generations to come. [applause] weeknights this month on american history tv, we are featuring the contenders. a serious that looks at 14 presidential candidates who lost the election but had a lasting effect on u.s. politics. tonight, we feature former texas businessman ross perot, who was an independent candidate in the 1992 and 1996 presidential elections. that starts at 8 pm eastern. enjoy american history tv this weekend every weekend on c-span three.

you're watching american history tv. every weekend on c-span 3, explore our nations past. c-span 3, created by americas cable television companies as a public service and brought to you today by your television provider. >> we are four trillion dollars in debt, going into debt an additional one billion dollars every working day of the year. while we sit here tonight, we will go into debt an additional 50 million dollars an hour and a half. it's not the republicans fault. it's not the democrats fault. what i'm looking for is who did it. they are the two folks involved, so maybe together they didn't. the facts are, we have to fix it. somewhere out there, there is an extra terrestrial doing this to us i guess. everyone says they take responsibility. someone, somewhere has to take responsibility for this. >> that was independent

candidate ross perot during the second of three presidential debates on october 15th, 1992. he was talking about one of his favorite issues, the u.s. debt. in the election, the texas businessman won 19% of the popular vote, the largest vote for an independent candidate since the it'll roosevelt. mr. perot ran a second campaign in 1996, and tonight he is our focus on the contenders. >> we are doing a series as a way to look at american history through the lens of presidential candidates who failed in their quest for the white house, but have an outsized impact on american history. ross perot is our final of 14 people we are profiling in this series. tonight, joining us for our discussion, two hours on ross perot is historian and biographer doug brinkley. as a person who's done a number of biographies on 20th century political figures, what interest you about ross perot? >> he has a pioneer spirit in

him. he really harkens back to the 19th century, early 20th century. he is more like henry ford or thomas edison. he's not politics as usual. he really cares about the country, patriotism. that's become a cheap. word people throw it about. ross perot was a superpatriot. he's less interested in money and politics than he is in doing what's right for our country. this comes out of his naval academy background. he was in constant service to the country. looking for p.o.w.'s and mia's during vietnam and constantly supporting our special forces. but the clip you just ran tells you that in 1992, perot was on the central issue, the national debt. when he gave that clip, he said three trillion dollars in debt. today, we are at 15 trillion. when he was talking about the great sucking sound of jobs leaving america due to nafta

outsourcing, it's probably on the left to stir some middle class americans that say jobs have gone overseas and many of our towns in the midwest and south are languishing right now. >> the issues ross perot talked about in his campaigns are being echoed today by tea party people on the right and occupy wall street on the left. is that what you're saying? >> exactly. he's a centrist. you can't look at ross perot in a paradigm of typical politics. we often want to label people right, left, this and that. he is something of an older american fighter. wagon trains out west or the world war ii or korean war heroes, soldiers, explores, inventors. that's what ross perot is really about. his entering a 92 was not about politics as much as it was public service. you have to say this about ross perot in 92 and 96. he put his considerable amount

of money where his mouth was. he ran every season we have people contemplating with third-party, runs and ross perot did it. it's extraordinary to get about 19% of a vote. it's kind of unprecedented. and it came from middle class people all over america. so it's interesting to reflect on the whole united we stand movement that ross perot ran in 92, and with the reform party in 96. is there going to be a third party person? is there a ross perot that might enter the mix in 2012? if you look at his platform in 92, he seems to have been right on a lot of the key issues, including border problems, drugs, violence on the texas mexico border, the need for public school education. he has controversial things like putting on a gasoline tax. all these issues, if we look at ross perot and his legacy, it

invigorates current debate. >> for many americans outside of texas, 1992 was the introduction to ross perot. but he had been on the national stage for a while. in the late eighties, he began speaking out about these issues that he was concerned about. we look at our video library and our first coverage of ross perot was back in 1987. here he is speaking before the american bankers association that here. >> let's look at where we are, and let's take the rose colored glasses off. all these people say there is no problem and the fundamentals are sound. i think we've had enough dr. feel good. i think we are all grown and tough enough to take bad news. and i think it's time we look at the facts. we've got a three trillion dollar debt by 1988. our net will be funded significantly more by foreign nations. the greatest nation in the history of man doesn't even have the will to pass a

national budget. we continue to pass resolutions that put us deeper into debt, and we've given up trying to live within our means as a country. there is no correlation between taxes paid in and money spent. we are losing in international business competition. some of our banks have problems. savings and loans have serious problems. wall street is bouncing all over the place. our personal spending habits of our people are as bleak as our federal spending habits. our people spend everything they make. and they have no savings. >> 24 years ago, 1987. except for upping the numbers and the fact that americans are now saving because of the 2000 a crisis, almost all these issues can be talked about today. >> that's absolutely correct. remember why ross perot gave that speech. he was a genius at start-up operations. he understood the corporate

world. in 1960 true, he collected electronic data systems and sold it a few years before that speech, 1980, four to general motors. he became arguably the richest person in texas. he was on the cover of fortune magazine. he knows what he's talking about of how to take a start-up business. he was early with the internet revolution, the importance of data collection, companies investing in apple. he really worked for ibm when he was a young man. he really wanted the united states and his adult life to be that work great country it was of his childhood. the country that fdr brought us through and the great depression and world war ii the, can do spirit that fills him up. the fact that we were losing in the eighties to japan a lot, and today are problems competing with china, and the

fact that so many people in congress seem to be bought and paid for, the lobbying in washington, getting rid of lobbyists and corrupt politicians was at the core of the message. >> the contender series is a call in program. in a few minutes, we will put our phone numbers on the screen so you can be involved in the conversation about ross perot and the issues he was involved in and his legacy in our politics today. in 1993, this book was published, perot and his people, disputing the balance of power, disrupting rather. a longtime texas journalist was the author of the book joining us for the rest of our program from her home in texas. she's in dallas. caroline, you knew ross perot as a texas journalist long before many americans met him. would you tell us about his roots and texarkana and his upbringing and what shape the man we knew on the national stage? >> perot was from texarkana.

he had a very average texas childhood. he lived in a strong, stable middle class family as a boy. he rode horses, traded horses. he was in the eagle scout. even in later life, i think he kept all the traits of an eagle scout. he would set objectives for himself, goals and then try to pursue those goals. he was very much in the texas tradition of the day, and as he grew and went to the naval academy and started his own businesses, he was sort of representing the can do spirit of texas. his vision was big. the state was big. there were boundless opportunities here. the sky was the limit sort of thing. he really sort of played into what was sort of the texas mythology with texas

politicians who were larger than life, very successful businessman who made a fortune here. they were risk takers, not afraid to fail, and that was the sort of spirit that he had and that i think got him into this thing. >> it's worth noting that at the naval academy, ross perot was president of his class last two years. he showed leadership traits early on and the ability to galvanize people under his leadership that we would see later in life. a quick overview of his business career let's take a look at after the naval academy. he left the navy after four years and went into business into ibm as a salesman. he became the top salesman for the company. that was in 1957. by 1962, he had founded his own company which is electronic data systems. in 1984, he sold eds to general motors for 2.4 billion dollars and then stayed on the board for a number years. in 1988 he, founded pro systems

and in 2000, nine he sold the company to del computers for 3.9 billion dollars. the source of his great wealth as. that he and his family are also known as philanthropists. can you talk about that side of mr. perot and his family? >> they were given a fortune to all sorts of charities. mr. perot himself has made many anonymous contributions and in small ways has helped individuals without people even knowing about it. but there is a hospital here named for his wife. he has given a lot of money to the boy scouts. it's just endless their philanthropy. >> doug brinkley, you mentioned earlier his involvement with vietnam p.o.w.'s. can you tell us a bit more about what you know about his interest in that issue, and

also how it created the divide between him and later president? >> we just mentioned he graduated from the u.s. naval academy in annapolis as the president. that's a big deal. he was the sort of person in the navy who believed they were only as good as the man they left behind. during the years where he was in the navy, he would sometimes have to go and get soldiers that were on leave or got drunk in a foreign town and get them back on the ship. it became kind of a hallmark to never leave anybody behind. he was very upset during the vietnam war, rightfully so, that the united states, we didn't push the p.o.w. mia issue enough. ross perot stepped into that fray in a very dramatic way. he went to back channel negotiations with the vietnamese to say we want every one of our guys back. he has become a hero of the

u.s. military veterans for his constant concern about our soldiers and our troops. recently, i gave a top four veterans day down and dallas. it was a good group called daughters of world war ii. there were hundreds of world war ii that's, there and i got to talk to ross perot over dinner one night. one of the most amazing stories he told me was, that recently, when our seals team killed osama bin laden, they shipped him, they thought so much of him, they shift the walking cane of bin laden. he went to fort pierce, florida to the seal museum, which people should definitely go visit in florida, because i think our navy seals should be people of the year. perot had to stick their with all of the seals in attendance

of bin laden. that's a tribute to how conscientious he is about protecting service people, helping veterans when he can, and particularly with the special forces that he thinks represent the best of the best of the american spirit. >> we visited his boyhood home in texarkana. we will show you that. as we are looking at that, i would like caroline to talk about his involvement at the behest of texas governors in issues including the war on drugs and education reform in his home state. >> he was appointed to a couple of task forces. one by former governor bill clans and another one by former governor marc white. clemons was a republican. white succeeded him as a democrat. they both tapped perot and asked him to serve.

one was on education reform, and i think it kind of points out how mr. perot was always one to speak his mind. he was never afraid to say what he thought. and he thought thatmaybe we donr public schools. so perot just very sarcastically said, okay, let's put all the fat girls on the drill team, let's have everybody be the quarterback. so it was just sort of an example of how he always spoke his mind. but he was never reluctant to take on a job if he was asked to do one like that for a couple of governors. it showed that the democrats and republicans both liked him, and for years, his name had been mentioned as a potential candidate for something in texas because he was a leader. and he was also sort of in the tradition of old-time texas

politicians, people like speaker sam rayburn, and even going back to sam houston in the republic of texas. that kind of a charismatic leader, speaker sam rayburn, lbj, governor john conley, governor clemons who certainly like to speak his mind, governor and richards who was in a class by herself as well. he was so much like some of these older texans who would just tell it like it is, and didn't mind doing the hard work. if he thought it would help the state or help the country, he didn't mind doing the hard work to do it. >> one more bit of the perot biography that we will put on the screen before we get to his campaign and 92. in a row, on a number of workers were held hostage and

mr. perot was personally involved in the rescue of those. that was later captured in a book by can fall it called on wings of eagles. it became a national bestseller and later a movie on television. can you talk about how this and, we've seen a lot of politicians, building the personal biography through the telling of stories like this? >> this is an amazing story. in 1979, jimmy carter was president. you had the beginnings of the iranian revolution, and two of his workers for his company, for electronic data systems, had been held captive. he wanted them sprung free. he went and hired former special forces people to go in and find a way to get him loose. they ended up using an anti ayatollah khamenei rally to go

and spring a prison where not just the two americans, his two employees, were released, but about 10,000 political prisoners got released. they had a very dangerous trip where it was a cloak and dagger kind of story, but they were eventually able to get smuggled out through turkey. this was a highly successful extraction maneuver of getting in there and getting his guys back. it gets back to what i said earlier about the p.o.w.'s and mia. ross perot believes in loyalty first and foremost. if you are loyal to him and his company, he will do anything for you. if you listen to people that know him well, that's the number one trade, personal loyalty to people that he believes in. >> we have a great photograph from the period of parole with actor richard macron who played him in the on wings of eagles movie.

in the beginning of 1992, set the stage for us about george h. w. bush's bid for reelection and how the public was feeling about him. >> 41, as he is called now, had quite an impressive record in foreign affairs. he oversaw the berlin wall coming down, the apprehension of noriega in panama, the breakup of the soviet union, the end of the cold war, and in 1990, won the gulf war which most people thought was a great success of ousting saddam hussein from kuwait. but the economy was stagnant and by early january 1992, pat buchanan was going after president bush as having a silver spoon in his mouth. he was an elite, out of touch. there was a populist revolt in the republican party. he also had another insurgent, jerry brown coming, in and trying to re-track. bill clinton then gets the

nomination, and you have the new democrat, bill clinton and george herbert walker bush, and suddenly, ross perot goes on the larry king show on cnn and says i will run as an independent, if i can be on the ballot in all 50 states. if i'm drafted, i'm not going out to run the typical campaign. but people want my ideas and once we talked about it at the outset, here particularly balancing the budget and the stopping of outsourcing of jobs, but also he was opposed to the war in iraq. he thought the gulf war was going to be a mistake and instead special forces should have gone in and killed saddam hussein. but he launched this amazing third-party run and started soaring in the polls, and became a darling of the summer of 92 and we will pick up the rest of the story in a little bit. >> let's show that larry king live february 20th, 1992. when ross perot announces his

willingness to run. >> everybody is saying why are we in this mess. look in the mirror. we are the owners of this country. we don't act like it. we act like we get programed by messages coming out of washington. >> is there any scenario in which he would run for president. ? can you give me a scenario? >> number one, i don't want to. if you are that serious, you the people are that serious, register me and 50 states. if you aren't willing to organize and do that, then this is all just talk. >> are you saying? >> if you are dead serious, i want to see some sweat. i want to see some sweat. i said it earlier.

i want you in the ring. >> caroline, let me ask you about how much of a surprise that announcement was, by the time it was made in february 92? >> it surprised most people, but the truth of the matter was that he had been out on making speeches for several years, particularly leading up to the larry king live it to view. in fact, a couple weeks before, that he was in tennessee to speak to a business group and was interviewed by a reporter there. he told him virtually the same thing, that if he saw some skin in the game, if people would get in the ring and get him on the ballot that he wouldn't think about doing it. nothing much came of that. it was published. nothing much came of it.

perot was talking to a man in tennessee, and another in florida who were sort of activists trying to draft him to run. and john j hooker in tennessee, sort of a flamboyant businessman, kept calling him, talking to him, and trying to get him to run. it got to the point where they started talking about where would we announce. they considered conventional sources, new york times, l.a. times, wall street journal. he liked larry king live. in fact, throughout the campaign, he liked going on talk shows where he could talk and get his message out. so as i was told the story, john of the tennessee in, formerly, he called larry king live and i'm not sure whether

he's set it up or just told them to ask the question. >> perot said he was going on larry king live to talk about the economy. he made an impulsive statement. he never thought it would go anywhere. but the truth of the matter is, he had been thinking about this for quite a long time. even three months before, he made a speech in tampa to a group called throw the rascals, throw the hypocritical rascals out. a man down there, jack garner, was trying to draft him. there were signs, draft perot, 2000 people listening to him speak down there. and he was curious about it. how do you get on 50 ballots? he asked some of his staff people to do some research to see how do you get on the ballot. even mulling it over in his head for a good while, it was a surprise to most of the country. but i think he had been thinking about it for a good.

while >> his challenge to his supporters to get him on the ballot in 50 states became the subject of carolyn's book, which, as she contends, is all about the people who followed ross perot and how they were galvanized to move outside of the conventional two party system in support of issues and this figure leading those issues. we'll talk a lot more about that is the program continues, but two clips and then we will start taking calls. these are back-to-back clips that give you a sense of flavor. doug brinkley earlier mentioned that ross perot was very critical of the george h. w. bush prosecution of the first gulf war. we will hear about that in an interview he gave to c-span in march of 1992. immediately after, that also in the spring of 92, you'll hear a clip from a very well-known texas journalist, molly ivan, who has now passed. she was asked in the spring to talk about the texas politician

that she knew so well. we will look at the clips and get back to your calls. >> the nation understands why we are going to war. let's take the example you gave me. it was four months before the white house could figure out why we were doing it. one time it was jobs, next time oil. they got it together and it was nuclear, chemical, bacteriological, and hussein. we still have those. we didn't accomplish any objectives. if i knock on your door and say can i bore your son to go to the middle east so that this guy who has a minister for sex to find him a virgin every night can have his throne, back you would hit me right now. >> one day i made a really serious mistake about ross perot in my column. i was writing about the stupid tax reform idea they had in the reagan years where they abolished the income tax and

the flat tax rate. i said that was a bad idea. i said if you make more than 17,500 dollars a year, you will now be in exactly the same tax bracket is ross perot. because my high school english teacher told me to edit mistakes, i added a comma, who makes more than 1 million dollars a year. i made a journalistic error and i did not check. i thought it was a safe play, but i did not check. the next day, bigger the guys that are business desk in dallas called they said ross perot makes 1 million dollars a day. [laughs] [laughs] i was sitting there saying this will be an

embarrassing correction. the operator said ross perot calling for molly evens. it really is funny. i like the guy. i am sorry about that, because i'm sure he is politically incorrect to an extent that would make peoples teeth heard around here, but in fact, i do like ross perot. he is a hard guy to dislike. there is a lot to like there. the downside is that basically guys who have made a lot of money and business tend to have a very hard time working in a system of checks and balances. the other downside is that the man is slightly paranoid, which is a bit like being slightly pregnant. >> this is the contenders, focusing on the presidential campaigns of age ross perot in 1992 and 1996. our guest in washington, d.c., douglas brinkley. a presidential historian and

carolyn barked, a longtime texas journalist who wrote about the perot campaign and the protesters who supported him in 1992. let's begin the telephone calls on the contenders, starting with ralph watching chicago. ralph you're on the air. yes, thank you, susan. distinguishing himself against two rivals an uncommon for a road map on the war on drugs. [inaudible] jfk used in speed medically and washington, jefferson, jackson and lincoln used medical marijuana. each of our last three successful contenders used both grass and coke medically and recreational. thank you. >> doug brinkley.

what we are really getting at is the so-called war on drugs, which became a popular phrase in the 19 eighties in the united states. the problem was all of these urban centers. whole generations of kids that were getting addicted to so different types of narcotics. ross perot saw that. his whole life he was a champion of education. working for public schools in particular. there were public schools that drugs had taken over. you cannot even go into them, including dallas, which was a very rough city back in the eighties and nineties, people forget. perot took a pretty hard line on cracking down on drugs. of course, we had the crack epidemic that starts hitting the united states after that. so i think he was tough on that issue. so if you're someone who is a libertarian and believes that drugs should be legal in the united states, parole would not be on your side. >> matt is watching us in

texas. you are on. good evening, matt. >> good evening. i'm very glad you're having this discussion on ross perot. i want to make a comment and a question. he's had an impact, i believe doctor pepper and a few other compilations trying to move here as well. later on, he ended up finding an organization. he's had a huge impact where i live. i thank him for that. my question was about admiral and his choice for vice president. as we saw later on, he did not look too good in the bp debate and i think it was a hindrance. i'm not sure how many votes it cost him, but it clearly did not make him look good. i just wanted to ask what was the thinking and the decision behind his vp selection? >> thanks so much, matt. >> in 1992, he chose admiral

stockdale. >> admiral stockdale is one of the greatest americans who ever lived. he's one of the most decorated naval officers in u.s. history. of course, he had been a p.o.w. in world war -- or in the vietnam war. he organized what they called the alcatraz gang of how to have a p.o.w. resistance. this guy won something like 26 medals, numerous silver stars, medal of honor. he later went on to become president of a naval war college. we are dealing with a very serious person and stockdale. ross perot just and mired him lavishly. he thought he was the type of person we needed in government and so he chose him as his vp. it was an interesting choice. what people forget in 92, ross perot did well in the debates. he clearly won the first debate against clinton and bush and

some people would say he won all three. that is how he got to 9% -- 19%. pre-debates, perot was at 8% or something like this. post-debates, he went up to 19. he did well. stockdale struggled. he only had about a week to prepare. debating with dan quail and al gore. he got out of the gate wrong by making a comment like who am i, because people had not heard of him before. he actually got a lot of applause when he did the debates, but the media went to town on him. he wasn't really ready for that media frenzy that you have to expect. it made some people questioned whether perot could be president because some people did not think stockdale had a political skills to be president -- vice president. on the other hand, admiral stockdale is a energetic -- so much to a biography on this

man. we just remember his founding of the debate question and wrote not remembering what an extraordinary military -- the service of admiral stockdale is almost unparalleled. >> in the spring of 1992, the people who are enthusiastic about ross perot begin the work of meeting his challenge and getting his name on the ballot in all 50 states. will you describe to our audience ballot access in this country and as it existed in 1992? and how big a task they faced. >> it was a huge task. in order to get on the ballot in any state, you have to meet the laws of that state. so if it's a petition that you have to get 100,000 names on a petition or you pay 1000 dollars, it could be the range of requirements for getting in on the petition is just

extraordinarily diverse. but in most cases, it is very hard because you do have to collect all of these petition names in most cases. and sometimes you have a very narrow window in which to do it in. and so what happened after larry king live, people started calling the probe headquarters saying they wanted to get in the ring with him. they wanted to do whatever they could do to make him run. and so they set up a phone bank there at his headquarters in dallas and volunteers came in and manned the phone banks. they were having people call from all over the country. they set up a very sophisticated phone bag where somebody would call in. if they were from a certain state, that they want to work

on a petition drive or did they want to volunteer? they want to know when perot was going to be next on tv? it would go to answer the prisons question. when did they parole organization that had to do, and parole called and six people from his company and asked them to start figuring out how to do this. how do we get on to the ballot in 50 states and start working with people who are volunteering with all of these states to find out what the law is in that state and to start working to do it. and so it was an enormous task. once you get on the ballot, and if you reached certain threshold, you establish a ballot position for the future. and perot established a ballot access position in actually 92,

96, and then he even established it in 96 so pat buchanan, who ran on the reform party ticket in 2000, had the ballot access. initially, it's almost impossible but he never feared doing the impossible. he got his team to work. he got leaders in every state to handle the petition drive if that was needed in that state. >> as the spring moved into summer, ross perot was reaching 39% in some polls of public approval ratings. the two parties were really beginning to take this man's candidacy seriously. bill clinton moving toward his nomination as a new democrat, as you said, and the incumbent president george bush probably wondering what was happening here with this challenge from

ross perot. to texans going against one another. can you talk more about the relationship between the two? >> first off, bush 41 is really a houston figure, which is about international companies and about the oil industry and trading. ross perot was working with ibm and then with his own data serves his company. they were just in different texas industries and different geography. they got into a terrible feud over the p.o.w. and mia issues. he really accused bush, and particularly the cia in general, of being part of a drug trade in southeast asia. that they were actually kind of doing slush fund monies to -- buy selling heroin and other opiates. >> we should interject, george bush was head of the cia. >> yeah, so it became pretty nasty. there is no love lost between

george herbert walker bush and ross perot, but that is politics. so the bigger question in 80 to, as we are talking about this, i'm thinking that we just heard about this sort of populist campaign approach. but remember, he put something around 12 or 13 million dollars of his own money into the game, maybe more. he was also able to buy these tv time half our television commercials. one half hour infomercial of ross perot garnered about 10.5 million viewers. he was following no real rules. of course, george herbert walker bush had been head of the republican party and clinton with the darling of the democratic party. perot was filling this vital center and was really trying to champ in the middle class every day american person versus special interests. he's the original anti-money in

washington guy. that is also an issue we are talking about. he saw that was going to be a doomed for us. >> let's take our next call. it's from indianapolis and jerry is watching us there. >> i've got a question. when ross perot and bill clinton tried to get neck and neck with johnson and roosevelt, talking about jobs in the economy and everything. the problem thing when she probably started with george bush in the white house. trying to get the people what they want in the country. >> thank you, jerry. jerry actually reflecting the

comments that brinkley made about plan to the middle class of america. i will move on to darcel watching us in north carolina. go ahead. >> yes, i was one who signed up for ross perot and i can say i know i was definitely responsible for more than 20 of my friends who i convinced not to vote democratically, to vote for ross perot. >> darcel, let me ask you looking back now with the hindsight of 20 years, how did you feel about that whole effort for mr. perot? >> first of all, i really appreciate that he went outside the box. one of his most important speeches was chicken and chips. you guys have to break that tape out. i thought that was just one of the most laughable moments because both president bush and

now president clinton had no idea what was going on. they looked sort of dumbfounded and i was very proud that my sorority sister was one who was head of that. she moderated that debate. i was somewhat concerned about his daughter. i hope you guys mentioned something about his daughter. she was supposed to be assassinated, so they were going to take him off. he was going to leave the campaign. that was a curiosity as well as i was not really quite sure his feelings about race. i felt comfortable. he had a very large turnout in flint, michigan. there was all kinds of uaw people there. they were very excited about this man because he seemed to be very sincere. when he was telling some of the

volunteers you need to put some skin in the game, because he's not going to put all of his money and just see it go from top. but i think he was very responsible for any other third candidate already -- third party candidate, to be involved. >> all right, let me jump in the point. thank you very much, interesting. i'm sure we will hear from other people who were involved with the perot campaign. i will ask carolyn barta, i want you to answer one aspect of your question. that is ross perot's views on race. a >> on race? >> yes, that is what she asked about. >> are you talking about? oh, on race. well, he made a speech at the naacp in the course of the campaign. actually, this was shortly before he got out and things

had not been going well in the campaign. the press was determined to put him through a primary because he had not been through one. there had been a lot of negative stories, you know, he was conspiratorial, investigated people. his family, and, everything that was not going well. and he did not like the way the campaign was going at that point. he had agreed to go make a speech at the naacp. and in the course of the speech, there was a phrase something like you and your people. he used the phrase you and your people. and for whatever reason, after it was over, with people interpreted to be racist. he was making some kind of racist statement.

and it really devastated him, because he had this image of himself as a great humanitarian who was very tolerant of, racially tolerant and had no animosity or racial prejudices. and he came off sounding like a racist and not long after, that he did get out. >> we will pick up the story, because as we mentioned, by summer he was at 39% in the polls. people working on ballot access had been successful in about half the states. then in july, july 16th to be exact, 1992, and announcement from ross perot about his campaign. just two and a half months later, a second announcement. we will watch a little bit of both right now. >> we have set among ourselves and publicly that we must win in november.

we must win a majority of electoral votes. if we cannot win in november, as you know, the election will be decided in the house of representatives. since the house of representatives is made up of democrats and republicans, our chances of winning would be pretty slim. now that the democratic party has revitalized itself, i have concluded that we cannot win in november. the election will be decided in the house of representatives. since the house of representatives does not pick the president until january, the new president will be unable to use the months of november and december to assemble the new government. i believe it would be disruptive for us to continue our program, since this would obviously put it in the house of representatives and be disruptive to the country.

in the states, i will not become a candidate. >> the volunteers know that this is a critical time in our nation's history. neither political party has effectively address the issues that concern the american people. they've asked me to run this campaign on the issues and to assure that the problems that the american people are concerned with will be dealt with after this election is over. i know i hurt many of the volunteers who worked so hard to the spring and summer when i stepped aside in july. i thought it was the right thing to do. i thought that both political parties would address the problems that face the nation. we gave them a chance and they didn't do it. but the volunteers, on their own, forged ahead and put me on the ballot in the final 26 states after july the 16th. the day we were on the ballot in all 50 states, the volunteers requested that i come back in because of political parties not

responding to their concerns. my decision in july hurt you, then i apologize. i thought i was doing the right thing. i made a mistake. i take full responsibility for it. there is only one issue now starting today, and that is what's good for our country. looking back won't solve any of our problems. looking forward, working together, we can fix anything. >> caroline, you followed this campaign and you understood the disappointment of the people who were working for perot. what did you come to learn about the reason for him leaving in july and getting back in october? >> i think there were several reasons that he decided to get out. i already mentioned that the press was doing a lot of investigative stories on him that he didn't like. but another thing was happening in the campaign.

they brought some professionals in to help with the campaign, and the pros started taking over. it got really out of hand. already had a ham jordan, who was a carter guy who had been a consultant. then he brought in at rollins. adderall and wanted to do a slick tv ad. he wanted to do the traditional kind of campaign and press conference every day. perot didn't want all that. he wanted the very simple kind of campaign. he wanted to do it differently than anybody had ever done before. he just wanted to talk to the american people, when he could, on tv. he wanted to do his infomercials where he would buy time and get on tv with his flip charts and explain what he thought was wrong with america and how to fix it.

the pros came in, built up and we're trying to build up a different kind of campaign. he thought he had lost control of the campaign. it wasn't fun anymore. and i think for a variety of reasons, he decided this is not going anywhere. we are not going to win. it's grueling. and we might as well cut it off. then, there is another part to the story. his volunteers mostly were devastated. they were crying. they were so upset. a lot of these people had put their lives on hold to work for him, to get him on the ballot. then suddenly, he is pulling the plug like this. some of them were smart enough to see through that. he urged the volunteers to go ahead and get him on the ballot, because that would be their leverage. and some of them thought i think he will probably come back.

when he came back and did the kind of campaign he wanted to do all along, you want to do a short campaign. he always said he thought campaigns should be no longer than five months anyway. it was a sprint to the finish. he had five weeks when he came back in october. and he did his infomercials and went on talk shows and finish the campaign like he started it. >> let me jump in there and take a call from mike watching this in minneapolis. mike, you are on the air. >> great program. i've been watching this whole series. i have a question. mr. perot and his campaign used these demonstrations and commercials on tv, because i remember this. he was illustrating all the debt that america has. i thought those were really powerful premeditation's.

i haven't seen a candidate use that powerful presentation since. i also heard mr. perot had accused former president bush 41 of disrupting his daughter's wedding, and he wanted to take revenge, and that's one of the reasons he also-ran. the elections for 2012, who would mr. perot be supporting? >> mike spoke about the infomercials. let's show you a clip of that and we will come back to doug brinkley to talk about this use of campaign infomercials and charts to illustrate national policy issues. let's watch. >> tonight, ross perot plain talk about jobs debt and the washington mess. >> good evening. we've talked a lot about the importance of having the american people fully informed so that they can make intelligent decisions as owners of this country. in effect, this is our first town hall. i thought it would be a good idea to take the most important problem first.

that problem is our economy and jobs. here's the picture on our countries debt. look at how it's grown over the years. we are now up to four trillion dollars in debt. that is a staggering load for our country. to help you understand how fast this debt has grown, and when it grew, the green is the debt that we had in 1980. the red is the debt that has been incurred in the last 12 years. we've had an enormous growth and debt, and we don't have anything to show for it. here's another headache. it's like the guy that went into the hospital who thought he had a sore arm and found out he had gangrene. here we are. we are tough people. we can handle it. the red, 70% of the four trillion dollar debt is due and payable in the next five years.

folks in washington financed long term problem short term to keep the interest rates down. that's suicide and business, and personal life, and government. >> doug brinkley, did ross perot begin a trend of politicians to follow with the charts? was this uniquely perot? >> it's uniquely perot. you cover capitol hill and see it happening in congress all the time. but this was hitting a large audience and what's amazing is it is still the issue of our time right now. he was trying to really drive home a point that we were going to go down as a country if we kept racking up debt. he was a business person, a fiscal conservative. he thought you had to keep the books balanced, and he really ran to make that point more than anything else. i read that he once said i grew up as a young man wanting to become a pearl and i ended up coming an irritant to the oyster.

that means he wanted to wake us up to what he saw as a very large problem. maybe ten years ago, the debt wasn't particularly after the clinton administration hitting the surplus. but in 2011, the pie chart is frightening. and as i said earlier, it was four trillion when he put the chart. up today it's 50 trillion. perot was on to trying to wake us up like a poll revere kind of figure. this could be our doom of the united states if we didn't address this problem. >> caroline, two callers have asked about mr. perot's accusations that there were dirty tricks concerning his daughter's wedding. that's one of the issues he talked about with his departure from the campaign in july. and the interest of time, can you briefly tell the story of what his accusations were? >> i don't think he accused bush of doing it, but he thought the republicans were

playing dirty tricks and his daughter was getting married. it was one of the reasons that he did get out. the story was that they were going to put her head on somebody else his body in a photograph and sell it to the tabloids to use and he was very concerned about his family. his family was really special and his daughters and the daughter's wedding. the thought of that happening was too much for him and was another reason that he did get out. >> the caller's last question for both of you. is there anyone on the national

stage today who would be an air to mr. perot? >> one of the things we watch with him is inventing a new type of third party movement. there have been other since world war two. 1948, strong thurman and the dixie, crafts henry wallace and the progressive party in -- but he was trying to create a centrist movement. hence, he hired ed rollins to work his campaign and hamilton jordan, the great democrat. he was trying to play it down the middle. i don't think we have someone willing to get in the game like. that you sometimes hear bloomberg, the mayor of new york has been invoked. donald trump does all these games for his own publicity. but he doesn't really get into the game and focus on the issues. one of the things in this contenders program and thinking about ross perot is that he actually did it. it's one thing to talk about, it but to get in all 50 and get

to the point where you are getting 19% of the american people, that perot votes, the 19%, is still the middle class center that both president obama and whoever the republican nominee is fighting for. the working, class blue-collar, patriotic, tax paying american citizens in rust belt towns or. i he is talking about massive reform. he is most like theodore roosevelt in 1912. they were the two most successful third party votes, not electoral, votes but popular, vote of the 20th century. >> caroline, one question we didn't answer from an earlier caller was whether or not mr. perot's strained relationship with george bush was one of the animating factors in his campaign. do you know if that was a factor? >> well, i think it was a

factor because going back to the p.o.w. mia days, he thought when bush was vice president that the administration was not doing enough to try to get the mia's and p.o.w.'s out of north vietnam. then he thought he went to the persian golf war without a declaration of war. he also thought that bush was too focused on foreign affairs and was not addressing the domestic problems of the day. in fact, he thought he did not understand the domestic problems of the day. as doug has mentioned, the problems were very much like today. there are so many similarities with the economy, the recession, the loss of jobs, people feeling like it was no longer a government by, of and for the people. but it was government for the

politically powerful and the special interests. so many similarities. i do think that he felt that george w. bush was not up to the job. that was one of the reasons that he wanted to run. but back to the question of whether anybody could do it today. i don't know, maybe somebody like bloomberg, mayor bloomberg, somebody who does have their own money and who could do a similar campaign like him, but he was really uniquely positioned to run at that particular time. a conservative with a populist touch. i think what happened to the reform party over the years shows the difficulty in maintaining this kind of a third party movement. yes, teddy roosevelt in 1912

got 27% and 88 electoral votes. then comes ross perot in 1992 and he got no electoral votes. he got almost 20 million votes, popular votes, no electoral votes. >> carolyn, my apologies i have to ... >> we are at the top of the hour with one hour left to go. doug, you have a quick comment. >> one very important quick comment. i think the viewers really need to understand this. when we saw the pie charts of ross perot and he's talking about this deficit and the debt. that could be eric can't or today. but what you also need to know, what makes him a more complex and different centrist figure, how are we going to make up that money? he says, ross perot, let's tax gasoline. let's put a ten cents a gallon for five years, race billions to pay that off, while the oil lobby of texas does not like

this idea of taxing gasoline. what if we would've done back then, the so-called clean and sustainable energy revolution, more people pay for gas may have triggered that new kind of innovation. of course, the left is very much liking that. so the pie chart, on the one hand it seems like a conservative by chart, on the other hand out debate is something that the democrats like. it makes burrow a true centrist. >> halfway through our to our look at the contender, ross perot, of the 1992 and 1996 elections. our next phone calls from granite falls, washington. gloria, you are on for our two guests. hello, gloria. >> hello there. i just loved ross perot. i remember the 1920s. when i think of what does ross perot think of all through the political spectrum, down through those years. tranquil in -- franklin roosevelt then all of

the presidents. we come to today to total insanity. i watched the house of representatives. i watched the senate. everything has been turned around so that only certain people with a great deal of money, and appears, are able to turn the elections to their good. so i just wish that the good solid rock solid intelligence sensibility of ross perot could do anything to help us today. >> thanks very much, gloria. kollie is up next in rutherford, new jersey. hi, colleen. you are on. >> hello, i have a really good question, but i just want to make a comment, and i'm glad i came after the woman who was in the phone call prior, her living in the 20s. i was in my early twenties in the nineties and ross perot was

the equivalent of a ron paul. young people loved ross perot. i used to run home and could not wait to watch his pie charts. i learned so much from him. it -- i almost forget bill clinton in those debates because it really was, ross perot really was the rock star for the people in their twenties. he had a huge following. i saw him in person. but my question is he was very good friends with john mccain. and from what i understand, he lost touch with john mccain when john left his first why. but he recently called a reporter from the new york times when john mccain was running for president, and i believe that reporter wrote an article, because ross perot made a personal phone call to him, that's my question. do you know anything about his falling out with john mccain? >>

he was for mitt romney, ross perot, the last presidential election, not mccain. it is part of that feud that ross perot has. we have to really understand that this is not someone playing right or left politics. he is not what we get on our cable talk show. even with what's happening in washington d.c. so anyone he thinks is abandoning the principles on doing away with packs or super pacs, you can see that mccain was willing to start compromising on a lot of his integrity and principles. so perot abandoned him at that point. but i also just want to say that we got aside to ross perot that is about action. it's whatever it takes to fix the problem. he is not really about top. i think there is a famous quote

that one of his favorite things is i don't want to hear about people that say the river is 30. i want people that are going to clean the river. get out there and do things. he is enigmatic in certain ways. he's mercurial. you cannot pigeonhole him. a texan they want strict gun control. he's pro environmental protection agency. he's pro-choice. yet, he's tough on issues about corporate america and outsourcing of jobs. he is tough on the warm drugs. you can go around. what you get is a sort of old style can do american who believes in american exceptionalism, but feels we are losing our edge. that somehow, after world war ii, americans got lazy and not the everyday working american, but everyone is looking for leisure time and parks instead of kind of fixing the country. country comes before

corporation to ross perot. i think he is diagnosing in 92 and 96 that american politics are broken and that the financial system is broken. the military is not broken and he's questioning how do we fix the other two. he still feels that way today. >> that color mentioned that as a young person in her twenties watching the debates and sharing on mr. perot. in our next set of clips, we will do a montage from two of the three presidential debates that happened that year. >> these young people, when they get out of this wonderful university, will have difficulty finding a job. we've got to clean this mess up, leave this country in good shape and pass on the american dream to them. we've got to collect the taxes to do it. if these a fairer way, i'm all ears. but, you see, let me make it very clear. if people don't have the

stomach to fix these problems, i think it's a good time to face it in november. if they do, then they will have heard the harsh reality of what we have to do. i'm not playing large music tonight. >> you have to admit the nafta agreement, where they people -- people a dollar an hour, have no health care, no retirement, no collusion controls, etc, etc, etc. and you're going to hear a giant sucking sound of jobs being pulled out of this country right at a time when we need the tax base to pay the debt and pay down the interest on the debt and get our house back in order. >> who can give themselves a 23% pay raise anywhere in the world except congress? who would have 1200 airplanes worth two billion dollars a year just a fly around them? i don't have a free reserve parking place at national airport, why should my servants? i don't have an indoor gymnasium and an indoor tennis court and an indoor every other thing they can think of. i don't have a place where i can go make free tv to send to my constituents to try to blame washington to elect me the next

time. and i'm paying for all of that for those guys. >> ross perot and three moments from the debates in the fall of 1992. and for the incumbent, george h. w. bush, there was a tough moment in those debates that you will recall. he was captured looking at his watch doing one of the debates. that became emblematic. we have a photograph of it. >> i remember that moment. look, george herbert walker bush had a tough year in 1992. everything was going wrong. i remember when he he said it's the economy stupid. he sort of felt it was getting by -- beneath him. in 1960, we had the kennedy nixon debates, but we did not have presidential debates all the way until 1976. there was some feeling that debates were all a waste of time. it was about owning a soundbite.

it wasn't about building an organization running the country was about. it did not help president bush to be glancing at his watch in that regard. i think it cost him in the election. perot and clinton did better in these debates than bush. >> carolyn barta, how did ross perot fare in the debates in the eyes of the public? >> i thought, you know, i agree with doug, that he probably won the debates. when george bush looked at his watch, it's sort of reinforced the idea that people had that he was not really engaged in the campaign. the debates were critical for perot. when the debase were over, he had risen back up to maybe 21%. and 96, he was not in the debates. it made a big difference. i think he only got maybe 8% in 96. so i think, you know, going

back to the question that could anyone else do it today? the problem might be getting on the debates because now the commission on presidential debates has such stringent requirements. somebody would have to meet a 15% threshold on -- and i think maybe five different polls before they would be allowed to be in the general election debates. so, the debates were very critical for the success that he had. for getting his message out. >> carolyn barta joining us from dallas, a longtime texas journalist who wrote a book about ross perot's 1992 campaign in the people who helped him get on the ballot in all 50 states. let's take our next call. it's from houston, texas. gregory, you are on the air. >> hi, good evening. i had a couple of quick questions. first was, besides having the most popular votes since dr, what similarities do you see

between mr. perot and teddy roosevelt? second, who were some of the role models for mr. perot? he seems to have followed the mantra william jennings brian, harry is truman, the buck stops here. what do you think about that? >> douglas brinkley has written a biography from teddy roosevelt. he will take the question. >> recently, when i got to talk with mr. perot, his two evergreen heroes in politics is theodore roosevelt and winston churchill. he takes a lot from them. we forget now that both of them were considered, you know, a cowboy when roosevelt became president, mckinley was assassinated and the republican party of mark hanna and bill mckinley did not trust the are. he was considered and iconoclast, and individualists. particularly, it's that hold cowboy notion. ross perot grew up in texarkana.

his father was a cotton broker, but he was also broke horses, went to cattle auctions, considered himself a bit of a texas cowboy. so everything about the adore roosevelt impressed ross perot. i think it gave him courage. if t.r. you can do a bull moose party, why can't i run in 92? churchill, it goes without saying, but anyone who loves freedom and democracy ingrid encouraged winston churchill. those are the two people that i think he admires most. in his office, there's a portrait of george washington. he talks about the founding fathers. but you know which founding father ross perot is like? i thought about this today. patrick henry. we always talk about the other founding fathers, the actual once you become president, but this is about the contenders. how do you have an american revolution without that figure like patrick henry and those are the types of people that ross perot admires. >> next is a call from ron watching us in everett, washington. hi, robin. >> good evening.

i would like to challenge doctor brinkley a little bit. i think the comparison with t.r., even though people might have idolized him, is heavily overdrawn. you mentioned just a few minutes ago that, if i understood correctly, that perot favored the flat tax. that's the antithesis of progressivism. i think t.r. was way out there to the left and the liberal progressive tradition. of course, obama this week, on the 100th understory of a t.r. speech there. even though he may have supported an oil tax, i don't think he really was a wilderness warrior the way like t.r.. >> i'm not suggesting that. those were his heroes. people have them. t.r., a lot of people see him theodore roosevelt what they want to see in theodore

roosevelt. but this ability whip t.r. and his love of the navy. ross perot's devotion to the navy his entire life as a naval academy graduate. you can't go to the naval academy and not admire theodore roosevelt in the navy. and then also, as i mentioned, the cowboys side tea are. but no, when you are getting with the bull moose party platform versus ross perot and 92, there's many differences and many decades apart. but it's the boy scout part. you mentioned ross perot is an eagle scout, theodore roosevelt is the original champion of the boy scouts. it's harkening back to that kind of view of america. but in politics, great differences and i would not compare him the way you are suggesting to t.r. or winston churchill or anybody. it's just those people that he admires and collects books on and likes to read about. they have inspired him the way

henry ford and thomas edison were people who inspired him in business. >> and from illinois. hello. >> and, are you there? >> yes. >> i voted for perot in 92. i believe that is how clinton got elected and bush did not seem like he cared whether he got elected or not. >> thanks very much. >> do you think that ross perot is responsible for the election of bill clinton carolyn barta? i do. and i think there were two impacts. one is similar to teddy roosevelt. he split the republican vote and, and that way, roosevelt denied taft a second term. perot split the conservative vote and denied push a second

term. he did another thing. i think by getting in the race and beating up on bush all along the way, kind of softened him up for clinton to come in and make the keel. so i think it was sort of a two tiered effect there. i'm not sure how the campaign would've played out without him. i certainly think part of the impact of his being in the race was that clinton was elected. >> the next call is from rick in memphis, tennessee. hi, you are on the air. >> glad to be here, folks. i'm going to assert that ross perot, last time he ran, was exactly what the united states needed. and now, there is no question it's exactly what the united states needs. i would like to ask, i'm not too well up on what is going on, why is he not in the 2012 race?

also, why in the world are neither the republican or democrat candidates making a run in ross perot's image? i don't see how anybody running like that could help when? >> carolyn barta, why have we not heard from mr. pro this cycle? >> i think his time is past him. i think he had all of it that he wanted in 92 and 96. it was really sort of a reluctant candidate in 96. i think that he's older now. i just think he's not interested in getting back in the fray. >> ross perot, 81 by our calculation. >> does ross perot have any opinion of fellow reform party member jesse ventura? >> i don't know of his opinion of him personally, but he did not get behind jesse ventura, who was a little surprising

because ventura being a a navy seal, and of course a reform governor of minnesota. but ross perot didn't really get behind him in his efforts very much. so there's a little bit of a chisholm there. i think by 1996, ross perot did what he wanted to do. i get stressed for people this notion of being in irritant. was always trying to make us pay attention to issues. i know when we talk about running, you talk about winning the white house. but i think he would not have picked stockdale if only wanted to do was to be president. you want to remind people of honor and country and all style american values and to grapple with that that issue which, as a business person, he found repulsive. a bad road for america to take.

>> we have referenced several times that ross perot won 19% of the popular vote. no electoral votes. let's look at how the incumbent president george h. w. bush did and the victor, bill clinton. as we look at it, we will listen to julie in august in, utah. you are on, julie. >> the one guy that got us all interest in politics back then. he got us with the nafta agreement. we used to go to these meetings he had with his helpers. we saw that nafta agreement apart and we would all take a chapter home and read it. we would come back and discuss it. boy, people should read that someday and see the fiasco they did on us. what i was wondering is you can you see anybody around it on the future that would be anybody like him? thank you. >> thanks very much. >> we have a question for you. is there anyone in the wings? >> i think they have to come out of the military today. we used to be that to be

president you had a military background. i think ross perot is part of that tradition. maybe somebody out of an admiral or a general sunday will come in and run a third party movement. but i don't see anybody out there that is ready to put skin in the game right now that is taking seriously. buddy rome are is looking to run a third party. he's no ross perot. i think you need to have the money to really do a third party. as previously mentioned, it is hard to get into the debates in the way the system is set up today. america always produces unusual people at key moments and i'm sure there will be sometime in the future a serious third party candidate. >> americans seem to have something of a flirtation with businesspeople as presidents. for example, ross perot. there was some talk about herman cain earlier this year. also, mayor bloomberg was mentioned as a businessman who might solve americas economic issues. we get so far as an electorate with them and then not all the way to the finish line. can you talk a little bit about

the kinds of people americans it seem to want as leaders? >> i think that some wonderful point. we like the idea of somebody who is not part of washington. somebody who's going to do what is right for the country and not be beholden to the democratic party or the republican party. we like thinking that either people from the military or corporate people will know how to run the government. yet then you have to start going on the treaty shows and traveling and every aspect of your life gets investigated. i don't know how many people who want to run anymore. it has become pretty brutal. we basically have to run for two or three years a nonstop. president obama, and i'm sure republican romney or gingrich or whoever it might be, have to raise about a billion dollars. it's very off putting in america. i think we need to really investigate how we can shorten this nonstop running because

the president have very little time. they get elected and then were running another election in this country. i do not see how it is helping us. >> that color mentioned ross perot's involvement in nafta, the north american free trade agreement, which was a hallmark of the clinton administration. ross perot got very involved in the debate about that after his unsuccessful bid for the white house. our next clip is a bright well watched debate he had about nafta, with then vice president al gore, again on the larry king live program on cnn. let's watch. >> i don't interrupt you. we've got to have a climate in this country where we can create jobs in the goodall usa. there's one thing that the president and the vice president could do for us and they are not. >> excuse me, i would like to say something about that. that is a direct political threat against anybody who vote for this. >> he's a great soldier, doesn't know anything about business.

>> i don't want to sit here and listen to you just take shots at president clinton. >> if we keep shifting our manufacturing jobs across the border and around the world and destroy -- the industrializing our country, we will not be able to defend this great country and that is a risk we will never take. >> he started off as head of united we stand. i'm afraid he's going to end up of divided we fall. everything that he is worried about will get worse if nafta is defeated. they say it is a historic opportunity to do that. >> thank you both for this is story keeping. carolyn barta, the body language in that clip from larry king is interesting to watch. it's adjusts that support for nafta before that debate was about 34%. after, i'm not sure directly related, but after it went to 57% among the american public. what was the view of how ross perot fared with this issue?

i really can't say. i don't recall. i just remember that he had the debate with gore. i did not realize that you lost the debate as decisively have you -- as you have just said. i thought a lot of people agreed with his position that the giant sucking sound of the jobs going away. and in fact, i think he's proved to be prescient about that. that is what has happened. >> next call is from larry in the florida keys. you are on the, air larry. >> i appreciate the opportunity. i just wanted to ask, t.r. set up the first wildlife areas for birds and florida keys. did that ever come up in any of the debates in that year? i'm old, but not that old. >> okay, thanks very much. do you recall the conservation

issues which were very much at the forefront in 1990 to? >> no. but ross perot, when you hear about anti nafta, he's very worried about the environmental degradation going on in mexico. he was someone who wanted corporations regulated, as i mentioned earlier, probably pa. t.r. was very much and bird protection and protecting wild florida. i would not put conservation in that way high on ross perot's list. when i put him on the side of being a conservationist. he was simply in that climate in 1992 to be pro epa in a way that he was, as you know in this election, many republicans don't like the epa.

ross perot did because he never -- he did feel that companies need to be regulated. in 1984, the gop had a historic retaking of the house of representatives. newt gingrich, who was a candidate for president this year around, looked upon as the architect of that. he became speaker of the house. he set the stage for a huge debate over the size of the debt leading to the government shutdown that very much pitted the two men, president clinton and gingrich against one another. how responsible was ross perot's highlighting of the debate issue for those subsequent events. >> that's a good question. i think is quite important. i think it started making people worry about the deficit. but again, perot is talking about paying for it with a gasoline tax. you don't hear republicans talking about that. it became a big worry of the people by the time of, you know,

throughout the clinton era. i might also at when we are looking at that famous gore clip. nafta became popular with both republicans and democrats. bill clinton, but also george herbert walker bush. it was only labor unions who were opposed to it. here you have ross perot probably more right center than left center. he was deeply opposed to it for the reason you said. i think the outsourcing of jobs more than anything else is what perot was focused on in the mid 90s. >> carolyn barta, in 1995 ross perot started to organize the -- what became the reform party. can you tell us a little bit about that effort and have the reform party took shape? >> well the people who had worked on the pearl campaign in 92 wanted to remain involved,

and for a while, they were even very active as shadowing their congressman and sending letters and so forth. so the reform party then was organized to try to create a vehicle that would be a stable political influence, a third party. in the convention of 1996, perot and dick lamb, was the governor of colorado, indicated an interest to run on the reform party ticket. burrow then reemerged to lead the ticket. that probably was the high point for the reform party. after that came jesse ventura was elected governor of minnesota in 98, i believe. and then in 2000, pat buchanan

was the nominee, the presidential nominee for the party. you was a firebrand conservative, but also a populist. what he certainly could not, you know, motivate we reform party people like perot did. and the party was sort of awe ... it initially was established with the same kind of priorities that perot had set in his first campaign. reducing the deficit, term limits, some of these issues that ended up being in the contract for america. so i think there definitely was an impact and you saw the republican party co-opt some of those issues. term limits was never passed, it was part of the contract. so i think that with buchanan

in 2000, the party was struggling to find its core. what was it all about? and a lot of people thought that perot, not perot, i mean buchanan did not really represent them. he did not represent their interests very well. i think what has happened since then is the party has really sort of fizzled. there are a few state affiliates that are trying to be active, maybe half a dozen or so. but their presidential candidate got a handful of votes in the last time around. so i think it just shows us and it's really very hard. i thought it was going to be a stable political influence and that once established, that it

would be a challenging party in years to come. but that is not -- has not happened. it certainly has just fizzled. i think sort of reemerged in the tea party movement. so i think maybe these movements just have a short term life. >> let's go to galveston, texas. joe is watching us there. good evening, joe. >> yes, hello. >> yes, sir. >> well, you know, first of all i would like to really thank c-span because every now and then, people call in and say you are on one side or the other. but by and large, i think you are probably the most unbiased media outlet and the greatest asset to being able to understand what is going on in our political situation that we have. i really appreciate having so many people on from both sides. i think it's a wonderful thing.

>> thanks for your kind words. do you have a comment about mr. perot? >> i do. first of all, i'm from texas so we got really involved when ross perot was running and he said so many things that made so much sense. a lot of people got behind him. first of all, i don't think the balanced budget would have happened had ross perot not been up there having all those charts and graphs to educate people. i'd like to hear douglas brinkley's comment on that. one more comment and that would be when they talk about teddy roosevelt. teddy roosevelt was one who broke up stand-alone new jersey, and i can't imagine ross perot ever being someone who would condone breaking up. i would like your comment on that. >> thanks very much. it's doug brinkley who is our

guest tonight. probably happens to you pretty frequently. >> teddy roosevelt seems to have struck a chord. >> he is in the air now. president obama just gave the anniversary in kansas, or talk about the new nationalism. a couple of things i would like to mention. i've been reflecting on what we've been talking about here. one of the big things to keep in mind and ross perot in 1992 is that you had the soviet union collapse. the cold war ended in 91 when perot is entering a 92. there is a lot of jubilation with that. we had been finding the cold war from harry truman on down. taxpayers had built up this huge deficit to win the cold war. the fact that perot was being the sort of irritant in the nineties, wearing about a deficit, i mean, everybody was running up deficits around the world. he seemed a little more erratic. today, we hear these bites and he seems prescient on a lot of things, but he was sort of a

fly in the ointment of 92, 93, when america was looking, the buzzword was globalization. also, political correctness became a great term. well, he was not clean on globalization. he was about america first. and he was kind of a curmudgeon in many ways on a lot of issues. so i'm not sure we could have even done the sort of retrospect on mr. perot like we are doing tonight. maybe even a decade ago. it may have seemed a little more like a quirky offbeat character. but there are those sides to him in his biography. but his central premise of the points you raised are really -- they really resonate with people right now. and again, with theodore roosevelt, the point about t.r. is only one and that's about service to country. that is what t.r. was all about. you do not live, you tell the truth, you stay loyal to your friends and your service to your country. it's in the american grain.

it's americanism. that is what spoke to ross perot. not every issue that t.r. took, but it was the character of the man. >> in 1996, the economy was getting pretty robust. the tech bubble was part of our economic fabric. bill clinton was the incumbent president seeking reelection. the republicans had nominated longtime senator from kansas and senate leader, bob dole. our guests had the big difference was that ross perot was not permitted to take part in the debates. on the screen right now are the results on election night 1996, with president clinton when 49% of the votes and 379 electoral college votes. bob dole with 159 electoral college votes, which is 39% of the vote. ross perot with zero electoral college votes in a different showing than his earlier showing with just over 8% of

the popular vote in the 1996 elections. our next clip is ross perot on election night 1996 talking about the future of the reform party. >> we are going to keep the pressure on on the major issues. i think they've gotten the word on campaign finance reform, don't you? >> they've repainted and been reborn. my dream is they will go to heaven because they do what they say they will do. right? and it's done. it's done. but that's got to stop. we have got to get that and we have got to get campaign reform in terms of time for campaign and all of that done. we must set the highest ethical and moral standards for the people who served in our government and all that has got to be changed from rules to laws in the next four years. we are going to have to stand at the gate and keep the pressure on and we will.

[applause] we will not let our children and grandchildren pay in 82% tax rate which our core -- government forecasts they will. we have to got a balanced budget amendment. we need to have a plan to balance the budget. and all the things that you have fought so hard and so long for. we need to stand in the gate to make sure that happens. that's if we want to pass on a better, stronger country to our children. we will make the 21st century the best in our country's history, but you and i have to stay on a watch. we have to keep the pressure on. and as i've said 1000 times, what does it take to make all of the people go away? that is do all of this and then we don't have anything to talk about, right? gets done. thank you.

you work at night and it. you've done a tremendous job. take a little break and then will climb back in the ring and keep the pressure on to see that everybody keeps those promises. right? >> great. >> ross perot on election night 1996. doug brinkley, he talked about the need for the people to keep the pressure on. without a galvanizing figure, you've often pointed out the truth that our national debt is now three times what it was one ross perot was talking about it in 1992. what happened to the spirit and the energy of the people in that middle who were the perot or the reform party members? >> i think they're out there. i think they are called swing voters right now. i think many of them are independents. we have a lot of people who are independent. many people who don't really want to be associated with the democratic republican party. perot's legacy speaks to that. at the outside of the program, you mentioned occupation wall street people protesting on the left and keep party on the right. it's about grassroots people getting engaged, getting

involved, making themselves heard. so it's not just a group of money people kind of running our democracy. there's a spirit to ross perot. i've never been convinced that he was dead serious about winning the white house 92 or 96. i feel what he was trying to do, which we constant -- many of these contenders have tried to do, some of the ones, it was just to start things up. to get people to talk about issues and he succeeded in that regard. he did not have to win the white house to make a difference. it's about getting into the arena. he got beat up some, but he picked himself up and today he's probably the first citizen of dallas with his business interests. he -- a few years back, he sold dell for a fortune. some of his business innovations. if you can't be in dallas without being touched by his philanthropy, then you can't be

a veteran of american wars and not have a debt to ross perot as well. so he's made a difference and that's why he was sent the walking stick of bin laden -- by the navy seals. >> let's take our next telephone call from robert in ohio. robert, you are on. good evening. >> hi, yes, thank you for c-span. i remember the 92 election well. ross perot, he was a viable candidate, he was prescient in the deficit. he seemed to speak common sense. he was a patriot and went to the naval academy. tell me if i'm wrong, but he was ac glee unelectable because he was mercurial. he started company that benefited from government contracts. he nominated stockdale first vice president. that debate was a gun fight and his candidate was not prepared. he dropped out of the race claiming dirty tricks by the republicans and then re-entered the race. he also had previously opposed

the vietnam war memorial and did it in a relatively nasty way. so you say that he wasn't a candidate wasn't really trying to win, but i don't think he could've won. what do you think? >> i agree with that. i'm not sure it was possible to win in 92 and 96 against bill clinton and the democrats. an incumbent president who just won the gulf war and saw the breakup of the soviet union. it was german reunification and many other policy issues. so he was, as i've said a few times now, someone trying to raise consciousness level on issues that he thought were important for the country. the reason he's important to history is some of those issues that he raised in 92 are still with us today, and only in a more day glow fashion than they were in 92. so there's some of these people that you can look at, things

william jennings brian said that later happened in the new deal. are some things that charles evan hughes says that later is reflected in the eisenhower era. peru -- parole racing issues that we are still grappling with the day. and there's always a reminder that we have a third party option. that maybe some time, that if these other parties get too arrogant, that there will be some voice from the heartland of america that comes up and strikes a different cord. i worry that the debates now make it very hard for a third party candidate to get into the mix. so parole in that regard maybe one of the last two have been able to pull something like that off. >> carolyn barta you mentioned that ross perot in the summer of 92, was involved in this campaign, after the 92 election ed rollins, who continues in his political works, and is still active today, talked a bit about his view of the perot

candidacy. we have a clip of that right now. >> the bottom line wasn't that burrow was difficult to deal with, he was that he never wanted to run that kind of campaign. he always wanted to do what he did, run the last 30 days. and i think the reality -- because that's all he thought he had to do. he thought well why should i waste on my money are we, when it really doesn't matter until the end? he really understood getting the find in the negative way, during the summer. obviously, the guy has a lot of paranoia, as they always say about paranoia you only have to be right ones to make it all worthwhile. [laughs] but the bottom line is he just didn't understand the political system. he had a disdain for it. so that made it more and more difficult. and we were trying to argue what you had to do, had he dealt with the media, how he had to lay out your issues. how you had to define yourself. he saw that as traditional politics, and he was against traditional politics. well, in the end, he ran a very

short lived traditional campaign in which he ended up getting very negative in the end. and he won 19% of the vote. if you would've ran a real campaign, there was a very serious chance that this man made a very viable candidate for president, drawing an awful lot of support from boris george bush and bill clinton. >> carolyn barta you are here a after the fact, you have anything the your career disagree with this summation? >> well, yeah. i think at one point reform party usa perot was a very viable candidate . >> but i think that he was, as the caller said before, he was quirky, he was curiel, and as people got to know more about him, they questioned whether or

not he was temperamentally suited to be in the white house. and i'm not sure even that perot thought he was suited to be in the white house. and perhaps, you know, the sentiment that has been expressed, that he really didn't want to be president, he wanted to stirrup the american people. he wanted to be the nation's civic teacher. he wanted to make democracy work again, for the people. so i think that he resisted traditional politics, in many ways. for good reason, he thought the political campaigns the way the run today, they are really silly. i mean, flying around from place to place, trying to get a soundbite on network tv, a plaintiff press following you around. essentially, in a bubble,

listening to the same speech over and over again. what are they gonna learn? he thought the press should be out talking to the people, white are the concerns of the people? and how are the prime candidates addressing those concerns? so, i think rollins wanting to run a traditional campaign, perot did not want to run traditional pie -- campaign, in for good reason in his. mine he thought, traditional campaigns are out of date, and are not working for the american people. and i must say, i think that we've seen in election campaign since then, that the media had just grown more and more powerful, and dominant, in some of the campaigns. >> so, doug brinkley doug brinkley as caroline is talking, i'm just thinking about if races are catchphrases in the age of twitter. >> oh gosh, yes that is true. he would've probably been able to use twitter quite well. because as he wanted to get

words that they, are ideas out there, and the people what we talked about tonight, was innovating behalf in our format, or going on larry king, basically. larry king was free, media freeway for many politicians. but then buying these -- but keep in mind, it's hard to create another ross perot. he's an iconoclastic figure, and also a billionaire. and he had the money to be able to do what he did. but i think he would've been, he would've enjoyed being president, he would've served people way -- well. , but i don't think his heart was in it in 92, or 96. it was really about getting the democracy and the people back -- at his core, he just state a lobbyist. and washington is a town filled with lobbyists. ross perot not only take advantage of paid media, but

benefited from the popular culture coverage of his campaign. next is a series of clips from saturday night live, whose regular program on saturday night's took great advantage of the ross perot candidacy in 1992, let's take a look. >> in addition, because we at nbc feel it's important for you to hear his views, independent candidate ross perot is with us from houston. mr. perot, do you feel that you have been blackballed by the two major political parties? >> so the other two candidates, they're not addressing the issues. >> thank, you thank you mr. perot. >> now my reform bernie's gonna have a convention, and that's fine, larry, this is not about me, it's about the american people, plain and simple. >> well ross, what about this commercial, that you aired last week? >> vote for me, i'm ross perot, i'm running for president, vote for me please. would you vote for me, please, please, please vote for me.

>> [applause] >> now this whole thing fascinates me. say, you don't have to be a ph.d. and harvard to know that our kids will infect -- inherit a four chilean dollar deficit. and that is some crying sake. now if i'm president, we start cleaning up this mess on day one. it's gonna take some sacrifice, no doubt about it. but i know the american people are ready to sacrifice. because it's your country, you have to take it back. >> clips from saturday night live, with both 92 and 96, obviously, and the first was dana carved portraying ross perot. we have ten minutes left in our contenders discussion of ross

perot and his 92 and 96 bids for the white house. let's take our next white house, from a guest, tony are on the air. >> hi, good evening. susan, how are you? >> great, thanks. >> when ross perot, in the spring of 92, when ross perot was at about 32%, he had already had three books written about him, before most people even knew him. one was, you mentioned, the wings of eagle. there was an auto -- biography by a dallas news reporter, called ross perot. and the best of the three at the time was a book, irreconcilable differences, ross perot versus general motors. in may, as i said, after he had announced he was at 32%, on this week with david -- made a statement about ross perot, in the conversation around was basically this guy is at 32%, do you think he can

win? and donaldson made a statement something to the effect of what do we know about this guy? he came out of nowhere. now, at that time the three books were in print already. donaldson knew this was going to be a big mouth covering of the white house, making probably 500,000 dollars, to make a statement like that about ross perot. he probably hadn't even read the books to make the statements. what do you think about abc news allowing sam donaldson to make a statement like that, and not following it up? >> well, there is also a book on perot, of anybody watching, a fine book by a new york journalist, it's an excellent book on perot. i don't know the moment you're talking about. sam donaldson, i thought, was a great and exciting commentator. certainly during the ranking years, he was always taking two questions in president reagan, and they ended up becoming great friends. he's really are journalistic

legend. so i wouldn't say anything negative about him, because i can't see the context of what you're talking about. but i understand, you are making a good point. sometimes, the washington media people think that nobody is accomplished, and they are not part of a kind of new york, washington, boston axis. and here, ross perot, a legend at the time in texas, which everybody in texas knew quite a bit about. because he had worked on education, reform, and he was the most well-known person in the state of texas. so it seems to be donaldson, with the spirit of it if that's what you're saying, he just screwed up. >> carolyn barta from 1996, when he lost a second time, how visible involved in issues was he, did he evolve in the national, stated he stay involved?

>> he pretty much exited, i think. he was not particularly involved in issues, or in reform parties after that. i think,, you know 92 was really a specific time, because of the sense of alienation, that people had with government dissatisfaction, towards a government. the economic problems, and then in 96, as you said earlier, think started to come back. this same political climate didn't exist anymore. so really, he did not -- he wanted the people dissed a active. and involved. but the climate didn't exist for the kind of perot phenomenon to happen again, as it did in 92. and i think that was sort of his swanson, he got out after that. >> sacramento, chance -- jason, you're on. >> yes, i just want to ask.

how do you feel perot what do you know 2013 election, currently. if he was on the same wavelength as he was in 92? and another question, if you don't mind, i believe with 19% of the vote in 92, or something. >> that's right. >> i recall it being in the aliens electric number, but i know it wasn't too far behind for a third party. thank you very much, there you go. my question is, how is it possible that he didn't win one electoral vote? i mean, i know how the electoral process works, but i just find it amazing but not one vote, not one state, he had a majority, and not even a small state, it's amazing to me what the numbers that he had. it's just very shocking. and it was shocking in 92, when i voted for him, and it was shocking it's shocking to look at the numbers again now. >> jason your first question about how he would do in the 2012 election. mr. perot was in his early eighties, so are you seriously

interested in bringing him back into the process at this point? >> thank you, of course not now. but if it were 20 years later, when he actually was -- if he was the same as 92, how would he do now? would be a landslide? >> i see if you could take ross perot in that period and drop him into our current timeframe, how would he do? >> well he came in second in 1992, in utah and maine. did not win a state. and it tells you that's where his support was. it's very hard for a third party candidate to track against the democratic party, in the apparatus. when you have at any given time half of congress and half of the senate on your side. and endless circuits. but it was ultimately in a two party system, once in a while the third party will make comes, i'm sort of a slap in the face to the other two parties. the seminal question, which we can't answer, that historians can debate, but will never have a definitive answer, is who did perot help and hurt in 92? if he had not run, could george

bush be -- beat bill clinton? did he service as a spoiler for president bush? or some people suggest, you know, his support came from liberals and conservatives. in a kind of watch, in the way that 19% wasn't that relevant. because he was so center oriented, in many ways, radically center if you like, he took from both right and left. and we can't really clearly answer that question. but most people would say he hurt george bush, that he was more conservative because he came from texas, and that challenge hurt bush a lot. because he was incumbent. so bill clinton was actually helped by perot, in 92. and >> some analysis of the numbers, that the supporters suggested 70% of the borough voters had voted for george bush, in 1998. >> 88. >> 1988, excuse me. >> we have just a couple of

minutes left, and to the second caller, the colors second question. i wanna play a clip, and this is about the last one for the evening. this is one from ross perot infomercial, that he purchased before the 92 election ad. a 30 minute commercial on october the 1st, the first one he did october 92, and he looks ahead from 1992 to the year 2020, let's listen. >> if you look at the growth of federal spending, there's a trend here. you've all the way back to 1950, there's obviously a trend here, we go up to 25% of our growth national product. that's excessive. hold on to your, hat if you and i don't take action now, as owners of this country, the forecast shows that by the year 2020. federal spending will be 41% of the gross national product. we can take 25% we can for 21%, this is kind of like wilson in charge of the bank folks.

he was a famous bank robber. they asked him what he wrote banks? he said that's because that's where the money is. well, our bank is being looted big time and we will get to how in a little bit. >> ross perot in his 92 campaign. we have 30 seconds, doug brinkley. what was the ross perot candidacy all about? >> when i saw that by chart, remember that it's pre-internet. when clinton became president in 93, no one used email. by the time he left office, there was like a billion in miles an hour going around the world. it's a sort of antiquated moment. by the end of it though, ross perot made a difference. he reminded people of old-fashioned american values. he reinvigorated the notion that a third party candidate can get into the mix. ralph nader obviously made a difference in 2000. so he is a legend in the third party movement. he's just, i think, a person who was rightly part of the contenders. >> carolyn barta, your last 30 seconds. did ross perot make a difference?

>> oh, absolutely. i think he was a wake up call. he put issues on the agenda and the deficit ended up being a surplus. the budget was balanced during the clinton years. so now, maybe, the people already think that we need another wake up call. so, yes, he definitely had an impact. >> as we close out our contender series, to special thankyous. first to mark parkas who's the executive producer of the series and our guiding light for all 14 of these programs throughout the fall. andrew presidential historian richard norton smith who has been our consultant in this project and really the brain child behind it when we first got started. thanks to both of you for all of your hard work. and we close our ross perot court contenders program with a look at his theme song. this is election night 1992 as he is greeting his supporters. >> just having said that, ed, you have to play our campaign

song, crazy. there we go! crazy! ha [applause]

up next on american history tv, the first of three 1992