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>> you're looking at some of the images from the 1884 election and listening to songs in support of james g. blaine of maine and his running mate, john logan. tonight our series continues and we're live in the home of james g. blaine, and since 1920, the official residence of maine's governor. we're inside the blaine house with governor page. >> welcome to maine and welcome to the people's house. mr. blaine is here every day and we see his spirit every evening, because we always say good night to him. >> what is your sense of living -- the house was built many years ago, many people have lived in it over the years, but he really is president in a lot of ways. what have you come to learn about the man by living in his midst? >> he not only was a very strong

supporter and founder of the republican party in maine but a national leader, and started maine on its course to where we are now. and very, very influential both in the press, in state government, federal government. the man was a powerhouse, big-time powerhouse on a national scale and very proud to be honored to be allowed to stay here and be a steward of the house for the next four years. >> as governors grow, you probably have the best commute in america because it's right across the street from the capital building. >> it's great. if he was here today, i would ask him to put a tunnel under the road.7jví >> and maybe better air-conditioning. we're pleased to be here tonight to learn more about james g. blaine. i know for many people he has really faded into the pages of history, but we're going to learn more about the man who

brought the republican party to your state, and your state. thanks for hosting us. >> thank you. again, welcome to the state house. >> we're going to learn more about james g. blaine's america and about the republican party he was so influential in bringing to this state. we're going to be moving into the reception room here at the governor's mansion. two guests are waiting for me and they will be my guests throughout the program. while we're getting set up in there, i'll show you a clip from a roundtable discussion that c-span hosted. richard smith talks about james g. blaine and his times. we'll see you in just a minute or so. >> 1884 against cleveland. and before that, he ran for the republican nomination. ironically, in 1876, it was blaine who prevented ulysses grant from coming back -- or 1880, it was blaine who prevented ulysses grant coming back for a second term.

>> besides him and chester arthur -- >> and ben harrison. he was secretary of state under three presidents. >> what else did he do? >> he was in congress, he was speaker of the house, he was a very effective, iron-willed speaker. >> he changed some of the rules in the house. i'm not sure exactly which rules they are. it seems to me speaker of the house are always changing rules somewhat to their advantage. but a smart, capable guy but corrupt, probably. >> remember, this was the period after the civil war when congress was much more central, much more potent than it had been. the action against the executive had set in. to be a speaker of the house, to be a power of congress in the 1870s, 1880s meant a lot more than it perhaps would today. >> buie kmr. buchanan, do you h

something to say? >> if he had run, how would things have changed? >> i think he would have been better than lincoln because he was assertive, he had intellectual heft. he had a lot of talent. and i think once he had actually achieved -- people are consumed by -- they lust after the presidency. it's a warping malignancy that they suffer from. if they survive it and they win the office, i think blaine is someone like clay -- clay and blaine had a great thing in common. they were both charismatic, polarizing figures who i think in office would have distinguished themselves. >> and, as promised, we are in the reception room at the blaine house. let me introduce you to our two special guests who would be with us for this program.

elizabeth leonard is the chair of the history department and is an expert on the civil war region era of history. let me have you set the stage for us about mid-1880s america. we're 20 years past the civil war. what was the country like at that time as we're going into this election in which he was a contender? >> i would start by saying that we're a long ways past the civil war in many ways, and i think that's indicated by the fact that there is going to be a democratic president that is elected that year. and that would have been unthinkable just a short time before that. so that's one thing to say. >> why would it have been unthinkable? >> because the republicans were the winners of the war and they had controlled the government for a long time, and they had controlled reconstruction, and it feels to many people like a handoff to the south to let the democrats come into the white house. >> i'm going to stay with you for a second because maine is your expertise. talk to me about north and south

america -- excuse me, northern and southern states and the difference between the economies. >> the civil war had, of course, crushed the economy in the south, so one of the key goals of reconstruction was to get the economy up and running again, and that was largely on the way to success certainly by the mid-1880s. but it is, i would say, very much on northern terms how the south is being rebuilt. >> james g. blaine was a powerhouse. by 1884 he is known internationally as well as nationally. but maine hadn't been in the union all that long. >> maine had originally been part of massachusetts since the colonial times, became a state in 1820. we went into the union as the 23rd state. we were part of the missouri compromise. missouri was enslaved, maine was free. by the post civil war period, maine had initially suffered a bit of a setback during the civil war. we sent about 70,000 men to the war. about 10,000 had been lost and

our population in that decade of the 1860s actually did not grow. but by the period of the 1884 election, maine was really getting back on its feet. maine has always had wonderful resource-based industries, so we had ice, we had granite, we had textiles, we had shoes, and blaine really was a part of -- and a beneficiary of this very robust economy at the time. >> he contended against the democrat over cleveland who won later on. the republican party that nominated him, this was his third try for the white house, unsuccessful to get even a nomination two times earlier. what was the key to his success in securing the nomination in 1884? >> well, persistence always is part of the story, i suppose, and to continue to try as he did, and he was certainly

recognized as a leading, leading figure in the republican party. there is no question. one of his many nicknames was mr. republican and he was certainly a leading figure. so that would be part of the story. >> he also had some great enemies at the time who were trying to deny him the nomination, so if you could explain the split in the republican party, if you will, please. >> there were a group of moderates. they were called in 1884 the mud lumps, and they were in many cases the intelligence from boston, from new york, from philadelphia. these were folks who believed that blaine was a very corrupt individual. you think, for example, of henry adams who wrote democracy and the senator in democracy who is a dark figure is james g. blaine and modelled upon him. >> obviously this was a very close election. will you tell me about the results? >> i think he only loses by 30

or 40 electoral votes, is that correct? >> yes. and the actual vote himself, 10 million people vote and he loses the election by 25,000 votes nationally, and the key to the loss is the loss of new york state, about a thousand votes. >> and new york state was also the place where a rising young star, theodore roosevelt, was beginning to make his presence known. was he an influence in the outcome of the election? >> he was considered one of the liberals, and indeed that's a trend that began his career in that direction at least into the 1890s. >> what's interesting about the 1884 election that has some he can -- echoes today is they were highly personal. >> especially with andrew jackson, i would say things get really personal. it's a fight about blaine as a corrupt politician, but perhaps cleveland had a child out of

wedlock somewhere in the country and they're slinging nasty mud at each other. >> high school students study in their history books throughout this campaign. first is the title of rum, rosen and rebellion. >> that was a minister named bouchard, and about a week before the election, he gave a talk that blaine was party to in which he denounced the democratic party as the party of rum, romanism and rebellion. rum, prohibition. romanism, the roman catholic church, and rebellion, the south. that phrase was carried quickly by the telegraph and the newspapers all over the country, and it's one of the phrases that apparently contributed to blaine's loss. >> it was a problem that blaine didn't denounce it.

many people thought he had said it, but rather he just didn't denounce it. >> it affected the new york catholic vote in the end? >> absolutely. >> was there an anti-catholic mood in the country in some sectors? >> certainly, even still. there had been since the 1840s when the irish first were emigrating in large numbers, and some say that anti-catholic sentiment went farther back. i think that persisted, too. and the template of the prohibition was rubbing up against that, too. >> you talked about this, mama, where's my pa? what was that about? >> cleveland was not the moral upstanding man that could stand up to the devious blaine.

>> he chose a tactic, which i read, which was not to deny. >> yes, and to pay child support, pay for the child noin the orphanage. >> i also have a book here because obviously the media were partisan at the time, and this was a book that james g. blaine wrote in 20 years of congress which helped set the stage for his campaign, i understand, and this was very well received. >> yes. the first volume, he began to write it in 1881, i think shortly after he was secretary of state for the first time, and the first volume was published in 1884, maybe just in time for the campaign. the second volume didn't appear until 1886. however, it was a highly popular two-volume bestseller, apparently sold tens of thousands of copies, and it was his personal account of his experiences in washington from the time of the civil war to the

early 1880s. >> he made a lot of money from this. >> he did, indeed. >> was it one of the reasons he was able to buy this house, do you know? >> yes, i think it contributed to that. not this house, though. the house that we're now in actually goes back much earlier. in 1862, which is a critical year for him, he's speaker of the main house of representatives, and at the same time he's also running for congress for the first time. and it's in 1862 that he buys this house for $5,000, and he and his wife harriet move in with their family. this house had been built just a few years before in the 1830s by a retired sea captain, and this becomes his great political center for the rest of his life. >> in other words, he hosted many dignitaries here, had lots of meetings here. >> what you have to bear in mind is in 1859, blaine becomes the chair of the republican party in maine.

il it's a post he holds until he becomes secretary of state in 1881. in that 20 or so year period, this house is election central for the republican party in maine as well as the springboard for his national campaigns. >> and if people could see, the state capitol is right outside our windows here. >> the parking lot is across the street. >> it was a very strategic decision to acquire this house. >> ulysses grant visited here, didn't he, and stayed for a couple days. >> he did. >> i want to tell our viewers that we're going to invite you in in a little bit, into the conversation here. with our contenders, we are looking at 14 men, they are all men given the election process in this country, who were candidates for president in their time, did not succeed in the quest for the white house, but still had an outside influence on american history. james g. blaine, someone who i said at the outset was known

internationally but fell in the history books. we'll talk about why he was so well known and how he ended up failing in his bid for the white house. our phone lines are open. we'll take calls until 20 past the hour, and we welcome your questions about history in the gilded age of america and the burgeoning republican party and its place in american life. i mentioned that we are going to be talking about some of shhis other campaigns. i wanted to start with -- go back to 1876, which is the first time he ran for the white house. he was nominated at that time, at the convention, by someone who coined a term the plume knight, a man by the name of jonathan ingersoll. do you know how that speech came about and why it stuck? >> my understanding of that

speech is in connection with with the railroad industry, and that was how ingersoll wanted to introduce him to demonstrate that he wasn't as corrupt as some people thought he was. >> did it speak to something about james g. blaine? >> he seemed to be the kind of person who really had great admirers and tremendous enemies and detractors. i think his admirers thought he was a great hero. >> i think it was kind of a label that stuck, because in the cartoons of the day, both pro and con, the plume knight was a wonderful image to create. there was a lot of interest, still, it was romantic old english literature and he was often shown in an elizabethan costume. >> how important were political cartoons in affecting the electorate in that age? >> they were tremendously important.

this was a period in which pictorial publications a boubou in america for the first time. they were very widespread, very easily produced. in the case of the political journals, you had the judge, which was pro-republican, and p puck, which was pro-democratic. this one comes from the judge. it's a cartoon which shows blaine as this learned, elder statesman in his elizabethan costume, and all around him are letters from states all over the country begging him to become president of the united states. so it's definitely a pro campaign cartoon. >> you told us about the mud lumps in 1884. colorful names for the party back in 1886 include the half breeds and the stalwarts. >> yes.

the half breeds referring to those republicans who did not support ulysses grant, and the stalwarts referring to those who did, if i'm not mistaken. >> exactly. >> which faction was james g. blaine a part of? >> the half breeds? >> what happened in the election that he didn't get nominated? >> the lettemulliken letters we revealed. that involved a stock deal involving one of the railroads and that clouded the picture for him in 1886. >> nomination went to? >> james g. garfield. blaine recognized this was happening at the convention. he actually was -- i'm sorry, actually, in '76 it went to hayes. >> rutherford b. hayes. >> that's right, yes. '80 was garfield. >> he ran again in 1980. were the factions we talked about, the half breeds and the

stalwarts still active in the party then? >> i'm not sure they had those terms anymore, that they were thinking along the same lines. there were still devotions to the party. >> that year garfield did get the nomination. >> thanks to blaine. >> can you explain why? >> since blaine very much wanted to nomination himself, it came after many, many ballots to understand that was not going to happen, so he threw his votes to garfield in order to make sure he would get the election. >> then what happened to him after that? >> he became secretary of state in 1881. >> now, james garfield, of course, was struck by an assassin's bullet in 1881. i read that james g. blaine was actually with him in the train station. >> yes, he was. >> do you know the story? >> i know that he was nearby and they were walking arm in arm. they were very good friends although garfield -- i remember reading something that garfield never quite trusted his friend james blaine, but they were good friends and they were together at that point, and he was

sending him off on the train to head north, i believe, to give some speeches. >> we're going to spend a little bit of time before we get to calls learning more about blaine's character. we've alluded to some of the suggestions about corruption and the like. before we get to that, if he were to walk into this room today, what did he look like, what did he sound like? what were some of the things you know from your study of the man? >> well, i think he was considered a very handsome man, very well dressed, extremely well-spoken. beginning in the late 1850s, of course, he had started out here in augusta as a newspaper editor. got bit by the political bug, and by the late 1850s was very much immersed in emerging in the republican party. he had lots of experience in the late 1850s and late 1860s of stump speaking here in maine. that gave him a lot of practice toward being able to articulate

his ideas as he emerged as a national figure. charismatic, magnetism was another word attached to him. >> i know that my understanding is he had a terrific memory for people's names so that he was the kind of politician who could really make you feel that you knew who you were, what your particular concerns were and so on, and that made him a very powerful figure. >> there is a story told, for example, when he's in the 1884 campaign, he's on a train, and he recognizes a man who he had met as a wounded soldier in a military hospital in washington 20 years before. so that was the kind of memory he had for faces. >> what a gift for a politician. >> right. >> to be able to memorize names and recall them. so he really was able to capitalize on that in his career. >> he was a great politician. >> a master. >> not just in that but also in his mastery of political

tactics? >> mastery of political tactics, mastery of controlling his party and leading his party, i would say. and there is a sense that when he was in congress during those years that he wrote about, which were critical years for the nation, he did have a way of trying to smooth over some of the terrific differences between the sections, and as congress was coming back together to include the south. >> some of the references i read about him, though, mercurial hype condrn hypochondriac? >> certainly. he always complained of being ill, and in the last few years of his life, he was very ill. >> he was also very relentlessly ambitious. i read something that said

nobody yeearned or hungered for the presidency more than james blaine. >> unfortunately, lobbying the railroad stuck with him. it refers to, on the tattooed man, many charges against him. can you tell us about that episode and why it was so significant? >> this comes from puck. it's from 1884. it's a tremendously powerful image in that election in that it is recognized as maybe one of the factors that helped defeat blaine. essentially blaine is shown as a roman senator in the roman senate, and his toga is being lifted from his body. and underneath are tattooed his various political sins. and the senators are looking aghast at his political misdeeds in the field.

in the midst of that crowd are his running mate john logan, general logan, and also a young teddy roosevelt as well. >> the mulligan letters were his defense. was it a successful defense and does history really record whether or not, in fact, he was corrupt? >> i think actually the mulligan letters were the accusation as opposed to being his defense. he tried very hard to make them seem as if they had no value. i read something about his slamming them down on the desk and daring people to read the letters. once he had stolen them from whoever had them in the first place, he went to the hotel and said, let me see the letters, and then he took them with him and disappeared with them and never returned them. so he tried to use them as a way to protect himself. but i don't think there is any clarity that he was not guilty. i think it's pretty clear that he was -- as somebody called him, jay gould's handyman or jay gould's busboy, something like

that, that he was so tight with the railroad industry that it was unlikely that he was innocent. >> and they continued to dog him. in the 1884 campaign, someone published what was believed to be a version of the mulligan letters and a pamphlet, and he never quite resolved that in his career. >> we're going to involve some of our viewers in our discussion of james g. blaine 1880s america. first caller is from roger who is watching us in atlanta. roger, you're on the air. >> hi, how are you tonight? >> great, thank you. >> i just finished reading the recent biography of speaker reed, and for two people who are really powerful in the republican party, they seemed really -- you know, from the same place they seemed really distant. is that true, or was that just a feature of the biography? >> no, i think you're correct. you're mentioning thomas bracket reed who was born in portland in

1839, so he's just a little younger than blaine. went to college and spent his entire public life as a congressman. he rose to be speaker like blaine was also speaker from 1869 to '75. reed served in the late 19th century, the late 188s 0 a0s ano the late 1990s. i think corruption was never a question for reed. reed, i think, was a terribly honest, forthright individual, a person of great integrity, and i think in addition to that, reed is described as a towering figure in the history of the development of the congress, considered by many to be one of the three or four most influential speakers of the house in the history of the house, primarily of his reed's rules, his reform of the house, the recognition that the majority rule had to be counted

and had to be taken into account. >> next caller is jim watching us in san francisco. hi, jim. >> caller: hi. i think you're right on the major issues here. it seems to me the country was going through a major transition from the old money having formalized their ethical values, and then they were transitioning in the country with the railroads into big industrial corporations and raising money for corporations and very different sets of values. so the question is, you know, how could someone that was busy making all the deals and representing wall street maintain any kind of public reputation in this situation? >> certainly i think one answer would be that there was great recognition of his power. since he was so powerful and

could do so much for the party and his other goals, some people could set aside his apparent, very close relationship with the railroads and the industry. >> next is a call from sharon watching us from portland, new york. hi, sharon. >> caller: hi. i wanted to thank c-span for bringing us this wonderful series, and my question is this. did mr. blaine make any money before going into politics, or did he come from a family that had money to begin with? thank you. >> good question. blaine came from a modest background. he was born in pennsylvania. he started out as a teacher, and then he married harriet stanwood from augusta, maine in 1850. there was some question about the marriage, so they were remarried again in 1851. by 1853, they were getting word from her relatives in augusta that there was a business

opportunity for him to come back. and so they relocated to augusta in 1854, and from '54 to '58, blaine was an editor of the journal, which is still published today, and he was found editorially in the kenneback journal, which is augusta's oldest newspaper. >> we're in the study in the blaine house and looking at his desk from that time period. the newspapers of the time, he was both a newspaper man and very involved in party politics. that was common? >> that would have been very common. i think it was one of the primary ways that politicians got the word out about whatever their policies were. certainly there was no television, there was no radio, no internet. newspapers and public speaking

were the ways that politicians operated. >> i think we also have to remember that newspapers were very partisan in those days. >> and shamelessly so. >> shamelessly so, self-admitted. a particular group of individuals would start a newspaper not only just to report the daily news of their community but also to promote a particular political view or a particular political party. >> so was his interest in the republican party -- how did the newspaper business and the republican interests intercept? >> i think it's very interesting. 1854, the year that he comes to augusta and becomes the editor of the kenneback journal and when they founded the newspaper. the newspaper is very much aligned with that rise of the party in maine. >> i'm going to take a telephone call from washington, d.c.

marvin watching us there. >> caller: hi. i find it seriously very fascinating, and i was wondering, how would america be different or how would our country be slightly different, i should say, if mr. blaine had become president? and then also, in terms of why we don't really care about him in the history books, can you guys elaborate further on that? >> great. thank you for watching. how would the country be different if he had been elected? >> i'm not sure the country would be terribly different. i think perhaps mckinley becomes a very pro business president in 1896, and a republican. and blaine maybe would have brought that earlier, you know, change had he become elected in 1884. what do you think? >> the only thing i would add to that is that some scholars have

said that blaine, because of his personal magnetism, would have perhaps been a great sort of figurehead leader for the country, would have projected a kind of image of confidence and of power that had really been lacking in recent presidents in that period, and that he might have been the most important figure perhaps between lincoln and teddy roosevelt. >> and chicago is up next. dave, you're on the air. dave, are you with us? >> caller: yes, i certainly am. i just wanted to mention that, if i'm correct, there was a comment about blaine that thomas nance said that his book "20 years in congress" was also referred to as 20 years on the make. >> well, there is that. >> he was a locomotive engineer,

so the railroad connection has some validity in the day. there is a small town in west virginia, because he was a friend of davis who built the railroad in western pittsburgh and soon western maryland, so he is into the railroad that way. it's one of those things where you get to launch what people say in your favor, because if he did not lose new york because he did not repudiate the statement of one reverend bouchard, he wouldn't have written his book. thank you for taking my call. >> thank you for calling. we talked about "rum, romanism and rebellion." >> the harper's weekly was his forum. every week he created another

fascinating and challenging political cartoon. and he just downright didn't like blaine and excoriated blaine in his cartoons. >> i think there was also another incident in the 1884 campaign where he went out to dinner when he was in new york with this incredibly wealthy bunch of millionaires, maybe all the top millionaires in new york, despite the fact that new york and the country was in a great depression and struggling greatly, and he seemed to be completely blind to the inappropriateness of that. >> that was the very day that he also was witness to reverend bouchard's speech. in the morning he did reverend bouchard, in the evening he did delmonico's restaurant, which was the most fashionable restaurant in new york. and that was immediately reported to the press as balshaz's feast. >> i heard another name, the boodle's feast or something. >> in the house of

representatives during the reproduction, we're in his office again and he's got his study desk there. during the time of reproduction, where was he on the issues of reconstruction? >> it's interesting, my sense was he was largely a moderate which would have helped to make him provide some balm to the nation. they say he was quite successful in taking congress during one of the most difficult time of its history and smoothing a lot of feathers. he was also an early advocate of black suffrage. that was not a moderate position. i think myself -- my sense is that was more opportunistic than anything else. it was important to give blacks the vote so they would vote republican. >> he had a very well-known

enemy with a publicize fight with rosco conkling. who was that? >> i can't really speak to him. >> there was a fight on the floor and we have a clip from the senate historian don ritchie. let's listen. >> at that period the two leading republican politicians were rosco conklin and james blaine. they were dynamic, articulate. just attracted lots of people to them. they could give a speech to a convention and knock the convention out of its minds. they were so terrific on the stump. they were legislative geniuses. they battled in the congress in

the 1870s. they hated each other with an absolute passion. no two political figures hated each other as much as these two. it was partly because they were about the same age, the same am ambition. the rivalry started when they were in the house of representatives in the 1860s. rosco was an enormously proud vain man, very handsome. strutted about in a way that made some of the rest of the members uncomfortable. sort of kept out of the way of this man who never had a good word for anyone. james g. blaine was a young upcoming politician from maine and wasn't afraid to take on

anyone. in the debate in 1866 he launched into one of the most savage attacks. today under the rules you couldn't attack another member that way. it was full of sarcasm and with illusions to the hyperion curl that rosco had. it made all his opponents laugh at him because it was true. it gave ammunition to the editorial cartoonists. from then on they were making him into a turkey or some other figure. >> senate historian don ritchie. what you're looking at is in the blaine house in augusta, maine and blaine's study. that's a lounger from the

capitol that is preserved here in a house that's very much in use. interesting to listen to the characterization there. turkey gobbler strut. was it wildly reported in the press? how did the stories get passed along to us? >> the press was very lively in those days. >> they would sit in the galleries of congress and capture this stuff? >> very much so. the way the information was translated to other newspapers was through the telegraph. stories would be written and they would be telegraphed to other papers and then copies in some cases from other papers. >> american politics was entertainment. there was much about it that was not just about the politics, but the entertainment value it had. great writing and clever phrasing. >> before there were sports teams, there was politics. next is helen.

helen, you're on. >> caller: hi. this is a wonderful series. thank you so much. all my students are watching. they're going to be tested. i hope they pay attention. >> we have teachers here. we're glad you have students involved. >> reporter: i have a question about the blaine amendments. he tried to have amendments to the constitution. many states adopted them. was there an anti-catholic motivation or some other motivation that went along with this? >> more than 20 states have blaine amendments even though not successful on the federal level. >> it might be close to 40. >> it's 37. >> it was an amendment he proposed that would prevent schools from using federal -- religious institutions from using federal funding. >> it's still in place today. >> separation of church and state. >> do you know if it ever had a supreme court challenge?

as it made its way through the courts in these states, we discuss the separation of church and state so often. >> i'm not sure. >> why do we still know about blaine amendments? >> that's an interesting question. maybe because there are individuals constantly trying to fight the separation. >> what motivated him in putting it forward? >> it was 1875. he may have had his eye on the 1876 election and may have been picking an issue. i'm not beyond thinking there was an anti-catholic component to it as well, since it was the catholic organization trying not to pay taxes. >> what was blaine's religion? >> he was a congregationalist. he attended the south parish

church in augusta. there are beautiful tiffany memorial windows to he and his family in that church. >> we have a viewer from d.c. next named ron. you're on the air. >> caller: good evening. hello? >> yes, we can hear you. >> caller: thanks for hosting this series. i have been watching c-span for many years and all the programs have been so great. i want to say thank you first. my question goes to the chinese exclusion act and at that time i believe that most new england republicans were against the chinese exclusion act because they tend to be more liberal and they were not on board with that. blaine started out supporting it with southern democrats. i wonder what gives? why was he not so liberal in

terms of civil rights at that time compared to the other new england republicans? i would like to learn about that. thank you. >> i think, again, it's similar to elizabeth's recent answer on another issue. that is that this is a man who always had his eye on the presidency. in order to win the presidency you needed to do it from a nationwide perspective. he recognized in the west and especially in california that chinese immigration was a major issue and he wanted those votes. >> what i'm taking away from this is this is a man who said he wanted the presidency desperately, that was not ideology driven? >> that's one way to interpret his political career. when i think about the pro black suffrage policy and think at the same time about the chinese

exclusion act policy, i find it hard to bring those two together. if he was racially progressive, then why would he not be racially progressive on the other side? that's an indication i think of an opportunistic approach and very ambitious and whatever wins me the election. >> morristown, new jersey. ed? >> caller: was blaine so obsessed with the presidency that he considered himself a failure for not having attained it? >> that's an interesting question. >> it is. i don't think we get that sense. i think what happened -- he went through the process three times. 1876, 1880, 1884. he was also, you know, kind of dangled in front of him in 1888 and again 1892 even though then he was a very ill man. i think he felt his great

accomplishment was that second term as secretary of state between 1889 and '92. there he was able to play out a lot of his ideas, not only on the national scene but international scene as well. so, i don't think he viewed his career as a failure. >> you're watching c-span's "contender" series. we'll take a short break and tell you more about this series. "the contenders" and our look at the life of james g. blaine continues live in a moment. "the contenders" features profiles of men who ran for president, but lost. for more information g to our website at cspan.org. there you'll find a schedule of the series. bi biographies of the candidates and portions of their speeches

when available. we now return to maine and our discussion on the life of james g. blaine. >> you're looking at a live picture of the james g. blaine house in augusta, maine, the state capitol. it's the official residence of maine's governor since 1920. we're livi we're life inside the governor's mansion to learn more about james g. blaine. won the nomination for presidency in 1884. failed to win, but made a mark on our history. we're taking your telephone calls. let me give you the numbers.

you're welcome to join in. 202-737-0001. 202-737-0002 for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones. tell me more about maine in this time period. we talked about him coming here as a young man. how difficult would it have been to establish himself? how welcoming was it? >> i think he had a very good connection with his wife's family, the stanwoods were a prominent family in augusta. that connection for him to become the editor of "the journal" was made by family and friends who wanted his wife back here and also wanted to make that opportunity available to him as well. he came really at a perfect time in the 1850s. it was the decade right before

the civil war. maine is experiencing a flurry of activity. maine is cresting in its economic and political force at that time. >> last week we were at the home of henry clay. were there connections between blaine and clay? >> there were in the sense he had grown up in a house where clay was idolized. he spent some time in kentucky working as a teacher and made the point of seeing clay whenever he could when he was in kentucky. so, he was a very devote fan. >> i think there's one account that at the age of 17 he attended one of clay's major speeches in 1847 and took copious notes on it. >> our next caller in our discussion about james g. blaine is from indianapolis. this is edward.

hello edward. >> caller: hi, how are you? >> good. >> caller: what was the role of james g. blaine as secretary of sta state? >> he served as secretary of state under garfield, arthur and harrison. with harrison he was really in a wonderful position. he really reached the zenith of his career. he was viewed as powerful if not more powerful than the president. he had free rein to work on projects he wanted to for years. his interest in 1889 was central and south america. he developed, including the idea for the pan-american union and

so on. >> i want to get more into that a little later on. in the study here there are a few pieces connected with abraham lincoln. obviously he was a supported of lincoln. did he know him? >> i don't know that he knew him personally. he had met him. >> yes. of course, he went to congress -- he was elected to congress in 1862. so he would have served in washington from 1863 -- lincoln was assassinated on april 14, 1865. there's a very poignant reminder of his connection with lincoln. there's a little card seven days before lincoln was assassinated. blaine went to lincoln to get permission to visit richmond, virginia which had just fallen, the capitol of the confederacy.

we know he would have had opportunities to meet and talk with lincoln. we also know that he was so an admirer of lincoln that when he built the addition to the house in 1872 for the study, he wanted to use the very same wall paper in his study that lincoln used in his cabinet room. >> we're showing that wall paper to people as we speak. that was the card you saw. i believe it's a replica. >> yes. the original -- >> it's a permission slip to travel to richmond which would have been necessary. waterville, maine, index alexander you're on the air. >> caller: what other attacks did blaine use against cleveland other than he had a child borne out of wedlock? >> that was his primary personal attack against him.

there would have been other political attacks. >> how scandalous would it have been in this time period for someone to have a child out of wedlock? >> it would have been quite scandalous. >> i would think so too. >> to answer that question a little more, there were nuts and bolts issues to the campaign of 1884. one of the strong issues that the republicans and the democrats differed on in the post civil war period was the tariff. how much to tax goods coming and going. the tariff was a major factor. >> currency was also going to be a major factor. >> very much so and had been since the civil war. the civil war proliferated the use of paper currency. the issue of greenback currency was very much a political issue. >> houston is up next and our

caller's name is james. hello, james. >> caller: hello. >> go ahead please. >> caller: okay. you said the invention of the civil war governor. the first republican governor was my great great grandfather hannibal hanlin. >> yes. >> caller: i think the rift with conklin might have cost blaine new york and might have cost him the presidency. that might have come back to haunt him i think. >> thanks for your contribution. hannibal hanlin. >> he was born in 1809 in paris hill in oxford county. he was a highly skilled lawyer who served as governor of maine briefly and then became a senator and then in 1860 chosen

as lincoln's running mate as vice president and served from 1861-'65. after the war he goes back into political life as a senator. he would have been very much a part of blaine's world in the republican party in maine. hannibal was a powerful, towering figure in that period. he would have interacted constantly with blaine. >> he was someone who stood against chinese exclusion. >> elizabeth, since we're in a period of time where we hear people bring up the question that maybe it's time for a new party, that the two-party system is failing us, this is the period when we saw the evolution of the political parties. would you take a minute and explain about the demise of the wigs and the rise of the republicans. >> the demise of the wigs is very much associated with the

person you were talking about in the program last week with henry clay. when henry clay died -- he was so closely linked to wig party that the wig party really collapsed. it was also about the slavery issue and the anti-immigrant issue and a number of other issues that led to the development of this political chaos which gave way to the republican party, but also the split in the democratic party over the course of the 1850s. we love to introduce you to books. elizabeth leonard has just seen today the first day -- >> just saw the brand new copy of my book. >> tell us about this character. >> joseph holt was lincoln's judge advocate general. he was very important in lincoln's administration. he was the chief of military justice. he was the prosecutor of the

lincoln a lincoln lincoln assassin. >> congratulations on its publication. we're on a historic house. it is -- it's not the top of the hour. it's a couple minutes early. the clocks are ringing. you'll hear a couple at the top hour as we get into the second half of our program. let me take another telephone call. michael watching in tampa. >> caller: i think your show is wonderful. i appreciate the historical commentary as well as the interviewer's commentarcommenta. can we put forth some personal commentary compared to blaine's time and today's political

landscape? >> what do you mean? >> caller: blaine represents something that's dominant in the american populous today, but not being representative. i think blaine was very inspiring to hear about this tonight. i'm curious of some personal input from all three of you relative to that landscape of then versus today. >> thanks very much. i'll ask both our guests to talk about that. >> i'm not quite sure what he's looking for. if you're asking whether i think he's a politician perhaps who would be recognizable today, i guess maybe i would say -- i would think he might be recognizable in his ability to know the political system, to manipulate the political system, to be a real career politician. he's a certain type. >> could he have competed in today's -- could a person with his characteristics been successful in today's political role with his charges of

corruption? what would be different about that? >> right. good question. i think, though, he had a lot of personal skills that probably would stand him in good stead today. to be an effective leader you need to have a charismatic personality. you need to be able to get your message across well. these are things he did very successfully. he really understood the behind the scenes working of the political scene really from the 1850s right into the 1890s. >> we talked about the media being so supportive of the parties. someone who had persistent charges against him, were there investigations by the media at the time? >> certainly they were looking into it. today we investigate people's

corruption all the time and they still proceed with their careers. >> phoenix, this is josh. >> caller: good evening. great show. i was wanting your guests to comment on mr. blaine's foreign policy thoughts. as secretary of state, what were his opinions? did he go abroad? i'm interesting in south central america. i was born in cuba. during the -- towards the end of the 20th century, the cuban revolution was just starting. i was wonder if mr. blaine ever went to countries outside of the united states and what his opinions were on colonialism.

i'll hang up and listen. >> your question is timely. it's time to learn about his years as secretary of state. he served three presidents. some historians suggest if we look at blaine's legacy it's in the area of international affairs. can you speak to his influence and then answer the question about whether or not he left the country? >> sure. i'll take the first one first if that's okay. >> sure. >> i don't believe he went to central or south america. >> but europe. >> europe, yes. he travelled several times to europe. in the period between the time he ran for president and the time that he became secretary of state in the mid 1880s he spent quite a bit of time in europe. some of that time was actually with a very close friend of his andrew carnegie in scotland. in terms of his significance as secretary of state, the development of policies, they were really primarily focussed

on central and south america. this was a really very progressive thing to be doing in american foreign policy. those areas had largely been ignored since the days of the monroe doctrine. he was very concerned that britain was having a strong influence on some of the countries, particularly argentina. many of those countries were fighting among each other. he felt in order to have a strong and safe america, you also needed to have a strong and safe neighbor to the south. >> right. >> before you answer, we have another political cartoons. this is titled "the old scout." what's it's about? >> it's a pro blaine campaign piece. it's from "the judge." it shows blaine as an old western scout on a horse with an old tattered hat. >> look at all the people of the world looking at him.

>> exactly. this is blaine as secretary of state in 1890. he's leading the people of central and south america into a new world. he's giving them leadership. in many ways this is reflecting his pioneering work in creating what became the pan-american union, the opportunity for people to meet diplomatically in both hemispheres. >> where did he get these ideas from? >> i think it was the monroe doctrine. he was trying to revitalize that older image of unity and defense, something i find interesting is the notion he felt the monroe doctrine extended as far west as hawaii. he had his eyes on hawaii. he had an imperialistic strain

to him. >> he doesn't live long enough to see hawaii annexed. he sets it in place by sending his friend john l. stevens who was involved with him and he sends him as a diplomat. >> blaine talked about an influential america based on its wealth. >> yes. he would have been supportive of the notion of consolidation of capital. >> the interesting thing, we had a caller much earlier on ask about thomas b. reed. there was a very strong difference between blaine and his world view and thomas b. reed who actually resigned from

the house after the spanish war because he was so concerned about the imperial direction he perceived america going in. there were differing views in america in the late 19th century about the direction of the nation as a world power. >> right. >> he was serving under president benjamin harrison. >> yes. >> how strong a president was he? >> he was generally perceived as a weak president and blaine was the shadow president. this is reflected in a lot of the popular literature and cartoons again. >> i read a similar thing about him when he was secretary of state for garfield, that he was also -- people -- the author was defending garfield, but he was defending it against people saying it was really blaine who was running the show as well. >> wisconsin, this is david. hi, david. you're on. >> caller: yes. i was wanting to know with him

being progressive republican, did he have any influence or was there finger prints on wisconsin's political party that would become progressive during that time period up until the 1900s, 1910s all the way to the 1930s. there's a lot of policies we still live by, worker's comp and worker's rights. did he have any influence at all with influencing anything in wisconsin? thank you. >> not that i'm aware of. >> we're talking there about the next generation of politics. we're talking about the teddy roosevelt era from the early 1900s. the reforms you're talking about that wisconsin is so noted for and reforms that extended to other states are post 1900.

>> yes. i would think he would have been very pro capitalism. he was with the millionaires. he wasn't meeting with the workers. >> bangor, maine, bruce. >> caller: could you give a brief history about the house that you're in, how the state of maine acquired that? also, mr. blaine's death in washington, d.c. and his subsequent burial 20 years later back in augusta. >> i'm going to ask you not to talk about the death now. we're going to show a little bit of his grave site. about this house please. >> yes. i mentioned earlier the house was built by a retired sea captain, captain james hall in 1833. our state house across the street had been finished in 1832. for hall, as for blaine, this was a strategic location for a

home. the house was acquired by blaine and his wife in 1862. he died in 1893. she in 1903. then the house was really inherited by their surviving children. then in the 19 teens the house went to blaine's grandson walker blaine beale. he was tragically lost in the last month of world war i, in 1918 in france. the house went back to harriet blaine beale and she in turn gave it to the state of maine in 1919 as our governor's mansion. it was restored and remodelled so it could be used as the home of the governor. governor and mrs. la page are the 21st family to live here.

>> let me introduce you to another gentleman. let me show you a biography he's written of james g. blaine. it's "continental liar" from the state of maine. neil world is joining us from inside the blaine house, the governor's mansion. how did you get interested in james blaine to write a biography about him? >> basically i've been involved in this house since 1966. i was an assistant to governor curtis. i knew all about the blaine house. another governor angus king asked me to co-chair a group called friends of blaine house. i spent a lot of time here. i noticed there was a little bit about blaine here. there really wasn't very much. there was no up to date biography of him. the previous biographies were

about 70 years old and there had been two of them written in the 1930s, early '30s. i thought it was high time that this fascinating character who came within a whis keker of bei president of the united states had a book written about him. >> what are some other words you would use besides fascinating to describe him? >> the one they used a lot was magnetic. they called him the magnetic man because he had a magnetic personality. apparently when he would walk into a room, he just filled that room. everybody sort of flocked to him. so he was sort of a natural in that regard. >> i know you've been listening to our conversation. do you have a favorite james g. blaine story we haven't told

tonight? >> oh, boy, i didn't hear everything you said. i was going to start by talking about the first time he was secretary of state and i don't know how much you got into his relationship with garfield. >> that's all right. tell us a bit about it. >> garfield was like a protege of his. in fact, he helped him get through a real tough patch down in congress when garfield was accused of corruption and of taking some stock that he shouldn't have taken. he got him out of that. they were just very close friends. in 1880 when blaine was running for the second time and he kept grant from getting the nomination, but he didn't have enough force to get the nomination for himself. so he turned it over -- he

turned his votes over to garfield. that's how garfield who was a very dark horse when the convention started happened to end up as the republican nominee. as a quid pro quo, the number one job in the cabinet was to be secretary of state. it was sort of understood between them he would become secretary of state. >> let's take another telephone call. we have less than 20 minutes left in our 90 minutes on james g. blaine. this is chris from ohio. >> caller: hi. i'm curious about blaine's relationship with thaddeus stevens before and after the civil war. the relationship with sumner might be interesting since he was chair of the senate foreign relations committee. >> thanks very much. is that something you can take

mr. rule? >> i can take a shot especially with stevens. blaine made a name for himself when he first was elected to congress by taking on the dowdy stevens who everybody was afraid of and contradicting him. i don't know exactly what his relationship with sumner was. blaine was not a radical republican. he wasn't -- he was a moderate in that regard. he still wanted to build the republican party in the south. that's why he was so strongly for suffrage for the freed slaves and for that part of reconstruction. he was not for tremendous punishment for the south that some of the radicals were. >> our callers are here for our three guests as we talk about the life and times of james g. blaine, unsuccessful nominee for

president in the 1884 election and grover cleveland was the successful candidate. we believe he had an outside influence on american history. we're learning more about that. woodland hills, california, you're on the air, eric. >> caller: continuing on about james g. blaine's personality, i was wondering he's certainly a larger than life character. do you see him embodied in any current politician? thank you. >> let me ask neil rule briefly and then i'll ask our two guests. giving them a little time to think about it. >> no, i don't think so. he was considered a very congenial person and of course he came from a way, as we say here in maine. he came up here as a young man

and was immediately accepted by people here because he was so good with people. so he was sort of a combination of various people that we have now. i don't see anyone that has his intellectual depth. he was a very bright guy, very well-read. i was reading about him going to parties in washington and being described as being surrounded by all the women there because he was reading them poetry. >> that gets us all the time, right, elizabeth? have either of you thought of comparisons to today? >> i thought of bill clinton. certainly in some ways that great personable style, larger than life, very commanding. my understanding of bill clinton is when he walks into the room he takes center stage without even trying. >> and a great orator.

>> right. i also thought about lyndon johns johnson, knowing how to get people to do what he wanted. >> and how to work the system. >> and a little corruption here and there. >> we're livin' sie inside the governor's mansion in maine. shawn, you're on. >> caller: good evening. was there a residence in washington, d.c. in dupont circle? was there any connection between mr. blaine and the -- >> what was that? >> we'll take it in this room, neil. a residence in washington, d.c. >> yes. in 1881 when blaine became secretary of state he decided to

build a large gilded-aged mansion on dupont circle. that house is still standing today. it was a house that he only kept for a few years and then of course in the post-1884 election he and his wife travelled a lot. it was at the same time after giving up the washington residence they built another big gilded-age summer cottage in bar harbor, maine. then he acquired secretary of state william steward's house near the white house, near l lafayette square. >> he sold the house in dupont circle. >> he was there for a short time. one of his daughters was married there. his wife hated the place. it's absolutely mammoth and

still standing on massachusetts avenue. >> it's in washington, d.c. just about 12 minutes left. pitsfield, maine, stanley. >> caller: i would like to know are there any books that either elizabeth or earl may recommend for reading in regards to mr. blaine? >> i would suggest the book you're holding right there. >> if you antsome other books, can recommend? >> neil's book is the most rece recent, the most up to date book about blaine. as to state history, actually neil also is an author to turn

to there. he's done a couple wonderful overview histories in the state of maine. >> mr. rule, you're getting a lot of valentines in this room here. >> good. keep it up. >> we're talking about houses. in your book you describe the scene when james g. blaine learns he's successful in getting the republican nomination in 1884 and he goes to the front door of this house to greet supporters. talk about that time. >> when the news first came, the people were gathered down on water street which is right down by the river. his biggest kroeny was the post master down there. they were putting up signs on how blaine was doing. finally they put up that he had

got the nomination. also, the blaines had a telephone. they were probably one of the first in the nation to have a telephone. the phone rang. his daughter maggie picked it up and learned he won. she ran out into the front lawn where blaine was lying in a hammock and she told him you've won, father. you've won. so that was how he learned the news. then everybody marched up the hill from water street to come up to greet their hero. a huge crowd gathered. then it started to rain. one of the -- you heard a voice yell out from the crowd, we've been waiting 11 years for this rain to come. so blaine said they were all

getting soaked. he gave a speech then. then everybody started to pour in here from all over the country. they had a train come from california which had the california delegates to the chicago convention, all plastered with blaine stuff. people started to come from all over the state of maine and all over the united states. then john logan eventually, they called him black jack logan, he came and spent a few days with blaine. >> i want to thank you for adding to our rich knowledge of james g. blaine. one more plug for your book. "continental liar from the state of maine." neil rule is part of our program as we learn more about this colorful and influential man from the 19th century, known not only across the united states, but around the world. topsail beach, north carolina,

douglas, you're on the air. >> caller: i would like to ask your historians what blaine's relationship was to joshua chamberlain who was later the governor of maine after the civil war. he was a republican. what was their relationship? >> well, of course, as you mention chamberlain served four terms right after the civil war. chamberlain was a very independent individual and he was not comfortable with blaine's brand of politics. there's ample evidence they did not get along that well. they were not close come patriots in the party. in fact chamberlain did not go further the politics after the governorship. he became president of boden college and then later on collector of the port of portland.

>> we had a caller talk about the cities named for blaine. we found a number of them around the united states named for blaine. can you talk more about honoring people, especially james g. blaine, through naming the communities. >> one of the things i thought of when i heard that -- when i learned about that is i thought about the fact that several of them are out west. i thought about his whole push for the western vote in the 1879, 1880, hoping to build that through chinese exclusion. i thought maybe he did win some favors out west. i don't know there's any connection. it was interesting this republican figure from maine, out west clearly there was some support. >> washington state and idaho. san francisco up next, hello, jim. >> caller: most of blaine's

history was during reconstruction. he was a moderate republican. can you nuance a little bit to what degree he negotiated or supported the reassertion of power by southern whites? >> well, i'm sure that he would have said that he stood firmly against the reassertion of power by southern whites, but he was a moderate. he was in line with those who believed that the nation should move forward and that the radicals were really holding it back. of course the radicals were in favor of punishing the white southerners, the rebels as best they could. i don't think it would have been in any way good politics for him to have stood up for white southerners. i don't think he was really strongly going to take the position that they should be punished. >> in that regard, elizabeth,

what's the incident with his sponsoring the bill that would exclude citizenship for jefferson davis? >> in 1876 when he was throwing his hat in the reing for the presidency he sponsored a bill that said the remaining confederates, former confederates, who had not yet been given amnesty should have been given amnesty except jefferson davis. >> how did that go across the nation? >> it provoked a great fight in congress. some people thought it was great. the idea to hold jefferson davis accountable was great. others thought blaine was waving the bloody shirt again and the nation seemed to be moving away from the war. >> independence, iowa, this is

joe. >> caller: unlike joshua chamberlain, grant, william mckinley blaine had no military record in the civil war. his running mate, general john logan, had one and was the first president of the grand army of the republic, that great republican organization throughout the states and logan gave us memorial day. can you speak to the fact was that a ticket balancing move in some censsense or did it cover fact that blaine did not serve? >> there's no question that was a political balance on the ticket. logan was very well-known. the veterans' vote was a powerful force in the post civil war period in america. blaine, because he was very much involved in an emerging political career when the civil war broke out, he was speaker of the house here in maine, in our

maine house of representatives. he was about to run for congress. so he did what many men did at the time, he actually bought a substitute. it cost about $300 to have someone else go in your stead. cleveland had done the same thing. it was an interesting situation that prior to the 1884 campaign you always had someone in office in the presidency, grant and hays and garfield, who had been civil war officers. blaine and cleveland were not. >> whichever one had one it would have been the -- >> it would have been a break in that. >> we had a viewer who asked about his death. tell us the story of his death. >> yes. as has been mentioned, he was a man who was prone to illness all

through his life. i think both real and imagined. there was always mention that he might have been more hype con dri yack than reality. by the same token, by 1892 he was exhausted both physically and mentally. in fact, the campaign of 1892 was looming. there was some talk of his being nominated for president, but he really wasn't up to it. he bowed out. he gave only one speech during the campaign on behalf of the re-election of harrison. then early in 1893 he died at his home in washington. >> where is he buried? >> here in augusta. originally buried in washington as was his wife. then the state of maine brought mr. and mrs. blaine's remains back to augusta and they reside in a beautiful blaine memorial above the cemetery here in

augusta. >> how long did his wife live after him? >> 1903, another ten years. >> we have very little time. we have a local caller, augusta, maine. >> this question may have been answered by earl. what was the relationship of mr. blaine towards the native population of this state, native american population? we know there were innatives in the civil war and had regimens down in the south. >> thank you jonathan. big question, short time. >> yeah. i'm not sure that i have a quick answer for that. >> is that right? >> any place to go for that? is there material available? >> i would look to neil's book to start out. also the state library, very good reference. >> i would like to close.

we have just really a minute left and ask you the question. support our thesis. what was the legacy? what's the importance to america today of james g. blaine. >> his influence of secretary of state was very important. it's a great legacy. his desire to build cohesion between north america and south ameri america. >> there's that and if you look back across his long career in public life he's one of the key builders of the republican party in the 19th century. he's there at the beginning in 1854 and he's still there almost 40 years later as probably their most powerful and most identifiable figure. >> whmaine has a republican governor and two republican senators. the congressional is democrat.

i want to thank a number of people as we close. governor la page and the la page family for hosting us here tonight. paula benoit is the director here and she's been wonderful. the maine historic commission and our cable affiliate here, time warner cable of augusta, for all their help and support in bringing c-span to the community. we close the program. we'll give you a look at the campaign memorabilia and listening to a group called the independent silver band as they sing in 1884 blaine logan victory song. thanks for being with us tonight. ♪ hoorah for blaine

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