she also describes the culture shock she experienced as a californian attending college in virginia. watch tonight beginning at 8:00 eastern. enjoy american history tv this week and every weekend on c-spa c-span3. thomas jefferson interpreter bill barker and brandon dill ladillard discuss how jefferson's life changed over the decades. the conversation draws on mr. marker's career at independence hall, colonial williamsburg, and monticello. thomas jefferson's monticello recorded this program and provided the video. good afternoon. my name is is brandon dillard and i'm the manager of historic interpretation here at monticel monticello. you might recognize my voice because in previous livestreams i'm usually the guy behind the camera and i'm reading questions from our audience as they come

in so that we can directly engage with you while we're talking to our first person interpreter/actor, bill barker, who portrays thomas jefferson. we wanted to do something a little bit different this week. given the national conversation and given events all around us, we know that 2020 has been a challenging year. monticello has been closed for months. we re-opened this weekend, due to a global pandemic. in recent weeks in the united states, millions of people all over the country are actively fighting for equity against different forms of racial injustice, whether it's racially motivated police violence or racially motivated monuments and memories. it's a conversation that we must engage in, and working here at

monticello, we are a site of memory. monticello is a plantation where over 400 people were enslaved. today we decided to have a conversation, we would do something that we haven't done and i'm sure everyone knows this, that when you tune in you're not actually talking to thomas jefferson. you are talking to again, as i said, my friend bill who portrays thomas jefferson and bill is going to join us today. when he does so he'll be in character. we talked about this before, we would go live, as to how we would best address the subject and we thought perhaps a good idea would be to talk about the challenge of interpreting slavery explicitly and

obviously bill and i, when we talk about this, we recognize that we are both white men, and we're talking about something that greatly impacts people of color and black americans. this friday's juneteenth which marks a day of remembrance in this country for the end of slavery, and it's a day that all americans should celebrate in knowing that this is an institution that legally ended, but that institution legally ending was not the end of its legacies. slavery has always existed and slavery still exists, but the kind of slavery that existed at monticello, race-based slavery that developed through the trantrans

atlantic slave trade and into the early united states was inextricably intertwined with developing concepts of race. the lasting legacies of which we still struggle today and the systems that we're still trying to dismantle. we believe, bill and i, that we must engage this conversation and monticello is engaging this conversation and inviting others to do the same. i'll still be accepting questions online and bill and i will answer those as best we can, but today we believe we're going to use this time to invite you all to join us in this in understanding that we do have privilege as white men and as such, a duty to engage in a conversation about all of our shared pasts and help us understand how the history of the past determines who we are today.

so, bill, i think we should start with just a little explanation of what a first-person interpreter is. so can you tell us, what does a first-person interpreter do and what do you do at monticello.? >> well, thank you, brandon and thank all of you for coming to talk about -- to speak with and importantly, listen to because in my vocation, it is an element of theater. you cannot extricate it from theater and what is so important to realize in our conversation, this is no mere intermission of a show. this is no on track. this is the reality of our times

and of past times and this conversation continues. and in my capacity as a historic interpreter, the theater is, as shakespeare said, and the theater is to spark and to provoke the mind of the king, to help us look at ourselves. shakespeare in particular succeeds in his plays to hold up a mirror in which we can see our human nature, and it's nonetheless in historic interpretation. so my vocation in interpreting thomas jefferson and that has been and what i have done for nearly 40 years is to put on the vestments and also the theater of mr. jefferson to help us think and to help us better understand our past and particularly who we are as americans and to engage that

conversation certainly as he would want. >> so you've made reference that you've done this for a number of years and our topic today about interpreting slavery, talking about slavery, it is so relevant, but it is an ongoing part of conversations at monticello for a long time at historic sites throughout the world. can you tell us a little bit about how it's changed from your perspective over the years, this interpretation of slavery? >> yes. we're talking about it now. we have been talking about it for a few years but not for the 40 years of which i've been involved. imagine, i'm a child of the '60s so i grew up talking about this. we would go in and out of it and in and out of it but at historic sites since i began this in independence hall in

philadelphia, yes, was there mention of slavery, but it was not engaged thoroughly, and i'm going back 40 years. when i went to colonial williamsburg in the spring of 1993, williamsburg had already embarked for several years and there was the african-american interpretive group at colonial williamsburg, and i welcome that opportunity to work with them to better explain the story and enact the story of our history. monticello had embarked at the same time upon speaking on slavery and continues as colonial williamsburg and many other living history museums and national historic sites across our country, continues to speak about this more and more, engage this, but particularly what's so important, to acknowledge it, to

acknowledge it and struggle with it. we need to struggle with this. >> a first-person interpreter is limited to the character of the time period that they must portray and actually in conversations preparing for this week one of the things that you and i discussed is a great example, juneteenth, is something that thomas jefferson during his life would know nothing about. so can you talk for just a minute about the challenges of staying in character when talking about slavery in particular? >> the big challenge in interpreting thomas jefferson would be for a visitor to say mr. jefferson, what do you think about juneteenth? and for mr. jefferson to reply,

what is juneteenth, and this allows the visitor, the guest to explain it to him. here is a wonderful opportunity for our present to speak to our past and to come to an understanding that mr. jefferson learns from the future and with the hope that the future will learn, well, if you are referring to a time in which we've finally ended slavery, what did it take then for that to come about? would mr. jefferson want to know what it took for that to come about? we know that and what i can talk about in persona are his predictions, what could happen. he did make statements in his letters and it's my job to interpret those letters and the conversations we know he had and the interactions with those of his period, but it becomes even more a struggle for him as it took for us to ponder what it

took and then for mr. jefferson to understand what it continues to take. >> you've kind of answered a little bit with that question. it makes me think about this, though, given the limitations of staying in character. there are strategies, of course, that you all implement to get more complete messages across and i work as an interpreter but not as a first-person interpreter. so i think that people would call me a tour guide but not someone who addresses in a costume or is bound by the times. could you share some strategies with us about how you bridge that gap? >> i think the strategies for helping us to better understand where we have been rest in the reiteration and the continued conversation about our nation's founding principles.

i always prefer to introduce mr. jefferson as writing what george washington referred to as the promise and the declaration of american independence as something that does not include anything new or original, that it is the representation of the accumulation of a man's eternal history in the struggle for liberty. now, that is considered man's eternal struggle for liberty in jefferson's time that has gone on, and the fact that our promise, our declaration in an expression of the american mind submits these facts to a candid world. one of my strategies in that introduction is to remind people that we achieved the first nation in the history of man founded upon principle and not upon monarchy, not upon

nobility, land and gentry, air is toksy, principles of that every individual is entitled to, is that the experience in his day? no, it is not, but he wrote it and it's our founding principle. and it's our blueprint from which we can continue to struggle and have the conversation and pursue that equality. i remind people as a strategy that we brought 13 individual nations together to remind us that these former colonies were nations unto themselves with differences of religious opinion in one different from another, with slavery, the overwhelming experience in many but not in others, that we

brought this all together e pluribus unum that two heads are better than one, three heads are better than two, and that's an ancient principle of unity and to help us understand that egalitarianism, providing an equal opportunity, is not a socialism, it's an equal opportunity. it's an opportunity for everyone to be able to achieve the pursuit of their happiness, to be happy, and to understand that freedom is not free. it requires an eternal vigilance in order to reflect upon these founding principles. so those are initial strategies that i try to engage in the very beginning and quite honestly the conversation will continue. >> so we are starting to get some questions in from the audience. this is a great one.

student groups are by far the most diverse, ethnically, racially, economically different groups that have said monticello, and we see in normal times, we see tens of thousands of students each year. bridget from online wants to know how you go about addressing sensitive topics like slavery when you're interpreting for a younger audience and particularly school-age children? >> it's always been my experience to realize that the young are very sensitive to begin with and have a great common sense and understanding. out of the mouth of babes. and where better to engage this conversation if only to begin it with many who have been thinking about it, that they can continue to think about it and can continue to engage it. for a student to ask mr.

jefferson about slavery opens the door. it's very sincere, it's very innocent and it's obvious and we approach it and we speak about it. we speak with and we listen to. i welcome students and i've been going out to schools for more than 40 years and i can tell you that it is the most satisfying work, particularly when greeting them here at monticello as i was able to do it here with colonial williamsburg and this is how we touch our past. this is our we prepare our future, so these are opportunities in the persona in our past to speak with the future. >> this one is interesting. so, zach wants to know, do you find people assume your views are thomas jefferson's views? is it hard for people to differentiate between the two of you? and i have a followup, do

you ever wish you could answer as bill instead of thomas jefferson? >> let me answer the second part. of course i wish i could answer as bill but in my persona, i'm in my job. i'm in my vidocation, i'm in my duty to teach history, to interpret history, but certainly not to justify mr. jefferson's opinions. i expose his opinions. i speak about his opinion, but i also speak about his achievements and i speak about his vision, and most importantly, too, to reveal that he changed his mind as he grew older to help us understand we all change our minds as we grow older. you read jefferson and he'll let you know, i once thought this, i now think that. it's helped me to keep in touch with him and particularly to

help me better understand how day to day what we meet and what challenges us challenges preconceived ideas. >> i think that this is a very challenging one and a couple of people have asked questions that relate to it, but you just opened the door to it saying it's not your job to justify jefferson's writings. john asked about notes on the state of virginia and any scholar of jefferson knows that where he describes his opinions to race is the crucial element to understanding slavery and you made me think of this earlier as well when you said it's changed the way that you talk about slavery and even my short time

in the field, i've only done this for ten years, and the way that we talk about race in the public discourse has changed. ten years ago, systemic racism and understanding white privilege, these were not broadly known conversations outside of academic discourse. let's talk for a minute about notes on the state of virginia. let's talk about another point that someone brings up which is a complicated question, cash, talking about how as public historians we can help the 21st century audience who finds this as morally abhorrent and still understand the context for it. i think that's race, and i think it's clear in the notes of the state of virginia but can you talk a bit about how jefferson would write about these things without justifying what jefferson wrote. >> if someone -- and they have many times -- asked mr. jefferson about his notes on the state of virginia, you will certainly see a remorse to begin with.

you will certainly see an effort perhaps to dodge speaking any further about the question, but he's not going to dodge it. he's going to approach it, and as he later does in life, he's going to apologize for it. he does this in a letter to henry gregoire who becomes a very well known french abolitionist. it is in a letter jefferson writes february of 1809, but even this remark is not meant to be an excuse. it's a revelation of the struggles that mr. jefferson was going through as we continue to go through when we read these notes. a further revelation is the fact that we know these now. we know jefferson's notes on the virginians. he did not write them to be published extensively. he wrote the notes collectively

in an answer to a questionnaire that was put out to the colony of virginia. they were questionnaires to be put out to the colony so the french could be better aware of information animal, vegetable and mineral, particularly to investing in the american revolution. so jefferson had accumulated notes already and he gathered these all together when he went to france and there, in france, he had them published in french privately and handed them out to gentlemen of scientific curiosity. quite naturally, it got out of their hands. it was published and there it was. so there's a background. it's not a justification for them. it's a revelation of them. a further revelation within these notes, jefferson makes bold statements not only about race but also religion.

he makes bold statements about habits and customs. he makes bold statements about particular proper names that he alone has subscribe to elements in nature of flora and fauna. he answers much of these, the questions from demarlboro, and he answers them with questions, too. so here is the scientist, here is the revelation of the scientist who writes very early on and i believe it's in notes be so bold to question everything. follow truth wherever it should lead us. and again, these are not justifications. they're revelations of this information. and we struggle with it as we should, and he did, and we try to reconcile it.

can it be reconciled? i've never been able to. >> we just got a comment that i think is very relevant to what you just said and the conversation at hand and i'll preface it by saying this is an emotionally charged subject for a lot of people, and i can offer the proof of it through our facebook comments. people have strong feelings about this and those feelings run across the board and are particularly addressed towards this history and the way that we talk about this history. some people clearly say that we are trying to tear down the history of a great man by remembering slavery. others say that we're trying to celebrate a singular narrative

of a white man and we welcome that discourse, but dylan asked this question and i think this is very pertinent for you, when you are out there, you can see these emotions in people. how do you help mitigate that while you're in character, helping people, audience members grapple with their own emotions? >> i only hesitate because i'm looking for the word and i use it frequently in persona. this is the duty of an american citizen. it's our duty. it's we the people who hold the reins of our government. we the people who are responsible for the american conversation. this is exactly the foundation upon which the american revolution was engaged as the british will want to play on the surrender field at yorktown.

the event that turned the world upside down. the recognition by john lock and others that a monarch is not put on the throne by divine right. the model of the royal family in great britain is -- you can still see it cut on the coat of arms on the governor's palace in colonial williamsburg. god is my right, i am here by divine right. no, it is the people -- the people from which the leader then emanates. if there were no people the government would govern over no one. so it is the people who not only provide the purpose but the power for government. this is our conversation. it always has been our conversation, and it -- historiology will tend to it one way in a particular period, it

will tend to it in another and we will continue to revolve with this and in my opinion, evolve, to be able to work this out and that is -- that is my hope. that's why i continue to do this. retirement is not a word in my vocabulary, nor was it in mr. jefferson's vocabulary. he left 40 years of service to devote his time to a university and would that he could have succeeded as well in ending slavery all together and we know that the coles brothers approached him on that, and what did he reply to them as he entered his eighth decade? this is on the shoulders of your generation, the young generation. again, it is no excuse and it is a revelation of his thought upon the subject. so again, i think this is our duty and i think this is one of necessity, we must do as people hold the reins of government and

thank heaven we have a system of government in our constitution where george washington referred to as the guarantee of our promise, the declaration of american independence, a system of government, the first line of which is we, the people. what a wonderful honor and what a wonderful obligation, in my opinion. >> you spoke there about the history of history, the idea that history is a set of facts. it's not exactly right and we learn -- the more we learn about history the more we learn that history almost says as much about the times in which it is written as the times in which it is trying to describe or understand. there is an aspect of jefferson's history that i think we should definitely address when it comes to talking about slavery and it is one of the reasons why jefferson's history and the history of monticello is

such a compelling lens and that is, of course, the fact that jefferson fathered children with a woman who he owned as property. monticello has for years addressed what this relationship between sally hemings and thomas jefferson meant, so much so that we grapple over the use of the term relationship. we talk about what it means. we talk about how any kind of conversation about consent between a master and a slave could exist and how we'll never actually know anything about the feelings one way or another, but this conversation and the recognition of jefferson as hemings' children's father happened 22 years ago. there was a dna study. this dna study did not prove that thomas jefferson was the father and no one ever claimed that it did.

what the dna study did was it provided a significant data point, a piece of corroboratory evidence with which historians change their perspective. i want to know what it was like for you because you were interpreting thomas jefferson at the time. could you talk for a minute about how that news spread and what people's reactions were. >> well, i can tell you that i distinctly remember in september of 1997 there was a seminar held here at monticello and actually the historians and interpreters of jefferson's sites, independence hall, the jefferson memorial, let's see, the national park service was

represented also. williamsburg was there. i was there, as well. and in our collective conversation it was mentioned that the dna study in the process for several years was soon to be revealed in its final statement. so we want you to understand this, that this is going come about in our studies and in our conversation to be very, very effective and we all wondered when. and it came out, many of you may recall, on the front page of the "washington post" sunday edition and it was i think the first sunday in november 1997. i was walking to the capitol belling in williamsburg to have a program and a number of people were gathered around saying mr. jefferson, have you seen this, have you seen this? i read it and i remember saying well, i will follow science

wherever it should lead us as the first-person interpreted response to something like that and wondering what would this lead to in that group of people there. well, what it led to was someone making a remark that was politically explosive and there then began an engagement amongst all of those people there and they forgot mr. jefferson was part of it and i was able to turn around and go off to my program. that was the beginning. it has never ended and we know mr. jefferson never said anything about it, but what i just mentioned, a revelation, i will follow science wherever it should lead us, is what has brought us further into this conversation. where will science go from here and beyond? dna is one of the most remarkable elements of science that still continues in its

further perfection. it is extraordinary and what does it show? something that jefferson and many others were discussing in his day. aren't we all interrelated? are we all, as the natives will want to suggest, a family of men across the globe? there are many who are cautious to allow their dna to be taken. i find it the most marvelous thing to help us understand better that we're all connected. i even question race. we're all one race. >> that's a great segue way actually for this next question because it is true, and this is something that we often see with visitors to monticello, this conversation about race and what does race mean and a dna test, it can't tell you your race, right, because race is not scientifically based.

race is a social construct. what does that mean, right? it means that race is created by human beings to categorize other human beings, and of course that happened during the transatlantic slave trade. now when we look at that and we have that conversation, we can easily say race does not exist scientifically, but politically it very much does and the realities of how people are treated because of the color of their skin are different. i've known about you and the work that you do for years, since i started in this, and you are very well respected, and so i knew that you'd done a lot of reading and a lot of studying, but when you came here and started working with us i was blown away at the amount of

knowledge that you have, and so you've been a student of the history for a long time. people ask this and so i'll ask you so just address it. slavery and racism today, are they connected? >> they certainly are. of course they are. i remind people in persona that though jefferson's paternal line had been settled in virginia from the early 17th century, though his maternal line is settled in virginia in the mid-17th century that that does not make mr. jefferson any the more american than those who continue to arrive here to make for a better life for themselves and their families. i hope people remember that

though we were colonies of england, it was not only the englishmen coming here, that many escaping the kingdoms of the italys, the kingdoms of the germanys -- in fact, jefferson writes when he's sailing down the ryne to mr. madison, from everything that i now see which i have seen in my native land, i believe that the germans make up a greater portion of the population. in virginia, jefferson should have thought for a moment, well, in williamsburg that i've known for 20 years, every other face on the duke of gloucester street is african-american, that the great population of virginia is nearly 50% african-american at the time that he is going to write the declaration of american independence. so i remind people as we talk about when their ancestors have

arrived, and what about the african-american? did not the first ship bearing african-americans sail into the chesapeake bay in 1619 and that was not of their own free will and volition? they were slaves and they had been here many, many generations already, but the point of the matter is. in the founding of the nation we began to realize before the american revolution began that we are becoming more and more and the and they answer american and then the problem begins because who are representing americans? the white male freeholder. 21 years of age or older. it's jefferson. that's his society. that is what is governing our

new nation and continues to govern our nation even though we have 22 states before jefferson passes away, generally throughout the country it is the white male freeholder, and he has the vote and he has the say. you look at our history and you see that the admitting of states and it's a result of the northwest ordinance finds one from the north, but the next one is going to come from the south and the one after that from the north and the next one from the south and this continues, of course, until we've got a question we have to grapple with admitting the north of massachusetts known as the maine and missouri which falls distinctly in the center of the west 3630. so how do we balance this? what are we going to do? well, who is going to provide the answer? the white male freeholder, compromising, kicking the can,

and that's when, as we began this conversation, we know jefferson wrote to one of the first two senators in maine, holmes, i think it's jonathan holmes, this could be a fire bell in the night. i fear i do not see that speck on our horizon. we know that part and very few of us know the second part. i thank my creator i will not have to live and see it because he knows all too well i will spend the rest of my days weeping over the neglect of the grandsons who have forgotten entirely the principles in our declaration. that's one generation between the founding fathers and those who contend at gettysburg. one generation. it's an ancient adage jefferson knew well, man is always one generation removed from b barbarrism. if you forget, you fall backward. what if we had had a universal system of education before jefferson passed away where the child of massachusetts is well

in virginia and the child in the missouri territory, let alone the child in georgia and connecticut could all be learning these founding principles at the same time, grappling and understanding but wait a minute, it's still only the white male freeholder. women certainly should not be allowed a vote. yes, systemic racism is still with us despite everyone having that opportunity to vote, or do and does everyone have that opportunity and freely able to attend to it. >> this ongoing conversation and the national conversation as well, it reminds me of something james baldwin wrote 60 years ago. this country is celebrating the

end of the civil war 100 years too soon, celebrating 100 years after the war. 100 years too soon. and you're talking about this long, ongoing struggle and it is so broad and it impacts many people different ways and women and american indian people and people of color and all of these conversations, poor people, people who don't own their own land, they intersect in different ways and it's an ongoing conversation that i hope we continue to have. we have time for one last question today, and i think that it's one that applies very much. what's your hope for historic sites and interpreters like yourself? what role can you play in this conversation moving forward? >> reminding us of who we are as americans. reminding us of that.

you made this statement earlier. this is an emotional conversation and it ought to be an emotional conversation because being an american is the most wonderful experience if you have -- if you have all of those rights which you are entitled to under nature and nature's god to pursue your happiness. where else in the history of the world? that's why we are people with so many who continue to come here, and if you want to feel the emotion even more please attend to a naturalization ceremony. monticello continues to offer that. poplar forest offers that and listen to the people who raise their right hand and continues

to forego any allegiance that they should somehow take up arms against the nation of their birth and and then realize what they are learning about history and particularly of slavery is already our charge since we started this nation and that has been the pursuit of national historic sites to remind us of this great honor as an american and to remind us of our duty to continue to struggle with it and to make for a more perfect union. >> thank you, bill. and thank you all for joining us today, and i'd like to close by saying that this conversation is pertinent to us at monticello and it's pertinent to the world and monticello itself tries to foster these dialogues. we invite you to join us in these conversations. we've opened again to the public and we hope that in coming

months we'll see some better changes, some normalcy return to our country as we advance hopefully through scientific defense against this disease, and we also hope to foster this kind of civic engagement that is so essential to self-governance and a fight for equity, and we believe that monticello is a place that can allow that because of exactly what it is. the home of the man who said all men are created equal, who net owned human beings. it's a lens through which we can understand how this can exist based on the highest ideals of freedom and equality while being created on some of the most devastating realities of american indian removal of enslavement of people of african-american descent and this continuing fight for equity, equality and for justice

and it is most american and the active participation in our governance through civil discourse and through protest and that's also a duty. ♪ you're watching american history tv, every weekend on c-span3, explore our nation's past. c-span3 created by america's television company as a public service and brought to you today by your television provider. weeknights this month, we're featuring american history tv programs as a preview of what's available every weekend on c-span3. tonight oral histories with foot soldiers from the 1960s civil rights movement beginning with gloria grinel who

participated in the lunch counter sit-in protests during her time as a student at virginia union university. she also describes the culture shock she experienced as a californian attending college in virginia. watch tonight beginning at 8:00 eastern. enjoy american history tv this week and every weekend on c-span3. >> next, smithsonian institution secretary lonnie bunch and philanthropist david rubenstein discuss the role of slavery in antebellum in washington d.c. the white house historical association hosted this event at historic st. john's church in lafayette square at the white house with the slavery and the president's neighborhood. >> as we begin tonight's program please welcome the 15th rector of st. john's church, reverend rob fisher. [ applause ] >> welcome, good evening. my name is rob fisher.