's the kind ofps politician a leader -- this is a different td thing.to s this is the division that i think even jim mattis was talking about in his eft an extraordinary comment last night to say this president lives off of stoking division.he loves he loves to poke the media. he loves to fire up his base with, you know, just the extrem partisan views and comments.he he has sds directly i think leslie stall on "60 minutes" he

knows exactly what he's doing. so thisis kind of division he think is good for his politics,h good for hise re-election chancs and i assume he thinks it's good for america, too. that's what he wants.here you know, everything that the far right is calling for. guard >> c in addition to d.c. we kno and minnesota where else is the national guard been called up? >> you said minnesota. we've seen them out los angeles. i saw a decent group there. i believe miami. i'm not exactly sure. i've really been focused mostly on washington. >> let me play you the commentst of the defense secretary yesterday at his briefing, and you may have been there and heard this, but i want to play it for you and get your thoughts on what mark esper had to say. take a listen. >> at times, however, the united statess military is asked in

support of governors and law w enforcement to helpp maintain lw and order so that other americans can exercise their right free from violence against themselves or their property. that is whateek to thousands of guardsman are doing today in cities across america.e utmost it is not something we seek to do, but it is our duty.th and weat mon do it with the utm skill and professionalism. i was reminded of that monday as i vizzed our national guardsmen who were on duty monday night e protecting our most aloed grounds and monuments. i'm very proud of the men and nf women ofar the national guard w are out on the streets today als performing this important task and in many ways at the risk ofo their ownr welfare. i've always believed and continue to believe that the ao national guard is best suited p for performingto domestic suppo to civil authorities in these situations. in support of local law

enforcement. i say this not only as secretary of defense but also as a formere soldier and ant former member ol the nationalas guard. the option to use active duty rt force in a law enforcement role should only be used as a last resort and only in the most urgent and dire of situations.te we are not in one of those situations now. i do not support invoking the oe insurrectionon act. >> news reports indicate hat th. president was not too happy wita those comments by his different secretary. >> yeah, that was quite extraordinary. we in the press corp were waiting for esper to come out and make comments himself specifically about his turne appearance in thatd photo-op opportunity and clearing the s. park monday night and showing up there. and instead he kind of turned it into -- he did a little bit of spin. he came out saying we in the is military came out in support of the constitution and he just

repe repeated it.tution to me that's him. is th toe th states saying we're not the army of president trump, we're the n army of thewh constitution, andt this is the rule of law at which lots of military commanders to , have served under trump to say. you may not like asking what trump but it's the law. until it's illegal or immoral they're not going to do it. and the moral question can be debated but that's their stancea >>ordi finish. go ahead. y >> the second part on race i think it's extraordinary that he also said yesterday he had sent a memo out to the force, you know, calming like a lot of us have seen from our leaders and r the workplace, for example. this is time of unity, the thi country needs to come together,n racism isar real, systemic raci is real.r these are things it's extraordinary that the commanders in the military felt

that must be said.we have there's no other sighting. there's no all lives matter. this is we have to do better by our black brothers and sisters in americacr especially the unid states military. but he's been catching a little criticism for waiting so long.ne after a good 48 hours secretary of defense put out a statement, we saw some statements from likl the fleet commanders from europe and africa. so there's a lot of calming and support and calls for unity.utio much morens focused on securitye than on civ unity and, you know finding solutions to all these

civil problems being protested.4 >> we want to8- remind our views and listeners we set aside a line for those of you active duty military, 202-488-0003. saying in part in that piece generals must follow lawful mp n orders such as helping to enforce curfews to preventing lawful protests from turning violent. if trump can enlist or appear to enlist the military in his scorched earth campaign against his enemies then he threatens ts undercut more than the military it was reputation with his conspiracy theory claims the election is already rigged against him and democrats worried he'll try to steal it from them.ank yo trump threatens to undermine american democracy. marvin's retired military in chattanooga. thanks for being with us. >> as a retired military person

i'm a vietnam veteran from the most decorated company clerk from the total vietnam war. home may 25th is marvin -- day in tennessee, that's me. and when i came home in 1969 an. saw in 1970 as a college student the united states government shooting at their own people and killing their own white children and i said to my god if they'll do this to their own white people what will they do to another race?stat all these things turned around has been totally monitored by the president of the united states during these periods.l w. and in this particular period this particular president of the united states is leading us to o civil war. i would like to ask him in his dispersement of troops into the black neighborhoods, what u' happens inre the state capitol

michigan, lancing, michigan, ah when youror armed citizens stoo in the face of their -- of authority. >> marvin, thanks for being with us this morning. kevin, any thoughts? >> first, sir, thank you for calling in. it's an honor to hear from you. it's a good story. this is frequent complaint i've seen. clearly armed protesters who were white stood atot show the capitol. the president said, oh, i they' got a great right to protest yot should listen tohe them, and th police didn't show up in riot gear ready for a confrontation. they lookedprot in normal unifo. this looks different. frankly i think it's a little t bit of apples and oranges because that protest they may have been armed but there wasn't citywide and nationwide looting and fires which unfortunately ie what happened this time around. and initially the police

response was, you know, to thatn violence. i think what's changed in thehe hi last fewng days especially in tr washington and new york and s. other places we're seeing security services like police and the guard who are pushing rd out peaceful protesters. e now, we're 6, 7 days into it. they're worried those protests are all going to explode once nightfall comes into violence because that's what kept betwe happening in some cities including washington. and, you know, there's a difference between -- there's also a difference between the statehouse in lancing and the white house. security around the white house is like no other, and frankly some of us were surprised they allowed suchkind of a large ga of protesters at lafayette park even on the weekend even thoughl it's kindev of a location of traditional protest yugoslavia . see itt all the time there, buth binot at that level and not after days and days of violence in other cities. if you assume there's going to be violence why let them be there, boy did trump take the

ball and run with it with such large presence. i think this is pendulum. frankly, things are different this week.. >> all right, here's ed in lawrenceville, georgia.ea >> good rd amorning.nd good morning. i know you think you're at the , prime of your life with your black beard and everything but i find you to be a little delusional, some of the things you write, some of the things you say. first of all, i'd like you to know -- i know this is not goini to get through to you, but we aree a republic. we're not a democracy. i hope you could look that up. the thing i wanted to tell you was your portrayal of president

trump and this whole deal is so twisted because i don't think you're realizing we're facing people that are using explosives. they're hitting police officersk on the. head with heavy fire extinguishers. they're stabbing police in the neck. these are our families, okay, w mr.e smily. our gue you know you think you know everything but you don't know what's going on. >> and i'll let you go there and get a response from our guest. >> appreciate the call. you know, i think there's a lot of frustration like the caller has in just what he's saying. when violence broke out, you know, initially i think people go to their camps and the conspiracies come out. and you heard a whole lot of people on the left going it's got to being white extremists. it's just like those armed protesters before stoking all

this. and people on the right said it's got to be antifa, those left guys. the intelligence services come out and sayay no, actually ther were antifa here.e. in a short few days wee started to see video of yeah there are some anarchist left wing folks k causing btrouble, white peopleb causing trouble, masks on inserting themselves into the middle of black crowds and making it look bad and it's become a big, giant mess. absolutely there's been a call a for muchve b larger security services especially in minnesota at the beginning of this that hr theyst shouldn't have been allod to do mat that.this is s in my own city in washington y e saturday night was thecu first g night of violence and we all ec felt the exact same thing. this is a sate of security everywhere. parkernmen police, secret serviy justice, fbi. look up governorexecutive.com. they had ath good piece about h many federal law enforcement in

the city.d start but that first night they weren't there.e. just a few blocks from the whity house the from looters just hadt walkhe over and start smashing windows and spray painting. and they've been tagging the city from georgetown all the waa east to the convention center and beyond. civ and iil reported that. for example, there's a circle called thomas circle named after a civil war general who's from the south from virginia, went to west point, fought for south thn and led black soldiers against the confederacy. he's a hero of blackck freedom in the south, at least he should be, but he's just one more general on a statue in washington. i didn't even know what statue that was until i looked it up, but the ironny is there.e wind i fully appreciate the call by a lot of americans to stop the ho, violence. nobody wants to see windows get

smashed orsu things get burned people getting shot especially the law enforcement officers wh arewhere supposed to be protec us. i think, fortunately, we're ofc seeing a changeer the last coup of days where the protests are becoming more thpeaceful, a lot moree officers are reaching across the line to them. we're seeing hub hugs and hopefully that's the trend we continue seeing. >> this is bob, retired he use military. glad to have you with us. >> caller: thank you. i thought it was my understanding that the president called for the use of troops to, stop rioting not vandalism but not to control or stop peacefult protesters which is what the ti times article said. it made it sound like he was using the military to stop peacef peaceful protesting. i don't think that's the idea.tion >> i think you'real g right, but that's not what happened.

it started with the monday night clearing of lafayette park in front of the white house. national guard were part of that. at first we weren't sure but e t it's been oconfirm. it's not like the troops that the president wants and stayed separate from the rest of the force -- they were all called in together. it's a little bit later in the week of the protests but that's not what we saw earlier but there's definitely been a lot of commingling. you're right, a lotsupp of the president's statements say we support peaceful proat thes buti we're not going to stand for violence and destruction.hurch n i think the difficulty is that a lot of those things happen in the same place.street take for example st. johns church on monday night, the evening before peaceful ones w protesters are in the park, there's a street and then there's a church. and that whole same groupway of people were the ones lighting fires one block away pushing lit garbage cans and dumpsters into

the street at the security services, the police and the guard mixed in. they were spray painting the church all over the place and every other building nearby, breaking windows.ll so how doing you distinguish between quelling the violence or dispersing the people altogether even the peaceful protest ones when it all just explodes in th same place? >> the news report i heard from the mayors news conference yesterday, mayor bowser's news conference d.c. police tuesday night did arrest some 200 i think looters that they encountered. lincolnton, north carolina, republican line. good morning. you're on with kevin baron. the >> caller: hey, first of all i'' going to say i'm for law and order because that's what this program is about. i don't think like what's going in new york and thestop governo and they're letting everything happen. so i think you do have to call s in help andaid ab i think it sh

have been stopped by now.ice. butt i wanted to ask you too somebody had said about a justice system and they wanted quick justice.ian and my thing i want to bring up is the quick justice for trump,. the three years of lies, russian hoax, mueller, the th investigation.e look at how long it's taken. a white man, our president of ui the united statesll and look ho long it's taking, and now maybe finally it's going to come out and the truth will be heard. but where's the protests for that? if it was obama i want to know what kind of protests there svil would be.le, would it last three years if itp was obama? and the last thing i want to say with charlottesville, i'm not sg forgetting when g trump said tha were good people in the crowd and the media went nuts. now all of a sudden we've got good people in a bad crowd and r the media is like, oh, yeah, yeah, good people. so my thing is, you know, bring

out the military. bring out whoever you have to bring out and stop all this crap with the looting and breaking windows because it's not about i floyd.g. that was a horrible thing and justice does take time, and this time it was quick justice and n still everything is happening. so i say end it, bring them in, do what you got to do and stop the windows, and who's going to pay for all that damage -- >> kevin baron. >> yeah, that's a fascinating ty caller because there's somebody who, you know, right down the middle.alking on the one hand she's calling for more security forces, athe h crack down which is what trump wanted earlier and had become point on the lkingway right and left while at the same time she's asking with how trump has been able to get away with just being trumpmp for three years, it never would have happened if it's obalm mu. it sounds like she's angry at trump but supporting him in thir sense, and, you know, i think that's normal.

especially from a lot of republican supporters or even former military who have really tried to not which out against the president, let him be the cs president but. just this week said enough is enough. guys like mullein the chairman of thege joint chiefs, guys lik jim mattis who worked for trump who said generals shouldn't talk and get involved in something h: like this and said enough and enough, i have to speak out.wall people are speaking out. and people are calling for law and order.is say >> the headline here on "the wall street journal" what you just made about jim mattis, fete former defense secretary jim ui mattis says, quote, trump tries to divide us. the headline, donald trump is the first person of my lifetime who does not try to unite the american people, a statement from the former defense secretary.s, kevin baron, the a question for. a text from peter in provincetown, massachusetts. he says aad milit recent shooti military bases is deemed as rod terrorist attack.

already had the military intelligence and counter terrorism units on very high g d alert prior to the current round of protests. how is this influencing current military planning and operations? >> interesting question. more certainly the military like everyone else in the united states is more awaree of mass shootings and those kinds of incidents happening. how this is changing things, don't forget we were all in covid lockdown already including the military and so the military like everyone else was supposed to be quarantined or isolating and beinge troo safe and wearin masks. and it's especially so in the military where troops neededto e at the ready for deployment. if your unit was going to get called to say afghanistan you've got to join your unit and do ov your 14 days of quarantine before you're allowed to go into the field of operations because they don't want to bring the e virus over andnd the same is tr

in reverse. now with domestic emergency and needing troop tuesday be called up quickly it's just as the mi troubling when youdd see all the protesters mask or not masks, we're in the midof a pandemic, same thing is true now in the security forces.' they're nowws shoulder to shoulder, called up together with each other as well. so i think that's one thing. this will effect and cause planners to check ratings of all the units who have been deployed into all these cities.this i longer-term it goes back to what i said earlier about these messages to the force about race. this is the second time in the trump administration thatan the joint chiefs felt they needed to weigh in on domestic social issues and send a message to the force. the other time c they did it wa charlottesville.e. the same exact thing, a raciallt charged white versus black, protest got out of hand. milit but this time it has been, you know, a much deeper call. and i think we often say the military is just a reflection of

society. generals are writing be these s where they're not taking a side saying all liveses matter and you've got to be hard on rievan security. they're saying we supportcece constitution, the right to protest, these are legitimate p grievance, there's a long history of racism in america it is systemic bututmi we need to better and change not just for civilians we're protecting but for our own kind, for the military which are heavily e populated with minorities. so i think that's one way you'll see change that's lasting in ta because of these events.i >>have a claudia, tallahassee, florida. >> e yes, i have a problem with the president equating people who vandalize buildings that probably have heavy insurance i and equating those people to the

taliban and isis like sending in american troops to kill them, t quell them. ign that is ridiculous.rtance that is un-american. how can you ignore the hijack importance ofed protests but quw that protest when it's hijacked. by lootersrs and people who , any vandalize? >> i'll let you go there, tallahassee. claudia, thank you for that. she kevin baron, any final thoughts? >> yeah, on that i think she's right. and that's the frustration many have and that's the story frankly we journalists are and following. the difference between trump ordering troops and the white house and officials saying those troops and national guard are there to protect the right to protest and to stop and protect any violence on property or elyt people. it's one thing to sayhaay night. it's another thing to see it.see and unfortunately that monday

night event and others whenaftep those security services forcibl. stopping demonstrations even, you know, after curfew, for example, and just marching righ through, well, you know, you got to walk the walk, talk the talkn it didn't match the rhetoric s g what they're saying. prote i think it's changed a little bit. last night i saw lots of images acrass the country again of set peaceful leprotests, people singing. i think it was in maybe seattle even lifted their curfew because the protests were so peaceful r they didn't want to disperse doi them.de that's a real change for the hig positive i think for everyone, and hopefully we're on the downside, the backside of this whole thing andur was violence t really indecline. >> and our washington journal listeners andnd viewers can watch -- can follow continued coverage at defenseone.com. we appreciate you being with us this morning. >> thanks have having me on.

i appreciate the time. >> tonight on american history tv a look at the american revolution beginning with park ranger and author on boston's role in the origins of the revolutionary war. that's followed by a discussion of revolutionary war clothing and how american tailors impacted the era. then the origins of the american revolution. a number of historians offer their thoughts on how it started. watch american history tv tonight and over the weekend on c-span 3. up next, testimony from veterans affairs secretary robert wilke and how the cboe pandemic has affected the budget need for veterans affairs. he spoke with the veterans affairs committee.