this week, former chief of staff in the george h.w. bush administration. he shares his advice for biden chief of staff rob klain. >> i actually told him to pay attention to decisions that are being made by the president. you don't want the president making just government decisions. the president should be making presidential decisions, not every government decision. he will be blamed for every government decision, but the president's precious time should be making presidential decisions and getting ready to make tough presidential decisions rather than making government decisions. it's your job to make sure people who are making government decisions are making them the right way. >> find c-span's "the weekly" where you get your podcasts. historian mark depue discusses the 1945 battle of iwo jima and the importance of

the island to american and japanese forces during world war ii. the abraham lincoln presidential library museum hosted this event and provided the video. >> it's a pleasure to be here to talk about this important subject. i did a presentation about a year ago on d-day and it went over very well, i think. but i got several comments, hey, how come you never talk about the pacific theatre? i got that comment from some marines, in fact, and a couple of them are here tonight. so i hope they appreciate the effort. it isn't by accident that we're doing this presentation on the 13th of august. on the 14th of august was the official surrender of the japanese, and so the war ended and all the celebrations back in the united states were on that date. and on the 2nd of september was

the official signing ceremony of the uss missouri, and so that's the reason for the timing for the okinawa battles of the war. and because of of a picture that we're going to be talking about here in a little bit, it captured people's imagination like nothing else did in the pacific theater. and there's something that's very iconic now in terms of people's identity with that flag, with that picture and with the battle of iwo jima itself. and there will be a couple times we kind of weave that into the process as we go along here. but we have to start with a little bit of strategy. for the first few slides, it's very much an overview. july of 1944, what's going on in the pacific theater at that time? well, we'll see if this worked pretty well. in the central pacific, you have

basically a navy force supported with marines. well, see, i was warned about that. driving through the central pacific. and bloody victories in tarwa. there's one of the real blood lightings by the marines, seizure of the gilbert islands, the marshall islands and the marianas islands. that's as far as the navy and marines got in june of 1944. how about the army coming up from the south? primarily that's led by douglas mccarthy. they have new guinea. they skip through some places to include -- and heading to the

philippines, at least that's mcarthur's goal at that time. june 1944 you have the battle of philippine sea. and in that case you have the u.s. 5th fleet 15 aircraft carriers -- imagine that, 15 aircraft carriers -- against 9 japanese aircraft carriers. and in the process, the japanese lose three carriers, two actually two submarines. so, that's a set back for them. but in the same time frame you have what is now known as the great marianas turkey shoot where the air fleet, the japanese naval air fleet is basically decimated after that. there's really not much left. a lot of their senior best naval pilots died in that process. so, that's where we're at in july. so, july 1944 then, you have franklin roosevelt that goes out to pearl harbor and sits down with mcarthur and others.

admiral leahy who is essentially serving as the joint chiefs of staff, although that wasn't the official title, he was there as well. there was quite the debate. these gentlemen, some of them had very big egos. i think almost all of them did, had some serious disagreements about what to do. mcarthur, what he wanted was to return to the philippines. he had a strategic argument for that, but essentially the argument was the emotional appeal, the promise he had made to the filipino people that, i shall return. and he certainly wanted to do exactly that, to return to the philippines. and as you'll recall, the united states had guaranteed the filipino people their freedom in 1946. that happened before the war. and as far as the americans were concerned, that was an obligation that we owed to the filipino people.

so, that was mcarthur's argument. admiral ernest king, they wanted to go to formosa. that would make sense because they're coming from the central pacific all the way over to formosa. and why did they recommend formosa? because most of the things that the japanese military and the japanese homeland really needed were down here in the dutch east indys, rubber and especially oil and some other key supplies that they needed for their war machine. and if you're sitting in formosa, you basically cut that off. so, that was the argument that the navy was proposing. well, franklin roosevelt is a politician, and he finds ways to compromise. but the compromise essentially ended up favoring mcarthur's plan in large part and allowed

mcarthur now to continue his attack, his invasion of the philippines, landing first. and also now the navy's going to have to think about kind of an adjustment to their strategy because they're not allowed to go all the way to formosa. now they set their eyes on iwo jima. that seems to be the next logical step for them. one more battle that i wanted to talk about while we're on this slide, and that's the battle of the latae gulf. these are naval battles essentially. four separate engagements all around the philippine sea. and what you've got is the bulk of the imperial japanese navy versus the u.s. third fleet. so, you've got six japanese carriers versus 34 u.s. carriers. a lot of fleet carriers, a lot of smaller junk carriers.

but 34 u.s. carriers. the japanese lost four of their aircraft carriers. and they don't have the ability to replace those like the united states was doing at the time. the u.s. lost three of their aircraft carriers, but the advantage now is clearly on the allied side, on the u.s. side. and after that, the japanese navy really is not going to present a major threat to the u.s. as they move forward. and one other comment here, the air force, their equation in there. this is the u.s. air force. we'll talk about it a little bit more than this. they have two choices in terms of getting their aircraft to japan. just like in europe where the goal and the strategic bombing was to bomb germany and expressly berlin and some of the main manufacturing areas. their goal was tokyo and so many of the other major manufacturing cities in japan. so, you could either do that from china and supplying these

air bases in china by flying over the hump or over the road, which is torj rouse to begin with, was quite a logistical nightmare. or that's why the marianas islands, especially tinian, is going to be important. so, it looks like marianas islands are the place to go for that. so, let's take a look at logistics because i've already hinted on that a couple of times. it's all about logistics. and this is logistics on a massive scale. you've got 6,200 miles between okinawa and the west coast. i should say between iwo jima and the west coast, the united states. that's 26 days on the water. if you're talking about from pearl harbor, okay, now it's not

6,200 miles. it's only 4,000 miles and 17 days. this is a major hurdle. and now you've got to figure out -- you can't just say all this huge fleet of hundreds of ships from pearl harbor or the west coast to iwo jima. you have to have a staging area. and the utithi atoll is the place to do this. it's out in the middle of nowhere. look at this. here is the scale down here. look how small these islands are here. this is basically a corral reef with islands peaking through. when we get inside the corral reef, as you can see here, hundreds and hundreds of ships. that's where they have the major staging area. that's where they were able to do some major reconstruction and repair work on these ships. and huge supply depots.

it's, again on 1,000 miles from okinawa, iwo jima. the third, the fifth, the seventh fleet are all there. the seventh was the one that primarily was supporting mcarthur. and you're shipping everything across the ocean there, everything from bulldozers to q-tips. can you imagine the amount of oil that they had to ship from the united states or the tons and tons of ammunition that you had to ship over? or aviation field. and cigarettes. because i bet about the only thing you didn't want to ever run out of was cigarettes. the military ran on cigarettes at the time. and you had the supply hundred of thousands of soldiers, airmen, marines. and not only that, the war in europe at this time is still going on. so, big push is still heading to europe. and on top of that, the russians and the chinese are all

screaming for more lend-lease supplies and we're accommodating them with thousands of tons of lend-lease supplies, which includes a fair amount of the food that both of those countries are getting at the time. all of this because of this miracle of american production both in factories and on farms that is going on at the time. and that is something that i don't think you want to overlook at all. okay. now, for my air force friends, the b-29, the b-29 was the most expensive project the united states did during world war ii. and a lot of people think wasn't that the atomic bomb? the b-29 cost $3 billion. the atomic bomb development cost $2 billion. both of them are almost unimaginable to try to figure out the scale of these things. but here's some comparisons for

you. it's close to being -- i think it is the largest aircraft during world war ii. the b-24, another four-engine bomber, is 110-foot wingspan where the b-29 has 141-foot wingspan. so, much larger. the b-24 maximum takeoff weight is 65,000 pounds. the b-29, over twice that, 133,000 pounds. it has a longer range by quite a distance. it has a range now that reaches all the way from tinian island to japan. nothing else that we had was going to be able to do that and then get back. june -- excuse me. january 20th, 1945, gentleman by the name of curtis la may -- a lot of you can recognize that name from world war ii through the vietnam era -- command of

the 21st bomber command. he started the war as a major. i tell you, there was some fast rank being made in the air force during world war ii. the air force was about that big at the beginning of the war, and it was massive scale by the end. and la may switched the main bomber force in the pacific from china to the marianas islands. and he also made an important change as well. before that time, what the air force was doing was daylight bombing. and because of the enemy defenses, they ended up pushing those aircraft much higher. part of the reason for the b-29's success is they had this pressurized cabin as well as some new logistics and new firing procedures on it as well. but anyway. so, you can put these aircraft much higher.

but then when you're flying that high in daylight over cloud cover most of the time and over tough winds, the accuracy was pretty dismal. so, what la may does is says let's switch from that, from daylight bombing at high altitude to night bombing at low altitude. and oh, by the way, let's switch to incendiary bombs and basically burn the japanese cities out one after another. and that's what they ended up doing. many of you are familiar with the results for tokyo. the worst fire bombing of the war was tokyo with the estimates of something like 100,000 casualties in that one bombing raid. and this is just one of many. by the end of the war, they had to make some decisions about what cities not to bomb, so they had something left over to use atomic bomb with. but that's a different story. so, march 9th and 10th is the

bombing of tokyo. that's right in the midst of the combat at iwo jima. but it's very much part of the story. from tinian island, tokyo is 1,477 miles one way. from iwo jima, which is pretty much right in the middle, equal distant, it's 760 miles. so, instead of flying from tinian island, kind of making a dogleg around iwo jima because there is fighter -- japanese fighters based there, now you can capture iwo jima and use that as a immediate base in case some of these aircraft get in trouble maintenance-wise, or they're damaged somehow, they can land on their way back from japan on iwo jima. that's the strategic reason for iwo jima as far as the air force is concerned.

and there it is, the mammoth aircraft. you can see in the bottom left of that picture, the size of the crew. little bit about the japanese command of iwo jima there. lieutenant general kuribayashi -- i'm not going to try to pronounce some of these names. he takes command at iwo jima -- and that's him in the bottom right -- in may of 1944 and quickly recognizes that he needs to make some serious changes. and primarily he's going to be focusing his attention on building the defenses. and we'll get into more of that here in a little bit. he was a samurai in tradition. the samurai warrior tradition. their way of the warrior is what it stood for. and they were emphasizing the principles of honor, courage, skill in the martial arts, how to use a sword properly, how to

use a bow and arrow properly, but beyond that point as well. very much ceremony on many respects. and loyalty. loyalty to your master above all else. that was the code in which they lived. and he was one of those. but he was also a very pragmatic man. part of his pragmatism perhaps came because he spent quite a bit of time in the united states. in 1928, i believe, he was in washington, d.c. during that time he would travel across the united states seeing all kinds of different things that were going on in the united states at that time. and i believe later on he came back and was also based in canada for a bit. he even spent some time at harvard university. and here was his comment he made at the time that he was there in the united states. the united states is the last country in the world that japan

should fight. he knew. but he's now the commander at iwo jima during a time when the japanese fortunes are on their way down. general senda was a more traditional view of things. and his concept -- he also believed in bah she toe. where the two gentlemen disagreed was how the tactics were changing for the japanese soldier at the time. before this time, especially at places like tarot or even tinian, guam, other landings, saipan, you would often have the major defense for the japanese right on the beach. stop the americans right there on the beach, try to repel them. and if that didn't work, often times it would be accompanied by major banzai attacks. and we all know about the banzai attacks.

the japanese would just enforce, charge into american machine guns and artillery and get decimated in the process. cure yash shi thought that was lunacy. he want nothing to do with that. his approach was to dig in, allow the enemy to land on the beaches, wait until they get clogged on the beaches and unleash everything. but layered defenses, caves, tunnel systems, bunkers that were built. and, again, he had close to nine months to do that for iwo jima. senda was more of a traditional soldier. he thought he was still holding on to the code, the honor of dying in a banzai charge, the last thing you want to do is to surrender because there is great shame in surrender. the japanese had about 21,600 defenders in total on iwo jima. there was the 109th imperial

japanese army division. there was a sizable naval guard force. there were some port troops. you notice i have the word kamikaze up there. kamikazes had been introduced shortly before that time. and we're talking about naval air ships attacking american ships. they were used to certain extent here in iwo jima. it's going to be much more prevalent when you get to okinawa. and a few other support troops as well. one other colorful character that i want to mention here is lieutenant colonel takashi nichi. he commanded the tank regimen on the island. he had purchased a horse when he went to italy because the japanese were embarrassed in the 1928 olympics. and i'm almost embarrassed to say the name of the horse. the name of the horse he

purchased was uranus. and he won a gold medal in e question chan show jumping. that's the one and only equestrian medal the japanese won. he was a man about town. he had a convertible. he cohorted with people like the hollywood celebritities. he was very popular. and he ends up in iwo jima. he was popular in the united states. a lot of the old guard and japanese army, especially the old cavalry, looked down their noses at him and figured this might be a good place for him to end his career. but he would walk around and inspect the defensive works as they were being done with his writing crop in one hand and his

cavalry boots that he was wearing at the same time. a colorful gentleman. let's take a harder look then at iwo jima itself. okay. the geography of the place. it's a volcanic island. it looks very much like a pork chop, doesn't it? it's 8.11 square miles. the name of the island is iwo jima because that's essentially, in japanese, sulfur island. and that's what it smelled like. the volcanic sand that you have there. and one author that i read described iwo jima as a cinder clog 4.5 miles long and 2.5 miles wide. so, a tiny piece of land.

mount suribachi, a dormant volcano, 550 feet tall. that was the elevation. and for mount sewer suribachi, could see the entire island and the entire u.s. fleet east of the island itself. the way the japanese looked at this is their defeat was inevitable. kuribayashi went in with the notion that every single soldier there, all 21,000 plus soldiers, naval personnel who were serving there on the island were going to die in the defense of the island. that was just a given. he had told his wife when he got posted there that's the way it would work out. i already talked a little bit about the evolution of the tactics. and the new tactics were to wear the americans down, to bleed them white. and i thought it might be illustrative to read what

general kuribayashi's orders were to his troops. this is a quote. we shall defend this island with all our strength to the end. we shall fling ourselves against enemy tanks clutching explosives to detroy them. we shall slaughter the enemy. every one of our shots shall be on target and kill the enemy. we shall not die until we have killed ten of the enemy. we shall continue to harass the enemy with guerilla tactics, even if only one of us remains alive. those were his orders. can you imagine american soldiers getting those kinds of orders and the expectation that you're going to be staying here until you die one way or another? he forbade banzai attacks. so, just the opposite of what senda wanted to do, kuribayashi

forbade that from happening. here's just a small example of some of the tunnels that were honeycombing mount suribachi, but the entire island as you went north as well. that's what they were facing. most of the japanese were deep underground. okay. let's look at the american command. admiral chester nimitz, a texan -- no, a plains man. that's so typical for the american navy. they have people from the places like kansas and the plains that end up in the navy. an annapolis graduate. he was commander in chief in the pacific n. naval jargon, he's sink pack, commander in chief, pacific. that's what that stands for. quiet, a bit on the introverted site. fdr elevated him after he hired

admiral kimmel. you might remember admiral kimmel, who was the commander at pearl harbor the day that pearl harbor was attacked. so, kimmel is sacked. nimitz comes in. raymond spruance, he commanded a two carrier task force at midway. so, there's his claim to fame. kind of a last-minute elevation i believe because halsey, maybe, was sick at the time. of course midway was this incredible victory, the turning point of the pacific war. and so he's commander of the fifth fleet. here's one of the curiosities. halsey is in the pacific theater as well. and when halsey commands that same fleet, those same ships, it's the 3rd u.s. fleet. and with spruance is there, it's the 5th u.s. fleet.

don't ask me. i'm not in the navy. lieutenant general holland smith. he commanded 70,000 seasoned troops. he went by the nickname howlin' mad smith. there's a great name for a marine, i think, howlin' mad. he's remembered as the father of modern amphibious warfare. he beginning of the war he was rigorous in training his marines how to do exactly that, how to land and contest the beaches and survive the process. he's almost -- i had awe hard time trying to sort through this. i don't know if i want to call him a figure head, but he's not going to be directly involved in the combat as much as the next gentleman. that's major general harry schmidt, the dutchman who commanded the fifth amphibious corp. it included the 3rd, 4th,

and 5th marine divisions. a couple of these divisions, this is the first major combat that they're going to see. but they have plenty of veteran soldiers, veteran marines in their ranks who had been transferred around. so, there's plenty of experience in these units. they also had cbs there. that was going to be important because one of the first things you want to do when you get on land is get the airstrips fixed so you can have these b-29s land there. you had some udt, underwater demolition teams, and you had three black companies that are on the logistics and support side of things. but they're going to play a role here important once they get the major force on the land. okay. the plan of attack and operation detachment. that's what they called this. kind of a curious name, i think. they anticipated -- schmidt anticipated this would be a ten-day campaign.

didn't know for sure how many japanese were there. some estimates were in the neighborhood of 10,000. so, they were often that number as well. the udt teams are going to go in and recon as early as february 17th. that's a couple days before and that recon is going to be crucial. their job was to find out what the condition of the beaches were, where the defenses are, what kind of soil or sand they're going to encounter once they get there. the 5th marine are going to land on the left at green and red beach. and the 28th regiment is right here. their job is to take mount suribachi. that's their mission. and to do it as quickly as possible because, again, as mount suribachi, you can see the entire island. and if you've got artillery up there, and they obviously did, you can harass and shell the entire landing force. the 4th marines were in beaches

yellow and blue. and the quarry was the main toughest objective that they had. see, i did it again. sorry about that. that was going to be the toughest nut they had to crack that first day. the third marine were in reserve. we'll get to them in a little bit. okay. beforehand, you want to have a major bombardment of this. and the bombardment actually started months and months before. june of 1944 was some of the earliest bombing. and obviously at that time you're not talking about a bombardment from ships. you're talking about some of the air force assets they had or even naval aviation assets that they had at that time. going into the battle itself though, general schmidt, the ground force commander, 5th

amphibious corp. commander, asked for a 10-day naval prep. and the naval commanders at the time said, ten days? we don't have that kind of ammunition to use in ten days. that's almost impossible. we can't do it. they argued back and forth. and they finally agreed to three days. and because of weather, because those couple other factors, those three days were largely ineffective. and only in the last day or so did aircraft from aircraft carriers join in. and this is much more of a pinpoint operation when you're talk about naval air coming in and blasting weight. again, how long have the japanese had to prepare all this? how deep did they dig into the island itself? d-day, february 19th, 1945.

okay. there's the naval bombardment. that begins. and a little bit more on the naval bombardment. some of you might recall that i interviewed charles sayhee many years ago. he was at pearl harbor on the uss nevada on pearl harbor day. his battle station was -- and the search light position high up on the mast. so, can you imagine, he's watching pearl harbor happen high up on the mast of the uss nevada. the nevada got sunk that day, but they raised it. they refurbished it. by iwo jima, it's there offshore providing naval gunfire support. just on monday i opened up a letter from charles, who is now 97 years old, and he wrote about what you're just going to hear.

and he amazes me. >> the uss nevada was the flagship of the iwo jima u.s. invasion fleet. this meant that there would be an admiral on board the nevada who would command the activities of the gunfire support warships, 8 battleships, 12 aircraft carriers, 19 cruisers, 44 destroyers and 130 troop transport vessels and auxiliary ships. the nevada's main 14 inch guns provided gunfire to destroy enemy shore batteries. we stood ready to repel any incoming enemy aircraft missed by the 5-inch aircraft batteries. as the nevada closed to within 5,000 yards, chief fired white phosphorous shells on to the beaches creating a dense smoke. with added painful application

of burns on exposed skin. the half fish and half nuts would enter into landing craft, then into rubber boats, which took them toward the beaches. an afteraction report by the swimmers included presence of mines, anti-tank traps, fixed obstacles, firmness of black stand, firm mounts, water current, temperature, direction and surf height and strength. >> again, that's a 97-year-old who's writing that. those memories of that day. and it ends with this description of what the udt teams do. going into the beaches to find out more about that sand. so, for the marines out there, i'm sure when you went to marine corp. basic training you heard lots about the sand of iwo jima. and i've interviewed two people. i've heard from others -- who have viles or containers of that

sand from that beach. not necessarily because they were there that day. but that's the meaning it has. so, we'll learn more about that, why it's so important to marines in just a minute here. because next up is the landing itself. d-day, the 19th of february. clear and sunny. so, they had a little break in that respect. it's 6:45. the naval bombardment begins. and about that time, the amtraks are being loaded up and are heading their way on to the beach. and you can see the landing craft now is -- in wave after wave they're heading toward the beach there. at 0700 the landing craft are in line to depart two miles out. at 8:00, the navy stops firing, stop their bombardment and aircraft hit the targets with bombs and nepal.

the first wave of landing vehicle tracks goes in to follow by nine more waves. and the first wave lands at 8:59, the official designated time that they were to land is 9:00. so, they were off by only one minute. that's the precision that they had gotten to by this time of the war. they encountered really no significant enemy fire. general kuribayashi was careful to hold off any kind of major fire at that time. he wanted to have the forces start landing in wave after wave until they really crammed into there. and what the troops immediately found was a pretty significant trellis that they had to overcome, about 15 foot in a lot of cases. and soft volcanic sand, that dark black volcanic sand. and you step in it and you sink down to your ankles.

and then you've got 100 pounds of equipment on your back and you're 130, 140 pounds to begin with, got that much more on your back. try to run in that. it was almost impossible. they had plenty of track vehicles that were landing about this same time as well. but the track vehicles had the same problem of getting bogged down in that sand. and it was really only until subsequent ways that they got some bulldozers there that they were able to cut their way through some of these trellises and actually get into firmer ground once they got further inside. so, the cbs are going to be important. those bulldozers are going to be very important. they landed at 8:59. roughly 10:00 a.m. is when the japanese opened up, when things were really congregated on those beaches. by 10:35 you have elements of the 28th that are actually gone

far enough that they've reached the western side of the island. so, they're pretty much on track. things farther up the beach are really bogging down. it wasn't too much after that that the 27th regiment, i believe -- yeah, the 27th regiment -- also of the 5th division got the base of the airfield number one, just a little bit north of there. the toughest resistance they had anticipated was around the quarry all the way on the right flank. and a couple of the commanders figured that those poor souls who is the right most man of the right most unit of the right most regiment on that side, you only can pity them and figure what their chances are going to be. here's what john lardner said, a new yorker reporter about the marines that landed on red beach. and let me advance this just one

slide or so. here they are heading to the beach. you can see mount suribachi in the front left in front of them. there they are once they got to the sand. look how much -- you can tell how soft that sand was trying to navigate. here's what john lardner said about the marines at red beach. look around. i had a leisure for the first time to think what a miserable piece of real estate iwo jima is. no water, few birds, no discernible plant and animal life, humpback whales, and mice who carry disease live, and a steady dry dusty wind. that was the iwo jima that greeted them when they landed.

we were in apa, uss love -- >> this is with the fifth marine. >> we had steak and eggs and anything and everything you could want. then we at the proper time, we climbed down the cargo nets into our cvps and moved out around the mother ship. and then at certain designated time we took off for the departure line, which was where we all lined up to head for the landing beaches. and the first waves that landed hit the beach in an hour and a half to two hours across the neck of the island with hardly any resistance of any kind. i landed in the 13th wave at 1:00 and missed it by a minute or two of being right on schedule. and at that time, as i guess the best way to replace -- to describe it was all hell broke

loose. all the mortars, artillery, machine guns, everything zeroed in on the beaches and were giving us all they had. hit the beach and we all ran out and hit the deck, so to speak. well, my first impression when i hit the beach on the island, i could reach out and touch a dead marine with my left hand and right hand. they had camouflage paint on their faces, and that's when the shock hit me. i was there in the midst of the real thing. i started to raise up. and as i started to raise up, japanese machine gun knocked that volcanic sand in my face about 6 inches above my head. i ducked down, looked around to my right. and another lcb was coming in right just beyond down the beach where i had come in. as the ramp went down, a mortar shell hit right in the midst of the men running off. i quickly decided the beach was

no place to be and took off running from shell hole to shell hole. and it's to me still a mystery how myself and my 18 men all arrived at the right place at the right time, designated spot. >> lieutenant warren mush was the battalion intelligence officer for one of the battalions in the 28th regiment. that was the regiment that had to take mount suribachi. by the time the battle was over, his reck meant had suffered 70% casualties, which was pretty typical for the fighting troops at iwo jima. the main target for his regiment again was mount suribachi. the defense was commanded by a colonel and he had 2,000 japanese soldiers defending it. filled with caves and bunkers and artillery positions and everything else. machine guns, plenty of that. but again, on d-day itself they

had already isolated mount suribachi from the best of the island. and the battle was bloody. it was foot by foot as the marines are fighting their way up the slope of the hill. mainly on the north slope. the north slope, obviously, was the one that was observing the rest of the island. and by d-day plus three, they had basically fought their way all the way up to the top. in fact, right at the end of d plus 3, there was a small patrol that reached the top, was able to come back down. there wasn't much resistance that they had by that time. and report that they were able to make it up to the top. and the decision was made, well, let's move on d plus 4, the next day, more determined push to make the top slope and secure it permanently. now, about that same time, about a force of 300 japanese decide

the gig is up on mount suribachi. it's time to move north because we're not going to be able to survive this. so, a group of 300 japanese head north. only 20 of them actually were able to make their way through the american lines to reach japanese forces. they are met by navy captain, one of the senior naval officers in the japanese naval force there. and he was outraged. this is not what japanese soldiers are supposed to do. they're supposed to die in place, cause the enemy to bleed. and here's what he screamed out at these 20 who survived, especially to this lieutenant who had -- the senior member of that group. you traitor! why did you come here? don't you know what shame is? you are a coward and deserter. i shall condescend to behead you

myself. so, being a good samurai, he takes his sword out and he's about ready to decapitate this young lieutenant when his junior officers got ahold of him and grabbed the sword. and he didn't actually do it. what's his response to that? he's reduced to tears, and all he can say over and over again is, suribachi fallen, suribachi fallen, suribachi fallen, while he's crying. one of the more dramatic moments in the battle where there's lots of dramatic moments. on d plus 4 then, you've got mount suribachi. it's isolated. the first -- you've got a small group that then goes forward, gets to the top with a flag. somebody's taking a flag with them. and the first flag raising occurs on d plus 4.

and this is a picture taken by a marine photographer of the first flag raising. small and unpretentious. but that's the flag that the marines around the airstrip and the ships out in the -- in bombarding and supporting the landings, everybody sees this flag goes up. or everybody sees that moment when they realize there's a flag in the top of mount suribachi. so, there's this huge cry and cheering. the ships start to blast their horns. and they're excited because we've achieved something. it's about that time that you have navy -- secretary of the navy, james forstall is with general smith. they have now landed and they're in the vicinity of that airstrip, that first airstrip.

of course forstall looks up there and says, boy, that would be something to have. i sure would like to have that flag. and you can imagine what the commander of the troops that got it up there in the first place thought about some brass who decides they want to latch on to that flag, didn't take it kindly. so, a lieutenant colonel chandler johnson decides we're going to secure that first flag, but i'm going to have my men take another flag up there to replace it. and we'll give that first flag to forstall. so, that's what happens. they decided that they get a larger flag from lst 779, landing ship tank. those are the big ones that open up. you can pull on to the beach and lots of heavy equipment can come off of those. that's where they got the second flag. and several marines take it up to the crest, to the hill. that's around 12:00, noon. and it's that second flag now

that you have a civilian photographer, joe rosenthal, takes that picture. that's the famous picture. and here's what forstall says to smith about that time. smith's first name is holland. howlin' mad. he says, howlin, the raising of that flag on suribachi means a marine corp. for the next 500 years. he knew the significance of that symbol that they had. now, a lot of people probably think that was the end of the fighting in iwo jima. no, the fighting is really just getting started on day d plus 4. so, now we've got a situation that looks like this. they've got the rest of the island. let's see. it's about right here at that particular point in time. they've got the rest of the

island to secure afterwards. and a very determined enemy to prevent them from doing just that. so, combat -- here's how i explain this. combat on iwo jima -- and i've spent a lot of time studying civil war battles where you say this regiment moved here and that division or that brigade moved there. there's none of this. it's all individual small-unit actions, a squad, maybe a platoon. somebody would have to step forward and take initiative. i was reading about one company that went through six company commanders in a single day, six. and often times you would have a squad or platoon that would be commanded by a corporal or a private first class or something like that, somebody who's willing to step forward and take the initiative. the japanese had carefully set

all their bunkers in pill boxes so there would be interlocking fire. you would think you had accomplished one thing and all of a sudden you're getting fire from the flank and you're taking it. so, it was a slog, a bloody foot-by-foot slog they had. when american artillery and mortar and air strike came in, the japanese would withdraw in their caves until it passed and they would move forward again. they fought in place, they stayed in place, they willingly died in place. here's what general smith -- we just had talked about him again. here's what he said about kuribayashi's japanese defenses. kuribayashi's ground organization was superior. the only way we could move was behind rolling artillery barrages that pulverized the area and then we went in and reduced each position with flame throwers, grenades and

demolition chargers. we learned about them the hard way, through sickeningly heavy casualties. every cave, every pill box, every bunker was an individual battle where marines and japanese fought hand to hand to the death. and reading a lot of these quotes because i think that's the only way i can begin to convey what the combat was actually like. here's one of the authors that i was reading, how he described it. and one of the crucial weapons -- consider this as one of the crucial weapons -- was the flame thrower. the flame thrower was the most practical weapon for clearing the enemy from caves, pill boxes and bunkers. horrific in its effect. it saved the lives of countless marines who would otherwise have had to pry the enemy out in hand-to-hand fighting with an opponent who did not consider surrender an option. i don't know about you but i can't think of a more gruesome way to die than being engulfed

by a flame thrower. one of the people who played a role was a gentleman i had the honor of interviewing last year, her shell "woody" williams, one of 27 combatants on iwo jima who ended up receiving the medal of honor. he was in the 3rd division. the 3rd division, basically it was the reserve division. but it landed on d plus 1 and very quickly was in the heat of the battle. here's what he said about being selected now for a crucial mission. >> when we went across the airfield, we had no protection, so we lost most of our people. just as a statistic, when we hit the beach, we had 275 people in our company. and on march 5th, we were down to 17.

as we were trying to break through the pill boxes, they had all the protection because they're in a confined area. we're in an open area jumping up trying to run forward. and of course they would just mow us down. and my commanding officer had lost all of his officers except two and all of his platoon leaders and gunnery sergeants and sergeants and squad leaders, they were -- they were gone. and we were trying to break through a line of pill boxes that had been built to protect the airfield. so, that's when they called for a meeting of the ncos that were left in the company. so, we gathered in a great big shell crater had been blown out, and we could get below ground in a shell crater so that we at least wouldn't be shot at with grazing fire. and he was looking for ideas and

trying to figure out what are we going to do from here? there's not very many of us left. and that's when he asked me if i could use a flame thrower to eliminate some of the pill boxes. when i hit the beach, i had six individuals that were in my little unit, special weapons unit, that were flame thrower demolition operators. by that day, the 23rd, we had only been there three days, they were gone. i didn't have any left. i was the only flame thrower demolition guy in the company. so, he asked me if i thought i could do something about some of the pill boxes with the flame thrower. and that was my job. i have no idea what i said in response to him. some of the other guys said later that my response was, well, i'll try. so, he gave me four marines to

support me, protect me. and i just said, come with me. and i put them in position to shoot at the pill boxes while i'm trying to get to the pill box. and put the flame thrower on and took off. >> her shal was too modest to talk about the event himself where he earned the medal of honor. i would like to read the citation, or the relevant parts of the citation. quick to volunteer his services with our tanks were maneuvering vainly to open the infantry through the network of concrete pill boxes, buried mines and black volcanic sand. corporal williams daringly went forward alone to attempt reduction of machine gunfire. covered only by four riflemen he fought desperately for four hours under terrific enemy small

arms fire and repeatedly returned to his own lines to prepare demolition chargers. struggling back frequently to the rear of hostile em placements to ramp out one position after another. on one occasion, he daringly mounted a pill box to insert the nozzle of his flame thrower through the air vent, kill the occupants and silence the other. he destroyed them with a burst of the flame thrower from his weapon. his unyielding determination and extraordinaryism in the face of ruthless enemy resistance were directly instrumental to neutralizing the most fanatical japanese strong points encountered by his regiment. that's the essence of his medal of honor citation. those four riflemen who were

guarding him, i believe, all four were casualties and two were killed. again, that tells you something about the voracity. and it's only something of a small miracle that he survived only to be injured at the very end of the iwo jima campaign. with all these casualties that we've been talking about, you can imagine the field hospitals being filled up very, very quickly. and i wanted to read this quote as well because i think it's indicative of the attitude, the spirit that the marines had at that time. and this is a comment that a surgeon, lieutenant graham evans, wrote to his wife in a letter. i've seen all the surgery i want for a while, he wrote her. they come in with wounds that make you sick to look at and they tell them -- and you tell them they must be evacuated and they cry. think about that. it's for that kind of reason that admiral nimitz said about

the brooif ri that he was seeing at iwo jima, among americans who serve on iwo jima, uncommon valor was a common virtue. and that very much -- this is going to be replicated in okinawa as well. but that very much is what resonates about the battle of iwo jima, i think. so, the long haul. d plus 4, mount suribachi is seized. increasingly the challenge for the americans is to support the marines on the shore. and you can see lsts in the background here on the beaches itself. these are lining ship tanks. workhorse both in the atlantic and the pacific theater once you get in there. the challenge now is how do you supply this montrossty that's on the land? and this is where you can see

the congestion that you got on the beaches. this is where the black marines and the army company were also performing most of their duties, crucial duties, to make sure that the supplies are moving forward and get them off the beaches as quickly as you can. all the while, occasionally japanese mortar and artillery fire would land right in the midst of them as they're doing this work. february 21st, kamikaze attacks start, persistent attacks on some of the ships offshore. and where can they go? they're not going to go anywhere. the japanese know exactly where they're at. on february 27th, airfield number two is seized. so, you're moving north by this time. and airfield number 3 by march 3rd. and again, d-day was february 19th. i'll give you some sense of it. and, again, general schmidt said, this is going to last for ten days. we've still got a long way to

go. march 4th, the first b-29 lands on airfield number 1. and there it is. the dynamite, dinah. it had to land there in emergency. they were able to fix the fuel gauge, fill it with more fuel and get it off to tinian island, the first of hundreds that are going to land there, saving thousands of lives in the process. and again, that was one of the main reasons that they thought iwo jima was worth the fight. japanese counterattack. on march 8, the japanese pose a significant night attack. 1,500 japanese soldiers, a mixture of troops and naval personnel.

and who's in charge of this? because remember kuribayashi said there's not going to be any banzai charges, and that's exactly what they're going to be doing. it's general senda and this captain remember him who was gog to behead the young lieutenant because he left sir bocce. these were the two young men who thought they were going to do a bonsai attack with 1500 japanese. and their objective was to get all the way back to mount sarah bocce. raise the japanese flag on top of the mountain as a symbolic gesture as well. exactly opposite of what her but she wanted. why did they do it? because they believed in the samurai code. put yourself in the role of a average japanese soldier. what way would you prefer to die? now i don't know if this is a factor, but in my mind, okay

i'm going to the bonsai charge rather than pull up in a bunker someplace waiting for somebody to burn me out with a flame thrower. that's just me personally. they attacked at 2400 hours with small arms, grenades, bamboo spears. they were quickly eliminated by flares and artillery at borders. it wasn't too much of a surprise for the americans. cut them down and mass as much as the americans could in the bonsai attack. by the time it was over, 800 japanese had died in that attack. but not until there was a hand hand combat. again, touch and go experiences. i'm sure for the americans was a terrifying experience for them. so now we are starting to make progress as we move farther north, farther north. so a series of dates here. by march 9th, the third division patrols the east

coast. close to the tunnel point. here is where -- is. right in this area here, and the headquarters. the deep in the bunker. by march 11th, the last escort carries department. they're moving on to other targets. okinawa and some of the other targets. close air support is now a responsibility for the army. who can land on the air strips that they now control? on the 14th, marine units begin to load for departure. and the war department, tired of explaining to all of those worried parents back at home, of the bloodletting that is going on with hiroshima. they declare that the island is largely secured. march 16th, the last japanese resistance at cushman's pocket is crushed. that is where we think that bernie she dies. his body is never found.

remember, bernie she is the dashing cavalry officer who has his own horse. general send a held out near a gushy, but his body is never failed. don't know what happened to him. and only the northwest corner of the island is still in japanese hands. march 20th then, the fifth division destroys the last japanese pocket of resistance. and the u.s. army arrives for garrison. the general and his staff are in death valley in the area that i just pointed out on the screen. the evening of march 23rd, the general sense out one last message to the japanese homeland in he simply says this. goodbye. that was the only message. the night of march 25th and 26th, the survivors, 200 or 300 of them launch eight desperate

predawn attack. they slip through the fifth marines. the attack with knives, grenades, pistols, often finding at the gi and their sleeping bags -- so that ends up being bloody as well. but the nearby marines including some african american troops come to the rescue, and blunt that particular attack. alone there's 53 dead, and 103 wounded. the japanese lose 262. and on rare occasion, 18 japanese are captured. march 26, at zero 800 the battle at he won't jima is declared suspended. his body is also never found. it is thought that he committed suicide or he died in a attack somehow. and he directed his soldiers to

bury him deep so that he would never be found again. the battle lasted not ten days as was initially predicted by 36. from february 19th through march 26. so that just leaves this. as the marines died at you will jima, there was nothing you could possibly do but bury them there. 6821 dead. and of course, a lot of the nature of the wounds, they kept dying so that was the eventual death toll. 90,217 wounded. so a total of over 26,000 casualties in this one battle. against 21,000 losses for the japanese. that's the highest percentage total of american casualties by japanese anywhere in the war. it's based on the ferocity of the battle.

now those who have been to erode jima can probably verify this. those grapes are no longer there. you are jima is japanese land. it was the first japanese territory that the island forces reached during world war ii. it's american policy that we will not allow american soldiers, marines, navy personnel, air forced to be buried on enemy land. i believe most of those would have been brought back to hawaii. but it's kind of a all inspiring sight, look at all those grieves are perfectly aligned. 216 p.o.w.. so this is a curiosity. 3000 japanese hiding. a lot of those would have been people that were never found because they were burned up, they were destroyed, they committed suicide deep in these caves. but that number of 216 p.o.w.'s

continued to grow over the next few months, as some of the japanese would come out of their holes and surrender. even i believe after the war officially ended in august. so what is the next step? the navy meets again and september 24th, so this is several months after eulogy might self. they are trying to sort out what do we do after we get you will jima? where do we go after that? you have the same kind of discussion. admiral king still favors formosa. most of the other grass, nist is much more of a factor in this, says from iwo jima we go to okinawa. that is the next logical place to go. and okinawa is much closer than --

it's a smaller area, it is a easier lift logistically, and that is the decision that is made. and the code name for okinawa that is iceberg. and initiate just a month or so after the fight in iwo jima ends. okay i end with this. the most famous picture of all of world war ii. flag raising at emoji. ma the three gentlemen that were a part of the seventh bond drive across the united states. and the story about the bond drive and those gentlemen, and the debate about who was actually part of that six man crew that raised the flag at iwo jima is a minister that has only recently been resolved. i have got the next presentation here. okinawa on september 23rd. i hope you check that one out as well.

here are the three that went around the united states. young man, bradley, iran hayes. some of you are country western fans, remember the song that john cash wrote about iran hayes. a native american. here were the names of the people initially at the time of the fund-raising drive that they thought were actually in that picture. -- and hansen. they all died in the battle. and bradley was wounded. so that tells you something right there. of the six in this picture that happened on the end of evil jima, three were, dead one was wounded. here is the curiosity.

now in 2019, those are name that we attach. he's no longer in the picture at all. he's no longer the picture at all. john bradley. it's his son, james bradley that wrote flags of our father. when he rode it he thought that his dad was part of the flag raising, although his dad was always very invasive about. it didn't want to talk about it at all. would get calls, always around memorial day especially, you get calls from a journalist or somebody who wanted to interview him for a nice piece in the newspaper and the family was instructed, tell them that my father is at his cottage fishing. that is what they would always say. and james bradley finally did reach the conclusion himself that his father wasn't actually part of the flag raising. he was there but not part of

the six. there were not just these pictures. there was actually motion picture from as well. and if you look here, this is really tough to see. harold killer here, all you can really see is the hand. in this picture, they have other ones. a couple of these things. i think they determined it wasn't bradley in the picture because, i think he wasn't wearing a ring, the individual and the picture was wearing a ring. that's the level of detail. the marine corps did official studies trying to figure this out. iran he's insisted all along that this was not, let's see if i can go back a slide here. that wasn't henry hansen. he insisted all along that that was herald. i believe it's he ruled blocks mother who looked at the picture initially and was

insistent, that's my son. i know my son. i changed his diapers a little boy. i watched him grow up. i know that's him. for her it wasn't funny at all. it was a incredibly emotional thing, but she identified with that. to know that your son was in the most important picture of world war ii, that is some comfort i guess. anything else? thank you all. >> ladies and gentlemen, again if you noticed, a few heads here and there in some of the camera shots. we had a small audience with some family and friends of the doctor giving him encouragement tonight. so for those of us in the room, let's give mark a big round of applause. >> international holocaust remembrance day is jenner 27 the data 1945 a soviet army liberated auschwitz-birkenau.

the largest world war ii nazi death camp. tonight to mark the anniversary we will air a night of programs about the holocaust beginning with benjamin france who at the age of 27 served as the chief u.s. prosecutor at one of the nuremburg trials. he renounces early life in new york city, his service in the u.s. army and his memories of nuremburg. watch tonight beginning at eight eastern. american history tv every weekend on c-span 3. but in cabinet nominees are on capitol hill this week for

their hearings. thursday 10 am on c-span one hearing for two nominees. ohio congresswoman marcia fudge for urban development and cecilia rouse, nominated for chair, council of economic advisers. watch the confirmation hearings live on c-span. on demand on c-span dot or listen on the c-span radio app.

during the december 7th 1941 japanese attack on pearl harbor u.s. navy attendant, dory, miller helped wounded aboard the uss virginia and fired anti aircraft guns at the tractors even though he had been trained on the weapons. as a result, this grandson of slaves became the first african american awarded a navy cross. next on american history tv, -- talk about his story and explore how the memory of his heroics have evolved over the years. the national world war ii museum in new orleans hosted this event and provided the vi