john wukovits discusses his book, "dogfight over tokyo: the final air battle of the pacific, and the last four men to die in world war ii ." the group talks about a group of aviators that were attacked over japan shortly after receiving word that the war had ended. the national world war ii museum hosted this online event and provided the video. jeremy: thank you all for joining us today for what will be a great conversation about a really engaging book that maybe should have been written before john got to it in the last 75 years since the war, "dogfight over tokyo." it's a great book. he's the author of many books, and came to us

about 10 years ago. he came and visited the museum, gave a presentation on his book, and we have not managed to get him back here. we tried. he was going to come in april of this year, but of course things got out of hand, and we had to postpone that event indefinitely to talk on one of his other books. but i'm sure most of our viewers here today know many of john's books. "hell from the heavens," "for crew and country," and "tin can titans," which one the elliott -- won the elliott morrison naval literacy award. it was awarded regarded naval history. so congratulations on that. many years belated. as i mentioned, john was supposed to come in april, and thankfully we were able to work in the distance learning team to bring these programs to you all. this one, specifically, has to

do with our theme of the end of the war, specifically the 75th anniversary of the end of the war. we will get right do it so we can try to get as many of the audience questions, asked and answered by john. but i'm going to start with a handful of my own questions first. john, let's give the audience a brief summary for those of you that have not read the book. give us a brief summary of "dogfight over tokyo," please. john: well, "dogfight over tokyo " explains the story of the last four americans to die in combat in world war ii. by that, i don't mean to say they were the last four men to die ever. this was in combat. we had thousands, obviously, of veterans who, through the decades, passed away from injuries and wounds they received during the war. but these were the last four to actually be in a combat action

and then die. so i tell this story of those four. i also interweave, with that, the story of the air group of which they were a part, air group 88. and you and i will explain that a little more later, their activities in the final two months of the war. the book shows how a bunch of young aviators, hot stuff, arrogant, bragging, ready to go to war, eager to get over there. and they really were because they want to match their flying skills against the japanese pilots. it shows the gradual transformation of that attitude toward a more hey, i don't want to be here kind of feeling. so, i take the reader from training in the united states and then to hawaii and saipan. after that, they join the

carrier, yorktown, and operate off the coast of japan in the final couple of months of the war. so basically that's what the book is about. jeremy: great. so what brought you to this book? why did you decide to write it when you did and what resources were out there? what did you use? john: ok, i first came across this idea 10 or 12 years ago when i was researching for a biography of admiral halsey that came out, i think, in 2010. and in there, halsey mentions in his autobiography that, on the final day of war, some pilots were killed, and he said they should never be forgotten. and that struck me. so i put that idea -- you know, i filed that away because i had other projects coming up. then, finally, a few years back, i turned to it and thought it's an intriguing idea if i can find out enough material to flesh out these four aviators.

i mean they obviously did not survive the war, so what about family? fortunately, i thought to myself, if i can find two of the four and get enough information on that, it'll work. and i did it. i found plenty of information from two of the four families. and so that enabled me to flesh out those two, plus other material on the third and fourth aviator, as well. so, i picked up from kokomo, the hobbs family had billy hobbs' diary, and flight log, and all kinds of things. i interviewed billy hobbs' sister, nancy, who i just communicated with a couple days ago. she's in her mid-90's, and going strong. the mandaberg family, we have a picture there of dwight billy

hobbs. his first name is dwight. everyone called him billy. he was a guy who just loved aviation. his sister, nancy, said billy was born to fly. as a kid, he made planes out of balsa wood. that may be before your time. i don't know. i used to love playing with those things. he would make aircraft out of anything. a nearby airfield, he would run out to watch the planes land, or especially when barnstormers were coming through town in kokomo, indiana. so, everything about him was, "i want to fly." i love the excitement and the thrill, so that was what billy hobbs is all about. then i contacted the mandaberg family. you have a photo there of eugene manda berg -- mandaberg.

and he was quite opposite from billy. whereas billy was all excitement and action, he had a good time dating girls and things like that. eugene was someone you called eugene. you didn't say hey, gene -- it was eugene. serious, studious, he loved reading books. he wanted to be a writer. he was. he wrote some columns for the michigan daily paper, on the campus of ann arbor in michigan. and he had a sharp wit. but not the kind that said hey, i've got a great story to tell you. did you hear the joke about the this and that? it was, he would watch and

comment on what people were doing, how they said something, or things like that. his stories were all about social ills of the time. he wrote a short story about a lynching in georgia, and the evils of that and another story about a young soldier who went off to training camp and came home with a sharpshooter metal and was bragging to his mom. he said don't worry, we're only shooting at targets. she says geesh, my god, he doesn't even understand what he's about to get into. so, eugene was the serious one. while billy wanted to get into fighter aircrafts, specifically to match his skills with the japanese pilots in aerial combat, eugene got into fighters because he did not want to fly a torpedo plane or dive bomber, where he had two or three men, whichever plane we're talking about. he said i don't want to be responsible for anyone else's death in the air, so i'll fly a fighter. then you had a third one. i'm not sure which picture you have coming up here.

the joe salock, who was from new york, and joe was one of those cocky aviators. you know, you watched tom cruise kind of thing," and just the way they act was the way he was. he always had a cigar, it seemed, though that picture doesn't have a cigar. he was known for that. he had a party in the united states just before they were going to go over to the pacific. joe saloff was the wing man for the squadron commander. he told the commanders wife i promise you i will bring him home safely. that didn't turn out. in one of the actions, their planes knocked slightly into each other and he went spinning to his death.

the fourth one, howdy harrison, was a veteran aviator, had already seen some action in the pacific, and he was the father of a couple of children. one, howdy, in that picture, is in the middle, being held up in celebratory fashion by his buddies aboard the yorktown. he had been the subject of a fascinating rescue at sea while they were off the coast of japan. he had to land his plane in the sea of japan, and then the catalina dumbo, the nickname of the aircraft, flew across through thick overcast, horrible conditions. but they succeeded in rescuing him, pretty much right from under the noses of the japanese defenses, the way the newspapers described it.

he had two children, one he had never seen because the child was born after he went to the pacific. so, those were the four aviators. the book focuses on the first two, billy hobbs and eugene mandeberg. now it's interesting, when they were in training, eugene mandeberg met a gal in new york city, sonya levine, and they fell in love and planned to be married once he returned. so that's a prominent feature in the book. they obviously did not get married, but it turned out sonja, who was still alive and is today, in new york city today, so i was able to interview sonja about her recollections of her love from 75 years ago. jeremy: one of the things about the book that drew me in was basically what we do at the museum, the personal stories, using the personal accounts, and having the fortune of being around those who were living during that time.

john, you mentioned they were operating off of the coast of japan. when we think of the air war over japan, i think nine out of nine people would think of the b-29 raids that were launched from the marianas islands. tell us about these operations. what was the purpose? how close were they getting? tell us about the operations beyond the b-29 heavy bombers. john: yeah, these are quite different, obviously, smaller aircraft, torque planes, and i bombers. they had, under admiral halsey, the third fleet was stationed off the coast of japan. and since it was a fast carrier task force, they could attack one installation, factory, shipyard in japan, and then be 200-300 miles away and attack something else. their purpose, before the atom

bombs were dropped, was to hit these targets, these military installations. to prepare the way for the scheduled november invasion of japan itself, which which was supposed to be a massive operation, obviously. so their purpose was to eliminate as many of those military targets as possible. after the atom bombs are dropped, it changed. instead of hitting those targets to prepare for the eventual invasion, they were to hit those targets to prod the japanese to the peace table, keep pinning them harder. halsey kept saying we've got a keep hitting them with everything we've got, even on the last day of the war. he said, do you think we have enough left one more strike? he was under orders to do that. but as halsey had some ulterior motives, and i don't know if you want me to get into that now or later. jeremy: we can get into halsey

later, as we talk about the decision to launch the mission. john: ok, do that later? jeremy: yeah. group 88, off the coast of japan, their normal operation, they would have a morning and afternoon strike that would entail three parts. there would be two sweeps by fighter aircraft of the target area to eliminate antiaircraft batteries and clear the way for the dive bombers and torpedo planes to follow. they would have one of those in the morning, two sweeps followed by a strike of the dive bombers and torpedo planes. they would then have another one in the afternoon. they had 12 of those in the little more than a month that they were off the coast of japan. jeremy: the missions they were

running, just for our non-pacific historians, but the more european audience watching us today, reminded me of what the pre-d-day invasion in normandy and the missions, what they were watching, the air force, to blow ridges and communication centers and soften up the landing ground. john: that's a great comparison. jeremy: so, they were on the cv 10, the yorktown. they had a lot of time between missions. they had a lot of time to ship out from the united states. tell us about life on board with the crewmembers of the yorktown. john: yeah, as i said, they had the 12 strike days, the mission days, and they were there say five weeks. so there was time, while the carrier was moving into position for another attack.

the air group, first of all, aboard an aircraft carrier, you pretty much had two crews. you have the ship's company of about 2700 officers and enlisted. the ship's company, their task was to take care of the carrier and get it ready to launch aircraft. nothing more than that. they existed for the air group. the air group was a separate crew of about 300 aviators, divided into four squadrons, a fighter squadron, bombing squadron, torpedo planes, and what was called a bombing and fighting squadron. they were a separate section aboard the carrier. now, the yorktown's ship company would stay with yorktown for the duration.

air groups were generally aboard for up to six months, and then rotated out so that they could teach what they knew to train aviators and be incorporated into other squadrons because they wanted some experienced flyers in there. in their off time, i'll call it, they were generally in the ready room. there were four ready rooms, one for each of the four squadrons. those ready rooms were -- i was at the yorktown. it's floating off of patriots point there in south carolina. they're not as large as we might think. they're cluttered, but they spend all their time there. that's where they would go to get the final information before a mission. and in the meantime, they would be there playing cards, smoking, or teasing one another, whatever the case may be. so, the aviators that i interviewed told me that was pretty much our home base, the ready room. we had ours and the dive bomber

pilots had theirs, etc., etc. so that was pretty much it. their routine for the time that they were off the coast of japan, a few hours of intense, lethal activity interspersed with many hours of, "hey, let's fill the time with whatever we can." jeremy: the timeline is important. i think, in most popular memory, you have august 6 as the hiroshima bombing, and august 9 as the nagasaki bombing, and of course that led to the japanese decision to surrender. but there is a week plus lull in between where the bombs dropped and the actual emperor's message is broadcast. and i think that gets us to the august 15 mission. can you give us a little bit of background on that mission?

as you said, they were continuing to deliver their payloads on the japanese because they had not surrendered. but talk a little bit about that window, and i'll ask a follow-up question when you finish. john: sure. first of all, the missions -- there's a nice map of the final flight. their missions, when they first arrived, where against general targets that they wanted to soften up for the invasion. after the atom bombs, the flyers -- everybody, the ship's company as well, they wanted to get out of there. hey, the war is practically over. let's not keep this up. why do we need to attack an airfield when an atom bomb has wiped out two cities? and so they couldn't understand

the necessity to going out and facing these antiaircraft batteries. you have to try to understand what it's like to fly into that , into that flak, and aircraft carriers shooting straight up at you, and you're diving down. and you can't weave to avoid the fire because the planes have to lock in on their targets. so, as one aviator told me, there is no skill to it. it's just luck. pure luck. we hated every minute of it. these guys didn't want to sacrifice their lives when the war was going to end any time, but they followed orders, obviously. and they went out on a couple of missions after the atom bombs were dropped, and a couple of guys were killed. august 14, one of the men recorded in his diary, "god, i hope we don't have to go out on another mission tomorrow." and then he added, a little bit

later, "father moody," that was the catholic chaplain, "just came by to say no dice. we're going on a strike." and the next morning, they had to do that. hobbes was with a team of 12 hellcat fighters. hobbes was not supposed to be on this flight. he was scheduled for a later day. another team of four was supposed to go, but howdy harrison, the team leader, of which hobbes was a part, traded places with that other team because he said hey, billy needs one more mission for promotion to lieutenant j.g. he was an ensign. he needed one more to get promoted to lieutenant j.g. so will you switch with me? the other team was happy to

switch. billy wasn't necessarily overwhelmed with joy to switch, and off theyranged went, even though one of the pilots said, "is this really necessary?" they took off a little after 4:00 in the morning. the 12 hellcats did. a cloudy day. so as they got closer to japan, two of the 12 hellcats were ordered to a higher altitude so that they could relay messages to and from the carrier yorktown. so now, the hellcat number was down to 10 that proceeded down -- that proceeded onto the target. after that, a team of four, led by a guy named marvin odom, got lost, and the action report said odom's team became lost in they

said, "a finger of overcast." i was never sure what to make of that. it doesn't sound like a very cloudy area, but he became lost, and those four planes were now gone. the hellcat number was down to six that continued toward their target, which on the map that is showing, is just south of tokyo. little bit to the northeast of the dotted line there. so they continued on toward tokyo. as they got near atsugi airfield, they were getting ready to attack when the commander contacted them and said hey, stop. we just received word the japanese have agreed to cessation of hostilities. abort your mission and return to the carrier. of course, that news he gave to ,ll of them, all six of them hey, we're going to be going home, gonna survive the war, all

of those thoughts went screaming through their minds. they turned back, and you can see on the map, just north of the airfield, and they were on their way out to tokyo bay when 15-20 japanese fighters jumped them. they became involved in a furious dogfight. joe saloff, one of the men who survived said he saw joe saloff's plane going down over tokyo bay, but saloff parachuted out. he saw that but that's all he knew. then that same pilot saw another hellcat explode in the air. but that guy got out by parachuting, as well. the other two of the hellcats to be downed that day were smashed into farmland or terrain, right

around the yokohama nasse machi area there. so, that left two guys who got back to the carrier yorktown. four who didn't, four who were shot down. the air group was crestfallen. one of the guys said, you know, this is supposed to be our happiest day. the war is over. but it wasn't. it was our saddest day. because not only do we lose four good friends, but we lost them in the final moments. technically, you could say that these four were shot down after the war ended, if you want to, because they had been alerted that the japanese had agreed to a cessation of hostilities, but they hadn't yet officially signed the surrender document. obviously, that was in september. so they were crestfallen. one of the survivors, marvin odom, whose team was lost in the finger of overcast, said an interesting thing.

he said he heard that howdy harrison said to the other guys, once they learned the war is over, let's continue on and take a tour over tokyo. and then they got shot down. i spent some time in the book explaining why that just was not feasible. first of all, how would odom know what he told those guys? odom was going back to the carrier. secondly, who is going to take a tour over anti-aircraft areas that have been firing away at you all war, now manned by japanese who are angry about surrendering? i talked to a vietnam aviator who flew over 100 missions over north vietnam, and i asked him, if you got that message, let's go on the tour, what would you do? he said i would turn around on my own and go back. i would never go on a tour. we would get out of there as fast as we can. but while that was going on, there were two japanese farmers

tending their field, and they saw this dogfight occur, and one of the planes crashed not far from their field. they went over and inspected. and it was a planes in hundreds of pieces and things. and they contacted japanese officials who came out, and when it cooled, they gathered up the remains of a person. but there was no head, no limbs, just a trunk. that was all. so no identification could be made. the japanese did, they wrapped it up and carried it to the local buddhist shrine for the buddhist monk to take care of. so, they properly took care of the remains of whoever that particular pilot was. now while everybody in the united states, everybody in the pacific was celebrating the end of the war -- well, everybody

from the pacific was the united states, great britain, etc. everyone home in kokomo, billy hobbes' hometown, through an -- threw an all-night celebration. cars after midnight drove through town, honking their horns. booze freely flowed. everybody was having a good time. the hobbes and mandeberg families couldn't celebrate. they were happy. they assumed their sons were safe because, let's face it, what are the odds of my son is going to die in the final moments of the war? nah, that's not going to happen. but still cautious. let's wait until we find out. in the coming days, others received words from their loved one that they were coming home soon or later, and they didn't. in fact, some of the letters written to billy hobbs for his birthday, which happened to be august 15, the day he was shot

down. that was his 22nd birthday. some of the letters and cards were returned to the hobbes family with that horrible stamp, "return to sender." they're going what, what's going on? it wasn't until september the government officiant informed them those four pilots were missing in action. they couldn't be declared dead, because there were no remains, so they had to keep them on the books for a year and one day as missing. then on august 16, 1946 is when they officially declared them missing. since the families buried mementos and memories instead of the actual remains, open wounds persisted for a long time. both hattie hobbs, the mom of billy, and zelda mandeberg,

eugene's mom, truly believed one day their sons would come walking through the front door. they never gave up that hope. they knew it wasn't realistic, but moms being moms. you know, nancy hobbs told me fronts always out on the porch. thought billy would come walking up the pathway there. every year on the anniversary of that death, august 15, hattie hobbs had a poem printed to honor her son. in 1946, an army registration team recovered the remains of the pilot that crashed in the farmland. they took those remains, eventually, to the philippines, and buried them. along with the remains, which

they couldn't identify because dna wasn't in existence then, they did recover some pieces of the aircraft that indicated probably the plane came from the yorktown, and it was a hellcat. so it was one of the three. joe saloff parachuted into tokyo bay and was gone. it was one of either hobbs, mandeberg, or harrison. eventually, the government's dna team caught up with everything. and just two weeks ago, i was informed they have those remains in hawaii and are testing them. they've already taken dna samples from the hobbs, mandeberg, etc. families, and hopefully they will come to a conclusion on who that person is, and one family, at least, will get that kind of closure. jeremy: it's an important mission that the dod still carries on. a quick sidebar, the museum is in partnership with that agency, the defense pow mia

accounting agency. we have a research historian here, a post doc young man, who is helping them research the last actions of those who were fallen and remain unidentified. so hopefully we'll figure out which one of those three boys it was, and the family will be able to have a proper burial. john, a couple follow-ups on that. you had mentioned the celebrations, obviously, for the allied side. what was your experience with any of the japanese archives? we had an interview a couple of weeks ago on the anniversary of the sinking of the uss indianapolis, and the co-authors mentioned that the sub commander came home, even though he had just sunk a capital ship, he came home feeling dejected as a loser, because they had just lost the war. was there a japanese reaction or were they happy they got kills

in the closing days of the war? closing hours? john: the main reaction would have been the first one you mentioned, the indignity of losing. one said all of us were willing to fight to the death, but now we had to surrender. it was hard for them to handle that. and that's why you had some of the incidents of japanese planes attacking different areas, possibly the 15 or 20 who attacked the hobbes group may have had that as a reason of vengeance for having to surrender. but they certainly considered it a loss of face, and only hearing the emperor's words pretty much was what sealed ok, we've got to accept, as the emperor said, we have to endure the unendurable. jeremy: the biggest name, the

greatest man in your book, is one of the most venerated in american military history, admiral halsey. he plays quite a role in your book, and a controversial one at that. how does that tie-in? how does he tie-in? john: that it does. as i mentioned, i did a biography of halsey earlier. i have long loved reading about admiral halsey. fascinating guy. aggressive. he sort of almost invented the soundbite years before that was even a phrase. he was quotable in the press. newspaper correspondents loved chatting with him because he would give them something to chew on. quite often laced with profanities. if we put an actual quote of his this screen,p on there would have to be asterisks and question marks all over the

place to fill in for the cuss words. [laughter] he, in the early two years of the war, brought american morale back up after pearl harbor. he did a marvelous job, and for that alone, he deserves a place in the pantheon of naval heroes. he attacked some early island raids in early 1942, and he took doolittle's raiders out to lunch on their bombing raid over tokyo. he went down to the south pacific as the commander of the south pacific and turned around the situation there. so he contributed greatly, and the home front made him a big hero. well then after that, he started making a few mistakes. he blundered at the battle of leyte gulf, a portion of the battle of leyte gulf, by leaving his post to chase after aircraft

carriers. so, he missed out on the battle of coral sea and midway. he wanted a crack at japanese carriers before the war ended, so he went chasing after that. and that allowed another admiral to storm through the san bernardino strait. and only the courageous actions of three, admiral sprague and the ships of jim horn fisher, the last stand of the tin can sailors, prevented a complete disaster there. so halsey was criticized for that. then in december of 1944 and june of 1945, he led his ships into two typhoons. which one of them caused considerable damage to ships and lives. he would've been sacked, but he was such a homefront hero that admiral king in washington said we have to keep him on. we can't get rid of him. for halsey, his stationed off the coast of japan was a chance

for redemption. a-ha, my reputation is tarnished, but if i can finish off the japanese fleet, if i can pound them to the last day of the war, i will redeem and salvage my reputation. therefore, some of his judgments, you know, according to air group 88, and every man i talked to in air group 88, condemned halsey without blinking an eye. that's their instant reaction. i blame him for the deaths, that kind of thing. because the weapon that halsey was using to help regain a reputation were the aviators. billy hobbes, mandeburg, etc. so there's that controversy. was he correct in doing that? well, he was under orders. nimitz and king told him you have to do this.

you have to follow orders. but the question is where those orders even appropriate when there was so little left of anything to hit? so, that was the controversy. it was hard for me to even write that section. i was writing a group about air group 88, so i had to write it from their point of view, their anger at this admiral, that i think deserves a little bit of a break because of the first years of the war, the contributions he made there. but still, if you talk to air group 88, bill watson, he was there, watch out for what he might say. lieutenant hennessey in virginia, the same thing. he did pound the japanese navy, the remnants of the japanese navy, pretty much out of existence, so he did achieve a lot under the orders he was given. but some say he went too far and he could've canceled at least that last strike, when the japanese were literally hours

from saying ok, we give up. jeremy: to your point, my second to last question here, then i'll close with a final question after we get some audience questions. sadly, there must be somebody who was the last person to die in the war. these four men, as far as the comment hours were concerned, were the last four in the pacific theater. was this a mistake? john: if it was a mistake, it was a mistake made by superior command, yeah, a senior command, by either king nimitz or halsey. it was not a mistake by the aviators. it was a tragic event, i'll say. that they went out -- they didn't want to, but they did what they were supposed to do. they did their duty. and so that, in itself, is admirable. in talking about this, i often

think of "band of brothers," and you probably know the episode of the river, sending men out to capture a german prisoner of war, "why do we do this when the war is almost over?" that commander canceled the mission. the aviators of air group 88 would have loved to have captain winters in command, i suppose. what they did was not a mistake. they were doing their duty. and their deaths were certainly not in vain, even though it should never have happened. jean mandeberg, spelled j-e-a-n, eugene's niece, today is quite an artist on the west coast. she said, john, as i was growing up, i knew about eugene, and i felt him within me. he was driving me to do something creative. he wanted me to be a writer and never got the chance, so i must

be an artist to at least have someone doing something creative like that to honor his memory. natalie schneider, who is billy hobbes' grandniece -- and don't ask me to figure out who she is -- anyway, the family told me she is the grandniece. i think she's in college now, but when she wrote the paper, she was a freshman in high school for her english honors class. they could write a paper about anything. she chose her topic as an imaginary scene where patty hobbes, billy's mom, is telling billy's siblings, including nancy, that billy's dead, that he was killed. natalie, 60 years later, she's writing about something that obviously has meant so much to that family. because of these things, sonya

levine, the girl who was supposed to marry eugene, and the mandeburgs, jean mandeburg and her family, united. they got together after all these years, and shared all kinds of information. thinking, eugene is reaching out across all these decades to bring us together. even though we never got married, sonya said, he was the first great love of my life, and i have never forgotten him. now, she went on to marry someone else, had a wonderful life, and still does in new york city. just yesterday, after you and i talked a little bit, i got any email from terry hobbs from kokomo, saying hey, august 15 is coming up, saturday. thanks for writing the book. a lot of people in town are coming up to us and telling us what a remarkable thing billy hobbes did, and just how much

the family appreciates that after these decades, billy has been recognized for what he did. so, i don't think there's too much in vain for these pilots. it was certainly a tragedy, but as you said, someone has to be the final to die. unfortunately, these four were. jeremy: as you started this conversation, john, you said there was a goal to make sure these four were not forgotten. with your wonderful book, "dogfight over tokyo," i think you've ensured that the next couple hundred years, as long as there are books or kindles, those four won't be forgotten. so, thank you very much for this presentation. we have a few questions. we're going to start with one from mike, who's watching on facebook. he's curious about the degree of information that air combat information that officers had about the location of potential pow camps and how the pilots processed this information. if you came across anything with

the pow camps, did any of them, air group 88, write about or talk about the anxiety of hitting or striking near them or striking on them? john: yeah, they knew the location of many -- i don't want to say every single one -- and tried to avoid it. the interesting thing was that, after august 15, the other aviators of air group 88, especially of the fighting squadron, they scour japan. -- scoured japan. they went to every prison camp they could. they checked every record they could. can we find billy hobbes? etc. etc. so, they did know the location of many of these, and they would go out and check to see, maybe they were shot down and captured and maybe they were still alive. unfortunately, that didn't pan out. jeremy: did any of the men comment or leave journals about

-- and not just the four who died, but any of the 88 -- about the potential of striking their own comrades? john: no specific comment that i came across. i read a lot of diaries and letters, and i did not see one. jeremy: great. and i see our wonderful helpers, chrissy and kate, have just put the link to your book in our store. of course, that's on our website or support the museum's educational mission. we hope you check that out. we have a question from anthony, who was watching the zoom here. do we know whether the japanese pilots who attacked our planes knew that the emperor had surrendered before they took off? how much after the broadcast of -- did the -- broadcast of the emperor's surrender message did the dogfight occur? john: yeah. the high likelihood is how i'll it. i can't say with 100% certainty, but yes, they knew about it, and

they went out hunting for something. i didn't find anything in any records of that air group that indicated that they were going out to seek vengeance, but it's likely that that was the case. in my book, that's how i put it. it could've been for some other reason. maybe they didn't know about it, but probably they did. jeremy: we have another question from mike here. he's interested in the research process for the strike reconstruction. i think he's referencing the map that you used in the book. was this all from after action reports? did you put it through the flight logs? just tell us about how you came up with that. john: yeah, the after action reports were fascinating. and most of my information came from those. an after action report was filed by each squadron, by each

aviator, after a particular action was carried out. and so, you go to those. the flight logs didn't help a whole bunch. first of all, these four pilots never made it back, and they changed their path, their flight route there. and so there was nothing much in the flight logs. it was reliant strictly on what the survivors, odom, hansen, proctor, those men, and what they wrote. and by that, i could get a description. if an after action report said that the pilots were 10 miles southwest of the airfield, i knew how to plot that on the map. if odom said we were attacked five miles east of the airfield,

i knew how to route that on that final map, as well. so it's a combination of the official records plus personal reminiscences. jeremy: great. john, i know the answer to this, because we're in communication, but i think the audience would like to know, what's next? and i understand there are two things in the works. john: there are two things. they sort of happened coincidentally. at the same time with the same publisher. the one i'm currently immersed in is a biography of a marine officer named general louis chesty polar, who is considered the marine's marine. he's a legend in the marine corps. he was awarded five navy crosses for his actions in nicaragua and in the pacific, he was all kinds of other medals.

the men loved him. he was someone who would rather hang around with the privates and corporals, especially over the staff back at headquarters. they drove him nuts. but i'm doing a biography on that for dutton. they're doing a series on great war commanders to be out in paperback version early next year sometime. the other one involves eddie rickenbacker. now, some in the audience will know eddie rickenbacker, the famous car racer, indianapolis 500 participant, who then in world war i, became the leading american ace, chasing after german pilots and things like that. well, in 1942, eddie rickenbacker went on a secret mission for the government. they asked him to fly over the -- to the south pacific and deliver a message to general macarthur. on his way out, the plane made a crash landing.

they ran out of fuel. they couldn't locate one of the interim destinations. they overshot it because of navigation mistakes. they were lost at sea for three weeks. by they, i mean a group of eight men who were on the plane. newspapers in the united states. actually, when i started researching this, it was just about the time that kobe bryant died. and the reaction to eddie rickenbacker's death was even more so than that. all newspapers covered it, and eventually they gave up hope, and some even printed obituaries of eddie rickenbacker. well, they were found after three weeks at sea. they made it back. so i explained this to the editor, and he says, i've never even heard of this. it's a great tale. fortunately, there's all kinds of information. five of the eight men -- one did

die during his time in the pacific. five of the seven who survived wrote books about it, small books. and i've been in contact with four of the families to get other information. so, those are both of the next two books that i'll be doing. jeremy: great. well, we're looking forward to both of them. hopefully, by then, we'll host public programs in person and we can bring you back for one or maybe get a twofer out of you. john: i'm fine with that. [laughter] jeremy: michael has a question for you. were you able to identify the japanese pilots? john: no, no. jeremy: and can you talk about the japanese records, or lack thereof? john: i didn't find many. my efforts were on the action effort reports, war diaries, ships logs, and personal reminiscences. i like to interview the people

who were there and their families as much as possible. jeremy: understood. another question from david. you mentioned the pilot had parachuted into tokyo bay and did not survive. john: that's correct. they think it was joe saloff, they're almost sure. they saw his plane, and then they lost sight of him, and nothing ever turned up. jeremy: was the survival rates poor for pilots bailing out over water? and was that just par for the course that they would drown, or was he possibly wounded? john: no, if they could somehow make it down with their plane, crash land, the chances of rescue were very high. just parachuting into the ocean, the odds plummeted. but one chapter in the book is about air/sea rescues. it's fascinating how they did that. the u.s. navy would go right

into tokyo bay if a pilot was downed and was on a raft, and they would just pick them up right there. so the odds were ok that way. jeremy: a quick question just for clarification. the dogfight was after the broadcast of the emperor's surrender message? john: correct. jeremy: and was there, is there any record of any japanese planes shot down? this is from amy. any japanese planes shot down during this august 15 dogfight? john: the air group records indicate eight japanese planes were shot down by the six hellcat fighters. who did what is up for debate, but they do indicate eight were shot down. jeremy: well, i don't see any more coming in online, and we're just hitting that one hour mark,

which we want to try to hit. richard says great for answering his question, and i think that summarizes this conversation. john, you and i spoke yesterday, of the house of world war ii history. and there seems to be an infinite amount of doors to be opened. and you have certainly found a new door, a wonderful story that i think really honors these four men who perished, but also the air group 88, the yorktown, and all of those who served in the pacific theater. so, thank you very much for coming to share this on the eve of the 75th of the surrender. you've -- as i've mentioned to you, i read the book. skimmed it first, read it deeper, then really scanned it. so three times. and i picked up something new every time. i hope you all go and purchase the book. please join us next wednesday for our next webinar on the pope of physics, the scientist, enrico fermi, who was involved

in the manhattan project. that will be at 11:00 a.m. central next wednesday. and let's all give a virtual round of applause to our presenter and my friend, john wukovits. [laughter] thank you very much, sir. john: thank you, jeremy. it's been a pleasure. great questions. i know you're always prepared, which is not always the case with some people elsewhere, but you, i know, are top-notch. so, thank think everyone else, e staff for their help in every other person i was there. >> we will get you back soon and we will see you all back next wednesday. have a great and safe weekend. >> university of maryland baltimore county professor william blake teaches a class about new deal era politics and the role of public opinion on issues such as court packing and executive power. professor blake argues that while many of president roosevelt's policies had broad support, the general public fearing and upset to the balance of p i