>> hello, i'm carla hayden. as many of you know and have experienced this week, our country is facing many many challenges. the continuing struggle for human rights, civil rights and freedoms goes back to our founding. 's cultural institutions like libraries and museums are offering historical context, but also reexamining and continuing to look at how we present information and history to our republic, and making sure that we are part of the solution on the road, and not part of the problem. i am honored tonight, and today, to be joined by the secretary

of the smithsonian institution, dr. lonnie bunch. he is also and was the founding director of the national musicians museum of african american history and culture and, as a librarian, my first purchase, very recently, was online, his new book, a fools errand, creating the national museum of african american history and culture in the age of bush, obama, and trump. we appreciate you, doctor bunch, for being with us today, and we have a lot of things we would like to cover. i hope you feel free to ask me a few questions, but i really know that people have been very interested in your perspective on what is going on, and when

we planned this, we had the health crisis that was going on. since that time, another crisis. and movement. you released a statement although it will be a monumental task, the past is replete with examples of ordinary people working together to overcome seemingly insurmountable challenges. history is a guide for a better future and it demonstrates that we can become a better society, but only if we collectively demanded from each other and from institutions responsible for administering justice. why do you think it was important for the public at this time to hear from cultural leaders like yourself? >> i would argue that the library of congress, the smithsonian, cultural institutions are the glue that

holds the culture together. they look to people for trust and guidance. and i thought it was really important to use that trust to help people find ways to understand this moment, to find some optimism, maybe some hope. but at the very least, challenge them to say, this is a moment where we cannot just say, we had 1 million of these in the past and this too shall pass. rather, i was hoping to say, this is a time to be able to have a tipping point in america, where we can really come together as a country and address what has always been the great chasm -- race and institutional racism. >> you said always been. does that really -- i've heard you talk about the need to not erase history, but to embrace it and look at it to understand what is going on. >> i think that just like you

do, the path is such a valuable tool, but on the one hand, people say this is a unique moment. it is a valuable it's a unique characteristic but not a unique moment. someone goes to the sense of loss of enslavement or one looks at the lynchings that went on in the 20th century or the riots that destroyed places like the black town in tulsa, oklahoma about 100 years ago. what you see, is a constant struggle between democracy and fairness, and discrimination and violence to enforce that. this is part of a long history that you and i could name so many names of bodies, of people who are not here because they ran a foul of the criminal justice system and racism in this country. what i also wanted people to understand is, that this is a moment where you are seeing things a little different.

you are seeing, not only a multi racial group of people protesting to help people understand that this is not a black problem, it is an american problem. then, you are also seeing at least for me, the first time seeing police chiefs, police officers saying wait a minute. that was wrong. there is a kind of tipping point where people come together and recognize that the past should give you some hope. if people could work together to find the naacp, or work together to end slavery, and we can work together to begin to address this as well. so i find hope in history, not only optimism, but i find hope in history. you must feel the same way, based on what you are doing at the library of congress. >> that hope from history by the hope, comes from sometimes seen that positive things did

come out of very negative situations. when you think about the naacp and 1919, what was going on there and why things were happening. that is the hope. >> i think that in some ways, one of the strength of looking back in history is to realize that in many places where the country became fair, many places where the country began to live up to its state of ideals, it was because of african american experiences. and was the end of slavery, it helped redefine and expand our notions of citizenship. in essence, what you see is a community that believed in america. i think the great strength now is to draw from the strength of the past, and recognized that we can struggle together and make changes, but recognize

that this is not a sprint. it is a marathon. >> in your book, you mentioned the concept of african american history being american history, and how you were really able to weave that into discussions about what that museum should be. >> i thought it was really important. when people ask if i should come back and around the museum, i thought because we have 50 years of scholarship from franklin and the boys and all of these wonderful young scholars, i realize that african american history was too important to just be in the hands of the african american community. it had lessons for all americans and it profoundly shaped everything and who we are. if you look at every presidential election, at some

point, race was involved. it goes back to the very beginning. what i wanted to do was help people realize that understanding the african american history, is the best way you can understand america and understand yourself. i did not want people to think that this was someone else a story. i wanted you to see this is a quintessential american story and they don't understand themselves without understanding that story. >> do you see that concept materializing now in where we are at this point and seeing the diversity? >> i think that is right. that is what i'm hoping. when you see the civil rights marches and you see an integrated group, but it is overwhelming, overwhelmingly in african american. here, you are seeing a more blended group and that gives me hope, that people are crossing racial lines to begin to recognize that this is a time that we need to address this,

because enough is enough. i'm not naive enough to think the marches are going to change things, but my hope is that this is, that this will begin to create a boil of heat that begins to touch everybody from political leaders of all parts of the country, that corporate communities think about what they can do, but really people like you, leading major institutions can also help us think how do these institutions help a country at a time when it is really in the greatest need? >> what has been inspiring for me is the fact that so many of the people that are part of this now are younger. that they are realizing, oh my goodness, looking back, when you think about john lewis, who was only 21 when he put on that backpack, and marched across that bridge, and now they are

realizing that they can have a role, and just the march of history. i will i want to also ask you about the impact of the image, being able to see things now. we went together to the library of congress, and the museum, to purchase the first known photographs of harriet tubman, and it was used in the film and it gave people a different perspective about her, because we saw her not long after she had done all of the things we had heard in history. when you see the older pictures -- when you see that picture, and frederick douglas, the most photographed person. then back to john lewis and the images that america saw of the violence and the police. can you talk about that role of

seeing things? i >> think in some ways, the greatest strength is the marriage of the written word. good scholarship, good books. whether it's a photograph or an artifact. because what that does, is immediately makes it accessible to people. you see an image and it is transformative. i think your notion, when we went in to see harriet tubman, that is transformative. i normally see images of her as the older woman bent over. it's hard to imagine harriet tuchman, moses leading people to freedom. then you saw that picture and there's a look at her i. it was a style. >> for me, imagery is really what helps history come alive to me. i first got interested in history, looking at all old photographs as a little kid, wondering, what were their lives like?

where they happy? where they treated fairly? for me, photographs and the visual literacy, that we can help america have, it's so important because it builds upon the amazing scholarship of the written word. i have always thought if i ever have one of those formal portraits ever painted, i want a photograph of -- >> i remember those same types of experiences, looking at old photographs, family photographs, and one that has been interesting, and i don't know if you've had this experience recently, of older generations telling you about things that relate to what is happening now. one of the first photographs, i remember being horrified about it and wondering, seeing my mother's brother in a casket. it was a big funeral. as a child we thought, that was

-- i call him my brother, he's a cousin now and a photographer. that was one of his first memories. but it brought back the reason why so many people were in helena arkansas, and that funeral was because he was shot by the white owners of a 1941, i've a grocery store, who shot him because he was attractive to the shop owner's daughter. >> i guess. >> okay? they claimed that he committed suicide and he didn't. and for years, that has been there and my mother and watching the events, she's 88 now, talks about justice and that maybe, finally, you could get that and you have had that experience, i know and looking

back and having older people talk about it. >> it is simply amazing. my mom is 92, so you hear her suddenly look at an image, and she will talk about how a relative of hers was run out of woodland, north carolina. and you suddenly realize it's that imagery that allows those stories to come forth. you might not be able to get people to do that. what moves me about working with you, is it's okay to say how much our personal experiences can shape us. i know that you had these experiences around issues of race and gender. that have really inspired you, shaped you, angered you, moved you. so i'd be curious, what are the things in your own life that have shaped you to where you are today? >> and you can see, i'm in just one room of my house, and every room, except the restroom, has

reading material, because i am a child of books. i was raised by books. one of my earliest experiences, and i brought it here, seeing myself for the first time in a book. something that i love so much, books and reading. but i never saw any person that looked like me, and that was something. but also, as a person of color, coming from the tradition in this country, of denying people of color the right to read. frederick douglas talks about that so eloquently. once you learn to read, you will be forever free. that has resonated with me. the power. there is a reason why they did not want sleeves to read. there is a reason why you had to limit literacy. >> the ability to imagine a world yet discovered, it's part

of what comes down to reading. as you try to control people, the one thing you don't want them to do is to imagine possibilities. so, like you, i was fascinated by reading as a kid. partly, because i grew up in a neighborhood where, until high school, there were no other black kids in the school. my brother and i went to school by ourselves. it was a town in north jersey, and what i remember is trying to figure out why some people treated me fairly and some people didn't, and reading became my way to do this. it's funny. something happened the other day. literally yesterday. somebody that i went to high school with, sent me a story, he had written about what had happened with us at our high school graduation. he was white and i'm black. we went to a party, and when the mother of the daughter came out, she kicked me out of the party. black people should not be at

the party. i had forgotten about it, and he talked about how that turned him to think about fairness and social justice. in growing up in that town, i think more than anything else, it secured my interest in learning more about anything else, but also simulated stimulated my interest to fight for fairness and you really find yourself saying, how do i do work that helps to make sure everybody gets the opportunities that we have. i think in some ways, it is interesting. we were raised, both of us were taught, going to graduate school, to be objective and step back. but it's the personal that i think gives us both the fire to move forward. >> and in institutions that have been known to present information, to present history. do you mind if i read another part of your book? this is one of my favorites.

one can tell a great deal about a country by what it remembers. by what graces the walls of its museums and went monuments share privileges and placement in parks and central traffic intersections. and -- for generations to come. yeah one learns even more about a nation by what it forgets. what moments of evil, disappointment and defeat are downplayed or eliminated from national america. that part is something that i think we both work on. >> telling the story, right? helping people to remember. i really think that when we look at things like confederate monuments, and how people celebrate that as a southern heritage, i do not have any problem if you do that, if you recognize that one, that

symbolizes traders going against what was the union, and that in essence, what i want people to realize is that when you look at the confederate monuments, they are less about the confederacy and more about how do you preserve segregation and late 19th and early 20th century? for me, history is an opportunity to right some wrongs, make some history more clear, because i think the other thing i learned from you, is that people have, if we give them the right opportunities to learn and educate, people have the capacity to deal with the fickle issues. that, to me, is really part of the challenge of our institutions, which is on the one hand, recognizing these are old institutions that have been shaped by a lot of traditions. but they have a responsibility, i think, to help a country be made better. to help people find truth, help people remember, help people

deal with difficult issues. i think one of the things i love about what you do at the library of congress, is that part of what you are doing is helping people embrace ambiguity. not just look for simple answers to complex questions, but to look at the literature and recognize that it is all about subtlety and nuance, and what a greater country we would be if we understood subtlety, nuance and ambiguity. >> what better person to exemplify that then rosa parks. we joined together, at the smithsonian loaned one of her dresses. she was a seamstress and then we had the photos of her in that dress. in her own hand. you see that she was not this quiet little lady with a person that was tired. she was sick and tired of being -- she was active and to be able

to present that. >> that shows the power of what we can do. we take the story of rosa parks and the prevailing notion was that she was tired and sat down and did not get up. but if you look at her life, being active, fighting against sexual violence against black women being involved in the naacp. suddenly, you see a story that is much richer and in some ways, a story of someone who is much braver than we give her credit for. i love it that we are able to do that together. >> that is where i'm seeing more of an opportunity to have a partnership. to be able to not only have to see the photos of her, but a poll arrowed years later, where she is doing a yoga pose. because she had health problems, because of the hardships that she suffered, and just to show people in all of their glory and all of their doubts.

these great people that we look up to were people. you've done that. in so many ways. in your new role, and it's not new actually. you are coming back home to the smithsonian. >> right. >> how do you see that shaping up? >> i think that building the african american museum is really, it was about giving a gift to america. a gift of understanding itself better through the african-american lens. i'm so proud of all the people that worked to make help that reality, those who worked in the place and share their scholarships and those who shared their collections. then, becoming secretary was really something where i realized that at that stage in my career, there was nothing i needed.

there was nothing i needed. i'm more visible than any historian should be. this was an opportunity to thank the smithsonian for giving me not just a career, but a calling. i have always been struck by something that happened in my family. if you don't mind another family story. >> no i think it's important. >> during the 19 sixties, it was the centennial and the civil war. i was an 11 year old kid, really excited about civil war. i was reading everything i could. one easter, we were going from my home new jersey to visit my mother's family in north carolina. as we got into saint petersburg, i saw museums and civil war battlefields and i said to my that, can we stop? this is great! he had this excuse. i have to go 20 miles to get gas, or whatever. on the way back, we go right past, but instead of dragging straight to new jersey, he pulled in front of the

smithsonian and he said, here is a place where you can understand yourself, your path, your history, in a way that is fair, but as a way that we will not be judged by the color of your skin. i never forgot what that smithsonian meant. a place of possibility for a ten or 11 year old kid. being secretary was really my way to thank the smithsonian for giving me a place to believe. to believe in the past, to believe in the future. that is why want to make the smithsonian a place that matters to people, not just in traditional ways but in ways that helps them live their lives. >> i have to tell you, that resonates so much with me in terms of the position that i am in now it's library congress. i had taught librarians to get out there. information is power. public libraries in baltimore -- putting up those libraries.

all of that. to be in the largest library in the world that has treasures untold, opening up that to everyone. for scholars, young people, for everyone to open up this wonderful library is a privilege, and i also see it as part of that joy that i had when i went in there and brought bright april. what if we make it all available? i just have to, i know we have to wrap up, and i wish we could keep going. and we will, but i wonder what you think from your perspective as a historian, what do you think will be remembered of 2020? there is so much -- the pandemic -- >> to have a dual pandemic, a virus and racism, that is going to shape the way people are thinking about it. i think people will remember the protests.

they will remember the murder of george floyd. i think that what you will also see is people remembering that they can find hope by coming together. hopefully, by encouraging political leadership and leadership at the local levels, to effect change. i think what you will see when people look back, is a sense of either it's going to be a sense of possibility and hope, or a sense of failed expectations. that this too was another moment that people that exercised over, people who wrote books about it, but it really did not transform. i don't think we know yet which way it's going to go. but i think what i learned is working with people like you who recognize the library of congress. the smithsonian has to be as much about today and tomorrow

as it is about yesterday. that is the power of the institution we are in. >> that is also the challenge when you think about it in this virtual world. what items, what things would you have your curators thinking about collecting from this? i >> right? i think it's like what we did in baltimore. you're going to have to collect social media. what you do is collect the videos that people made of the different demonstrations. what i also think is what needs to happen at this moment is almost like wpa and the slaves narratives. it's an interesting time. figuring out how are there ways, virtually, that we can capture the story so that they will be available for generations down the road? >> and that, we have 836 miles

of shelving. we have manuscripts and all of this, but you are so right. we are looking at, we are talking about a digital future. what we are doing now. how will we make sure that people, 30, 40, 50 years from now, that want to know more about what is happening in this time? so when you think about what has touched you the most about the protests -- i mentioned just seeing the young people and being inspired as someone who is maturing. it is good to know that there are young people. what are some of the things that have been touching you? >> there are things that are optimistic and negative. i think candidly, seeing another black man die made me realize how many black people had their last breath taken by a rope, a bullet, or amy?

i realize on the one hand i'm fortunate. but on the other hand, as a blackmail you never know when your luck will run out. you never know whether you turn left or right what you will run into. this became much more personal than i might have thought. it made me worry about my grandson's future. but the positive is the same thing you took away. that the same people who crossed these lines to save black lives matter. saying that this is not something that is business as usual. it inspires me. i worry that during the sixties when there were all these marches, you had things like the student nonviolent coordinating committee to make sure that they had an impact for their strategic vision. that is what is missing to me right now. i am unbelievably hopeful, watching people say, like links

in cubes said, let america be america. and we will be on the streets to help make that happen. >> and we will be making sure that we will preserve it and capture it and make it available so that if and hopefully the future will be brighter. i have to end on a personal one for me to. i mentioned my mom. she said, you know, maybe we could finally get a headstone for jimmy. because her mother never got to do that. he died of a heartbreak basically. maybe we can go and do that. i said okay, that is good. >> that gave me chills. >> that's what she said. maybe justice for jimmy. i want to thank you so much. i know this is a trying time,

but just for the people who have joined us, we both have websites. pelosi .gov for the library of congress, and there is the smithsonian institution, dot edu. there's so many things because the smithsonian has even started a special portal talking about race. >> the american history museum has this portal. the museum of african american history and culture. here are the things that help you talk about race. you have scholars and experts who can talk to. in some ways, like you, we want both of these institutions to be a value, to be relevant, to fulfill their mission of collecting and remembering and give people tools to live their lives. i think that is what we both want to do. >> i could not have had a better partner. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank, you and thank everyone. take care. >> take care.

their citizens, i'm a new yorker. here i passed >> that's edith roosevelt, she was matriarch to a rambunctious family and her husband, they had a roosevelt was as outgoing as he was private. as first lady, she was a ground breaking manager of the white house, overseeing a major renovation that at/çeí the west wing, separating the family quarters from the presidents offices for the first time. good evening and welcome to c-span's series, first lady's influence and influence. it throws will usher in season to end the 20th century. we have twhi