contenders." >> wherever he goes, he speaks out on the issues. he answers exactly w we are every goes, he speaks out clearly and forcefully on the issues answers questions, explains exactly where he stands under masticate foreign policy. everywhere he goes the people are responding with enthusiasm for this new and different kind of statesman. barry goldwater has been constantly on the go, it's a grueling schedule. and whenever he can, he catches a quick nap here with his daughter peggy. and with his wife peggy. soon it's back to the campaign,

where barry goal is calling for courage and integrity in meeting problems. he's calling for men to do nothing policies, policies based on the dynamic principles of the republic. he's calling for rebirth of individual freedom. -- we reject there for the ideas of the economic planners in washington that a group of people sitting in washington can plan what the country is going to make, where it's going to be made the quality of the product the price of the product, the wages to be paid the profits to be made etc etc. we know that the system and simpler terms is called socialism has never worked in the history of the earth. it is not working today in countries where it is been tried >> republican presidential candidates barry

goldwater campaign in 1964. 'c-span's "the contenders" coming to you from phoenix, arizona. , the goldwater institute as we look at coal waters challenge to president lyndon johnson and his political influence during the second half of the 20. century we welcome you tonight and we welcome our audience at the goal water institute and our three guests who will walk us through the political career of marital water beginning with rick charleston. he is really a nation magazine and the new republic and a new yorker, and he's also the author of the book nixon land. and drc olson who is also our hostess president of ceo of the goldwater institute. she preserve lee city services on the cato institute. her articles of appeared in washington journal and a national. we and don't make you grew up here in arizona he served two terms in the state legislator is turned one term in the senate. he's produced 90 documents

including barry goldwater and american life. thank you all very much. rick pearl steam let's begin with you. he called himself a different kind of a candidate for a different time and election year. how? so >> i think that the thing that made him most different is that he was a reluctant presidential. candidate if we think about all of the people running for president in 2012, we cannot say that any them are reluctant. it's a full-time job. it is all time consuming. but ever since 1960 when the first people came to marigold water and try to draft him and said we want to make you a presidential candidate, he would say that's a lasting a. my mind i don't want to run for president. once he even told chicago tribune i do not have the brains to three president i don't think. and over and over, again he said we don't care, we are going to draft you. that's pretty much what happened he was pretty much drafted by full suffers followers who raised money and built an organization on his.

on >> we will talk this later about the sassy nation of john. kennedy how did this influence his decision to go ahead 1964. while he was thinking about >> inching forward in the fall of 1960. three one of the reasons for was president kennedy introduced a civil rights bill that was actually beginning to build a strong backlash. there were people talking about president kennedy being vulnerable in 1964. gold water was close to kennedy, he like kennedy and when kennedy was assassinated, it is very hard to reconstruct this context in our minds but it was so harrowing for the american people. people blamed extremism. people blame the kind of vociferous ideological politics that americans did not want to believe was part of their political system. and very goal water in mediately lost. interesting fact it was another month and a half before he answered the call of one more

group of people come into him and begging him saying it was his duty to support the conservative cause. and he finally reached a. do it >> in this book they came out the conscious of the colors of it was century was a manifest of why he was. running and the ideology that shaped. him and that piece of film we showed you at the top of the program, he talked about freedom and free enterprise and a failed socialist experiment the democrats were pushing in the 19 sixties. >> right, well barry goldwater stud for one thing and he was very clear about it and that was freedom. that book today is just as relevant as it was when it was written 50 years ago. barry would say, circumstances change, principles to not. and when he was getting ready to run for office, he said you know as i survey the landscape and as i look around and all the different questions that might occur to me, the most incursion important concern

that i will have, the most important question that i will ask myself is are we maximizing freedom? and that was the beginning and end of his political analysis. >> take us back to 1964 and walk us through barry goal water in the u.s. senate for two terms. what led him to this point on the national stage? >> really in a sense the simplicity of his perspective. simplicity as compared to more complicated politics. we have to go back. you have to look at barry goldwater in the context of his times. is finally came here in the 18 fifties. he grew up in 1890 and dusty little phoenix that had about eight or 9000 people at the time. life was more simple here than it wasn't east. our zone >> arizona wasn't even? estate >> when he was born it was not a state for two or three more years. but just lifestyle and this was

still the old west at that time. it wasn't new york city and whatever. so you have to look at barry his family history wish met a lot to him, from 1890 through up to world war ii, what was life like here? it was very simple. it was very unsophisticated. it was black and white, it was right in wrong, it was the old west. it wasn't sophisticated east coast. i bring that up because that is what shaped, were you to get these views? which i call small libertarian which are very small views about rain wrong at this in that. but it was the context in which he grew up. now you asked me a question i can't remember what the question was? >> what led us to 1964 and what shaped his ideology in the 19 fifties until around 64?

>> well truthfully it was what i just. said it was simple. i don't mean in a negative way but it was sort of simple. there was right and wrong, there was good and bad, and this in that in the other. you get into world war ii which he served in very much, remember world war ii was the major right versus bad thing. then you get into the cold war, us versus the soviet union. all of these sings from goldwater's perspective and from the context of the time were pretty black and white especially as compared to today's politics where you don't know quite who is doing what to whom and to what. so he was the personification of good versus bad, right versus wrong, whether you agree with him or not that was his personification of. that and i think that had a lot of appeal by the team the

fifties and certainly 1964. canada >> and you met burial water are gonna come back later ask you about your impressions of him. let's focus on the 1964 race. because you had other names in the race. you had a government scranton to pennsylvania was in and out again. nelson rockefeller spent a lot of money to try to secure the nomination. walk us through how these candidates challenge burial to water and how he ultimately got the nomination. >> while the republican party was a very different institution that it is now. it was controlled by moderates and even liberals. the whole entire in ideology of the pardon system is different. each party had in it both conservatives and liberals. the democratic party had very conservative members from the south and for a liberal members from the north. the republicans had an isolationist conservative wing from the midwest and a liberal wing from the republic from the northeast. what the berry goal water

presidential campaign was all about was trying to take over the party from the bottom up, the bottom up being this conservative ideological activists. they had their meetings in country clubs in very fancy places. it was presumes that someone like nelson rockefeller was the heir apparent for the republican nomination. the idea that a conservative could've won a nomination was absolutely seen as impossible by the pundits. because the pundits then said that america was ensconced within a liberal center left consensus. that wind white eyes in our not only embraced the new deal but even expanded it, opening up something like the department of health education welfare, instituting the institute which was a huge federal outlay, it was just presumed that the conservatism of the 1920s, which was seen as something

that have gotten us into the depression was no longer relevant to modern life. >> in your, book you point out two key primaries were critical in 1964. oregon, which nelson rockefeller one and california, which barr eagle water one. >> california was an absolutely fascinating knockdown, drag a political fight. and i talked earlier about barry goal water had these impassioned supporters who would do whatever they want even if where eagle water told not to do it. these are people who were from groups like the john birch society, somewhere segregationists. they were also far-right extremists. they were basically willing to knock on doors until her knuckles were bloody. they were willing to sabotage other campaigns. it was seen as a fight for civilization itself. because the other candidates,

the liberal candidates, nelson rockefeller were seen as the sort of harbinger's of the socialism that they believed was destroying civilization itself. it was incredibly impassioned. >> two years after richard nixon lost his governorship, you still a player in the republican party 1964 and according to yearbook use trying to figure out a way that the party might turn him if they did not want to rockefeller or buried or water. >> you mentioned the oregon primary, he actually established a secret boiler room in a basement in which richard nixon was in which people were hired to make phone calls to voters saying, when the be a neat idea if richard nixon was drafted to be president? this is richard nixon were talking about right? someone found out about it and the camera crew showed up. richard nixon was kind of scheming in scamming he was always hoping that goal water and then rockefeller were knocking themselves out. the reason cartoon that showed

them rockefeller and goldwater having a shoot out in the middle of an old western town and nixon was rubbing his hands, and richard nixon's political undertakers parlor. [laughs] we is always want to hear from you. our phone lines are open. if you live in the eastern or central time zones two zero two seven three seven zero zero zero two if you live in the pacific time zones. we also will get questions from the. audience it will show you political ads for 1964. but you remember this. campaign how did lyndon johnson run against barry goldwater? what was his tactic? >> rotten us. no, johnson ran a very smart campaign. because he made goldwater the issue as a polled pose to the issues being the issue. barry was painted as a crazy

person. there were things put out by the johnson campaign that some group of psychiatrists in america came out with some statement that barry goldwater was mentally ill, some of you probably remember that, that he was crazy. and then of course, the famous ten nine eight seven, you know the nuclear bomb commercial which only aired one-time but it got a lot of attention. it was designed by bill moye or 's actually. it was a totally do the guy in kind of campaign. >> it's important to realize the nuclear stuff did not just come out of nowhere. he made a very strong argument that a craven fear of death had crept into the american psyche. -- and by that he meant the people were so afraid of nuclear war that they did not want to

confront to sue the union. while there was a good reason people were afraid to confront the sovereign union because all at war with the soviet union would've meant the end of civilization itself. barry water never flinched and he thought that it free people out that if we are afraid of going to war with the soviet union even it means nuclear war, we are on a path to surrender. that was a genuinely frightening notion, i specially after the cuban missile crisis when people came within hours or so they thought of armageddon itself. so he did have some very unconventional ideas about the necessity of confronting the soviet union head on military alert. >> we'll talk a little bit later about that iconic daisy app. we put together some 1964 adds to get a sense of the issues in personality that campaign.

this particular phone only rings in a serious crisis. even in the hands of a man who is proven himself responsible. vote for president johnson on november 3rd. >> the people ask mary goldwater. i have >> i have a question for mr. goldwater. we keep hearing about hot words, cold wars and brush fire wars. ivan over brother and some are my classes are now serving in the armed forces. i'd like to know if mr. goldwater rocky percent of. war >> let me assure you here and now and i've said this in every corner of the land throughout this campaign and i will continue to say it, that the goldwater administration will need once more the proven policy of peace through strength that was the hallmark of the eyes in our years. the eisenhower approach to foreign affairs is our approach. it served the cause of freedom and avoided war during the last republican administration. it will do so again. we are the party of

preparedness and the party of peace. >> in your heart, you know he's right, vote for barry goldwater. >>another weapon. on october 20, fourth 1963 burial water set of the atomic bomb. merely another weapon. merely another weapon? vote for president johnson. the stakes are too high for you to stay home. >> graft! so kendall's! ♪ ♪ juvenile delinquency! crime! riots! here are what barry goldwater has to say about or lack of moral leadership. >> the leadership of this nation as a clear and immediate challenge to go to work

effectively and go to work immediately to restore proper respect for law and order in this land and not just prior to election day either. america's greatness, it's greatness of our people can let this generation and make a new mark for that greatness. let this generation of americans set a standard of responsibility that will inspire the world. >> in your heart, you know is right. vote for barry goldwater. >> when you look back those campaigns for 1960 for your reaction. >> well a lot of different thoughts come to mind when i see that array, including how many of these commercials inspired modern-day political commercials. when i take away, is the slogan in your heart you know he's right. i think the american prove that 15 years later when they elected ronald reagan who campaigned an identical

platform but with a little bit different packaging and a little more gloss. and this messaging, rickie were talking about about the soviet union and goal water had too much bravado and it was scaring people. that was exactly what reagan ran with and of course we have history to tell the tale that that was the right public policy to pursue. and i think that speaks a lot about the timing and what is happening socially when you are campaigning in how important that is and how much that influences ultimately whether you get through with your ideas. >> two different approaches. tony shorts as was done behind a lot of the lyndon johnson approaches. a different tactic by the goldwater campaign. >> when i look at the goal water as, i think about how atrocious they were. the goldwater team is not very professional for all kinds of reasons one of them being barry goldwater wanted to have people and brought him he felt comfortable with. he hired his arizona friends who were not national political professionals.

the lead in johnson advertisements for made by an advertising agency. they've done the volkswagen acts and i advertised one of the guys who produce one of barry goldwater goldwater the barry ads which is in talking to eisenhower. it was a total bust. they got all sort of telegrams said i'm never gonna get his commercial again. his name is chuck lexington's team he has passed away. he said i never had a lot of experience with tv. he said he never watched that was a goldwater campaign. >> we are going to be showing during the course of this evening some of the documentary that you have put together -- some of the you worked with barry goldwater how long to get this put together? >> talk probably specifically on the project probably six months. >> was there one thing that you did not know about burial water

and his politics are you learning putting this together? >> his language? [laughter] >> elaborate. >> he has a very colorful language. i was going to tell a story, but i really have to clean it up. i will tell the story. i will clean it up. one of the last times i was with him, i walked into his living room and he was sitting in an barca lounger watching tv. i said, how are you doing? he looked at me and said -- here is the clean up part -- the f'ing racoons are s'ing in my fireplace. and i said? what people don't know but we have raccoons in the desert here in arizona. i don't even know until that day actually. a mother raccoon had climbed up on its roof and come down the chimney. what you call the thing in the fireplace? the great.

and gave birth to a letter of baby raccoons. this wasn't in his house this was in his ham shaq we had his radio little building next door. the raccoons were doing their business so to speak in the fireplace. that was his comment. the effing raccoons harassing in my fireplace. i'm not know let's go to martin from texas. fair oaks ranch texas. as we look at the life of career burial water in his 1964 presidential bid. >> good evening martin. good >> evening i happen to be a retired navy captain from illinois and i'd like to tell my friends about the history of how many times in the cold water accidentally but i was first influenced being a democratic young man from

illinois where my cousin became the supreme court justice, head of state of illinois, attorney general. well i will not go. on it was a world war ii texas a &m colonel in the air force -- excuse me, army and later airforce that influenced me to vote for barry goldwater. interestingly enough, i like to say to my texas friends, i am one of the few guys left that remembers on monday hearing fdr when i was 7 years old give the day of infamy speech. i ran into barry goldwater a couple of times in a little restaurant that that he loved potatoes on connecticut avenue. one time i was there my boss to happen to be a civilian world war ii pilot, name stafford. i introduced barry goldwater to my boss. my boss said, why did you introduce me to the senator? i said, he knows another robert stafford. he got such a kick out of this.

how long have you known barry goldwater? i said i have only met him a couple of times in the in the restaurant. anyway, the man was a fantastic individual. the only time i went to the senate was when i was a young naval officer was when barry goldwater was presiding. this guy was truly an interesting and beautiful man. one last memory is that i went to wright patterson air force base, happen to be going there on business. as a civil engineer. my wife and young son were there. i said, why don't you go down to the museum. that was the day that barry goldwater in jimmy stewart dedicated the first wing of the museum. they both came by and shook hands with my wife and son. i wished that i had that experience to meet the other brigadier general jimmy stewart. anyway, i just wanted to share

that on veterans day. what a wonderful man he was. thank you for the call. he was a pilot. he was a ham radio operator. he had a lot of obvious. he took a lot of pictures. >> 'it is important to recognize on veterans day that a lot of powerful rich people -- barry goldwater which barry goldwater was -- one of the richest families in the city used their power to get out of military service. he used his power to get into the military. when world war ii started he was a pretty old guy. he took on duty in a very dangerous air route. they called it the aluminum trail because so many planes went down. he has this fascination with flying the latest military hardware. one time in 1964 he had this very sensitive meeting with lyndon johnson and about how they would handle the issue of race riots. lyndon johnson spent hours an hours preparing and there was

this whole memo that was going to guide is incredibly negotiations. the meeting lasted 15 seconds and then barry goldwater was like, when do i get to try this new plan that a 11 that's coming out? >> "let's go back to the campaign. it was a landslide for lyndon johnson. why such a disparity? was barry goldwater misunderstood in the campaign? >> well a lot of reasons. first of all, people were terrified of the prospect of nuclear war. that he never really backed down from. lyndon johnson was dishonest tarnishes like vietnam. he said i'm not just an american boys 7000 miles to do what asian militia do. there was a bumper sticker that showed up the next year, and said if i voted for barry goldwater there would be a war in vietnam. i voted for barry goldwater, and there was. but by the same token, gold waters rolls on the of the

ideas in the role of the government were not popular. his ideological time had not come. also, i mentioned the atrocious campaign he ran. i found a memo that they fired the research staff the rnc. i found a form letter they sent out to political science professors in every state. it's a dear professor, please send us any books or pamphlets about the political say should situation in and then it said insert state here. this was not a very professional operation. in addition to your calls, we're welcoming calls from the goldwater release institute. >> i am a retired cpa. i have lived in central phoenix for 53 years. as a person who knew barry goldwater and worked with him in the community, i knew him to be a man of impeccable integrity and who is ticket -- dedicated to the proposition of personal responsibility. when he ran for president, it seemed to me from my

perspective that the pundits you mentioned earlier went out of their way to print and broadcast atrocious dishonest eight months about. him there is a national magazine to this day i do not take because of the things they said about barry goldwater that were out right on true. my question is, why did the national press and so many prominent people go out of their way to be so vindictive against a man who based upon what has already been said was going to lose? >> i would say a couple of. things first of all a lot of his followers were very very frightened. so you can charge that to bury gala water you can say that that wasn't his fault. he did not like to distance himself from people who were devoted to him. also you have to understand the context of the times. fascism and nazism was a living

memory for just about every adult. the idea of people getting together with such rage against liberals. when barry goldwater did a very famous speech at the six 1960 convention in which he said conservative let's grow. up recanted this party back. he said we need to defeat the democrats working for the destruction and this nation. passions were very high. political passions of that magnitude were greatly feared. in an exaggerated way. he was kind of caught up in that in an unfair way. it had to do with the context of the belief that if was people -- darker angels were allowed to give reign within the american political system, we would not be able to control the consequences. this was a time, of course, when a civil rights terrorism in places like mississippi.

people were burning down churches. people were assassinating civil rights workers. people were saying why is it in a place like mississippi where all of this stuff is going on was voting 87% for barry goldwater? >>. ,. . >> thank you very much. thanks for doing this,. my question to you is, was he one of the libertarian or conservative. and there is a different if you look at it. >> drc olson? >> you're right in there with that question, i think that

barry goldwater, and his book was called the conscious of the conservative. he felt like he was a conservative, that he was a true conservative who understood that this nation was founded on the concept of constitutionally limited government and that was true in all spheres of life that you could not pick and choose where you would have government involvement. if it wasn't in the constitution, that it wasn't constitutional and therefore the government should not be involved so today, i mean there are a lot of libertarians that wear that mantle. a lot of different folk miss the tea party movement and candidates for president. i won't be the one to define him as a libertarian or conservative. he used the term conservative, and i think that what he stood

for was as close to what the founding fathers stood for as any prominent person in our history. >> this book, what personality came through from barry goldwater? what did you learn how to who he was as a person? >> i think what people have been saying, that he was a guy who shot from the hip and he didn't care what people thought of him. you know, much to his detriment >> unidentified speaker often. people talk about him as an honorable man. but by the same token, i think ideologically he could be very naive. so i mentioned the civil rights terrorism that was going on in mississippi. the fact that people were being shot in cold blood for doing things like helping people register to vote. he never denounced that. he said his appeal to people of the south was i'm not going to

as an arizonan tell people in mississippi what they should do. when civil rights are being that egregiously violated, i think there's a kind of which side are you on question. so i think that his heart was in the right place. he believed he was doing the right thing. but i think he had a certain myopia when it came to a real moral ideal that he avoided at that time. >> i want to talk about the libertarian conservative. you have to look in the context of his time. i wouldn't be surprised if during his life, and certainly while he was in the senate, he probably never heard the word libertarian. that wasn't even a word. that was heard of at the time. i call him a small l libertarian, because he basically believed in freedom of choice as he came later in his career after politics.

he was outspoken in favor of gay rights. a woman's right to choose. all sorts of things like that. and some of my friends would say oh, barry got senile and he became a big liberal in the end. he changed. he didn't change. his philosophy was always it's up to you as an individual to have the right to decide, whether it was about gay rights or abortion rights or labor unions, the whole thing from the 50's where he's totally misunderstood, i might note. he was a small l libertarian. today we have, you know, all sorts of politicians and presidential hopefuls running around talking about libertarian, libertarian this and that. >> you've done a perfect job of setting up this next piece.

to give you a sense of the personality and style of barry goldwater. >> he talks so fast. you know, sitting there trying to listen to you reminds me of trying to read "playboy" magazine with my wife turning the pages. [laughter] >> >> unidentified speaker i happen to think i'm in a pretty tough race. i'm spending the money that i legally can. that's the answer. in fact, it's a stupid question, if you don't mind my saying so. >> i'll read the record. >> i never said that airplane wouldn't fly. >> you wouldn't. >> people all over the country keep talking about legalized gambling. and i thought we already had it. it's called election day. [applause] >> i now realize

what it takes to be a president. it helps to have a brother who sits at the gas station drinking beer all day. when i was campaigning many that razor-thin election in 1964, i should have told everyone that dean was my brother. [laughter] >> you wanted to jump in earlier. >> he actually pioneered what would become social conservatism. he gave a very sharp speech about the moral decay of the nation.

it was at the mormon tabernacle in salt lake city. but he also used some of that salty language that we need to censor when he referred to the christian rights. jerry fallwell, said in 1981 that all good christians should be very concerned about sandra day o'connor. if i may, he said all good christians should kick jerry fallwell in the ass. >> paul, you're on. >> i was just curious to know what your panel thinks. how would he have handled vietnam differently than lyndon johnson did? would he have escalated the war, as lbj did, or would he have

seen it as a civil war between the knot and south vietnamese? >> thanks for the question. >> whether he would have been successful or not, i don't know. but i was of that generation. vietnam war under lyndon johnson was gradualism. we we're going to tighten the screw and eventually they're going to give up. yeah right. i think if barry had been president, and i'm not saying it would have been a good move or a bad move. i'm not sure. but i think he would have come in with what later became the colin powell doctrine.

if you're going to go to war, you have to go with the attitude that you want to win it in the next hour. that's his attitude. then he said we lost the war in vietnam for one reason. the politicians tried to run the war. in his quote. and politicians don't know their ass from a hot rock about running a war. that was his quote. i think he would have taken a far more aggressive approach to it, as compared to johnson's gradualism, which dragged out almost as long as our current wars. >> what kind of a president would he have been? >> barry would have been something we don't see too often today. i think he would have been a very honest president. i think he would have been very candid as he was his whole life. that was the way he campaigned how he was after office. i think that candor is something that people loved about barry goldwater and it's one of the reasons that so many people sought out barry goldwater, even after he was in

office and he was so well-respected and liked by so many people. because you knew with barry goldwater where you stood. he always put his principles first. he kind of had a tenure to sometimes messaging and what people might think. and he put his principles before partisanship, before party, before politics. it's hard to say whether he would have been able to work with congress that way. but it's an exercise that i would have liked to have seen. >> we are in week 10 of "the contenders" series. we are in phoenix, arizona. we have an audience here as well. we'll get another question right up front. >> thank you. kevin lane. i recall barry was interviewed in the 1980's when russia had just gone into afghanistan. his quote was he had been in those hills and a right-minded goat would not wander into those hills.

he had forecasted that russia would lose. and obviously, we're quite bogged down in afghanistan. so my question to the panel is maybe some other examples of his wisdom in his life as far as being ahead of his time. >> you're shaking your head. >> i think that is a great question and goes back to what kind of a president would he have been, and one of the things we know he would have done differently is he would not have vastly expanded the welfare state in america. he was fighting against that. he said there were all kinds of federal programs that were unconstitutional that needed to be repealed. he was unabashed about that. he certainly did not agree with the levels of taxation that we had then, let alone the levels of taxation that we have now. he was very against the type of progressive taxation that was put into place and has become more and more predominant. he felt like taxation should be minimal and fair per person, so if you give 10%, i give 10%. rick gives 10%. rick is going to pay 90%,

you're not going to pay anything. so those are some major differences. also, since that time, and certainly lyndon johnson worked on this as well, but this vast expansion of government into all of these social arenas, including education, for which there is no constitutional authority. all of those things are things that barry goldwater would have fought hard against. >> let's go back to where your book begins and talk about his influence here in arizona as he tried to build the republican party in the late 1940's. >> it's a fascinating story. it was a democratic state. when he ran for the senate in 1952, i think that there were 92 members of the lower house. it might have been 96, and two of them were democratic.

he came from a republican family, his mom was a americanner. she was a republican. also, for the new defense industries that were opening up in arizona. >> and before he entered politics, he did what? >> he was an executive at the family department store. he was actually, interestingly enough, we talk about him being a straight-shooting guy. he was actually the marketing guy for the department store. but he -- a guy named eugene polian moved to phoenix and he was a newspaper publisher. >> he was actually dan quayle's father-in-law, and he really wanted to help build a republican party, and also

build a nonpat government to build up what was a corrupt town. barry goldwater was involved in both. in 1950, he was the campaign manager for a guy named howard pyle, who ran for governor, and being barry goldwater, he flew howard pyle around the state in his plane. he would descend like a bronze god to these little towns and people would say wow, which one's the candidate? but here's the thing. when he ran for senate, he decided that he would run for senate by building a republican party. so he recruited people for every office in the state. someone said why are you qualified to run for senate in arizona? he was such a first citizen of arizona, his answer was i can call 10,000 people in the state by their first name. he build the republican party in arizona. >> and i'm going to call on you for just a moment, because you remember going to the goldwater department store. >> correct. >> when i first came to arizona in 1970, i worked for the old adams hotel, which was in downtown, and i bought a bathing suit at the goldwater department store on central avenue. and at the time, you talk about him being in marketing, they gave you with every purchase a little vile of water that has gold flakes in it. and everybody that had flown in from texas to buy that hotel all when i went back to the hotel all ran down and bought a bathing suit so they could get

a vile of water with gold flakes in it. so he was good at marketing. >> i just want to comment about the 1952 election. barry ran against earnest mcfarland, who was the majority leader the united states senate at that time. barry had supported macfarlane in previous elections raise money for one all that. barry didn't like or was upset with harry truman, which is ironic today because what former president was barry most like, harry truman, actually. , give him hill harry actually. >> but barry told me many times, he says i ran for president, i knew i didn't have a chance in hell of winning. but even in the senate, he didn't think he had a chance of winning that 1952 senate race. at all. so maybe he was building a republican party.

he had been on the city council for two years and then he sort of decided to run against harry truman in most senses. but he didn't. he was not some big political organizer who said let's build a republican party here. it was sort of natural. but it wasn't like he had some big plan to do that. he was just running thinking he didn't have a chance in hell of winning. >> well, we came across some early film of senator barry goldwater after he was elected to the senate. but before coming to washington, d.c. let's look. >> speaking of washington, a place where you're going there is a great deal of talk on the part of the republicans doing the campaign about communism in washington and the mess in washington. do you anticipate finding anything like that when you take your seat in the new

senate? >> well, i don't know. i can't say. i think that there must be communism in washington, but i would hate to stand up and say there is without knowing more about it. >> let me put it this way, is there any fear or concern about communism and about the so called mess in washington among the people who voted for you out in arizona? >> i think the fear of communism is one of the underlying reasons for the success of the republican party in this election, all over the country. >> now that the republican party is in, do you think there will be any letting down of this concern, any complacency on the part of the people who voted for you? >> i think there's already happened. >> in what way? >> i am amazed to walk around new york to find in my own communities -- well, general eisenhower has been elected. they new deal has been thrown out. we can go back to our work the same as usual. and as always happens in politics, the man who benefits the most from good government goes on with the least interest in it, and that's mr. average

citizen. why >> are you going to do anything to point out the need for continuing concern over the situation in washington? >> i'll never be quiet about it. >> from 1952, never be quiet, that became his mantra as senator and candidate in 1964. who helped him win the 1952 race? >> he had a very slick operating for a campaign manager named filler to arizona in the name is steven shadow. he wasn't necessarily the most savory guy. he once wrote a book on "how to win an election. " he would do things like -- they sent out 50,000 postcards all hand signed by volunteers from barry. he would do things like -- he said if the situation is propitious, you can get millions of people to vote for someone who has the absolute

opposite ideology that they do. so he was a very tough campaign manager. >> we have a question here in the audience. please introduce yourself and go ahead. >> good evening. my name is richard muser. i was 16 months old when we move to arizona, so i claim to be a native. it's a pleasure to hear the information about senator goldwater from so many experts. the reason i am here is because in the second grade, i met a gentleman named bill in the queue and we have been friends since then. in 1964, i was a lowly specialist fourth class in the army in fort benning, georgia. okay i wasn't old enough to vote at that time because arizona was 21 and i was only 20. when i listened to the senator discuss using low yield nuclear weapons in vietnam, it made sense to me as a military person, and it made sense to a lot of my fellow soldiers at

the same time. the point that the johnson campaign exaggerated, the impact of using these huge hiroshima bombs was a total exaggeration. he was an air force man. he knew what low yield meant and what it would do. and my question is what was wrong with the term low yield that i believe i only heard it once or twice. >> rick, you wrote about that in the book. >> yeah, i actually talked to one of the is this is at the laboratory design some of those low yield nuclear weapons. he said it was absolutely insane to believe that you could contain the explosions from those weapons. so i'm not so sure that it's true. >> i want to comment, only

because doctor dick needs are brought this up. we grew up in the same neighborhood over by 25th drive north of thomas road. in about 1950 through 1954, that period, my father would wake me and my brothers up at 4:00 in the morning on a couple of occasions. we would go up on to the roof of our house and sit facing north. my dad had his watch and he would tell us there's one minute, 30 seconds. and we would see nuclear atomic bombs explode at the test sites aboveground, nuclear bombs exploding on the test sites in nevada, which was, what, 300 miles away. i mean, four or five times, i thought -- i'm one of the few people alive today who's ever seen a nuclear bomb explode. maybe some of you have, too. hopefully nobody else ever will again. but this was a ritual, we'd watch the nuclear bombs going

off in nevada. the point is, i thought why are we dropping nuclear bombs on nevada? i thought they were on our side. [laughter] but realizing that whether it was 250 or 300 miles away to those test sites. it would light up. it's like summer flash lightning, if you know what that means, except it the flash in the light would stay in the air longer than summer lightning. wow, that's 300 miles away. think about that. that kind of thing is what contributes to the great fear of the soviet union and nuclear war. >> let me put a domestic issue on the table. . organized labor and the legislative record that senator goldwater had. >> extremely important in barry goldwater's rise. of course, arizona became the

first right to work state, the circle that he was in, his friends, people like dennis mc kitchle, he was the labor lawyer for the big mining company. phelps dodge. he argued before the supreme court. the idea that fighting labor power was essential to conservative politics was absolutely part of what barry goldwater was all about. he basically rose to national prominence in the late 1950's on two kind of wings. the first was he gave a speech attacking dwight eisenhower for a big budget, which he called squander bus spending and the siren song of socialism. the other was there was a big labor hearing in the late 1950's run by senator mcclellan. and it was meant to take on jimmy hoffa's corruption. barry goldwater kept on interrupting. he would say things like well i would rather have jimmy hoffa stealing my money than walter

rutha stealing my freedom. walter rutha was head of the united auto workers, who pioneer things like the automatic cost of living increase. he was fighting to make the operations and corporations much more transparent. he was the most political aggressive labor leader in history. by taking on someone like walter rutha, businessmen flocked to barry goldwater as their savior. these were the guys, these businessmen were the people who ended up organizing the group that under barry goldwater's nose without him being involved at all put together a conscience of conservative and first put him forward as a presidential candidate. >> can i disagree with what he said? >> sure. >> my experience with barry and interviewing him, he wasn't -- i'm convinced he wasn't against unions.

i mean, the small libertarian thing. the said many times in our shows, to join a union or not join a union, it's their personal choice. he was most vociferous about corruption in the unions and he really didn't like the -- what do you call it? the closed shop, where you had to join a union in order to have a job. >> doesn't like weak unions. >> well, -- >> i'll build on what you're saying there. i think that's absolutely correct. >> it's 2-1. >> he believed that unions were an expression of human freedom. if you joined them voluntary. he believed wholeheartedly in freedom of association. he thought that was great if you wanted to join. what he didn't believe in is what unionism has become, which is compulsory, forced membership. and that was something that he

vehemently opposed. so you have a situation today where they're trying to take away the right to vote by secret ballot when you're forming a union. that was something that he opposed. there was the issue of -- what was his other big issue >> right to work. >> yeah, right to work. where they were making membership compulsory and it was a condition of employment, which he said that is against everything we believe in as americans. he fought for right to work laws in the states. but he didn't oppose the idea of associating unions. he opposed this idea of what unions have become, which is forcing people to do things against their will, completely contrary to everything that barry goldwater believed. >> marvin has been waiting. we'll go to him next in los angeles. >> thank you for your program. i'm wondering if barry goldwater were alive today with his life span of points of view, could he get the nomination of

the republican party? that's the first part of my question. and number two, based on the extreme right wing state of some leaders in arizona politics, as in the election last tuesday were jerry lewis defeated a leader in the senate, how would barry goldwater have stood in the ideas of the current plan republican party in the state of arizona? thank you very much. >> thank you. so two points. first, could barry goldwater get the nomination today? >> no, because he would have been vetoed by the christian rights. i'm looking over some of these quotes. 'they're stunning. this is what he said in 1981. can anyone look at the carnage in iran, the bloodshed in northern ireland and the bombs bursting in lebanon and question the dangers of injecting religious issues into the affairs of states? he believed very firmly by the end of his political career that people who enter politics from a religious motivation are

so impassioned and so impervious to compromise that it made the give and take necessary for politics impossible. which is so ironic, because in 1964, extremism and defensive liberty is no vice. moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. that's what he was accused of at the time. but he did come to an extreme firm and extreme passioned notion, he didn't even want pat robertson to run for president in 1988. he thought that was a violation of the separation of church and state. >> let me give with the first sentence in the first chapter of "conscience of a conservative. because barry goldwater said "i have been much concerned that so many people today with conservative instincts feel compelled to apologize to them. >> yeah, this book "conscience of a conservative, " i think to this day remains the best statement of what it means to be a conservative in this country.

he is so clear. and i think earlier on, you had talked about -- you used the word "simple." i think for me, effs thinking prince -- i was thinking principled. not simpleton or simplicity. but it was clean. it was clear. and those principles are beautifully outlined in that book and it is just as good of a read today as it was back in the day. >> as an author and writer, i have to give some credit to the guy who actually wrote the book, which is a fellow named brent those all. barry goldwater might have read it, but he definitely wasn't involved in the production of the book, which is a fascinating story i tell in my book. >> let's go to the 1960 convention. as he spoke to the delegates at the republican convention, which nominated vice president richard nixon. >> as an american who loves

this republic and as a member of the senate, i am committed to the republican philosophy and to the republican candidates. it is my belief the people of this land will return a republican administration to office in 1960. i mightse] i might suggest in all seriousness that you and i will not have discharged our full responsibility unless we also returned and the effect of republican congress. i would not imply that our party is the repository of all virtue, that only republicans can see the truth. that only republicans served noble motives. i must insist that those in control of the democratic party have announced their total commitment to what i regard a

lopsided side of man and that puts americans and a shameful condition of everlasting dependence on the state. [applause] i have visited the people in the cities, states, and the towns of our nation. i can tell you that the men and women who face the future with courage. they are eager to accept their responsibilities.

it is what to do, work and sacrifice to defend our freedom. it is our path as delegates of the 1960 republican convention to make certain the republican voter is provided with an opportunity to make a meaningful choice between the two philosophy is competing today for acceptance and our world. the philosophy of the stomach or the philosophy of the whole man. >> >> as he watched barry goldwater in 1960, how did that set the stage for his stake in 1964? >> >> it is the red meat of the conservative movement. he ended his speech by saying, grow up. let's get to work. i think that is the last line of his speech there. he was not, who was that republican guy here ran campaigns the last few years? >> karl rove? >> he was not karl rove and all that type of thing at all. >> but he had feelings of, let's get to work. let's take this back.

he had no use for richard nixon, especially later. probably no use for rockefeller either. he was saying, let's get to work. >> >> i wrote my senior thesis in 1971 on the treatment of the barry goldwater campaign. i had the good fortune to spend a full day interviewing the office of the door wide in his office of manhattan. he had vivid memories of the weeks he had spent on the campaign trail with barry goldwater in preparation for the 1964 installment of his famous series. he told me he came away with the tour with great admiration for barry goldwater and with contempt for the liberal media he was a part of and what he

thought was doing so much to demonize barry goldwater and distort the case that barry goldwater was trying to make to the people. barry goldwater he told barry had tried earnestly to educate people about the dangers of concentrating power. the specific issue that led to his opposition to the civil rights bill that year. white also said that when goldwater came to fear discussing civil rights issues further on the campaign trail might worsen racial tensions, he met with president lyndon johnson and the two agreed to take the issues out of their campaigns. white said the agreement really cost barry goldwater votes among a lot of middle-class whites. one must think, he told me how dismayed he had been when he got back from new york after his barry goldwater interval.

his liberal media friends received him as if he were a jew just to escape from a nazi death camp. he astonished those men are saying what a worthy candidates barry goldwater was. i thought you would like to know. >> to work for your call. >> he know, it is really interesting of the civil-rights issue that barry goldwater did get a bum rap from the media and continues to get one when you hear people talking about his civil rights record and how he did not vote for the civil rights act or he did not speak out enough. >> really, he must not have had that in his heart. that could not have been further from the truth about to who barry goldwater was. in the department store, they have integrated the store long before anyone else had done that. he really did have a color blind heart.

anybody you meet will tell you that. anybody who met barry goldwater would tell you that. one of the greatest stories that i love about -- that relates to this is -- we do not know if it is true or not. i was talking to his son, but the way it goes is that he went to a very fancy golf course and wanted to play a round of golf. he said, you cannot play here because you are jewish. he responded by saying, you know, i am only half jewish. do you think i can play nine holes? >> let me say something about civil rights real quick. >> barry goldwater and

rosenzweig as city council members integrated the airport in phoenix which had been segregated before. after world war ii the department of defense asked barry goldwater to organize the arizona air national guard which had not existed before. he said, i will do its on one condition that it is racially integrated. they gave in and said "fine." in the senate he voted for civil rights legislation consistently into the early 60's. the only what he voted against was the final one. he voted against it for one reason and that was because a thing in there called the mrs. murphy law that would have said

that if mrs. murray wants to rent her spare bedroom out, that she could not discriminate. he has a longer history of pro civil rights activity. >> let me ask you about the relationship between barry goldwater and john kennedy. both can to the senate together in 1952. >> they had affection for each other. one barry goldwater was rising in the early 1960's, he was very much compared to john kennedy. >> this handsome, charismatic guy. there was a famous store they talked about campaigning together and writing the same campaign trail and debating each other lincoln and douglas style. this is often taken as a testament of this old civil time. i suspect that john kennedy was speaking cynically and thinking if he could get this guy on a platform and forced into mouth his what were then unpopular views, i can wipe the floor with him. >> >> history changed in dallas on november 22, 1963 following the assassination of president kennedy. senator barry goldwater said this. >> he was a very decent fellow. >> he is the kind of an antagonist that i have always

enjoyed. he would fight like a wildcat for his points and his principles. there was never anything personal about it. i imagine that i have debated the president more on the floor of the senate than any other man. it never affected our friendship. we had some rather violent arguments in sessions of committee. it never affected our friendship. that is the kind of man you respect. the kind of man you like to work with and politics. >> after the assassination and before he entered the race in 1964, how ambivalent was he about running? >> he was ambivalent toward running. >> one of the reasons he was so ambivalent after the assassination was because he knew the public would be so on

interest ability and the idea of having three presidents in the space of one year would be too much for people to care. >> a question here in the ring. >> i had the good fortune of being in the formation of the goldwater institute. i want to make a comment and a question. one of his unique features is he never sought publicity. that made him unusual for a politician. >> when webber tried to form the organization even with the perspiration of congressman james kelley and others, he was still reluctant. we wanted to have a reward in his name. he was reluctant again to step forward and have the award named after him. he is unusual in many ways. my question is, is there anybody to compare him with?

we think of ronald reagan or maybe somebody like bob taft. is there anyone else we can compare barry goldwater to? >> >> not alive today. >> i would say two people. ron paul and ronald reagan. i think he compares to ron paul and that ron paul is a very straightforward speaker who does not really care what the press thinks, but he just speaks from his heart about his ideas. it is his downfall. it was part of barry's downfall. also reagan likened that the core of his ideas that barry goldwater ran on ronald reagan letter implemented. ronald reagan had a smoother style. he was mr. hollywood. he had that wonderful smile and people loved him and he made people laugh. he ran basically on the same ideas that barry goldwater did and it brought one in a

landslide. sometimes when people say people did not like barry goldwater's ideas are there were not ready for them, i do not think that was a fair assessment. i think the assassination plan a key role at that time. i think the poor messaging barry goldwater barry did was a factor. i don't think it was the ideas. i think it was the way they were sold. >> >> i think the liberal congressman from illinois speaks with equal forthrightness. >> bruce is joining us from california. go ahead with your question. >> thank you for this program. >> yes i am a liberal who has only voted for one republican in my life and that was barry goldwater. i guess my attitude at the time, kennedy was such a young get a new generation, articulate and johnson seemed to be so much the old politics. two things i wanted to mention that i have not heard here, a choice not an echo was one of his big things i thought. the other point i wanted to

make was there was a book called "a treason" that came out to run the same time. this was basically john birch society. we had the birchers then and the birthers now. barry goldwater never really separated himself from that group. the night before the election, ronald reagan came on to boost barry goldwater's candidacy. a lot of the comment afterward was, maybe we got the wrong man. >> >> thank you for the call. we will talk about ronald reagan in about 20 minutes and show you a portion of what he spoke of toward the end of the 1964 campaign. >> >> this was absolutely scandalous itself. it was a book and argued every set back in america ever had was because there were secret communists and ultra in every part of the government. 20 million copies of this book were circulated. rich businessmen would buy up thousands and thousands of copies and hand them out everywhere. they are right. barry goldwater did not denounce this stuff. he would rationalize it by saying that people know there is something wrong out there and this is pushing in the right direction.

maybe i disagree with that, but he never denounced the john birch society. i think that was one of his achilles'heels. >> he humored extremists. >> he has been quoted so often. you used the word extremism is no excuse for my spread that came in san francisco. we want to show you that but put it in some sort of a context of what he said before and afterwards. here is barry goldwater except ink the nomination. >> those who do not care for our cause, we don't expect to enter our rates in any case. [applause] and republicanism,

it's so focused, so dedicated, not to be made fuzzy in a beautiful by until inking and stupid labels. i will remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. thank you.

[applause] thank you. thank you. let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. [applause] the beauty of the very system we republicans have pledged to restore and revitalize, the beauty of the federal system is in its reconciliation of diversity with unity. we must not see malice in honest differences of opinion. no matter how great, so long as

they are not inconsistent with the pledges we have given to each other in, and through, our constitution. [applause] our republican cause -- >> how did that resonate among the republican electorate? and the voters at large? >> richard nixon wrote in his memoirs that at the very moment when he heard him say extremism is no vice, he felt sick to his stomach. the reason for that was that they had an incredibly divisive convention. barry goldwater won the most delicate votes by far because they organized it so well. his grassroots insurgency. many people in the party felt like they had stolen the party. that moderation, the republican party was a moderate partner. it conservative had won by hooking by crook. what you are supposed to do,

your role in the acceptance speech was to bind those wounds together of a divisive campaign so that people could unite and go forward. instead he seemed to be pushing in people's faces the notion of extremism which at the context of the time meant things like the birch society. like southern segregationists changing their democratic affiliation to republican affiliation. so the republicans themselves, in the context of the kennedy assassination where the idea was at the bottom had dropped out of americas civility, people longing so much for normalcy, really seemed like something that was frightening and strange. it was perverse. and his numbers went way down. by the way, a week afterwards there was a terrible reilly in harlem. it increased peoples sense that

goldwater was associated with frightening forces in american life. when people were writing in harlem, people were saying things like, well, they're shooting black people. this gold water stuff is happening. the paranoia, unfairly surely, that surrounded barry goldwater in this atmosphere where people felt that the springs were being loosened in america's consensus. >> matt is joining us. from miami, florida. good evening. welcome. >> good evening. thank you for taking my call. in 1986 congress passed a scholarship named after very goldwater. and i don't know if the irony escaped them. based on what i heard on the panel. that is federal scholarship [inaudible] -- i don't know too much about the

scholarship. the story of him filibustering his own scholarship. if you could just comment on his views of public education, his feelings about the congress awarding him the scholarship. >> thank you matthew. , dark seat? >> i had not heard that. that's something i would like to learn more about. it would be ironic if it's true. if it's true, it's ironic. he looked at the constitution, and did not see any role in their given to the federal government to be involved in education. he spoke out against federal involvement in and it education. he said i don't want the federal government to educate my children. i don't want the state government to educate my children. i want to educate my children. and i think if we can bring this up to modern times what is so interesting, and is a great tribute to barry goldwater is that arizona is one of the leading states and offering choices to parents, school

choice. so that people are not forced to go into government schools. but can use their tax money, take that to private schools. or use online tutoring. things like that. i think jerry would've loved it, then you crazy about it. this was something he believed. look, at bottom he believed in freedom. and nothing is more fundamental than being able to direct how your children are educated. certainly -- do you know if the scholarship part is true? have you heard it? >> i've heard something. i remember after the senator died, there was something about congress passing something in science and technology in his name. i cannot remember what it was. it was a scholarship thing. it is vague in my mind. >> you cannot talk about barry goldwater in the 1964 campaign without bringing up the ad you mentioned before. it aired once. on september 7th, 1964, labor day monday. it aired on nbc, cbs, and used

in subsequent stories. it's known as the daisy ad. >> one, two, three, four, five, seven, six, six, eight, nine. nine. >> eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. >> these are the stakes. to make a world in which all of gods children can live. or to go into the darkness. we must either love each other or we must die. >> vote for president johnson on november 3rd. the stakes are too high for you to stay home.

>> 50 years later, they're still talking about the ad. why? >> well, it was devastating. at the time. but he never mentioned gold waters name. he didn't need to. keep in mind that the whole campaign up until that point focused, the democratic campaign, on the word extremism. extremists, extremists, extremists. over, and over, and over again. this was just another piece of goldwater is an extremist. help what is into a nuclear war. i'll say something about that ad. that ad was written, designed, by -- what's his name? >> tony shorts? bill more years? >> that's not true. >> that is absurd. >> let me finish. barry goldwater, in my show, is

on camera. he said that he was behind it. he said i tried later, years later, afterwards, to try to talk to bill more years about it. it was a pretty rotten deal. i tried to talk to bill, he never returned my phone call. okay? susan, his second wife, told me after, later, that bill was in town for something. not related to politics. she had an occasion to talk to him. bill said to susan, and it's susan saying it, that bill said yes, it was a shame. i tried to get a hold of barry to talk to him about a lot of times. we could just and never made up. which susan was implying was baloney. >> i can say categorically having read through every memo how the advertisements were created in 1964.

bill had nothing to do with creating it. >> he was press secretary at that time? >> yes, involved in the campaign. he wrote memos about the ad. he was involved in the media strategy. but the idea he created the ad is not true. >> a question? >> ron from minnesota in arizona, depending on the season. mr. pearl seen, the subtitle of your book is and making a consensus. i'm interested in what makes something a consensus? what makes it unmade? could we make a new one? >> excellent question, i think that in a sense consensus would have to appear in quotations. the myth after world war ii, certainly since the eisenhower administration accepted the new deal as a basic template. eisenhower said that anyone who filled with social security would never live another day. expanding the wealth their

state. the idea, i might even read a classic statement of how the american consensus was thought of at the time. the dean of records wrote in the market some partisan review, there's no basic disagreement between intellectuals, bankers, trade unionists, artists, big businessmen, beat knicks, professional people, and politicians, to name a few, or between the economic classes. there are no real critics, no ideas, fundamental differences of opinion. the idea that the western world, not just america, had converged on the idea of the welfare state. as a way to organize the world, was seen as permanent. and what is so fascinating to me, why i call it before the storm, is almost immediately in the 1960s americans are at each other's throats. we're debating the role of the

state in the most fundamental ways. that's the american consensus. in 1964, that's where we begin to see these fissures come apart. barry goldwater is a central figure in that. >> if you could, in a minute, it's a huge topic -- the issues of civil rights in the 1964 vote. barry goldwater voted against it. it became one of the issues in that campaign. >> it couple fascinating points about it. we talked about the commercials. they had a bunch of television commercials in the can boasting about the bill. and putting out goldwater for not voting. they didn't run them. the idea of a backlash of against civil rights was already present. in california, in the book i published a headliner in the new york times, white backlash doesn't develop. people were terrified that people would vote for barry because they were so terrified of civil rights. in california, on the same day,

lyndon johnson won by 1 million votes. there was also a vote for a referendum. that referendum was on open housing. by 1 million votes californians voted to reject the idea of open housing. to reject a law that said you cannot discriminate on the basis of race to whom you rent your home. the idea of a backlash against civil rights was blatant at the time, became the most explosive issue in american politics and the decades to come. >> if you look at what happened in 1952, when dwight eisenhower won, and you look at the south. the impact that this summer rights vote had. the democrats of 1964, what is the difference? >> of course there is no one south voted for the democratic party. if you voted for republicans,

they had a toehold, they would monopolize the black vote. there was panic about it. we've seen gone with the wind. the shift began in 1964. five southern states voted for goldwater. 87% in mississippi voting for goldwater. when lyndon johnson signed the civil rights bill, he said i'm signing away the south and the democratic party for a generation. there was one of the most profound hinges in the entire electoral alignment of the united states. this out now is a premiere literally republican region. that is because conservatives led by very goldwater decided to retreat from the idea of the federal government advancing civil rights for african americans. >> two years after gee he ended the program, the one that ronald reagan was hosting, the one before he became governor

of california, he was involved in this campaign. we have a portion of the speech that he delivered. it's titled a time for choosing. late in the campaign. as ronald reagan talked about the virtues of barry goldwater. >> i think it's time that we ask ourselves if we still know the freedoms that were intended for us but the founding fathers. not too long ago, two friends of mine were talking to a human refugee, a businessman who had escaped from castro. in the midst of his story one of my friends turn to the other and said we do not low how lucky we are. the cuban stopped and said how lucky you are? i had some place to escape to, and in that sentence he told us the entire story. if we lose freedom here, there is nowhere to escape to. this is the law stand on earth. and the idea that government is beholding to the people, and has no other source of power, and it's the newest and most unique idea in the long history of man. you and i have a rendezvous

with destiny, we will pursue for our children this best and last hope for man. we will keep in mind that barry goldwater has facing us. he has faith that you and i have the ability and the right to make our own decisions, and determine our own destiny. thank you very much. >> from october 22nd to october 1964, what is a history behind that speech? >> first off i don't know who actually drafted the speech, he probably knows. but that's okay. very himself, i have to give a little background here, barry is and extemporaneously speaker. he's dramatic and wonderful.

but he did not like prepared written speeches, and somebody wrote that speech for barrie. and submitted it to him, and my source on this is both barr bob goldwater and some other historians, and he read it and give to bury, and berry said i'm not good given giving written speeches. ronald reagan can do this a lot better. and they sent over to ronald reagan to deliver it on tv or wherever it was and reagan did, and somebody said that was the beginning of reagan ending up as president, which was that speech which was written for barry. >> it also led a number of california executives to coach him in 1966 >> he had given similar speeches in the

early'60s. >> the people who had been in charge of basically handling the money for goldwater's television account were so fed up with the terrible commercials, that basically they said if you let us spend it the way we want to. we are going to basically sequester this money. they played hard ball.

that is how they got ronald reagan on the air. after he gave that speech, telegrams poured into the campaign. money poured into the campaign. people started talking about ronald reagan as a gubernatorial possibility. david said it was the best political debut he had ever heard of since the speech by william jennings bryant. >> the relationship, was it a close relationship or was it more of an acquaintance? >> ronald reagan, his father was a wealthy physician and knew goldwater. there is a whole fascinating

thing that these people who ran his campaign did not want ronald reagan to give it this speech. it is a little different. he had set thinks about social security that barry goldwater had gotten in trouble for earlier in the year. basically what ronald reagan said to barry goldwater, why don't you listen to it. if you object to it. he do not have to run it. barry goldwater heard it and said this is great, i don't see what the fuss is about. the rest is history. >> good evening. >> good evening, sir. he pretty much answered my question. i was wondering what mr. barry goldwater thought about the way he gave the speech that night. also, mr. barry goldwater and ronald reagan and william buckley, did they ever have difference of opinion as far as conservatism or were they in accord? with that, i thank you for taking my question. >> thank you. >> william f. buckley was actually shut out of the goldwater campaign late in 1963. it was a power play by a fellow by the name of -- it was power politics. william f. buckley on several different occasions that he did not think that barry goldwater would make a good president. he was not ready to be president and not smart enough to be president. now, ronald reagan to talk relationship with william buckley is complicated.

the panama canal, they had a famous debate in which william f. buckley argued that it was a good thing. ronald reagan had basically run his 1976 campaign on the idea that it was a bad thing. these are the personality clashes that any of these guys are going to have. >> can i recommend a great book for this question buckley's last book that he published is called "higflying high. " it is one of the best books ever written and bottled water. i recommend it. >> -- written about barry goldwater. >> i recommend it. >> i have two questions for the

panel to address. i wonder if by engaging over directly about the issue over the it not, barry goldwater could have forced lyndon johnson to come up with an exit strategy and hasten the war's conclusion. >> let's get and will follow up on your second one. >> i am not sure that -- there were forces trying to persuade lyndon johnson to do a lot of things about vietnam's. none of them prevailed. >> i am not sure he could have had much influence on lyndon johnson. i do not know. i did not say expert on that. we have some vietnam veterans in the crowd. maybe they know. >> my second point is we have heard a lot tonight about his consistency. >> in 1996, he endorsed bill clinton for president. i would love it if the panel could be behind the motivations of that endorsement.

>> bob dole had been around a lot in republican politics. i would not be surprised if bob dole had angered him somewhere along the way. i do not know the back story behind it. >> he also endorsed a woman named karen english for a congressional seat in arizona who was a democrat. >> she says, when asked about his consistency, one of my favorite stories is about that. he endorsed someone who was a fiscal conservative but was a democrat over a republican who he thought was a big spender. the republican party chairman in arizona called him up and said, you are speaking out too much. you need to get in line. if you don't stop endorsing this democrat, we are or to take your name off of the republican party headquarters. barry goldwater said to him, if the republicans don't remember the principles that we stand for, i will make you take my name off of that.

>> over the years, especially since he was in retirement, a number of public figures both republicans and democrats would come out for barry goldwater. why? >> they admired him. >> he is one of a kind. a person of integrity. they may not have agreed with them, but he was one of a kind.

you have to keep in mind, one theory, when barry died, bill clinton had the flags of the united states lowered to half staff on the day of his funeral. that had never happened before apple probably never happen again. >> one quick what about hillary clinton being a goldwater girl in 1964. >> he had a very fascinating rehabilitation in the 1970's. there was an article in the new york times magazine in april of 1974. >> the liberals love barry goldwater now. what it was about is how it reviewed a lot of the unfairness that we have been talking about. the reconsideration centered it around the fact he was being so forthright in excoriating richard nixon for his lies. >> >> 'welcome to the program. >> thank you so much. i was raised in phoenix and my family worshipped goldwater. we were active in his campaign. my brother became a libertarian and said it would never need to be a libertarian party of. goldwater had just become president. i was then later a 1992

delegate to the republican convention. it was going to be a big fight that year, a platform fight over putting abortion in the platform. one week before the convention, empirical water base statement to the press about there was no blankety blank way that should be in the platform. but i got to the convention, there were all of these tables. here was a big blue button that said "barry's right. " i bought that and wore it the entire week. to this day it is my most prized possession. >> barry is still right. >> i think that is a difficult issue. i think a lot of people like to use that to call -- i am not saying you're caller did this. to position him as a libertarian.

i think they know that the public consider themselves libertarians and try to marginalize him that way. the truth is that a lot of conservatives believe that the federal government should not have any role in the question of whether or not abortion is a crime. william f. buckley is a pretty strong conservative. i do not think anybody would quibble with that. he also believed that was not the role of the federal government. marketing comes into play here. the way people took what barry goldwater said is not the way people took what will lead f. buckley said. it were saying the same thing. >> you cannot talk about during cold water -- we should point out he left the senate in 1964 because his term expired. >> he came back and had a very important role as he met with richard nixon two days before his resignation. >> what is the story? >> he was the guy who led a delegation of republicans. it is very simple. impeachment of a political process, he said that you do not have the votes in the senate to win in a trial. therefore, you do not want to

be the first president to be thrown out on your ear by the senate. you ought to resign. richard nixon took his advice. richard nixon resigned on august 9, 1974. >> the relationship between the two? >> testy. >> barry goldwater consistently throughout watergate would prod richard nixon to tell the truth. he said this is beginning to smell. there was a very famous showdown between barry goldwater and richard nixon at the 1960 republican convention. one of the most important set pieces in conservative history. nelson rockefeller basically threatened a floor fight unless he could dictate the terms of the republican platform. he forced richard nixon to fly

to new york to negotiate the terms of the platform. it was announced in chicago where the convention was. barry goldwater was so mad he gave this angry speech calling it munich of the republican party. that was when people started demonstrating for barry goldwater at that convention to usurp the nomination from richard nixon. ever since that point i don't think he ever really trusted richard nixon. >> jumping ahead to watergate is what brought on the resignation. >> barry goldwater told me and bob goldwater reiterates this. the reason that barry goldwater was so angry at richard nixon leading up to the resignation is because "richard was a gd liar. " there is a thing in the

documentary, from childhood he said that if we did something wrong and we told the truth, we did not get punished. if we lied we got punished. there is a very strong thing on the part of barry and bob. something about lying. he was so angry at nixon for lying through the watergate period. that's why he was so angry. >> edward is joining us from new orleans. go ahead please. >> in 1968, i was at the republican convention in miami. i was able to meet barry goldwater. he was extremely nice. he struck me as totally different from his national image. and i also discovered ronald reagan in the back of the new section of the auditorium being interviewed by nbc. i was only want to see him

there. reagan was making noises about running for president at the convention. i stood outside about his finishing the interview, i think it was with david brinkley. he came out and by that time a whole bunch of reporters had gathered out there. mr. reagan came out and i asked him a couple questions. then the reporters circled, about 20 or 30. we went as they circle with mr. reagan in the middle. he was very nicely yelling answers back into my microphone. we went around the corner and, where the tables were, the whole gang of people swept into this table at the end of it. knocking over a little man at his typewriter. on the floor, all his books, i stopped and helped him. i look into his face and it was theodore as white.

that stopped me right there. he was -- he apologized to me for that. i've got to meet three really nice people. barry goldwater, ronald reagan in theater white. >> thank you for the phone call. conventions were quite different in 1964 and 68. >> by the way, i do think that in the making of the president that teddy white was pretty patronizing to barry goldwater despite what the earlier caller said. in 1964, the convention was angry and violent. he mentioned david brinkley. alan brinkley, david's son, was a professor at columbia. he told me that he was so impassioned, violently angry, at the media, the eastern establishment press, that david

brinkley told his son, a teenager at the time, you under no no some consensus can wear your nbc insignia around san francisco. that's why people afraid of this idea of the goldwater movement as a crazy fascist thing was a dangerous, frightening time. >> in 1984, barry goldwater in his final two years in the u.s. senate before retiring, put forth ronald reagan's nomination to serve a second term, to be the republican nominee in 84. >> a month ago i sat in my again. i watched the democratic national convention. speaker after speaker, all promising the moon to every narrow, selfish interest group in the country. but they ignored the hopes and aspirations of the largest

special interest group of all, free men and for women. [applause] tonight i want to speak about freedom. and let me remind you that extremism is a defensive liberty and no vice. >> darcy olsen, quintessential barry goldwater? >> absolutely, people loved barry goldwater. and what he was expressing is akin to give me liberty or give me death.

in america we believe this. you know? and i think that sometimes the loss of the 64 campaign is mistakenly interpreted as an outright rejection of those ideas. and it wasn't anything of the sort. you can hear it from the cheering. you can see it from the reagan revolution. you see it from the ideas being alive today. that is what the liberal press at the time wanted people to believe. in fact when he lost the campaign and the new york times washington bureau chief, james reston, had said that barry goldwater not only had lost but lost the entire could sort of cause. they were always talking about the death of conservativism. that is wishful thinking. it remains wishful thinking today on the part of the press. that is classic barry goldwater. it reflects what many americans

believe. which is you cannot be too passionate, too committed, too extreme if you want to use that word, and the defense of the constitutional freedoms. >> we're joined from new york city. go ahead please. >> i just recently -- but broke a bomb, and you never felt like you had a state. i looked at people like very goldwater, ronald reagan. you look at fox news, certain organizations, they praise conservatives. but when you look at the record, i tried to wonder why african americans not to vote for conservatives. it's monolithic. it's such a diverse party. you look at this several rights, run reagan, the states rights speech of philadelphia, mississippi. can conservatives understand that when you keep praising

people like barry goldwater, ronald reagan, all you have to do is pick up a book and their record is there. let's be honest and say they were wrong on this. you cannot say freedom and equality when a whole part of society feels alienated. i would like to take that time. thank you for taking my call. >> thank you jay. >> well, i certainly understand what the caller was saying in his views. but when you talk about barry goldwater, i think more what he's referring to, whether he realizes it or not, is the image of a very goldwater that was put out there of being crazy. a racist, whatever. he really wasn't. barry goldwater, you can say whatever you want, was never a hateful person. he was never a vengeful person and his handling of politics.

i wish some of these ten or 12 people we had here running for president presently would adopt some of what the nice of barry goldwater was. >> it's important to know that by the end of the 1964 campaign, barry goldwater made a very important and subtle shift in his position on civil rights. you can always say, and he shouted, that he was an integration is. he was for integration. there was his goal for society. by the end of the campaign as he was trying to win those southern states he did say our goal is neither to have an integrated society or segregated. it's a a free society. he did seem to move away from the idea of integration as a positive good. >> quick note about the debates. there were four debates in 1960, none in 1964. why? >> there was a dirty trick by lyndon johnson. in order to have a debate you

had to suspend a rule of federal communications so that every candidate, all 30 candidates including the beekeepers party, wouldn't have to be on the stage. lyndon johnson wired that. it was impossible. he did not want to face very goldwater. says something about maybe he thought barry goldwater would have been in adversary. >> a question from here. >> from scott stale, this is for darcy olsen. do you see the tea party movement as a part of the goldwater movement? >> i definitely think that there are a lot -- the tea party, i guess, is not a monolithic. right? there are all kinds of people that constitute the tea party. a lot of different ideas in the tea party. but i think that if you look at the tea party as a group of people who have bought these

gigantic bailouts in washington, they thought the raising of the debt ceiling. they thought the federal takeover of health care. all of those things, i think barry goldwater would have been with them on it. certainly we see a lot of elements of goldwater coming out in the major pieces of what the tea party folks are working on. >> from watertown wisconsin, franklin is on the phone. we welcome you. go ahead please. >> yes, i would like to make a comment. i think if we would've elected barry goldwater as president in 64 we would've won the war in vietnam. he did not believe [inaudible] i would like to say that barry goldwater told mixer nixon that he could not hold the south for him. or make sure the south would stay for him.

they asked him to resign instead of being impeached. thank you. >> franklin, thank you. >> the stuff about how barry goldwater miraculously won the vietnam war. the united states paved over the entirety of the land mass of north and south vietnam with a quarter inch of steel. if we had done half an inch, three quarters, it would've done it? i think it's a fantasy. a pleasant one. but i think that it's a glib position. >> we have a minute or two left. did it very good waters views change as he got older? did the evolve? >> my convention is absolutely not. views meaning his basic core philosophy, the way he looked at life, look at politics? i've had battles, up and pages where people say, and i said earlier, he got senile and

turned liberal at the end. he did not. he was always a matter of, i call it, freedom of choice, libertarian, whether abortion issues, gay rights, any number of things. he was totally consistent his whole life. >> yes, i agree. almost any question at any time period in buries life, if you look at what his position was and ask was a constitutional or not? that will give you the answer to what his position was. people look around today to find politicians who are as honest as barry, who stand for principle and they are few and far between. that's one of the reasons he gave us his blessing. he knew that he could not count on politicians to stand for principle all the time. with regular american men and women supporting their organization, they believed in those ideas, that you would always have a voice for freedom. >> i give you the final word. what was the legacy of the 1964 campaign?

what impacted barry goldwater have on american politics? >> i think the legacy of the campaign was organizational. it was the formation of organizations. they became a prominent conservative movement that lost the battle in 1964 but live to five dozens of battles more. i think his legacy is to have conspired these people to become something, become part of something bigger than themselves. to inspire people who felt frustrated with the course of the country and take civic action. >> the book is called before the storm, barry goldwater and the unabating of the american consensus by eric s. perlstein. two darcy olsen, for hosting us at the golden water and statute, the president and ceo, we appreciate your time. >> our pleasure. >> and bill mccune bill, the author and producer of a documentary on barry goldwater. >> barry goldwater and american life.

>> thank you for being with us. and the audience of the cold water is a two. we want to leave you with some of the words of barry goldwater in an interview we did with him when he was winding his political career down from 1985. >> another thing i would tell you, tell young politicians coming into washington, your reelection is not going to make or break the united states. do the best job you can do. that is what you are here for. to defend the constitution. against all enemies, foreign and domestic. and be honest. that is all i'll tell them. >> how about the republican party leaders today? >> well i think we have good leadership today. lord knows we spent long enough time out of office that we should've learned some things. politics goes in a circle. you'll find the liberal element

running things for a while. then we found the conservative on the way up. the conservative will run the place until he runs out of ideas. he runs out of people. and the other party, even the republican party becomes the liberal party. we'll take over. at. our politics in america go around in circles. and i think that's great. go with cold water. what you know where cold water stands. to gold with cold water. russia go with cold water ♪ ♪ let's go with cold water.