the life of wendell willkie. >> i stand before you without a single pledge or promise or understanding of any kind except for the advancement of your

costs and that -- your cause and that of democracy. [applause] i expect -- >> the republicans -- wendell willkie ran for president in 1940. these are some damages -- some images of him on the campaign trail. we are here with david willkie. i want you to introduce the cabinet -- audiences of some of the fervor. your grandfather ran for president and try to defeat franklin delano roosevelt, who was seeking a third term. was seeking a third term.

captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2008

captioning performed by vitac . grew up in elwood. when they married, this was the place they generally call home. in the family, my great great grandfather had lost his shirt during the depression. instead of giving his father in

law a handout, when the willkie and bought a farm land. he asked his father-in-law if he would manage it. >> how much time did he spend

>> no question. he was the dark horse and during that time period and the nomination's speechn you had stories of beer cans that were many feet high and it was such a hot, sweltering indiana day that was out there. it was a carnival atmosphere with pins and books and paraphernalia, some of which you will see here today. >> david willkie, the grandson of wendell willkie, as we continue cspan's "the coming -- contenders" series and coming to from rushville, indiana and we will be joined by

the author of "the forgotten man" and the professor of history at the university of indiana. we'll show you what the scene was like in elwood city -- ellwood, indiana, i should say, and the speech by wendell willkie, as i walk to the next room and introduce you to our guests in just about a minute and a half. >> i say that we must substitute for the philosophy of distributed scarcity, the philosophy of unlimited productivity. productivity. i stand for the restoration of full production and reemployment by private enterprise in america. [applause] on new deal's effect business has had the inevitable results. investor has been afraid to invest his capital. the businessman has been afraid to expand his operations.

many at hands have returned to the unemployment office. errors console -- irresponsible experiments in the country as deprive the former of this market. for the first time in history, american industry has remained stationary for a full decade. i charge that the path of this administration is following will lead us to the end of the road. i say that this course will lead us to economic disintegration and dictatorship. i say that we must substitute for the philosophy of spending, the philosophy of production. you cannot buy freedom. you must make freedom.

from 1992 a 75 cent stamp commemorating centennial of wendell willkie's birth and the author of "the forgotten man chl now with george w. bush institute in dallas, texas. thanks for being with us. let me begin with that speech really essentially setting the groundwork for why he was challenging roosevelt. >> well, wendell ran against roosevelt and the new deal and against the kind of policies that represent the new deal. i think we'll have a good opportunity to talk about those this evening. let me say it was a standard political speech but not a standard political rally, as david said. it was a massive rally, 150, some estimates 250,000 people in this small indiana town in

august at a time when, as hoosiers say, you can hear corn grow. it was 102 degree that afternoon when willkie took the podium, and he spoke with eloquence and yet the atmosphere was such that the speech was a bit flat in terms of the audience and in terms of the reception. so it wasn't the best start for the actual campaign. we now know looking back that it was rather indicative of the campaign itself, and some of the disorganization and some of the difficulties that willkie, the amateur newcomer had in making his case as to why the american people should vote roosevelt out of office and not allow a third term. >> the speech was heard on radio by millions of americans. >> yes. this was the time of radio, and people sat by the radio sets and listened intently to political speech speeches. >> you've written extensively about the new deal. this is eight years after

franklin roosevelt promised the new deal for the american people. unemployment still in double digits and concern about the economy. why was it that the republicans turned to an outsider, probably the only time in american history that a non-military, non-politician was the party nominee. >> this is an incredible political expression. i do see this speech as an enormous success of some kind because the republican party was failing, it was failing the country. it wasn't giving an answer to what the democrats had to offer and the democrats, as we say, weren't delivering recovery. the recovery was choosing to stay away and what willkie was and his popularity as seen on that day, was an expression of the people. the talkback, the gop had never expected a rally like that with wendell willkie at the center, their candidate for president a year earlier. so it was a genuine grassroots

event of a kind that's fairly aware in the u.s. where you start way down there and you get to the nomination for president. >> so let me ask the large question. why him and what did he do to try to lay the groundwork that allowed the party to turn to this outsider and this businessman from indiana who spent some time in new york as the 1940 nominee? >> it was easy to underestimate willkie, i think. i think the professional, the long-term career politicians in the republican party did just that. they underestimated this fellow. he did have no political experience to speak of. he never ran for office. he never held office and he was a businessman, a lawyer, but very smart and very sophisticated, and i think it's relevant that his business experience was really in a way, political experience. he was a wonderful communicator and commonwealth in the south. he knew how to work with people and he knew how to make the case and how to make an argument. the kind of skills that he deployed as a presidential

candidate. >> yet alice roosevelt longworth was quoted as saying it was the grassroots of a thousand country clubs, and you're smiling. >> i think the grassroots campaign is part of the politics of politicking. we, the people, truly was grassroots in what it intended, but willkie was not an ordinary, common man. willkie was a very wealthy, corporate lawyer and businessman. he had an agriculture interest but he wasn't a farmer. he said he farmed by conversation, not by actually farming. so he was far, far from the grassroots, but he tried to appeal to the grassroots of america, the people at the grassroots. >> let's talk about the 1940 convention for a moment. this is a convention that had people like governor harold staffson delivering the speech, the governor of minnesota, herbert hoover, former president who was hoping that the party would turn to him one more time.

tom dewey as we talked about with david willkie and of course, you had robert taft, senator taft who was hoping that the party would turn to him. >> well, we get in a little trouble when we draw analogies, but dewey was the prosecutor from new york who overrated himself, and we often have new yorkers come out and think they're going to win especially when they have a legal background. taft was mr. republican. people had heard about him before. taft was a name, we had a president called taft. that was not particularly new and herbert hoover was a wonderful man of talent who had become a great vanity and was getting in the way of the progress of the party because he kept wanting to run again, but his time was probably fast and probably past and what's exciting about willkie is we went to hear herbert hoover. he couldn't bear the idea that herbert hoover would hog the nomination and hog the party and said let it be willkie and let it be someone i met and heard

about. in that way, willkie was grassroots. he was not of the grass himself, being an attorney, but he was chosen by people who were voting against the party, and the other names we named were the party and willkie came in, and of course, somebody different and not who we expected. >> tired and unexciting men. i think for many people, which of these? none of the above. so it's a perfect atmosphere for a newcomer and an outsider who promises and looks very different from the standard republican standard of the late 1930s. >> and what was the state of the democratic party, amity shlaes, and franklin roosevelt and his support in 1940, eight years after when the new deal at a time when most presidents would step down.

>> well, tongue-tied, because roosevelt's victory 46 out of 48 states in the preceding election was so hard to get past and even as the party was beginning to get past it. this idea of having a third term, the war was coming closer. war in 1940 had already been declared in europe. germans had invaded poland. britain. all of a sudden, roosevelt, just as you would say roosevelt can't run again, you know roosevelt was a naval president. he was good at war and they knew that. they knew him from world war i when he served the secretary of the navy. he might be a good war leader so all of a sudden people bit their tongue or were tongue-tied and didn't protest against roosevelt. but still it was quite amazing that here they were through their time. >> except, professor madison, the headlines in the summer of 1940 with wendell willkie as the republican nominee, hitler moving into france as well declaring victory and the big question is as you pointed out, great britain next. so juxtapose the politics of 1940 and the looming clouds of war in 1940 and '41.

>> it worked remuch to willkie's advantage that frank surrendered to the nazis and that turned americans' attention very forcibly to this war in europe. they didn't want to be a part of it, but they knew they needed a wartime leader, and roosevelt looked a lot better in that context than did any of the republicans. >> we are coming to you with some of the scenes from the rush county historical society in rushville, indiana, which is just about an hour from indianapolis and one of the homes of wendell willkie. he was born in elwood, indiana, which is to the north of us and as always, as we continue c-span's "the contenders" series, our focus this week on wendell willkie. we want to hear from you, 737-0001 if you live in eastern time zones, and 202-737-0002 in the mountain and pacific time

zones. there are so many images from that time. ticker tape parades that we don't see in modern campaigns, why was that significant and what does that tell you about the support that wendell willkie had in certain sectors of the public? >> of course, there's no television, so the candidate really has to get out there among the people. willkie spends a lot of time crossing this country on train and retail politics in towns and cities all across america with all of the hoopla, with all of the hoopla, the stuff that gets people excited about the campaign. >> was franklin roosevelt worried about wendell willkie? >> i think he enjoyed it. we find if you go back and he'll say i'm not going to pretend this is an unpleasant duty to campaign. franklin roosevelt was a warrior and willkie was a warrior, and both of them girded and enjoyed that process. yes, he respected willkie as a contender from the beginning you see him dropping commentators here and there, that one i'm worried about, unlike the

others. that's a real contender, as well. he was ready for the battle. >> we'll hear from franklin roosevelt in just a moment, but who was behind the willkie campaign? who are some of the names that our audience might be familiar with? >> willkie had the good sense or good fortune to meet people in the publishing and newspaper business, in particular. people who had -- who bought ink by the barrel as they used to say. russell fortune who was the editor of "forbes" magazine and rita van doren, editor of "the of "time life" and others. those people in the publishing world like him very, very much, and were very strong behind the scenes in advocating and working for willkie's nomination and his election. >> and he was a democrat, wendell willkie, before becoming the republican nominee. >> in that way he had more credibility as an outsider. he supported the league of nations and he was a wilsonian, and backed baker and he was a

democrat right up to 1935 you can find documents with willkie associated with democrats. that, in a way, gave him more power because he was a dark horse and because he wasn't a party man and because he had become a republican out of conviction. he saw from the inside what was wrong with the democratic philosophy of government. when you look at the beginning of his career as a businessman, he thought he was democratic utilities man. then he came to see that the government was hurting the private utilities company and he grew angry. so it was speaking truth to power and that's what willkie represented and it was real. he really was angry about what happened to his company and his shareholders and commonwealth and southern. so there was something fresh about it. it wasn't canned. he'd seen his shareholders lose money and his company be hurt. that's different from someone observing from the political sphere. >> based on your book, the unemployment rate in 1940 was what?

>> the unemployment rate in 1940 was 10 or below. so it's above where we are. it's a little bit muddy because you're moving toward world war ii, but the average unemployment rate for the '30s was in the teens. and that's the important thing to know. some people say 14, some say 16. it's the difference between terrible and awful. we wouldn't accept it and it was so long. >> wendell willkie talking about unemployment and jobs on the campaign trail in hoboken, new jersey. we're going to listen to part of that, and then a conversation, part of the recordings of president roosevelt in the oval office from october of 1940 as franklin roosevelt discusses the willkie challenge. driving up the streets of hoboken, why is the average store window -- why does the average store window have pictures of my opponent and his running mate on the new deal

ticket? i do not know of any more appropriate place to put those pictures. [applause] >> hell, they'd give anything in the world to that fellow elected. >> that's franklin roosevelt in the recordings from 1940. franklin roosevelt, the politician, we're hearing a little bit of that in this oval office recording. based on the iteration and reiteration of the same thing. so after a while people tend to believe it.

i think the polls could be maybe crooked. they are going to show willkie, pretty good. to be a bad slump, out ahead in october. my judgment is that they are going to start willkie, pick him up, pick him up, pick him up. >> that's franklin roosevelt and recordings from the 1940s. roosevelt, the politician, we're hearing a little bit of that in this oval office recording. >> probably never had anyone in the white house that was more of a wylie politician than franklin roosevelt. he was just superb. he practiced with a skill and ability and success that has few, if any, rivals. willkie, of course, had the

misfortune of running against that very skillful politician. >> i'm going to follow up in a moment with you, amity but let me stay with you. was he consistent on the issues in the 1940 campaign? >> no, he wasn't. few politicians are consistent on the issues and especially in the heat of a campaign, a campaign that started to go badly for willkie, the disorganization, the chaos, the difficulty of challenging rote velt. and in the last weeks of the campaign, he moved toward positions on war and on the new deal that he might not have fully agreed with, that were more harsh, vituperative. >> amity shlaes. >> willkie was inconsistent, but we can't downplay his success. he won more votes in that election than any republican had ever won. electorally roosevelt was the wiley fox and had a large number of votes relative to willkie and the spread on the popular vote was much narrower 22 million,

versus 27. willkie got much closer to the democrat than republicans had been. to the wileyness, i want to mention roosevelt really did become worried and that's where you see him worried talking about all sorts of things and maybe we'll hear another tape where he worried about whether he could use willkie's mistress as a fact to beat him in the election, rita van doren. so there's a lot of stuff going on and they are beginning to take the willkie candidacy seriously and that was a feature of the campaign, this very important girlfriend willkie had, his intellectual muse in rita van doren. >> we'll talk more about her because you also write about her in your book on a different note, but let's get to your phone calls. the phone number is 202-737-0001 for those of you in the eastern and mountain, central time zones, 202-737-0002. in the mountain and pacific time zones. we are in rushville, indiana, in

the home of wendell willkie, and his home is literally about two blocks, three blocks from where we are right now. the first call from coakley, ohio. welcome to the conversation, go ahead, please. >> caller: thank you. good evening, c-span. this is a great program, and i really hope people take advantage of this great service that you're giving to the american people. my question is -- well, i have a couple of comments -- questions. the first one is being in the suburb of akron, ohio, known as copley, i wanted to know more about wendell willkie's role as attorney for the goodyear tire and rubber company where he during that time was heavily involved in akron city democratic politics. and my second comment is, with wendell willkie being the dark horse candidate at that time in 1940, do you see history kind of

repeating itself 72 years later with the emergence of herman cain as the new dark horse for the republican party with no political experience and a business background and that sort of thing, and he's starting to look better compared to governor romney and governor perry and all of the others that are basically career politicians? >> you bring up two good points. thanks for the call. let's first talk about akron, ohio. he grew up here in indiana, went to ohio, ultimately ended up in new york but ohio was a key part of his career. >> he followed the economic growth. that's what happened. why did he go from indiana to ohio? because rubber was there. because tires were there. what's astounding when we think of our cities now is when he got to akron, he couldn't find a bedroom. it was that packed in the boom, the automobile boom he had to park on a chair the first night if you read the biographies. it was so tight, growing so fast with the automobile industry, so in a way that tells you a lot

about willkie and what he was for. he was for economic growth and from there to new york, first with the law firm to serve a new industry, the internet of their day and utilities and then to head that utilities company come up. >> herman cane was on the fox news channel today, and one of the questions was that the republican party has not nominated a businessman since wendell willkie. so you have a direct connection today to what the caller's point was and earlier to herman cain when he appeared on the fox news channel. >> i always like when people make connections between present day politics or issues and past. day politics or issues and past. i'm a little reluctant to do that except to say this, is except that it's still too early to identify the dark horse because at this point in 1939 and the fall of 1939, very, very few people had ever heard yet of wendell willkie. many thought he was still a democrat. willkie didn't emerge until the spring of 1940. so if we're following the format here, we have to wait until spring of '12 to know if we have a dark horse. >> of course, one obvious

difference, the conventions of 1940 are very different from a convention in 2012. >> the outcomes were less certain than now because they really didn't have -- we seem to be more settled in our primary system. when they get there, they're just counting it up what already happened. >> ron is joining us from marysville, washington, as we talk about the presidential campaign of wendell willkie, the 1940 republican nominee. go ahead, ron. >> caller: yes. thanks for taking the call and for having this series which is outstanding. i just want to provide three corrections or clarifications to statements that have been made. number one, it was a statement that roosevelt was the first president to contemplate a third term. actually, woodrow wilson contemplated and as documented in his recent biography by john milton cooper. he may have been delusional, but he seriously contemplated it even after his stroke.

secondly, and your historians can correct me but i'm pretty sure roosevelt, fdr was assistant secretary, not full secretary. >> we didn't say that. >> caller: third, willkie, i don't think was the first nonpolitician republican nominee. i think i would classify hoover as being in that category even though we have the cabinet post of the secretary of commerce and he was never an elected politician nor did he serve in the military. thank you. >> ron, thanks for the call and thanks for the points. first on herbert hoover and also on woodrow wilson. herbert hoover was secretary of commerce before he was the 1928 nominee, and woodrow wilson, the point about whether he was serious about a third term in 1920. >> i'm just writing the biography of calvin coolidge so i'm in the period when wilson is ill after his stroke and wilson and wilson's crowd thought about a lot of things, but it was clear to the party

that he couldn't be the next president. so that's a little bit of a different category. we didn't say roosevelt was secretary of the navy. we said he served secretary of the navy, but we appreciate the caller's precision. >> indeed. >> james is joining us next from stanford, north carolina. go ahead, please. >> caller: hello. i just wanted to comment that in the fall of 1940 wendell willkie did a whistle stop tour through florida, and i happened to be a western union trainee in melbourne, florida and he came through melbourn,e and he was on the rear platform of the train. about a crowd of 50 or 60 people. i had an opportunity to shake hands with wendell willkie. that was either september or october of 1940. just a comment i wanted to add. that was very interesting. >> do you remember as you saw him on that whistlestop tour what you thought when you saw

him campaign? >> caller: i was a kid of 18 years old. and i just was in awe of here's a guy that could be president of the united states. i really looked up to him. i'm 89, and i was 18 years old. i was just a kid. so i was very, very visibly impressed and he made a majestic appearance in the back of that train. it was something, and to me it was very special. >> james, thanks for the call. jim madison, these are some of the images that the audience is looking at as the crowds swarmed around wendell willkie. he also used the media. a couple of points, nbc radio carrying almost 30 hours of the republican convention in philadelphia. television was introduced in the 1940 convention. viewers in new york and schenectady and a few other cities could see the 1940 convention and of course, the republican party put together some ads that were used in movie theaters around the country.

>> yes. politics is always changing and there's always new techniques and new possibilities and media. it was part of his experience as a businessman to use the media and to work with public relations and opportunities and ways of making your case. so he was excellent with that. helped, again, by the kind of people you had around him in the campaign who was the best in the best of the media business. >> he was want a farmer, but he went after the agricultural vote. >> the agricultural vote is still very, very important in 1940, and there are a very large number of farmers and they vote. agriculture policy is central to presidential election, so any president expecting to have a chance at victory must pay attention to that. that's why we see these photographs of willkie here in rushville standing in front of a cornfield or in front of pigs. some said all of the hogs in rushville began to pose as soon as the camera showed up because they were so accustomed to willkie and the hogs and the corn as objects of

photographers' attention. >> in one of the photographs he's wearing a suit next to the farmer as he inspects the corn. >> he never actually -- he was quite honest. one of the nice things about willkie is he was honest in all sort of ways including never actually pretending he was, indeed, a farmer. >> so the major issues in 1940, what were they, amity shlaes. >> they were the war. are we going in? do we have to go in? if london has to be bombed maybe we have to go in even though we remember that world war i was such a horror. so that's got to be number one. war always trumps economics. two, the economy. the recovery that had chosen over and over again to stay away. so those are the big ones. i wanted to add one thing about willkie. we know the phrase "happy warrior." we know it from the democrats, roosevelt, al smith, and to be a happy lawyer is to be a winner politics. willkie was a happy warrior and

though he could get a barb or two in, he was basically not a vicious man. what the gop learned in the '30s was they failed through bitterness. they failed through the liberty league and all of the attacks on the new deal were bitter and angry and not born of experience or truth, so willkie represented a new way of being for the party and not just to smear roosevelt, but to take them on with facts and without too much ad hominem. that was a big -- i don't know if you call that media or character. i call it character. >> "gone with the wind" still popular and if you went to a movie theater in 1940, you very well could have seen this ad put together by the republican national committee for wendell willkie. >> whether you are in oregon or florida, a vegetable farmer in new jersey or california, or a wheat grower in kansas or minnesota, you have a right to know how well your republican

candidates for president and vice president understand agricultural problems and their personal interest in farming. for this perp, this motion picture has been produced. todae central figures of this picture. wendell willkie of indiana and charles mcnary of oregon. mr. welty visits a family of one of his former split -- mr. willkie but it's a family of one of his formfarmer. they does not let anything stand in his way. these are practical corn belt farmers. his interest in america's young people is

genuine. in them, he sees the future of america. >> from the republican national he committee and amity shlaes, i want to ask you, he describes himself as a liberal and this is an important point to understand. liberalism in the 1940s say very different term than how we view it today. >> when willkie said liberal he meant the liberalism of the individual, your individual rights and maybe your human rights and that was a big issue for him and not liberalism of the group, not the progressive block, and he saw an opposition there. so that's quite different from liberalism that's progressive where we have such as farms and such as veterans and senior citizens and hand things out to them. that's what he was seeking to define, especially in the middle of the '30s and later '30s as he was becoming a political personality in '38. >> richard is joining us from wellington, florida. go ahead with your question with

amity shlaes and jim madison. >> caller: yes. you mentioned the important role of publications and houses in new york and so on. i recently visited the special collections at georgetown university and went through the willkie files. i was very struck by the role in the campaign of the people like john hey whitney and william harding jackson, the managing director of j.h. whitney company, investment bankers, and of william mcilvaine in the chicago area. i'd like to know if you were talking about their role in the campaign and more broadly the level of support from melbourne and j.h. whitney company in new york that stem from mr. willkie's time in new york from

'49 and maybe before then. thank you so much. >> in 1939, he passed away in 1944, and his years in new york and those that supported him. >> he was a corporate man who worked in southern, which was a company put together to wire the south in the united states. it had a corporate mission and a business mission and a service mission. the other corporations, they were on wall street, and they all knew each other. it wouldn't be surprising if you hear names like that associated, but not all establishment republicans with money worked for willkie. on the contrary, many worked for the other names we heard, so it wasn't as if wall street decided and willkie was very late and some of them came around when they saw he would be the candidate. that's different. so you'll see people jumping in at varying points. >> the sale of the tba and that impact it had on wendell willkie

as a businessman and his view of government, can either of you address that issue? >> well, what happened was commonwealth -- it's the story really that starts in the '20s. the south is dark. the rest of the country is beginning to be lit up. how do we light up the south? the company commonwealth and southern was put together to supply the answer. a company can do it. we will do it, and it was a bit of governance orchestration because we had different laws in the states then, but they thought they could do it and they went on the stock exchange. that was when the dow jones first started, the dow jones utility index. that was the internet of the period. another view coming from the government was the government should supply the power. we'll light up the south and the tba, tennessee valley authority which he developed. he found himself in the wrestling match with david blumenthal, one of the heads of the tda about who would

light up the south. willkie said at the cosmos club, the gentleman lawyer from indiana, it happened that the tda went to depaul and there they are trying to make friendly like two lawyers. willkie essentially to paraphrase said let's split up the south, my company will do some and your company will do some and he basically said when we go back to his diaries. he doesn't get it. the government the take over at all and that was the battle that was wedged through the whole period and eventually much of commonwealth in southern was sold to the government and that's what we're speaking of, the big check with the photographs and willkie was declared the victor and the shareholders of commonwealth and southern got money from the government. but the question was, was it really the victory or the annihilation of the private sector in the marketplace of the future, utilities. >> and purchased for the price of $75 million. >> he got a big check. he took it all around to show

his friends. it was exciting. but i'm not sure it was a victory for the private sector or even for the shareholders of the utility company. >> ruth is joining us from new york city, and we welcome you into the conversation as we look at the life and career of the 1940 campaign of wendell willkie. go ahead, ruth. >> caller: thank you so much for taking my call. it seems like during every presidential election cycle, pundits will invoke wendell willkie's name. i'm curious what it was about his candidacy that still resonates in today's political environment. >> well, i would say, ruth, that it's the freshness and the newness that's inevitable with the dark horse standard that we've been talking about. this is someone who was so different from taft and others, so vital, so energetic. he seemed so honest. one of my favorite little stories about him is that at a time even then when religion was sometimes important and

candidates were expected to be churchgoers, willkie when asked said i generally sleep in sunday mornings. that's a kind of honesty that many people found refreshing in 1940. >> there is a piece that i want you to comment on that's in the adjoining room from "newsweek" magazine from 1968, and the piece said could it be another year of wendell willkie, a year in which republicans were dissatisfied with the expected nomination of richard nixon. >> we have that every few cycles. the republican party is a particularly ossified party and i would say more -- tends towards that. when it gets tired of itself, someone comes from outside. it's also that the republican party is more affiliated with business and enterprise and enterprising people tend to turn out to be republicans because they're from the private sector so that will always be a factor, too. but who is the '68 republican you're thinking of?

>> that was from "newsweek" article. >> did he come? >> he never came. >> we're still waiting for wendell willkie. he excited democrats, too, because he pushed roosevelt over into the war, to put it simply. willkie saw the war had to happen because what was going on in europe was wrong. it was -- we had to help fight the bad nazis, and he was on the cause, you know, on the right side on that. so that's refreshing, whatever party you're from, whenever someone comes in and tells and speaks the truth about an important and difficult issue. i think people will -- that's what people remember, that he forced roosevelt to do what roosevelt knew was the right thing to do, which was go to war. he made roosevelt be a better roosevelt. >> more from wendell willkie as he talked about the point you

brought up earlier, liberalism and the roosevelt new deal and this, another from the republican national committee, a series of films used in movie theaters in the 1940. to picture me as an opponent of liberalism, but i was a liberal but for many of those men heard the word and i fought for the reforms of theodore roosevelt and woodrow wilson before another roosevelt stopped it and distorted the word liberal. american liberalism does not consist merely of reforming things. it consists primarily of making things. we must substitute for the philosophy of distributed scarcity, the velocity of unlimited productivity. i stand for the restoration of full production and reemployment in american private enterprise. present administration has spent $60 billion. the new deal stands for doing what has to be done by spending as much money as possible.

i propose to do it by spending as little money as possible. this is one issue in this campaign that i intend to make crystal clear before the conclusion of the campaign so that everybody in this country may understand the tremendous waste of their >> amity shlaes, as you hear the words of wendell willkie and you see him in the campaign, what are your thoughts? >> well, the first is that that liberalism which he describes, which he differentiates from progressivism, modern liberalism, what we say liberalism when we hear it on television goes all of the way back to the germany of his family. his family left europe in 1848 or soon after as basically social democrats or liberals to get away from militarism. so that's a european liberalism

which is all about the individual and freedom coming straight through down as a tradition in the united states and some of us would call willkie the last, liberal because he was the last big, classical liberal in u.s. politics like that. reagan didn't call himself a liberal. maybe he called himself a libertarian. the word changed in meaning in the u.s. so that was the first. the second was the economic sophistication of what willkie was saying and that does come, and from the point of view from the firm, productivity is really important that we not only make the widgets, but we make them better and that that will increase the standard of living for everyone instead of redistributing. which is the alternate. that a clear, accurate and sophisticated economic argument. >> it's not about just helping the middle class. it's more complex than that. more complex from what we here.

>> amity shlaes and jim madison. next call from moorestown, new jersey. go ahead with your question. >> caller: good evening. did he feel he got support from election rivals, taft, hoover, or was he too recently arrived in the party than a veteran politician had. >> you're shaking your head. >> i don't think he got the support he wanted from fellow politicians. a little aphorism, on learning of willkie's nomination, it's all right if the town prostitute wants to join the church, but she shouldn't be asked to sing a solo on the first sunday in church. he was an outsider to

politicians and they never, ever trusted him, never got behind him. >> to go back to elwood, north of where we are in rushville, he said "you republicans." how did that resonate with the republican base. >> i think some of them noticed they were call you, rather than us or we. he wasn't a republican a year or two prior, he was a democrat. >> charles joining us from savannah, georgia. welcome to the program. go ahead, please. >> caller: thank you. thank you for doing this program on wendell willkie. i think it's important. i believe he was far ahead of his time on many issues. first of all, civil rights. he was way ahead on civil rights. if the country followed his lead on that issue, we would have avoided a lot of strife and dissension in later decades. during the war he was a great advocate of ending colonialism. he wanted to prevent european countries from reestablishing

their empires in the third world, particularly france and indochina. if we hadn't stepped into the shoes of the french in indochina, we would have avoided the tragedy in vietnam and all the tragedy that brought to us. i want to mention you heard in the acceptance speech willkie gave, he was a great believer in the idea that government should not be the enemy of business, the way to fight unemployment was to encourage investment and growth. that's the only way. that's still relevant today. i would be interested in hearing the group's panel discussion about those points. >> thank you, charles. amity. >> one thing that resonates from one world, when we look at it today, that was his book that sold so tremendously well about his time. when he went to the middle east, he said colonials here are too dominant. when they withdraw, there will

be a vacuum, nothing to turn to. we need to help them build democracies. u.s. had a cavalier attitude toward the middle east and we've seen what's resulted. when you hear the protesters today you if back and look at the errors we made in the '40s and '50s, not thaeg that seriously, squandering that opportunity. his description of tehran and the number of babies that died because the water wasn't clean and the tyranny of the regions very much gets de los what we see now when we go to many places in the middle east and what we haven't been able to address systematically. he was like an analyst of the arab spring so many years ago writing in one world it strikes you. >> please, go ahead. >> caller: yes. within six months of the election of 1940, willkie was totally unpopular with the republicans, mainly because he

had adopted roosevelt's foreign policy as pro war. the republican party just ostracized him completely, no matter how well he did in the previous election. when he toured europe for roosevelt, he went over to asia. republicans just hated that, the regular republicans of all stripes. he called his campaign and foreign policy statements as campaign oratory before a congressional hearing in 1941. he ran again in 1944 for the nomination but he had so embittered the republicans by becoming roosevelt's almost foreign policy agent that he had no chance against dewey. but he really was pro roosevelt with regard to foreign policy. for the purposes of the

campaign, he took really an opposite position. but after the election, he came around and endorsed foreign policy and went over to england to tour on behalf of roosevelt. in 1944, roosevelt and willkie had met. i think he wanted the endorsement. he held off. before the election he side, so he never endorsed dewey or roosevelt. >> i'm going to jump in. you bring in a number of key points. thank you, by the way, for phone in. we're going to talk about this book "one world" and post 1940 campaign visits to europe and relationship with europe. you brought up the fall 1940 campaign. let's touch on that, if we could. in the next hour we'll focus on the second part of your phone call. the 1940 fall campaign, he went

in with such great promise, did not have a lot of support of republican establishment. you touched on this earlier. basically how did this happen, unfold? >> i think we need to acknowledge, i'm not sure we've done that this evening, roosevelt did this liabilities going into the campaign. while he won in a landslide in 1936, the congressional elections in 1938 produced, i think, 81 new republican house members voting against roosevelt, voting against the new deal. there was also the court packing plan, which created a lot of bitterness, even among some democrats in america. then there was, as we talked about, this notion that two terms was enough. it was good enough for washington, ought to be good enough for roosevelt. that's more than just following the rules. that's indicative of what some of his critics, within the democratic party, as well as republicans, thought about his arrogance, his power, and the big government he had created. roosevelt had liabilities in

1940. willkie, a republican, might have been able to beat him and maybe willkie was the best possibility of doing that. >> willkie didn't do it in part because he was so inconsistent. by the end they said he was running against his own former positions as much as against his opponent. >> he didn't have a track record politically. >> right. but he was pro union. he was with john l. lewis. he supported the war, then was against it, then supported it. he was quite inconsistent. i've thought about this a lot trying to figure out willkie. i've decided the best way to see him is as a wonderful attorney who takes the best case, the clarifying case, and speaks truth to power about it. the case for the market and the company was the one he made at the end of the '30s. in the campaign he took several different cases, all good ones, which conflicted with one another. later tonight we'll talk about great cases he represented that we still prize today, his

positions and what he did. to see a consistency there, like he's an ideologue, he always stood for free markets or always for war or no war, it's not there. he's a protean man, part of hi charm. often right, often canny in the switch. that didn't make for a perfect campaign, however, by the end they could see he was like roosevelt. >> much more to talk about as we move into our second hour. we want to show you another piece of film from the republican national committee as a way to try to frame the childhood and roots of wendell willkie. we'll come back and talk to david willkie about his grandfather. wendell willkie born 48 years ago in el don, indiana, emerges greatest demonstration to spontaneous support our country has ever known. his grandparents like the ancestors of millions of americans pled the autocracy of europe to find liberty. here in elwood his parents first

taught school and then practiced law. wendell willkie was born mo modest home like millions of americans. he went to the public grade in high school, just like millions of americans. his hard working parents moved later to this elwood home from this wendell willkie went forth to win success both in law and business. >> just some of the scenes from elwood, indiana the birthplace of wendell willkie. david willkie is wendell willkie's grandson. many say the resemblance is pretty amazing, david willkie. first of all, do you think that you look like your grandfather? >> not quite exactly. if i look at myself in the mirror i think of myself as my own person. >> what kind of a man was wendell willkie, describe his persona and what your family views him as a politician. >> well, just physically he was a large man. and he was -- some called him a

big bear of a man. actually, his brother was a heavy weight roman gre co wrestler in the olympics. as far as him he always was taszled. he would put on a suit and it would immediately become rumpled. he could never keep his hair straight. his wife would have to tell him when to get a haircut. he wasn't worried about the outward appearances, he was worried with the idea, how do you convey the idea. how do you win people over to your side? >> explain his indiana roots and where he went to college and how he began his career here as a lawyer? >> he grew up in elwood, indiana. an interesting thing about him and his parents, and his family, was that not only was his father a lawyer, but his mother became one of the first attorneys in indiana, and her first case was against his father. husband and wife, against each

other. and at the end of the day his mother won. not surprising because she was a true driving force in the family. most of the family, well all of his siblings, went to indiana university and they lived together and they were a vibrant part of the community of indiana university, loved being on campus. the intellectual conversations that came out of there. you had people like paul v. mcnut that became governor of indiana that was also there at the same time and was friends with him. after he finished up at indiana university he took a job teaching history in coffeyville, kansas, and also coached basketball. i never think of him as being truly the athletic person but coming from indiana i think that's one thing that we have we always like to think of ourselves as basketball players. he did that for a time before coming back to indiana university, and going to law school. and when he went to law school he was always challenging the thought process that was there.

he was the top of his class, and at the end when he graduated he was giving the speech to his whole commencement class and he chastised both the indiana general assembly, the legislature here in indiana, but also the supreme court at the time. it was so scandalous that the university didn't know what to do. they delayed giving him his diploma for several days while they debated what to do. he was always one to challenge the status quo. >> unlike some of the earlier figures we have featured here on "the contender" series, we're moving into the radio and film and television age. we have a chance to hear these contenders speak. wendell willkie seemed to have a very strong speaking personality. david willkie, can you elaborate on that? >> yes, absolutely. he was always forefront. he was drawn to the camera as you see during the clips you've

shown. it was a new medium, and he relished in it. he relished in talking about different ideas to both in casual conversation but then on the larger stage too. when people were paying attention to him it's almost that he got more energized along the way. >> your grandmother was edith willkie. how did the two meet? >> they met at a wedding here in rushville, indiana, right up the street from where we are now. he was drawn by her. she was a librarian by training. intellectual in her own rite. and there was a natural romance that bloomed. >> we are coming to you from rushville, indiana, david willkie is the grandson of the 1940 republican presidential nominee, one of 14 individuals that c-span is focusing on as we continue our contenders series and we're looking at the 1940 campaign as franklin roosevelt,

seeking a third term, wendell willkie the outsider getting the republican nomination on the sixth ballot in philadelphia. more phone calls coming up in the next hour. two guests here from the rushville historical amity shlaes, bloomberg and the author of forgotten man and professor jim madison. let's take you to the scene here in rushville in november of 1940. just down the street at the durbin hotel where many of the reporters gathered to follow the 1940 campaign as wendell willkie came tout to declare that franklin roosevelt was, in fact, going to be elected to a third term. he conceded the election. and we'll follow that with a conversation with -- his brand of republican politics. people of america, i accept the result of the election with complete good will. i know that they will continue to work, as i shall, for the

unity of our peopled in the building of a national defense. in aid to britain. and for the elimination from america of antagonisms of every kind. to the end, that the free way of life may survive and spread throughout the world. >> after that he really became an ambassador for the united states, had -- if not a friendship with franklin roosevelt, certainly something apr aprok proximating that, he was not a bad loser. he was a winner in terms of our country and his outlook. his ability really to influence public views in other countries about the united states ore correspondingly american views so that we would not become isolationists, would not become withdrawn. >> the thoughts of senator dick luger and how he viewed wendell

willkie and the republican party and just a portion of wendell willkie's concession speech from that very short part we saw it appears as if he expected to lose. >> well, the campaign began to go against him in october. and so the results, i don't think, were a shock at all to wendell willkie or to anyone who was following the campaign, no. >> post-election, this relationship that began to really grow between president roosevelt and mr. willkie. >> it's quite amazing. all of roosevelt's relationships with others are hard to nail down. but willkie and roosevelt did move closer and closer together until willkie's death in 1944. particularly in areas of foreign policy, particularly in supporting great britain before the united states went into the war. >> amity shlaes. >> well, one thing you notice when willkie goes to europe on a tour for roosevelt, as his ambassador, the famous tour in 1942 is that he repeats the same behavior he did at his law

school graduation. roosevelt has kindly given willkie a stage. he goes to meet with stalin on roosevelt's behalf. willkie hears something from stalin, that he wants a second front in the war and that he needs help and willkie says, maybe, europe, this war needs a second front. that was not the u.s. policy at all to have a second front. he was dissing the person whom he was representing. he was an ambassador who dissed his president. and roosevelt didn't really like that. that was not the plan, to have a second front for stalin. you see, that was the upstart in willkie. he called it as he saw it. when he got to russia, he said, well, these people need help sooner. they can't wait for the armies to march up and so on and so on. to roosevelt's credit, he was habl to manage mostly productively an upstart like willkie. >> lonny is joining us from

phoenix, arizona, go ahead, please. >> caller: i'd like to point out to your audience, mr. scully, you're getting a very one-sided economic argument on tonight's program from your panel. ms. shlaes is certainly entitled to her opinion but she's a well-known revisionist historian, seldom with an encouraging thing to say about the new deal. she has several times repeated that because unemployment was still in the low teens as of 1940 that the new deal had failed. i would like to point out that in ms. shlaes' book, i have it in front of me, she concedes roosevelt's experiment in fact worked. she writes, quote, the spending was so dramatic that finally it functioned as canes had hoped it would and as of 1936, within a year, unemployment would drop from 22% to 14%, end quote. now, granted, 13%, 14% is still too high as of 1940 but to say that when roosevelt came in with unemployment in the mid to high

20s, and due to deficit spending had reduced it to the low teens earmarks it as a failure is just unfair. ms. shlaes has made a career of repeating this, and i think it needs to be pointed out to your audience, thank you. >> lonny, thank you for the call. we'll give both of our guests a chance to respond, amity shlaes. >> i don't think we need to get too personal about this. when you're a democrat or republican we see both parties, the obama administration, an average unemployment rate for the 30s at 14%. that's not acceptable now whether you're democrat or republican. the kenzian -- there wasn't that much spending in the 30s buzz the government wasn't that big until we got to world war ii. the spending had some effect especially in '36. the caller is excising a little bit of what i wrote and giving it an interpretation i did not intend nor was visible in the text. but anyway, the '30s were a bad

period. the government didn't bring recovery. neither by the unemployment metric nor by the dow did we recover. we sort of appeared to recover by the war but nobody calls a war a recovery. it's a war. so that's all there is to say. yeah. >> i think the new deal was phenomenally successful. my grandfather was a dirt poor farmer at the beginning of the new deal and he was a dirt poor farmer at the end of the new deal but in his barn he had a framed photograph of roosevelt nailed up. he called him mr. roosevelt with great respect. he wasn't a historian, but as a historian i think the new deal achieved great prosperity and necessary regulation of government. i don't think that's the central question we want to talk about. i'd much rather talk about willkie after the election because i think there are some very interesting issues to cover there. >> let's get to that point. let's go to william first from florida, go ahead, please. >> caller: just as a footnote to the history of the 1940

campaign, one of the most politically courageous strong reporters -- supporters, rather, that willkie had in 1940 was a friend of mine, rawli n v. marvin, the mayor of syracuse, it was in the center of new york state, which was the political empire at that point. and that took a great deal of courage to defy the entire state political establishment which marvin did. unfortunately when willkie lost, dooley left no stone unturned to drive him totally out of political life and he tried to help willkie get going again in 1944, but eventually rawley said to me, well, my mistake was i bet on a man with a weak heart. but it should be remembered that he had a very, very strong

political supporter in the center of new york state and a friend of mine and i just think that's a footnote to the whole thing. >> william, thank you for the call. you bring up an important point that we touched on in the last hour. the relationship in 1940 and 1944 between tom dewy and wendell willkie. >> not a happy relationship. i don't think they ever reconciled nor did many of the professional politicians. the best indication of that is the 1944 republican convention, no one bothered to invite wendell willkie to speak, or to be a delegate. he was not there. he was exorcised by the party. >> another aspect of the roosevelt administration, the lend lease program, what was that? >> before we went in we agreed to help. so we gave money, loaned money to europe, sent arms. so that england could defend herself. that's the simplest way to put it. and then eventually we went into

the war. pearl harbor and that was an important spending program. that's an example of one. one of the things that's happening in this period is up until 1938 or so, '39, roosevelt is fighting with business. he's chasing them. john may nard canes said of roosevelt chasing business, especially utilities, why don't you either nationalize them or leave them alone? what's the use of episode cally chasing them around the lot. suddenly he needed business to wage his war. and instead of being the enemy, the occasional target there they were in the white house making aluminum, not being prosecuted, making airplanes, making boats, making material for europe and then for the u.s. and that was an important change for business. they knew they were allies of the government instead of antagonists. that is an important feature in the recovery of that period. >> in early 1941 wendell willkie

travels to london. how unusual is it first of all for a republican or democratic president to select his republican opponent to do this job? >> very unusual. willkie is traveling as a private citizen. he carries a letter of introduction to churchill from roosevelt and willkie sees london at a time when it's been badly battered by the german -- he goes to the cliffs of dover and sees the anti-artillery air guns. he gets a real sense of what this war really is for england and what the english people, the british people are doing to stand against hitler alone. and he brings that message back. he brings it back to the senate and he makes a very powerful case for helping england through lend lease. >> here's a portion of his testimony, wendell willkie before congress. >> if we are to aid britain effectively we should provide

her with five to ten destroyers a month. we should be able to do this directly and swiftly rather than through the -- of dubious interpretation. i am as much opposed as any man in america to undue concentration of power in the chief executive. may i say i did my best to remove that power from the president executive. personally, i would have preferred to see congress, whether through this bill or through others, instruct the president to lend or lease these things. >> amity shlaes, february of 1941, what was the country going through and what was wendell willkie thinking as he testifies before congress and realizes what's been happening throughout europe, especially in london? >> well, when we came out of world war i, this is a country that came out of world war i and

said never, never again, the trench warfare is senseless, there were 30% or more of the veterans were disabled in some way from world war i and america set its mind against war. and yet when we had the evidence, and that's what willkie was bringing home, of what was happening to britain, so like us in many ways, and the evidence of hitler's just utter audacity with poland and on and on and on, suddenly we knew we had to help. that was a big emotional change for the u.s. that was the reason for the republican isolationism. there was a sense to league of nations and there was a sense to isolationism because world war i had been so incredibly wasteful of lives and of resources in every way. but there comes a moment when you have to step in and willkie crystallized that for us. that's what that speech is, a crystallization of the need for

our entry. >> richard is joining us from san francisco as we look at the life and career of wendell willkie. go ahead, richard. >> caller: hello. i've enjoyed tremendously your author's book on the new deal. there were lots of books written, or some books written many years ago but she's taken up the cudgels of those that have some doubts. but one of the previous callers kind of attacked you from the left. i'd like to attack you from the right. i don't understand the love affair you have with wendell willkie. i just don't comprehend it. in the case of foreign policy, particularly after the war started he was an absolute disgrace. going to the soviet far east and looking at a forced labor camp and saying how wonderful conditions were, it's just a bit much. and i would have thought that the republicans would have been better served by someone who had a little more level head as far as our international commitments were concerned, particularly

after the beginning of the war. at the same time i think it's a bit much to champion a republican who the base really was very resentful of. so at any rate, that's my two cents. i'll hang up and listen to the comments of the author. thank you. >> richard, thank you for the call. and jim madison, is that sentiment pretty typical of what many republicans felt? >> a lot of republicans would have said pretty much that thing, and maybe in stronger words than that. they called willkie naive. they felt he was taken in. he was just a tourist. the soviets especially manipulated him. so did the chinese. he was inexperienced, and just not up to the level of international diplomacy and knowledge. >> and yet he had received more votes than herbert hoover in 1932 and landon in 1936. >> he had received a lot of votes for someone to allege that he had no support. this whole party, this whole television show, is a love

affair with wendell willkie because he's interesting on a number of levels. that doesn't mean he's perfect. that doesn't mean he's consistent. as we said before he's like an attorney. he moves from case to case. and those cases are not always consistent. in the forgotten man book he spoke truth to power, an important point, in 1938. so narratively that was important for that book. but every book is different. but i do like wendell willkie. we will all persist in liking him. we're making a cartoon version of the forgotten man book and the cartoonist made a bust of wendell willkie he got so inspired by him. there's something about willkie, inconsistent as he is, disappointing as he is, that is very alluring to people. i think because he talks about what's possible, not merely what's realistic. so he's an aspirational figure for us. at many points, and in many different ways. >> professor, richard norton

smith who's been working with us on this series said that essentially wendell willkie is the personification of this 14-part series, an individual that many americans may not know a lot about but had a very significant impact in his time. >> i think that's a very good point. let me just follow up with amity said there. i think at his best willkie brings us to our best natures. willkie asks more of us. and that's one of the things that i like most about him. he holds out the ideals of america, and ultimately the ideals of the human race, of the condition of the world. so there's a lot to like about willkie, even if you might want to think he's a little naive and uninformed at times. >> bill is next. still mountain, georgia, go ahead, please. >> caller: i take you back to the glamour and the excitement of that day in philadelphia at the convention hall. i was there. i was there with my father who

had a unique involvement at the convention. he sort of orchestrated what was known as the stampeding of the gallery. and as a kid i was up there with instructions on the cue to rise up and begin the chant of "we want willkie." of course this was before television -- well, television had just come on the scene but it was from a national standpoint, and particularly for the delegates to hear this raucous crowd from the gallery stampeding a convention, it put them in the mood although it did take a number of ballots to ultimately nominate wendell willkie. so it was -- it was fun. i have never forgotten the experience. >> bill, thanks for your call.

we should also point out a 26-year-old young republican from michigan, gerald ford, also in attendance and he talked to c-span about that in 2000 as he went back to philadelphia for another republican convention. >> that's right. that's right. >> did you want to talk about the excitement that willkie generated in the 1940 convention? >> not -- no, we're done. i think we're done with that topic. >> we'll go to oliver next from massachusetts, go ahead, please. >> caller: hi, i'd like to commend c-span, it's one of the greatest things on television. i didn't know a lot about wendell willkie. this is very interesting. i seem to remember his name was spelled with one "l" in my history books but i want to ask ms. shlaes, his mistress you talked about her, was she related to mamie or charles van

doren. >> she was related to those van dorens. she was an ex-wife of -- the reason she's interesting is not mere gossip, it's because she was his muse. we talked before about willkie's political identity. what is a liberal and so on? he began talking to this literary editor at the newspaper, at the herald trib, he started to write about the english classical liberals and the wigs. that was his way of thinking about what was wrong with politics in the u.s. and that it was too much about groups and too little about individuals and he started to write these articles, he started to talk to orita and his -- he got his political bearings and he began to speak politically and write politically and not just write articles but also begin to write manifestos and to meet people

who then began to back him. sometimes someone comes into your life who's a transition people and orita, without any disrespect to the willkie family was for him at that point such a person and helped him to clarify his ideas. >> to draw a connection, in your book the forgotten man she was also involved in calvin coolidge's book tour. >> she's a wonderful book editor, figures who appear over and again in coolidge and in willkie i'm discovering as i write the biography of coolidge, the great advertising genius also, bruce barton who wrote of coolidge that he represented the silent majority. we certainly associate it with agnew and nixon discipltime, th became a republican idea with barton writing of coolidge. there's a connection that you see with the literary people, the shapers, the marketers, the

thinkers, the intellectuals around the politicians, those people last a long time, sometimes through many candidates. >> let's to one more recording. set this up as he's in the white house, trying to figure out whether or not his relationship with orita van doren should be brought up as a campaign issue. >> this was a time when it was not common to reveal those relationships. reporters knew about those relationships. other politicians had them, including roosevelt himself, of course. and the gentleman's agreement was that you did not write about that. you did not report that. whether roosevelt is going to try to use that against will see in this campaign is i think what this tape is about. >> this is, again, one of the recordings with president roosevelt on the relationship, the affair, that wendell willkie was having with orita van doren. >> the people don't want -- and

so forth. they can use the law materials to the general effect that we'll let this go far. no matter what he was. no matter what -- now, mrs. willkie may not have been hired. but in effect, she's been hired to return to wendell and smile and make this campaign with him. now, whether there was a money price behind it, i don't know. but it's the same idea. >> professor jim madison, two points, playing dirty politics, the words from that conversation, and the president of the united states wondering whether or not edith willkie was hired to come back and campaign with her husband. >> well, the second point. i think all the evidence is that

edith willkie loved her husband and remained with her husband until the very end. it's also the case that after wendell willkie's death, several years after, edith willkie had a party in her apartment in new york city, she invited orita van doren to that party. these are adults behaving in adult ways, not ways any of us needs to approve but that's their life and their personal life. the other point i want today make as amity was talking about the relationship, it was a romantic relationship but it was a very, very important intellectual relationship and she was exceptionally important to his thinking and to his politics and to his life. >> we'll go next to donald joining us from utah. go ahead, please. >> caller: yes, i'm curious as to why wendell willkie's relationship with madam chang hasn't been discussed. they had a short affair. >> you just brought it up.

so we'll talk about it. what about -- >> i'll leave that to the hoosier scholar to -- when the journalist waited outside. >> thank you for putting that ball to me, amity. i think the answer is we don't really know what happened. we know that this is on the one world trip in late 1942. and it included a stop in china. it included a visit with shanghai check and with his wife madam chang. we know at one point in the evening willkie and the madam left by themselves and were gone for several hours. there's been statements by some people that there was a relationship there, but the evidence for that is very, very tricky. >> again, that was part of north africa, russia and china, the one world tour that led to the best selling book, one world. explain the significance of this second trip in 1942 for wendell

willkie. >> roosevelt sent willkie on a tour. he went all over the world, including to china, also to russia, to see stalin and also to the middle east. often to places that were also a little bit tricky, close to the battlefield. they kind of rolled around to the front in an american jeep. in russia. actually, with the russian general he said what are all you defending here, sir? and the russian general said, we're not defending, we're attacking. excuse me. so he was close right at the battle and that was an important fortifying expression of hope and support from the u.s. to these countries at that time, china in play at that time. big trip. and the book that he wrote, one world, was an enormous success. it didn't just sell 50,000 or 100,000 copies. i believe it sold close to a million copies. and david lillianthal, the old antagonist from the tba, if you

look at the correspondence in the lily library or in other documents asked wendell how come your book sold so well? the other politicians, everyone was in awe of what an imprint willkie made with this concept of peace now, one world. and why that happened was we were now in the war. pearl harbor had happened. we were in the war. and everyone very soon was thinking about what kind of peace we should have. after that what's in professor madison's book sketched out very well that right away, in world war ii. we were framing a way to make the world hopefully make it safe for democracy, make the next war and the next world war not come quite so fast. move towards bretten woods to do the monetary, all the ideas you hear about from the later '40s were formulating. >> david willkie, you've read

your grandfather's book, still available now. why did it resonate so much in 1942 and 43? >> there were several reasons. number one, he took it upon himself to visit all different war fronts at the same time. here we were in the second world war. and if we think about that time period no one person had traveled around the world. nobody had reported to the american people the struggles of different people around the world. why were we in this war? why did we keep going through this war? i want to go back to some of the conversations that were just happened between amity and jim and talking about my grandfather and his development. and over time he did develop. he did change in his thought process of what he went through and i think the american people did too if you think about the american people going back and looking at them and looking at the american people during the depression, and moving through, into world war ii.

this was a different place. and that's where one world came into play. here was a view into different parts of the world that people hadn't seen before. people hadn't traveled outside of their farms in the way that they -- that people are able to do now. and so easily. and to talk about these faraway places, whether it's baghdad, whether it's -- being on the front with montgomery in northern africa. all those places came into play and fascinated people. >> following up with that point, he said america is like a beleaguered city living within high walls. i have been outside those walls and he tells the story of what he saw. >> yes, he continued on to talk about, at that time, one important theme was that the national boundaries were becoming less and less important. countries in and of themselves. it was more commerce that was going to rule the day.

that was what i think the connection is that we see now is how that commerce really does come into play. you see that now in the national discussion, even here in rushville, indiana you have a company here that's selling things halfway around the world to baghdad right now. we -- that idea that wendell willkie had during those time periods is much of the world that we live in today and that's described in the book. >> if our audience is interested in reading the book, a book that was published 70 years ago, how can they get a copy? >> they can email here to the historical society. i believe that the email address is up. rushhistorical@frontier.com. let's go back to a couple of blocks to a home you spent many years going up through high school, here in rushville, this is the same home where wendell willkie came back and talked about his one world tour. ♪

>> but i want you to remember that we can only have one president at one time and one foreign policy at one time. it does no good to say of the president, of the united states, as was said last night, that he acts too hypocrisy or to subterfuge. no man, president of the united states, at this critical moment could act from such motives as that. the isolationists originally opposed the expansion of our navy. they opposed the expansion of our army. they opposed the passage of the lease lend bill. they opposed the passage of the selective service act. if the policy which they advocated had been adopted the united states today would be facing a victorious naziism in a

worldwide conflict in which we might ultimately be destroyed. >> david willkie, as you hear and see your grandfather, just a few blocks from where we are, at the historical society and the message that he was delivering, those residents of rushville, indiana back in 1942, your thoughts. >> well, he wanted to bring those thoughts directly here to the american people, into middle america, to say that there are those other places that become so important. and i think it's common wisdom right now, if america had not entered the war at the time that it did, what would have europe looked like at the time? would hitler continued to have gone on in his conquests? what would stalin have done? kind of following up on that. so for wendell willkie to be here in rushville, indiana. if he couldn't talk to the people here in rushville, he thought that this was most

important to go on to other places, other cities throughout the country. it would be much harder to do. >> and his remarks, 70 years ago this month, october of 1942, did the book face criticism? >> it did. it did sell millions of copies. many people liked it very much. but the criticism was deep and endures in a sense. america was, as we've said several times now, very isolated before the war and there were many during the war who still believe that america was best as america alone and not part of some larger entity like an international organization, the u.n. as it came to be known. there are many americans of this generation who had never been out of the country, who had never been out of the state or even the county in which they were born in. so the provincialism, the lack of knowledge about the world is central to what willkie is trying to do in this book in explaining in clear and forceful language why the people, the farmers of russia, for example,

he says this, how the farmers of russia lived not very different from the farmers of rush county, indiana. they are human beings. and we have some obligation and some interest, self-interest and larger interests to understand that and to act on that. >> we want to thank the rushville historical society for hosting us here tonight. we'll continue to provide the email if you want to get more information about wendell willkie or if you're interested in getting more information about purchasing the book, one world. back to your phone calls, though, wayne is joining us, winston salem, north carolina, good evening. >> caller: hello? >> yes, please go ahead, wayne cl cl. >> caller: i'm the last surviving member of the white house staff. i was there for a couple of years. i was in the mail room. i read the incoming mail. and the entering into the war was a very heavy issue at that time. the public was very, very much against it. we received from seven up to

15,000 letters a day, most of which opposed entry into the war. only pearl harbor turned the public opinion around. but i also want to go back to the election, when willkie gave his concession speech. i will never forget how tired he sounded. how heavy his voice was. when he said i tried my very best to defeat franklin roosevelt and i could not do it and he apologized to the nation for not doing so. so i just wanted to make a comment that i was an actual person involved in the issue at that time. >> wayne, thank you, you've added an important dimension to our conversation. another amazing call. >> wanted to mention one thing about one world. the anti-u.n. people hate it because it does lay out the

framework for -- of you name it, international organizations of all kinds. but there's also a thick strain of democracy in it. so you see how many impetuses came out of willkie, one was international organizations, some of us are less hot on that but the push for democracy is very important up to today and that's the astandingly modern part of one world when you read that, that he sees through the governments to the people, whether they're in russia or they're in the middle east with that democracy deficit we spoke of before. it's very similar to the analysis we have today of the problems of the world to finding a way to democracy for people, to when there's violence, as we saw with khdafi, and victory for democracy or not? president obama was ambivalent about that, it's a hard call because it was so violent. wendell was looking for these things in "one world" as well. >> kevin in california.

go ahead, thanks for waiting. >> caller: could you have your guests speculate on what might have happened had wendell willkie won the election? >> we'll go to professor madison on that point and also the follow up to amity shlaes. >> as much as i admire and respect wendell willkie i'm personally glad he did not win. we don't know what would have happened. the odds are pretty good that roosevelt was a far better wartime leader, far better prepared and experienced to lead this nation at war than wendell willkie would have been. >> next call is kevin, actually, go to michael next in fargo, north dakota, go ahead, michael. >> caller: yes. i was a little late getting to the program, but as i understand it, wendell willkie has never held political office so that makes me curious if his vice presidential nominee was chosen for political experience to, i don't know, help balance the ticket, or how he came about to be appointed.

>> thanks for the call. wendell willkie's first choice was not selected. and so it came to the party establishment to come to wendell willkie. how did this all come about and who ultimately did he choose? >> mcnary was a traditional republican in many ways, more -- far more acceptable to the rank and file of the republican party, the republican party leadership. so i think the caller's guess is right on. >> jim in washington, d.c. you're next. >> caller: yes. very interesting program. i would like to address two questions that were raised that were not possibly answered. one was that wendell willkie was named in the news week article in 1967 as a model for a candidate that year. that model was george romney. he was the candidate in the

republican primary. but he dropped out because he made a remark about the vietnam war. but he was an industrial executive, head of american motors. and had never really served in public office before. but he ran as a -- in the early days of the republican primary against nixon and then did not, of course, win. and the other question -- >> but he did serve as the governor of michigan. please go ahead, continue, caller. >> caller: well, just one other quick one. the other candidate -- or the other president who ran for a third term was u.s. grant. he had been president for two terms, stepped out for a term and was a candidate, at a republican convention in 1880. he lost to james garfield. so that is the other president who did seek a third term.

>> thank you for the call. amity shlaes and also we had teddy roosevelt who ran for another term under a different party after he left the white house. >> very much involved in this with coolidge because coolidge served under harding. and harding unfortunately died. coolidge was vice president, became president, then won in his own right in 1924. coolidge could have run for another term, example, the same issue confronting roosevelt, easy call, a republican, democrat always runs again when they're a popular incumbent and coolidge chose not to run. the famous decision by coolidge, which is normally attributed to personal depression or exhaustion. what i'm discovering in researching coolidge is that coolidge chose not to run because of george washington because absolute power corrupts absolutely. because he saw over time an executive gets too used to the office and the yes men. that was the concern that people

had over fdr, that willkie was the expression of as well, that you do become too much -- you say -- the state is me, the more you serve, the longer your serve in the office. >> you can get more information by logging on to c-span.org and clicking on among our websites the contenders series or go to the contenders.c-span.org and get more on this program and our 14-week series, looking at presidential candidates who ran for office and lost but changed american history. next is helen, joining us from cape may, new jersey, go ahead, please. >> caller: well, i'm a college teacher. my students have been assigned to watch. and they will be so envious that i'm getting to speak to amity shlaes. i loved your book. i'm looking forward to the coolidge book. and my question is, what was the percentage of the electorate that came out to vote in that election, was it a big percentage or not? and again, can't wait to read

the coolidge book? thank you. >> neither -- >> thanks, helen. we do have the electoral college totals and it was a landslide for franklin roosevelt. >> we don't know the share of the turnout and we apologize for that. we're going to supply that on our websites within 24, helen, we're sorry. we owe you. >> there you see the results. wendell willkie receiving over 22 million votes, franklin roosevelt over 27 million votes. jim madison? >> well, it wasn't a landslide, as amity said earlier. willkie did better than his republican predecessors but it was a clear victory for roosevelt. >> david willkie, another aspect about your grandfather, his view of civil rights in this country, 20 plus years before we saw the civil rights movement led by dr. martin luther king. >> my grandfather was certainly ahead of his time when it came to thinking about civil rights and the rights of all people, it was part of his creed, part of

his code. but one of the places i wanted to show you was just a campaign piece in the 1940 campaign where he talked about just race relations in a very direct and raw way. and this was an advertisement that was used in african-american press at the time of how he reached out to that part of the electorate. >> again, we're trying to always get a sense of what was going on in the country. let me ask you specifically in this part of the country in indiana, the kkk, in its role in the society here. >> certainly the kkk had a very strong presence here in indiana. there was a major push to push them out, especially within the republican party. people like the helmke family was instrumental in that, with also following on the willkie footsteps of what came to be. there was division, in small towns, there was an african-american population, certainly in this town of

rushville and still continues to be and throughout all towns. but the races didn't mix, didn't necessarily intermingle, constantly. there was always a fearful nature of it all and that's from wendell willkie, not only his thought process coming beforehand, before the election, but also afterwards of what that took him looking throughout the world on the one world trip. >> what about this aspect of his life? >> david is being unduly modest about his grandfather's position on civil rights. he was well in advance of just about everyone, every notable person in this country, perhaps mrs. roosevelt, eleanor roosevelt would be the exception. he was very much ahead of his time on civil rights. and it comes out of some of the same things that are in one world, about democracy, anti-colonialism, he was strongly opposed. he insisted that colonialism had to disappear in the name of

democracy. he insisted that equality around the world could only be achieved if there were equality at home. so he connected this international one world idea with the necessity of justice for all in the united states and he walked the walk. he spent a lot of time working with the naacp, he worked with hollywood film makers to remove the horrible racism in hollywood films in the '30s and '40s. in all sorts of ways. wendell willkie was an advocate for racial justice, a supremely important advocate, long before most americans, white americans were at that position. >> john from columbus, ohio, you're next. >> caller: y'all just took the words out of my mouth. i was just about to say that, you know, i was just about to say, what did wendell willkie say about the african community in indiana at that time, during you racism was, how the ku klux klan was out there. you all just took the words --

i'm like, they just took what i was about to say. i also wanted to say one thing. i love watching you all's show, the contenders. i learn every day as a young african-american man, with a young family, that owns a home, and i try to teach my stepson and my daughters and them about the history, about presidential things. and people who can come up and you can do -- i tell them every day, you can make it, you can do it, you know. and i'm just thankful that y'all have this show on here and talking about this great man that, hey i don't know anything, my grand dad, he's 89 years old and he tells me everything about people, about history and about america but i'm so glad y'all said that about the african-american community in indiana which was a racist -- sorry about my language, very racist towards african-americans at that time in the 1940s. and i thank y'all so much for

bringing this up. and please, keep programs like this coming. thank you. >> thank you for the call. and david willkie, he's talking about his grandfather, and what about your grandfather as you hear that sentiment? >> well, he thought that everybody was responsible, just from their ownm merit ok asy. that was his dream, that anybody in the world should have that individual freedom. he thought if you helped somebody some place else in the world it would come back and help you but it was through the hard work and struggle that we will better ourselves here as americans. going on to the race relation part, certainly he had a long -- even after he died wendell willkie, the naacp was housed in the willkie freedom house in new york city. you know, they kept that mantle

that was there just because he was so far out in front of every place else. when he was in, as gym madison talked about, being in hollywood and pushing the ideas of race equality, certainly as we look at what came up in the '50s and '60s, one would think what would have been different if willkie had become president? >> the other question is, would this republican party accept a wendell willkie, his brand of politics? we asked that question to senator dick luger, republican from indiana. >> i doubt whether win dell willkie would win today, in part because he was what i would call a moderate, in quotes. he was a person who really was looking out for the good of the whole country. and there was not the same sharp partisan fever attached to his candidacy or to his rhetoric.

he had a very sound business attitude and that's why he was successful. he understood the american free enterprise system and job creation. the things that are very important to us as we try to look at economic recovery now. >> amity shlaes, the comments of senator dick luger and wendell willkie's politics and the republican party today. >> wonderful comments from the senator. i would beg to differ on the question of whether a businessman candidate would resonate today. he would. maybe it's herman cane. maybe it's someone else. but what there is among people looking at both parties is a desire to go down to the bottom level to find someone who started a firm, or works for a firm, to come from the outside to look at the economy, not from washington. so very similar mood. when you've had a long period of non-recovery you look outside of washington for the answer. quite similar. and that's why someone like that would get a reception, i would argue. >> he ran, again, in 1944,

briefly. >> briefly. and not at all successfully. again, as we've said, because the republican establishment just had no use for him because of his continuing support of roosevelt after the 1940 election. in fact, there was some talk, not much more than talk, of roosevelt who had his own troubles with southern democrats, especially of franklin roosevelt and wendell willkie coming together and forming a new political party. there's an idea to think about for the future of america. >> next call is erica in washington, d.c., go ahead, please. >> caller: hi, c-span, thank you so much for doing this, it's a great show. i just have a bigger picture policy question if we could go back a little bit. i think i understand the types of things that shaped wendell willkie's economic beliefs and his background. but do you know if there were any specific events or ideas that really shaped his foreign policy prior to the events of world war ii, that really came about and brought that to the

nationalist view? >> the foreign policy of wendell willkie. >> i would mention his family background. and their own experience that willkie's own experience fleeing prussian militarism. there's a story the willkies tell of the grandfather being beaten for no reason by a prussian soldier, that arbitrary exercise of authority they deplored and came here to the rule of law, the willkies were lawyers. and that comes through their children, especially wendell. so you say german-americans who sought freedom and wanted to preserve freedom. >> david willkie, did you want to respond to that caller's point? >> well, it's certainly within the family, it's thinking about wendell and his life growing up, being part of world war i, in his time period, in the army. opened his eyes. the intellectual life of the family. when wendell grew up in the whole family his father would wake up his children by reading

shakespeare quotes every morning. and that's how they would start their day. so it was a constant era of intellectualism, of thought process that allowed him to look outside of just his own surroundings in elwood, indiana. >> duncan is joining us from rootstown, ohio. go ahead, please. >> caller: i was just curious about any relationship willkie may or may not have had with hugh we're long. >> i know he defended hughie long -- we haven't talked about this. willkie defended all sorts of individuals who were unpopular. he defended american nazis. he defended american communists. again, this is his kind of liberalism. the freedom of speech, the freedom of thought, the right to be an american, and hold many different kinds of views, very different from his own views he

was in my judgment a great hero and a great patriot in that regard. >> born in 1892, and david willkie how did your grandfather pass away at the age of 52? >> well, he had a series of heart attacks at the end of his life, certainly in the living at the time he was a workaholic. he never stopped. diet, exercise and genetics all that we know much more today about those things, certainly played a role in his death. >> i think wendell willkie was an exceedingly hard working person. he was 24/7. he also lived hard. he smoked. he smoked heavily. i've seen pictures of him with camel cigarettes on the desk and we know what kind of coffin nails those are. he drank heavily. especially in his later years. he did not live what we would now understand as a healthy life. >> and david willkie, he is buried just a few miles from where we're located, correct. >> yes, in east hill cemetery. it's a beautiful site that was described in the new york press

as being looking out over the prairie. although we're not quite prairie here, open site. at the cemetery site, has a book, a stone granite book laying out, and talking about his creed, about how he lived his life, and what he thought was the future of the world and what it should be. talking about the ideas that we mentioned about equality, about the -- that america was the place to be. why? because you could dream. and in america you could make those dreams come true. >> amity shlaes, if you could ask him one question, what would it be? >> how do we bring our country together this time so that we have a political process that yields economic recovery? that we get pascaling each other names to formulate a policy that gets the country to grow again. >> hugo is joining us, stanford, k connecticut, welcome to the program. >> caller: first of all, i met

wendell willkie at my grandfather's home, along with thomas e. dewy, two very, very fascinating public per sonnages. i was 10 years old at the time but i do remember distinctly of personalities. my grandfather was the publisher of the newspaper in this country. but i won't get into history. he was an fdr republican, my grandfather. must great uncle was a socialist. the poincy wt is i was terribly impressed as a young boy with this man. i was always in the political environment, he had cautional,

hiss tore historical, et cetera, in my family. this man impressed me a great deal. he is the reason as i became eligible to vote that became a republican. what disturbs me today is that the republican, frankly, the first time i voted was for eisenhower when i was able to vote. subsequently, i became a young man republican club member, vice president in new york. and then subsequent to that, out of disillusionment, i lost my contact with the republican party. i hate to say this because there were so many elements in the republican party personified by wilke and dewey and others that impressed me. i was just wondering among your

panelists whether or not they could at least determine why we lost the essential -- how can i put this? i don't know how to put this in political terms. i'll put it in human terms. how we have lost the fundamental understanding of what capitalism, political association with capitalism is and ultimately with the nature of what's going on in our society today? particularly among the parties. >> hugo, thanks for the call. next week we'll talk about thomas dewey as we bring you our live coverage from the roosevelt hotel in new york city. to the caller's point? >> i understand what the caller is saying, i think. there are days when i would agree with him. but overall, most of the time

and over the long run i do not agree with that rather pessimistic view. i'm still a great american optimist. my optimism is the hope that there are going to continue to be candidates offering us choice that's he offered us in 1940 and especially the wendell wilke after 1940. >> what your grand father's leg i >> this are many aspects. first there is the thought about commerce as we discussed before and to the caller's point, thinking about does politics and business, do they have a place at the same table, coming together? as we look right now in the economic times that we have, i would argue definitely yes. and that is part of his legacy. there is also the legacy of thinking about race relations and what it means to be a citizen of the world and understand how the rest of the world affects us here in places like rushville, indiana, all

those comes and cull munn ate together to say, yes, can an outsider come in and rise to the highest levels? i would argue, yes, it can happen again. >> why is wilke important? >> he's a game changer. >> the author of "the forgotten man" and jim madison at indiana university here and to david wilke, the grandson of wendell wilke, we thank you for allowing us to carry this program from rushville, indiana. as we look at the life and career of wendell wilke, he passed away in the fall of 1944. here's is how united newsreel reflected on his life. >> wendell l.wilke, the election

of 1940, taken suddenly at the height of his vigor at 52. dominated about i popular acclaim and a phenomenal overnight rues to political em nens, he won for his fourth right courage. he spent the last years of his vigorous life in an effort to promote neutral you'll understanding and good will among all nations. he talked with churchill in london and shared experiences with britain's average folk. he visited and talked with the people of russia of the middle east and of china. renewing the strong faith in unity among all people.

>> a great american that will be sorely missed in the critical years ahead. >> week nights this month on american history tv, it's the contenders. our series that looks at 14 candidates that lost the election. the lasting effect on u.s. politics. . tonight we feature the life and career of the presidential nominee thomas dewey. watch tonight beginning at eastern. and every weekend here on c-span look. c-span3. >> every saturday at 8:00 p.m. american history tv on c-span3

go unside a different college classroom and hearing about the revolution and civil rights and 9/11. >> thanks for your patience. >> the impact of the coronavirus and watch professors transfer teaching to a virtual setting to engage with students. >> gorbachev did most of the work to change the soviet union. but reagan met him half way. reagan encouraged him, reagan supported him. >> freedom of the press, i should mention, madison originally called it freedom of the use of the press and is indeed freedom to print things and publish things. we refer to institutionally now as the press. >> lectures in history on american history tv on c-span 3. every saturday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. it's also available as a podcast.