in an event hosted by the history makers, jeanette, and prairie view, president ruth symonds discussed the history of african americans in education. and the importance of historically black colleges and universities. the history makers provided the video for this program. i'm suzanne. cnn's national correspondent and with us today is our distinguished guest, the president -- and former president of stratum

college and bennett. college the only to dedicate to educating african american woman. and dr. ruth symonds, president of -- university, and hbcu. it is a pleasure to have both of you here with us. you've made such a significant contribution to the field of education. i would like to start the program off. we have invited mvp franklin, distinguished professor of education at the university of california riverside to give a short presentation on the history of blacks and education. >> really happy to be a part of the 20th anniversary of the history makers. i just want to say thank you to julianna richardson for the wonderful work that she's done over the last two decades, i'm happy to have been a part of it at the beginning and here again

to discuss the background, the historical background for higher education among african americans. african americans have placed great faith in education in general. because of their oppressed condition in american society. for african americans, education was important for maintaining their freedom. as the sleeve -- learning to read and write was illegal. those who paid literacy or assisted and literacy training could be severely punished. however many and slave children learn to read and write, when white children were being taught to school those skills. and adults learned when they went to literary services cause they were interested in learning the bible.

makeshift classrooms were set up to teach literacy, during and following the war and there was a whole race of people trying to learn to read and write. >> but black and white clerks were sent in. one early objective of black voters, this establishment of the public school systems throughout the southern states. when northern missionaries, began to leave, to leave the south, various religious nominations, made arrangements to open normal schools where african americans would be trained as creatures for these newly establish schools.

the american missionary so cnn, founded in 1846, supported primarily by the congregation ill church, opened its first school in hampton virginia in 1861. eventually they opened scores of freedom schools, and settle over 500 teachers. two thirds of them women. to work in the south. the opening of the public schools, they focused on secondary schools, on normal schools that eventually many of them became historically black colleges and universities. in mississippi, hampton institute, virginia kentucky, atlanta can university in georgia, and many others. the am-y church, took over a college in ohio from the methodists at school in 1863,

and it soon served a dual purpose of training teachers and educating ministers for the african methodist church. other nominations nominations opened normal schools, and seminaries following the war. anne's the howard school was open in 1866, and all over otis howard founded the normal and preparatory department in 1867. and howard university, theological department was funded by the american missionary association beginning in 1870. currently the second largest number largely historically black colleges, and university trace their origins back to

1872. the second morell act, called on states with dual systems of education, one for white and one for blacks, to open or designate one educational institution for white, and one institution for blacks, as the black college. eventually the land grant colleges for whites, became agriculture and engineering schools, texas a&m, alabama a&m, and state university university of arkansas, purdue university. the land grant colleges for african americans in the south however, were victimized by the separate and on equal funding practices in the southern states, and only became teacher training institutions, to provide elementary and secondary school teachers, for

the separate back black public schools in those states. such as kentucky state, seven university of louisiana, alabama, mississippi, north carolina and others. now small number of african americans the numbers of them that began in the antebellum period, most college educated african americans, before 1960, received their undergraduate training and degrees from historically black colleges. professional training in law, and medicine and education, and in other fields, was limited for african americans in the south. for example you really only had howard university of law school, medical school, and they tended to educate the largest numbers. most southern black students, had to leave the region for professional an advanced graduate training. sometimes paid for by the

southern state governments. in the years leading up to 1954, brown versus the board of education decision, small numbers of african americans began to enroll in historically white colleges and universities. and after 1970, the majority of african americans receiving higher education or enrolled at the predominantly white institutions. nevertheless, up until very recently, the largest number of african americans receiving graduate and undergraduate degrees, received them from historically black colleges and universities. as graduates of administrators at historically black colleges and predominantly white colleges, the history makers dr. ruth symonds, and dr. john meta coal, their experience provide unique insights in the history of african american higher education in the 20th and early 24 centuries.

>> thank you vip for your historical insights, really appreciate it very helpful to open discussion. i want to turn our attention to the panelists, and first of all i want to thank you for joining us it is such an honor to be with you both. i come from a family of educators, my mother was a former educator, and my father a dean at howard university medical school. and i can appreciate the value of education instilled in me in early on, and they both insisted basically can do anything you put your mind to, and don't bring anything home less than a b. so i got that i got those lessons early. so with that i'd like to get started, here and this is stork moment, so what are your thoughts seeing a graduate, of an hbcu, assume the vice presidency of the united states. i know people it howard are just cheering. so doctor simmons? >> well, i've said before,

first of all suzanne and john meta, it's a pleasure to be with you to be able to have this conversation thank you very much for inviting me and of course i like to say that for any firsts, they're a bit of an apparition. because it should be normal, for someone like kamala harness, to step into this role, or any other role for that matter. and so the fact that we have to celebrate first, it's just one more indication of how slowly our advancement is or continues to be. we should be you know we should expect our children, should expect that they can ascend to these kind of positions. they shouldn't be any question about that, but what do we celebrate so furiously, that we have made it to that point, it

only reinforces the fact that we're still held back by the structures that were created by the unequal situation that we live with. >> okay doctor cool? >> well i'm going to echo words from my dearest sister friend, the sister friend president roof simmons, in saying it's a joy to be here. and thank you suzanne, for facilitating what i know is going to be a really good conversation, and of course i must say happy anniversary so it's the 20th anniversary. of the history makers, and so sister founders, sister executive director the julieanna richardson. what thank you, thank you for all of this extraordinary work

that you and your colleagues continue to do. the well, when it happened, when finally a woman, a black woman, a woman of south asian descent was on the ticket, and indeed will be the vice president of a majority party, and of our country. i jumped for joy. and yet like ruth symonds i did have to stop and say, why did it takes a long? on the other hand, i strongly i

appreciate i feel fulfilled, in a sense, because i am a black woman. that in my lifetime, and it's been a long one, i finally saw the presidency of my country in the hands of an african american man. and now to see the vice presidency of my country, in the hands of a black woman. you know what i've been thinking, i've been thinking of a phrase, that we used to use when we are kids, to kids in some dispute about something. and the one child who finally made the definitive point,

upward say i told you sell the. i told you so. [laughs] . well for 400 years, we have been saying the very notion, that some people because they have white skin, are superior to people because they have black skin? and we told you so, about hp see use. but these institutions from their very beginning, the have been graduating stellar leaders citizens, servants of the people. so yeah, we told you so.

>> and i know this message is the i told you selves, where they come from our childhoods, and our parents and our relatives and our big communities and families that we are raised and way that we value education. and i'd like for each of you to discuss your very unique childhoods, you're both from very different backgrounds, and doctor simmons i'd like to start with you, because you are so eloquent when you talk about when your own mother taught lessons about people, and never feeling inferior. always feeling that you could do anything you put your mind to. give us a little sense of your background, where you grew up and where you fit in in the sibling chain. and how this began for you >> oh my, well of course i was born the last child. the last child of my parents. 11 children had arrived before

me. so in that sense, in terms of birth order, i was the least significant person in the family, for a long time. because i was the youngest. my parents were sharecroppers at the time that i was born in texas. and it was a hard scrabble life. let's face it, sharecroppers had what is called an extension of slavery. it was a pretty lean life. but i was quite blessed to have wonderful parents, parents who had an eighth grade education. but who protected us, at a very dangerous time. they protected us by telling us how to live in a sometimes violent world in which for no reason other than the fact that you are black could result in harm and look

so we have very strict guidelines as to how to protect ourselves. and they often say, the great thing they did for us, 12 children, is that we all live to adulthood. and that says a lot. that was quite an accomplishment for them. but in our family the most important thing was to survive. it was to learn how to be in a roiled that was hostile. but even in that context, my mother taught us to never feel superior to other people. to be kind. to be concerned about others. but also, never to think of ourselves as less than another human being. some very grateful to her for that. but there was no innocents

aspiration within my family to get an education because that was such a farfetched notion really at the time. occasionally we were able to get to school. frankly bringing in -- was far more important to our survival than going to school. but imagine when i did get to school eventually and find in the school room eight incredibly engaged teacher who started to give me a sense of the possibilities for learning. and i always attribute that, my interest in learning, to my first grade teacher, who imbued in me the notion that my mind could be expanded in a myriad of ways. and furthermore for the first time of my life somebody told me i was smart. and that was very exciting to me. so that is where my journey

started in education. at the hands of a teacher who knew how to encourage meat. who knew how to open up the world of learning to me it, and he had to say to meet no matter what is happening out there you matter. you are smart. you're going to go someplace. so education often for our children across time has been as much about that encouragement as anything else. helping our young people to understand their capacity in a world where they are constantly given science that they don't matter, that they're not, smart but they can't cope. >> i'm sorry. doctor i know as well that when you graduated from the top of your class and you in a sense took this notion, i mean this hope and this upbringing that you had of not being unworthy but exploring outside of the

united states where can i go? where can i explore to see a different model perhaps of how blacks are treated. can you talk about that for a little bit? i had this idea. the first time i left home was to go to university in new orleans. i had this idea that i knew that something was wrong with our country. the way that people were treated had to be a aberration somehow. and so the first opportunity that i had to go outside of the country, to look back at my own country and assess what it was going on was opportunity to go to mexico to study spanish. and at the end of my freshman year i took a bus to the horror of my black family, i got on a bus my self from texas and rode into mexico. i lived with a mexican family and i studied spanish.

that was the beginning of a lifetime journey for me to learn more about the world and to be able to judge fairly what's happening in my own country on the basis of what i see elsewhere. >> i would like to go to doctor coal. your experience. it's really extraordinary when you read about, it here about, it you speak so eloquently about your great grandfather and the influence that he had when you grew up in jacksonville, florida. paint a picture of would he was like and what he demanded of you. >> i grew up in those horrific days of legal racial discrimination. my life was ordered once i walked outside of my home by signs and buy notions that somehow, no matter what i did i

would never be equal to those who could drink from the white water fountain. go to parks. go to museums. i grew up in the segregated south. i even remember a sign in a park that said no jews no -- , no dogs allowed. but inside of my home, and in the safety and the warmth of my community i was told but i could do whatever i set my mind

to do. but i had to have a good education. and secondly, i had to work against the horrific system of subjugation. i grew up obviously black. i grew up a girl. but i didn't grow up poor. i grew up the great grand daughter of abraham lincoln lewis. like many african american men born in and around 1865, he was named after the so-called great emancipation. he never use that name though. he wanted to be referred to as eight out lewis.

lewis had a tough life. he was born in 1865. he was born of parent who had been enslaved. but he had a drive that was amazing. and with only a sixth grade education, he went on to found with six other black men insurance company. this was 1901. it wasn't the first black insurance company. it was the first insurance company in the state of florida. lewis became florida's first black millionaire. so, by the, way my that and my mom were constantly reminding

us, myself, my older sister, that's your great grandfather, we are not rich. but would it meant to be the great granddaughter of lewis was that you know what? class never trumped race. it didn't matter. sure there were certain accommodations. but it ultimately didn't matter. and race is still unable to trump in our country. >> and with that doctor -- >> forgive me. i just wanted to tell this one little bit. lewis was a very religious person. and so after church, it seemed

to last all the long. the church seem to last forever. at the end, my sister and i got to go to luis is home. and every sunday, we did that as little ones. and every sunday he would remind us, we can only played two games. regular school or sunday school. and we would play. my sister and i. my brother is much younger than i. at a certain point he would come by and he would say are you ready for the test? and we would say yes. that's what we called him. and he would say whatever the

three these that are important in your life? and we would recite the bible, the schoolbook, and the bank book. >> the notion of education for a man that only had eight sixth grade education was that it was the ticket for an individual and people to a better life. and louis, i know i said only this little bit, you have to have a little bit more. >> lewis had a close friend. her name was doctor mary mcleod mid thin. through my great grandfather, i

actually met, would often get to go to daytona beach with my mom and my sister. and if she was on campus, my sister and i would go into the office of the legendary doctor mary mcleod but then. >> lewis and dr. mary mcleod within, they are going to come galen and hot mean. >> that's exactly what i was wondering. but was the impact that you had even at the dinner table with your great grandfather but then? and even in your young adulthood with dorothy height. you had people who were mentors

and heroes, who were at your dinner table at some point. you had first access at some point. how did that impact who you became as a educator? >> very strong influences. let me also say that my parents were a typical. and this will be a big plug for each bc. my parents each graduated from college. my mother went to morris brown as a high school student. she then went to well before so college. now will be forced university. my father went to knoxville college in knoxville, tennessee. so again, i would have to be ashamed of myself. i would have to divorce myself. if i had not taken all of that

influence and done something with it. >> and the influence that russia from fest. you graduated at 15 years old. brought to death-esque and then to overland. talk about that transition. >> i had these pushy, pushy black families, who believed in education like it said that the devil believes in sun. you know, that's a lot of belief. so one day i was in the 11th grade. and they said to me, you will go downtown tomorrow, you will take a test, if you pass, you will go to this university. i didn't want to go to the university. i wanted to be with my friends. i want to go to my senior year in high school. but like a good, obedient black

girl i went downtown and took the test, and stupidly, rather than feeling the test which i could have done, i went and -- rudy would have been the same thing so don't laugh at me. i checked all the right boxes and off i went to the university at age 18 in the early entrance program. >> and you transferred to overland. can you tell us why? it's a sad story. suzanne. the why is that i was my daddies baby girl. and when my dad passed i was traumatized. and even though this was like being dropped down into a

artistic heaven, i was traumatized. so my mom and sister tricked me into going to overland on exchange program. my sister was a double major invoicing piano at the conservatory. i need to mean your family. and well there, i discovered this thing this field, this discipline called anthropology which i couldn't even pronounce hardly, and i stayed it overland in large measure, because i had discovered a discipline. very much as roof had discovered languages, and culture as a way of

understanding the world and yourself. >> and you would take that to earn multiple degrees as well, advanced degrees a ph.d. as well as a masters, and doctor simmons you attended the hbcu of diluted oversee new orleans, then you went to harvard university for graduate school. you received your ph.d. in the romance languages in 1973. so talk about your path, and what led you from hbcu, to the than romance languages at an ivy league. >> well i think after my experience in mexico, i went back to deal lured, determined to continue learning about other cultures. that seemed so much the key for me again my first year of

college in all the present of yet states in iowa's sasse needed, it was not a very happy time in the country. the civil rights movement was burgeoning and there were a lot of issues going on and i was trying to find a way to my country. so to me, the path to figure out where i belonged, and how to deal with the people who hated me, was to understand how other countries functioned around the issue of difference. and so i decided to stick with languages, and i finished law dillard and received a full bright fellowship, and went to france to live for a year. >> it's an interesting experience to learn that the pervasive issue of race, causes

boundaries. that was fundamentally something that i eventually learned, because i ended up staying with an elderly lady, but i discovered that there was space for me in what they call the universe he city. and i had a chance to move on campus, and i want to get that experience. so i told her that i would be leaving to go live on campus, and that's when all of this racial hatred came up. a french woman but i had that, experience in france, at a turbulent time in france during a great student revolution of that time, was very instructive for me. essentially everybody was in the streets, everybody was protesting, and i got swept up in that as well. and so the impulse of students,

and of laborers in france to overturn a system, and elitist system in france, was very inspiring to me. then i came back from my experience in france, and then went on to graduate school at harvard, determined to continue with my studies in language. it wasn't interesting and in some ways a cold experience for me. to be perfectly honest with you. harvard was not a place at that juncture that was ready for african american students. so there were protests there at that juncture. but it has always seem to me, in the midst of my education, that the batch of being from hbcu, tended to color peoples understanding of what you might be capable of. so i've always been very aware

of that. and so i remember one of my first class is when i got to harvard, it was a class in renaissance in literature and as a did most days, they gave something called a text where you actually sit in class and you write an essay in french. and the professor was doing that as a way of understanding, what kind of skills we have, because we came from all over the country to this class. slow we completed our work, and in the next meeting he came in and he said that are explications were absolutely terrible, that we need to do a lot of work to get up to speed to do this french exercise. he says however there was one essay that was perfect, any reddit and it turned out to be mine. and the discipline or the

disappointment on his face, when he handed back my essay, and acknowledge that it was i who had written it, it was very clear to me and in fact for the rest of that semester, he barely looked at me, he barely spoke to me, he was so disappointed at the idea that i could excel at that level. so that was somewhat experience at harvard, going through and trying to complete my graduate education, but understanding that i was marked. i was marked as an african american. i was marked as the graduate of an hbcu, and none of my professors thought i would go anywhere. in fact they admitted that to me later on, that they thought that this was kind of a law an exercise, my going to get a ph.d. in romance languages and literature of all things because, blacks didn't belong in the field.

they did long in that field. >> do you think that that has changed? we've seen kind of an evolution if you will of the leadership of president elect and both of you, at the helm of hbcus, and that is becoming more common, as it is in predominantly white institutions. so do you think that that notion, of what the degree means from an hbcu, has evolved as we look at the history of education among african americans? >> not nearly as much as it should have evolved to be perfectly candid with you. because, working with institutions today, this emerges constantly. and of course i can call it out, because the experience of leading a major white institution and contrasting that with the way that students are treated, or you know it strikes me on a daily basis.

and i have to pointed out constantly to people, that this is not what would happen, this is not the way another institution should be seen. so i'd love to say that we are beyond that, but i don't honestly think that we are. and i was having conversation the other day with the chairman of the board of a very elite institution, who was trying to understand the current context, were there things that that institution should be doing with regard to african americans? and i have to point out, we'll hbcus, offer a prime opportunity for your institution to partner on research, and on internships, and any number of different areas. and yet you failed to do that. so it's not what it should be by long shot. >> doctor coat you are

instrumental, and really establishing at the forefront of establishing some of the nation's first blacks studies program both. washington state university, and there are some institutions now that they have these programs where if you check the box, but it gives a sense of what did that accomplish and what were some of the challenges there? because i know there is a frustration, that you have talked about about really even hbcus embracing that ability, for black students to learn about their own history. >> well of course, the 1960s was that period when, in a sense the black power movement, that was going on in our country that got in cahoots, with black students and black faculty. it was a time when, whatever

barriers had been erected between community and campus, were challenged. and i did have the experience of being a part of the founding of one of the first black study programs. this was at washington state university. ruth has said, and i just have to say what you said, that it really did take a long time for us as black scholars to insist on the relevancy of our own experiences. and so, to do so in the 1960s as scholars, was really a revolutionary moment. it became a revolutionary

moment to say our revolutionary movement i should say, to say that the cannon had to be questioned. now of course, it's true that across time, that had always been black scholars who had lifted up the black experience and i know we would all think of w.-y be dubois's. we would think of anna julia cooper. who insisted that when the black woman enters, the whole race comes with her. but the notion, that black folks were inferior there, which was of course what was the explanation an excuse for enslavement. and for long years of system of systemic racism, that had not been systematically challenged

in the academy. and black studies as a movement did that. i also remember the day when i had to ask if this is black studies, where are the black women and obviously that led? me into that disciplinary field of women studies. only to one day asked myself if this is women studies, where are all the women of color? and so we it is a journey that we are still on, a journey where scholarship must challenge any notion of the absence of full humanity on the part of any group of

individuals. the black studies now has more shall i use the word stability, then it had in the 1960s. yes. but is it firmly rooted, centered in the academy? my answer would be not enough. >> and to you both of you. >> but first of all it's not rooted in historically black colleges, and one of the. why >> do you suppose that is true? sorry excuse me? why >> do you suppose that's true doctor simmons today? >> i think that it is historical, there is no question that the long journey of enslavement of and segregation, traumatized

african americans. and there's no question, that we were left with a sense that the grass is greener on the other side okay there? it's not like it's not unlike what used to happen in this country with everything european. american studies, came quite late because the privileged european everything, over what was native to the united states. and so, the maturing out of that, maturing out of that colonization, and you have to come to a point where you really do fully endorse the fact that you matter as much as everybody else. but our hbcus, sometimes did not understand how important was for us to be the first to

teach jazz, or for us to be the first to teach our writers or for us to be the first to teach african american history and courses on our race. and so, one of the things that i have done to some people's dismay is to argue that this is the first and most urgent thing that we must integrate is that we must teach african american studies. i think that will eventually make its way around. and when you don't teach african american studies and a hbcu, you are fundamentally saying that it is not our culture, our history, are not as important as the other cultures and histories that we teach on our campuses. and this is never going to be acceptable. >> suzanne if i may, i'm thinking back to some very special days in my life. two years when ruth symone

actually came to the college, and served as the provost. and i'm thinking of the struggle at spellman to turn the study of the great books into a different academic and personal experience for our students and we call for something called's. africa and a.d.w.. africa, the diaspora, and the world. it would replace what doctor beverley called the for what

w's in higher education. it's all about what's the western, all about what was woman-less, and the third w, all about what was white. and that struggle in a hbcu to replace the great books of the european experience with africa, the diaspora, and the world, that was a real struggle, and so many of our hbcu hbcu eyes's today, the study of our own experience is not there. >> can we speak specifically to black women and educational black women? doctor cool, you mentioned lucy ed stanton in 1850 received with a call a certificate of

literature from oberlin college. not a bachelor's degree but the first black woman to graduate from a american college with a certificate of literature because the female students were confined to what was called at the time a ladies course, designed to be less challenging that eight emails bachelor programs. then we had the process of coeducation take form. i want for you specifically to both address bennett college, or spelman college what do they provide? ivan smith college. what do they provide uniquely to black females, what's the need in their educational experience to be successful? >> i think i'm going to respond, suzanne, with a experience i had when i was at spelman.

i would hold office hours. and it made the president's office look like a sit-in because you couldn't have an appointment. you just waited your turn. but i will never forget when one spelman student who had waited a long time, she was almost at the end of the day, walked into my office, and i said to my spelman sister i want to ask you something. i looked at a record and it really incredibly impressive. i mean with your grades and your community service you could have gone to any institution in america. what made you choose spelman? she looked at me and she said, dr. cohen, i'm going to be an astrophysicist. and i did not want to have any

professor looking at me and saying, or implying, honey, are you sure you can do physics? that's what happens at a women's college. nobody looks -- well if that person does, they need to leave. you don't stay in any way, by words or by implication, you do not do what you have set up to do. . there's this expression. i sought -- thought about it a lot when senator kamala harris came into the spotlight of our country.

on a woman's campus, you see the truth in this expression, day if you can see one you can be one. when ruth symonds was the president of smith college, think about the number of young women, and especially young black women who said, if i can see that in ruth symonds, i can see that in myself. >> doctor? simmons >> well i can't say it any better than that. >> it is for women in general. seeing other women performing at the highest level was the greatest source of inspiration

in terms of having the wherewithal to stick to your dreams, frankly. and i must say that when we arrived at the college, i was very much aware that the united states had a problem in terms of women in engineering, and i understood so much why women dropped out of engineering, and why it was still not a hospitable field for women. so i called for the creation of a engineering department. that seemed very important to me because at a women's college, any field is possible because women need to see that any

field as possible. so although smith was a liberal arts college and faculty questioned whether it was appropriate at the liberal arts college to have something like engineering, we pushed through, and got it started. and i will tell you that today, when i visit smith, the woman engineering was approached me and thank me for creating engineering for them. because often they have felt discouraged before coming to smith about the potential of being able to do engineering at a very high level. and that possibility exists for them in a woman's coach setting. it really makes all the difference in the world. my first recognition of what women might be able to do really came when i was visiting a student. i'm the youngest and my family.

and my family was a very patriarchal one. my father was very dominant. i have seven brothers, and none of them thought that the girl from the family was important. and that was the message all the time to us. when i got to wellesley and i saw margaret, who was president of wellesley, i was just stunned that a woman could be a president of a college. stunned. and so seeing examples in, obviously, makes a enormous difference for young people. i also had experience -- i think johnetta was saying that people thought of me as a very private person. i didn't talk much about myself, and i think most people along my career path thought that i came from a educated family, middle class background, i didn't talk about, it and so

people didn't know my circumstances. but when i was appointed resident of smith, i think it was a new york times story that told about my background. and suddenly, these letters started to come around the country from girls, saying my goodness, if you can do what you are doing, maybe i might be able to do it. so that was a watershed moment for me. how important it is for all of us as women to tell our stories because of what it does for the girls who come after us. so at that point i decided i needed to tell my story. and i'm so relieved that i finally did that. but it took me a long time to recognize important that is. >> and dr., simmons to that point, in your leadership at the scene adversities, you have

really been at the forefront of breaking ground. one of the examples was at brown university when you confronted those from the past and present, who were financially supporting the university. the role in the triangular slave trade. i want you to speak to that. that's something that other institutions will have to grapple with. predominantly white institutions. what did you call for? were you successful in addressing the very important issue as a bridge from a historical perspective to now present day when people are asking you demanding reparations. >> first of all, my greatest teacher, my mother always said to tell the truth. and when the issue came up of what the ties of brown university could have been to

the transatlantic slave trade my first thought was we should pursue this, and find out with the truth of it was. i didn't realize that so many people would be unhappy with the truth. in fact, the date that we announced that we were pursuing this issue, a good friend of mine, a scholar called and said girl, have you lost your mind? i laughed at the time at her comment, but she was pressured because she knew that all hell would break loose. not so much because we are pursuing this issue. because i was a black woman pursuing this issue. i didn't know that we had a particularly restricted area in which we could work. i didn't know that as president

of a ivy league university that i was supposed to stay away from certain things, and so i plunged into thinking you know, let's find out the truth is. let's disclose that to our alumni, our students, our public. so it was pretty hairy at the very beginning because of the hostility towards me, and to the idea that i was doing this, and it was pretty strong actually. that was a time when -- sent a officer to guard my house. there were some crazy things happening. whatever we say about this special roles, it is true that we are african american, that we are women, that we are african american women. but at the same time, we are

expected to carry out our responsibilities as ably as any other person would. so harry summers at harvard, i would not have worried about whether or not i should [inaudible] . as ruth summons at brown i wasn't prepared to ask permission from anyone to do it was necessary. so we took longer because our reaction was so strong. so we meticulously an earth the facts about what had transpired when our university was founded, and what transpired was that as the center of ship making providence was home to the slave trading -- , and most wealthy people in providence at the time were

somehow entangled with the slave trade. at the same time, they had sent a minister from philadelphia to come up to the college. and so they were supporting the fanning of the college, with their resources, but they had all profited from slavery. that story had to be told. it was awkward for some people that i was the one to tell it. because i was black, surely i had a purpose that was somehow compromised, and so on. but we did a excellent study. it has become a model for lots of universities and institutions. and oddly enough, the most difficult thing that i did at breyault has become the thing that i'm best known for.

that is a study that went around the world, and set the terms for how we should investigate our histories it. and how we should respond. >> after kawhi would like you to share with us because there have been many periods in our history when -- each bc was in danger of closing down or losing their incredible -- accreditation, there are people who are fighting to the state to ensure the harvard university is supported on a federal level. give us recommendation as to how hbcu's survive, prosper, and how do the collections, their archives become living documents that go into the future for us to benefit from? >> first of all, suzanne, i

want to thank you for acknowledging that this is a struggle, and it's a long struggle for our historically black colleges and universities. i'm thinking about one of my heroes. mary mcleod thune, the founder of the college. now bassoon university. cofounder of united -- college fund. and of course, the founder 85 years ago of the national council of women. there was a day when dr. but soon had to tell all of her students to go into the, they were cold dormitories then and turn out the lights because she had been told that the plan would launch on her campus that

night. and the students obeyed. she had instructed that when she gave the signal the lights would go on because she would be ringing the bell. that is what happened. and that night the clan rode on but there is a long history of racial -- against folk who wanted to learn. today, while we have hbcu's that are making the list of america's best colleges and universities, we also have historically black colleges and universities. they continue to struggle.

and if there is anything that i think that we as african american people, and as american people must do, it's to take care of a process called education. i mean, president nelson mandela told us it's the single most effective way to change the world. >> how do we do that specifically? >> give us some recommendations if you can't to support those institutions. >> to. one, greater resources which need to come from ourselves,

especially our alumni,'s we have got to take care of our institutions. but resources must come from a sign of our institutions. second, i would say constant reinvention. because we have taught in a given way back in the day, that is no reason that we can't teach the fundamental notions, but in a way that is relevant to today. so resources and constant reinvention would be the two things that i would call for four solidifying our hbcu's

because certainly we said this when i was in the -- , if historically black colleges and universities didn't exist, we would have to invent them. because look at what they do in terms of creating a pathway for african americans. and therefore a pathway towards a better america. >> how do we preserve the archival -- that promote such a rich history in our community? >> first of all, we need to give our thanks to the history makers and the work that they do to preserve the history and her story african americans. and you know, i wait for

another one to pop up on my laptop. the history maker is telling me about the history of the picnic. or at the history of hbcus. it's a incredible institution. but what do we do about those most priceless things called papers? the papers of our scholars. where will they go? >> we have not done a very good job in the community of preserving the material expressions of our struggles and our triumphs. i can't say i am intensely proud to have been a part of

the establishment of the archives at spellman college that now will receive on a continuing basis the papers of outstanding african american women. but there are so many collections that are literally going to cease to exist if we can't find a way. by that i mean, find the material resources to preserve our own history and her story. >> what can we do? you mention buffoon and that clam coming and the preparation for those students. there is a long history that links hbcu's to social justice movements. now we see the color change and

black lives matter. there are so many challenges for our students. to both of you, what can we do to prepare our young people in terms of citizenship to be engaged? to vote? to understand how to be impactful in this very difficult time of transition. >> sometimes hbcu's have had a very easy relationship with actors. we have been through a period with hbcu's where we silenced our students. where we really disciplined them for their activism. there is a story, where a young man felt moved to paint a mural

that was very explicit about the environment. and he was arrested and was told that he had to pay damages. so when he first arrived, he appealed to him and said president cement, i am about to go to jail for a couple of years because of the fact that i owe -- 9000 dollars, and because they want to see me prosecuted. >> you can't go around painting murals. that's what i told him right away. that is property damage. but honestly finding a way to channel his activism would have been better answer than what he did. so i wrote to the judge.

and i waved them down thousand dollars and said please do not put this young man in jail. activism is very important for our students, especially to learn how to do it. to learn how to be effective at. i'll tell you what i have recently done is create a center at a purview -- prayer view. center for race and justice. one thing i put in the center was -- i want our students to be around people like john lewis and others, who have laid everything on the line in order to advance african american -- i want them to know the mistakes that they made. i want them to know their journey. that ought to be incorporated and all of our campuses and we have to teach them how to

formulate their plans for activism in a way that does not plant them in jail. or if it does land them in jail it's for the right reasons. it's worth the risk. we also have a policy project to familiarize our students with the most trenchant issues that are likely to affect their lives. and prepare them for the fact that they're probably going to have to fight for justice for the rest of their lives. that doesn't have to be surprised to anybody but the number of african americans who graduated from college, and go into the professional, lives and that are surprised by the fact that they are treated so miserably and so unjustly. why are we not preparing them for the realities that they

might experience. so what we are trying to do is bring our students through the center in their time at prairie view. finally, we have said that every student should have to take a course on race and justice. so, stoking the activism is not a bad idea. my students often ask me, when i was at a brown, why on earth did i have for example the courage to start the study of slavery at brown? i answer to them is that as a undergraduate student i was active and vocal, and i learned from my earliest days have to tackle those issues, and how to be in people's faces, and how to insist that justice prevail. i learned to do that. i became comfortable with it,

and all the way up to my career, it never fazed me to have to do that again, and again, and again. so this comes with practice. we want our students to have that practice. we are the seat of voter suppression in our area, and our students are suing along with the help of the legal defense fund for their rights as voters. this is a very -- time in many ways in terms of voter suppression. think of how long it's been going on in this country? voter suppression. it's going on this very day in terms of trying to suppress the votes of african americans in the presidential election. so if we are not preparing our students to deal with these kinds of issues we're going to have a long road to justice. >> dr. cohen, we see another movement there are calls for confederate statues to come

down, renaming buildings, recognizing the attorneys accomplishments and investments made by -- naming the business school after her. both you and doctor simmons, you have buildings or programs as dr. simmons mentions that are in your names. tell us what is the significance or the impact of that to have that be part of a new movement? it short of history if you will >> once again we are continue on a very long journey if i may, i want to emphasize again that ruth made, our campuses have not always worked with comfort around issues of social justice. we have to learn to do that. including having courageous

conversations about what you do with statues that glorify a period in american history that was centered in enslavement. we need leaders today with like will abate player at bennett college, when the greensboro for a set down at that lunch counter and went to jail, every night she went to jail. taking homework she had collected from professors and the next morning she picked up the homework and passed it out to professors. what a statement of the importance of their social activism, their commitment to justice. but the necessity for the

commitment no less to their own education. and so, more directly to your question, it is a very complex notion that we take down stuff that is being deeply revered by sectors of the american citizen. if we don't have conversations about this, and reach some decisions, in my view, that says there can be a place for the statues that praise by their association racial terror. that prairies systemic racism, that praise in sleeve meant. the place is not the middle of

a college campus. it isn't a museum, where there needs to be very organized instruction about what the statue means. >> i would like to also address where we are today in terms of this pandemic and the impact this pandemic has had on the education of african americans. we look at that hp see partner, my senior thesis was on black students who were just visiting and left predominantly white institutions and visiting howard and transferring out of those institution because they fell in love with the college, the experience and the community. so the question really becomes, how on earth would online learning really duplicate that kind of experience that is very

unique to black students when they are at hbcus as we go into a model that looks very much an online learning model? >> there is no question that much is lost in the current environment that we have all had to switch on a dime to online learning. we know that. our students are insistently telling us about their loss, their sense of loss. not to be able to experience the socialization of the campuses. not to be able to grow intellectually in the way they expect by interacting with others who are going through the same type of experience and

doing it in a way that is fulsome. we know that a lot of our students, for example, are assessing whether or not it is worth it to be on the college campus because they are not getting the college campus experience. i don't want to minimize the importance of online learning. let me say this very clearly, for many people, online learning is an option because it can radically reduce the cost of education. and it can afford people the opportunity to continue their education where they otherwise would not be able to. if you have a single mother who is working and does not have time to go to college, online education can be a useful tool

for her. at the same time, think about what campus experiences mean for us. first of all, for somebody like me, if, you asked me whether or not i would've been able to have the journey i've had if i experience my education online, i could say resoundingly no. i remember sitting in a class with a music professor and we are listening to classical music and we were having to memorize composers and that particular piece of music and so forth, and thinking to myself, isn't this interesting?

black people have produced a lot of music. why aren't we studying that? that kind of immediate interaction with stimuli on a campus promotes ideas and a lot of the ideas i carried forward all the way to my career have been stimulated by on campus environments. i will give you another example. when i was a guest student at wellesley college, we are one day in classical philosophy talking about apartheid in south africa. everybody had an opinion about it. all the students spoke out in horror about the evils of apartheid. but there was a young woman who raised her hand and said, i am south african. and she began to begin to defend apartheid in class. i like to explain to people that over the course of my time as a student, there are many experiences in classes that i

don't recall. but i recall that because the stimulation you received in firsthand experiences, face to face, is of a different order from what you experienced simply reading a book. or simply having an auto didactic or having courses online. that's what we are giving up if we do not have these experiences. one final point i will make is that the difference it makes. i am a child of poverty. i had very limited experiences. i did not have the ability to seek what the range of people who occupy this earth are like. except for living on a campus. i once had a visit from the king and queen of greece. and i had tea with them at my

home in brown. people ask me, how did it feel to have the king and queen 40? and my response is, i was perfectly prepared for that because i went through the experience of being socialized to all of these sorts of experiences because i was on a campus. our students who come from impoverished backgrounds, narrow backgrounds, need this more than anything else. and i would hate for that to be lost. i hope we could find a way to make online available for those who need that option, but at the same time, not destroy the option that many of our students need which is the on campus experience. >> thank you, i would like to open the discussion up now to our education makers, the advisory committee, the area of open education. i'm sure they have lots of

questions. this committee includes evelyn brooks, harvard university professor, i'm leslie basketball, ceo of the national association of equal opportunity. and earl richardson, the distinguished professor and research associate. the honorable joan prince, vice chancellor at the university of milwaukee. and he story coal commentators. and a distinguished professor of history and education. we would like to open up the questions to our panelists. our first question will go to chancellor prints. >> i do have a question, a very short context. first of all, let me just say this is excellent moderation. you make us proud. thank you for that. and to the fabulous, fabulous,

extraordinarily wonderful other women i also see in front of me. i saw both of you -- i need you both to know how proud you make us and how much are heart feels when we see you, even when you do not speak we know you are there. thank you. my question is one of those probing ones that we all focus on what we all have heard, but people do not like to openly discuss. that is the relationship between pwi and hbcus. i live in milwaukee which is obviously a pwi, in speaking with colleagues for years cross the nation, i have always try

to counteract which i called it elitist attitude of some pwi that hbcus are less then four they are from a research and an academic tier. that was really the discussion for years. if we want to be honest about that. >> having said that, there are a number of things that happens that started to erode that thinking. right? hidden figures, at least they did watch the film. and understanding that these hbcus produced, in the medical field, attorneys, engineers, mathematicians, astrophysicists. and also understanding that at pwi, the diversity of difficulty is not there. so now the discussion on many pwi is, how do we partner with

hbcus and in some back corners it's not really about partnering. it's really about poaching. so my question to you, both of you, what advice would you give to someone from pwi who seek to partner with hbcus particularly around their approach and their intent? thank you. >> since i'm in the midst of this on a daily basis, let me start. i have a mantra i employ in dealing with meeting of white institutions as well as corporations. in anybody else who approach for a partnership. what do i say to them, if you

are interested in tokenism, and an unequal relationship, gossamer all. i am encouraging all of my peers at hbcus to take the same stance. but we have all so often in her histories, we have been content with the leavings. that has to come to an end. we are either good enough, valuable enough with, to be partners. or we are not. and if you do not think we are good enough then you should not be in the business. the first thing that i say to leading into stations that are white, is that we are happy to have partners in this effort. but only if you are willing to consider prairie view to be equal partner.

that means and decision-making, that means in the ways in which you formulate the path forward. one of the things we are experiencing is white institutions want to partner with black institutions in order to get a lake up in competitive funding. and so many funding agencies have said very clearly, you cannot hope to be funded unless you have a partner, a minority institution partner. even the white house initiative says, that all of the agencies of the u.s. government must have a relationship with hbcus him. the pressure for them is that they have to have this relationship. but they often don't feel that they want to share the power in

that relationship. so that's number one. when you approach any hbcus, approach it with respect to make sure your intentions are the right ones. and that is, you want partnership and not to continue a paternalistic relationship, which would be insulting at the very least. second, programs you offer for our students must of course, have the same kinds of provisions as the ones you have written students. so do not say that you're going to have certain programs for your students, but for those hbcus that are not as strong you're going to do something different. you should not do that under any circumstances. finally, i would say that the most important thing is not to

come with a middleman of resources. here is the reality of the hbcus situation. they are typically, typically underfunded. that means they do not have the staff that large white institutions have. one of the complaints you hear all the time from those institutions. well, we try to do this program with the hbcus, but they weren't responsive and we could not get this done, we can't get that done. of course you can't. because they do not have the staff that you have. one of the things to factor in as you are trying to start any kind of partnership is to ask the question about staffing. to what extent are you able, given your resources, to be able to participate in this partnership? and if you can't, based on staffing, what can we do to help staff up so that you can

participate on an equal basis. >> the only thing i could possibly add to what's miss simmons has so forcibly and very effectively suggested is this. that a partnership really is about reciprocity. otherwise, again, it is paternalism. if there is reciprocity, it does seem to me, that those who are coming from a pwi have got to do the kind of inner work, the kind of transformation of their own thinking and learning, to entertain and ultimately believe that there are things they can learn from hbcus

it is not a one-way streets where the pwis, out of the generosity of their souls decide to come and help the poor hbcus. historically, black colleges and universities, i think can teach pwis and enormous amount about teaching. about the very process of using respect for where a student is, as a platform for taking that student to where she can possibly go. our hbcus have done or miss amount to teach about the experience that is outside of the classroom. and you and i both know, some of that is in the lives of

fraternities and sorority bees on our campus. but i think that there is something that happens at hbcus that i think pwis could well learn. and that is how college experience can literally affirm who a student is, in the process of preparing her for where she is to go. >> thank you both. our next question is from miss basque are ville. >> thank you so very much, i would like to first think julie richardson for her tremendous vision and her leadership that has brought to us the history makers and now the world's largest digital archive of african americans.

i would like to thank you for your exclusive moderating. and my leaders, the presidents of my two institutions, past president and president president, for their enriching and inspiring remarks. i am always touched deeply and a stand a little taller because you are my leaders. i would like to contextualize my question. i know that 40 years ago, when dr. mary francis berry, one of our other education giants was the head of the office for civil rights in the united states department of education. she responded to a lawsuit brought by the national association for equal opportunity and higher education, the association i'm privilege to represent. it is the membership an advocacy association of all of the hbcus and all of the pwis.

we brought litigation and after years of negotiation back and forth, she settled the case. and established principle that, it states that maintain dual higher education system, one black and one white, the state must invest in the hbcus so that they are programed are comparable given their missions, their facilities, their salaries and the like. that was 40 years ago. and then suing hears, many things have transpired. some of which have led to the current state, where hbcus are graduating 42% of african americans in science, technology, engineering and math. 50% of american public education professionals, 52% of blacks in agriculture, and the list goes on.

some hbcus are collectively punching way above their weight and graduated the growing populations of the country. yet, in response to a question put forward about what we can do in the case, because in some cases our institutions are struggling. what we can do is insist that america invest in hbcus them, that it is commensurate with their input and their outcomes. there is a case going on in maryland today that is looking at that very issue. a case in which the public of historical black colleges sue the state, because despite the tremendous output, and despite the fact that oregon state university, the university of maryland, east shore and topping state university are graduating disproportionately more of the growing population of the states. they are not receiving full

funding. would i would like to know from my leader presidents is, would you support the idea of either congress or the next administration withholding public dollars from those states that fail to invest in public universities such that they are comparable to and competitive with their historically white colleagues. >> i will start from a public policy perspective, that is a very specific prescription. it is not the only one. and so, would i support thoroughly the idea that state should be forced to fund these institutions appropriately? absolutely. absolutely. whether or not that is the right way to do it, i won't

comment on that. because i really do not know frankly. what would be the right way to approach it? but, obviously, this is a continuation of a very unjust circumstance. that should not be permitted to continue. there is no question about that. i will be happy to say that. i am happy to say that i think it is the right thing to do. to stop underfunding institutions. there are all kinds of ways that states find a way to do that, by the way. they find a way to do it because of the achievement level of students. they find a way to do it because of the disparate economic conditions which for students to have a particular path they think is not something they approve of. they find lots of reasons, not

to fund that the appropriate level, because they would rank institutions as not achieving in the way that they specifically would like for them to be achieving. that is a hoax. i think there is more that has to be disclosed as unjust, in the terms of the way the funding occurs today. i think the more information that can be brought to bearable that, the better. >> there is little to add other than to say that the very acronym that you have over the years stood with and stood by and promoted, says, of course. there must be equal opportunity for our institutions. of course it does. so my answer to your question

is the same, yes. but of course, it takes more than saying such a thing, signing a petition. it takes systematic and persistent organizing to make this happen. it is my hope that in a new era that will begin in january, that the biden harris leadership team will have a very strong, very powerful, an effective position. and an action on our hbcus, how could i expect less win the sister vice president is a graduate of howard university?

>> thank you, a lot of people feel that way. i would like to bring in bob smith for the next question. >> it has been a pleasure listening to you both. this has really been inspiring for me having looked at this history. i have a very brief question, since society, particularly the judicial system, has cut off affirmative action as a relief for educating african americans, the emphasis has shifted to providing african american kids with a good elementary education, so that they can be competitive. we can have a strong pipeline of students going to both pwi and hbcus. what role, historically, some hbcus have played a major role in working with k-12 education. what role can hbcus continue to

play in assisting school districts and individual schools and strengthening elementary school programs we can have a strong pipeline of students coming into higher education and being competitive? >> one of the things that has been a great misfortune of higher education in the last decades is a reduction on focus schools education. and the trivialization in some ways of the profession in regard to other fields. the rise of stem and other fields have in some ways caused people to discourage students from concentrating fields leading to teaching. the and that is having a profound effect in general.

smith's coming that will make it easier for these students to be able to make a living, if they choose, if they choose that path. but in addition to that, we think that the policy direction is very important. we recently took on work with the state legislature here, and texas, to persuade them of what we think is the appropriate curriculum for students, as they come through public education. and that won't surprise you,

relates to educating them about their history, for example, earlier on, to make sure that the began to have a sense of connection to that history, and a sense of confidence about who they are, in addition to all of the other things. so from a policy perspective, i think it is very important for our faculty to engage, at the k-12 level, in terms of the curriculum, certainly, also for our students to be in the schools, giving these young students examples of what they can do. and we spent eight inordinate amount of effort bringing these young people to our campus. you want from the earliest time for them to be socialist, to the idea, that's where they're headed. they're going to college.

we think that helps to motivate them in continuing with their education. and and rolling in some of the prerequisite courses that they will need in order to study in some areas and college. so there is much that one can do. there is no one formula. in my view, that works, but you have to be engaged. >> it is simply too important. >> very quickly, to say our destinies are tied. there can be in the future no true success for hbcu's without true success in public school education. and we are at the point in our country now, where there is more segregation and the public schools than ever before in some ways. it's done now by zip codes.

it is done by who gets the resources for the school because it is situated in this particular neighborhood? and so the hbcu community certainly has to find more and more effective ways to be in genuine partnership with educating african american children from k through 12, and on into higher ed. >> well said. for trinidad only -- unfortunately we are out of time. this is time well spent. i want to thank first of all the committee for your time, i want to thank dr. simmons, doctor coal, your insights and dedication to inspire us, to review education in the african american community. we certainly hope that all of

you will reflect on today's presentation. it really is a call to action, underscoring the importance of preserving a rich history. i want to thank you all. please be well. >> weeknights this month we're featuring american history tv programs as a preview of what's available every weekend on c-span 3. the national history center host events for congressional members and staff to learn the historical background that -- contemporary issues. take a cough programs lawyer and historian, julian, talks about the threat of descent that exams the tension between immigration law, the first amendment, and the use of deportation to suppress political speech. watch tuesday beginning at eight eastern and enjoy american history tv every weekend on c-span 3.

confirmation hearings for president biden administration continue tomorrow with kathleen hicks. she's been nominated to be the deputy defense secretary. she will testify before the senate armed service committee. you can watch live tuesday coverage starting at 9:30 am eastern here on c-span three, online at c-span.org, or listened live on the free c-span radio app. >> an event hosted by the history makers, retired army general, vincent brooks looked at the history of african americans service and the military, and some of the challenges they still face today. he is interviewed by --