virginia. watch american history tv this weekend on c-span 3. you're watching c-span 3 and today we're brought to you by these television companies who provide c-span 3 to viewers as a public service. >> joining us this morning is tm garret, the founder and ceo of the organization change memphis. andigator is also a former neo-nazi and kkk leader. good morning. thanks for being on washington journal this morning. >> good morning. thank you for having me. >> so before we get to your journey and how you became a former kkk lead, tell us about your background, where you grew up your early years. >> well, i'm born and raised in

germany, born in 1975, very conservative times. it was a lot different born into a very, small, small, small 500 citizens. my parents had a drinking problem. it was a very disfupgzal fapally, one of those classic stories that you hear from some people in the white supremacist movement. but a lot of kids grow up like that and don't become a nazi or kkk leader. so the question what happened in my life to make me go these ways. it had a lot to do with identity, looking for a purpose, a sense of belonging. i was a very bullied kid. there were many, many reasons to bully me. i was a perfect victim for bullies. and it was actually in puberty when kids started cracking jokes, inappropriate jokes, racist jokes. and it was mostly boys doing

that. and it was boys trying to discover their masculinity and it was also the time we started learning about the third reich and the holocaust in school. growing up in germany i witnessed germany has done a great job and making sure it must never happen again. against immigrants and then against the black people and all of a sudden they put the holocaust on the table with i think at that time not enough discourse about it. that has changed, fortunately but here in the u.s. we have to do more but we can talk about it later. i will say it was anti-semitic what i did, but i didn't do it for the sake to hate jews because i didn't know anything about it. i thought nazis died in 1946.

they were hung after the war. they'd gone. the war was lost so very clear that the nazis brought nothing but destruction and -- >> and how old are you when you're learning in germany about these neo-nazi organizations? you mentioned you were going through puberty. so about how old are you now in terms of this happening? >> this is when we talk about these jokes and everything i was 12, 13 and i did not know anything about these organizations yet. the things that -- the other boys went back to normal at some point. the problem was i didn't have a normal to go back to. for nothing in the world i would have gone back to that so i ran with those jokes a little bit longer. the problem is with a certain call out culture, and i was put in a box and i felt no one's

looking in the box to see this human being in there. they're all just look at the label. and that's where i lived, and i had a hard time getting out. actually, i didn't get out otall. so at the age of 14, 15, a kid on a schoolyard gave me a cassette tape with hate music, and music was one of the only things that played an important part in my life until i was little and i was hooked because the message resonated with me. >> at this time do you -- when you think about your family life, though, were your parents kind of catching onto what was going on with you? >> well, my parents dwortsed when i was born so during the divorce i grew up without a father figure. that was an important point where people have a father

figure, a constant remain a role model in your kids lives. i very often thought she just doesn't care. and she tried to figure it out in what she witnessed, and she tried to figure out the problems but she didn't see the full extent of the whole problem because it's kids. they act up. you've seen it on tv or if you're a little bit older you know in the 70s and 80s you have punk music and we have to also point out original skin heads that originated in great britain in the 160s were anti-racist. they were actually radicalized in great britain in the 1970s, and so the music was first a little bit more soft. it resonated. it was like you're a proud german. they call you a nazi but you're

actually not. and that's what i felt. in the '80s you couldn't do that. it's like making fun of satan in a baptist church. it's just a too serious topic, you don't do it. we did it. hey, i'm making fun of hitler, i can't be a nazi. but i grew into a role it was like a self-fulfilling prophecy. with hate music it was easier then. with every cassette tape i got more radicalized until i finally said who are those groups? i want to know them, i want to get to know them and i found a group of skin heads that i joined at the age of 15. >> so you're with this group and at some point you come to the units and you become part of the kkk. when did that happen? >> well, it was actually the other way around? so growing into that age 15, age

17 i joined a far right party in germany and that's where the ideological came in. it's not about using those symbols for provocation, which we did. it was just provoking at the agef 15, 16. i didn't know anything about it. but with a party explaining to us, the false ideology i started picking up nationalism, and then i got to know more people, and it became white nationalism. with the internet popping up in the late '90s this white power movement came in and i became a white supremacist. still in germany 1998 when a group of kkk members asked me if i wanted to join the kkk because that group existed in germany since the 1920s. many people don't know that. >> that kkk group existed in germany since the 1920s. >> well, kkk groups existed in germany in the 1920s.

they were ironically banned on hitler. it was just a secret society, secret group he wanted to ban. american gis brought it back to germany in the '60s. and then skin heads brought it back in the '80s and '90s. and ever since you have five, six different kkk groups living in germany, small but they're there. and one of these groups started following me around because i also became a well-known musician in the white supremacist movement. they followed me around and asked me if i wanted to join, and this is what i did ending up two years in that group. and about two years later founding my own group with a couple members, encouraged by a couple groups in the u.s. and by 2002 but i got out of the movement in 2002. >> let me stop you there and make sure that our viewers know they're welcome to call in

202-748-8001. all others 202-748-002. we're talking to the founder and ceo of change memphis. he's a former neo-nazi and kkk member telling us his story. you mentioned 2002. tell us how long you lived under this ideology, activedq in this ideology. and whathéqíy+ was the moment o incident that you had that sort of brought you -- started to make you change? tell us about that. >> sometimes we call them former white supremacist, former nazis. you have moments where they start thinking that their life is going in a wrong direction and you may want to take action. and this is a tricky part. these trigger moments, key

moments exist enmany peoples lives. it take as lot of courage actually to leave those groups and you also need the encouragement from the society out there. the big, big problem we have who likes nazis? of course nobody. who likes the kkk? nobody. so would you go to talk to somebody who you know actually hates you? well, probably not. so you stay a little bit longer. it's like an abusive relationship. you know that it's toxic but you stay because it's just so hard to start over new. i'm in this movement for 15 years already. i live it, i breathe it, i live in a bubble. i exclude everything from my life, mainstream music, mainstream food. i boycotted certain companies because i thought they were led by the enemy.

and i was so caught in that, you know, that i couldn't see anything else. and you just wake up with it and it's pressure because you think a revolution starts at any time or yournomy it taking over. so we were in the there and we had the group in germany. and when i was recruitediest like i don't want to be in the group and i want to get away from violence and everything. and they told me, no, the violence is just -- we know that's not true but that's what they told me. it's about living a long time and all of us label it as the civil rights group for all of white people. of course it's not true, but they presented it to me like we are the powerful enemy who wants to destroy our people and i can be a super hero who can save my people. and honestly which kid doesn't

want to be a super hero? so i could be that super hero, and i wanted to do that. and we recruited influential people. we had police officers that became a big scandal in germany many years later. and of course the government didn't like that, so they started investigating. we didn't do anything criminal but they didn't like the idea having police officers and such and they put a lot of pressure and convinced me at some point that i will be held responsible if any of my members back then would commit a violent crime. also a tricky part. committing a violent crime we told the members always do not commit a crime but claiming we are not violent. well, if we would have been hippies with flower power i would not have been -- it would not have been necessary to tell my members hey don't commit a crime. of course it was a hateful and violent message. we had to tell members all the

time don't do it, don't do it. but i was so caught in that and so much under pressure. and i realized i cannot control these members, and i don't know what's happening. and i would be held responsible. the first action was it was fear, and i kind of did something that was safe in the movement. i retired, and this is what i did first. and i was still a full-blown islamaphobe, and it was one year after 9/11. and i was just struggling in my head with what i'm going to do without the group. and at the end i decided with my family we have to move. and we moved about 100 miles away. and here comes the interesting part. it was like two weeks before christmas, i was on section 8 all of a sudden because i lost my income. that was all connected to the

movement. starting over completely after 15 years. back to normal -- well, that was my normal. it was hard. you can see how long it's been, you know, and i picked up the phone, called the number and i couldn't hear the accent. it was a turkish immigrant picking up the phone and i was like really please. and i started lying to myself, let's take the apartment just temporarily and we moved. the landlord lived on the first level, we lived on the second level. of course we ran into each other. we shared the same hallway and there was a lot of interactions. and i was convinced, again, one year after 9/11. i was convinced all muslims are terrorists like osama bin laden. i was convinced he's wearing a mask and i would be able to unmask him at some point and expose him as the turkish muslim terrorist i thought he was. the problem is 6, 7 months i

tried so hard and i was unsuccessful. and he always brought the kindness to me and compassion. and the thing is i couldn't unmask him because he didn't wear a mask. he really was just a nice person. and i realized after many months i was the guy wearing the mask literally, you know? and that made me really think. i was like i was the dude with the bad expectations. i was the dude with the bad thoughts here. it wasn't him. >> we want to get to more of your story, too, and that's the start, your interaction with your landlord there and the apartment in germany. he of turkish descent and islam. we want to find out more about your finding of change in

memphis and what drove that. we have a number of calls. let's get to some of those. t.m. garret is our guest. you've heard him tell a story of being involved in a neo-nazi group with the kkk and his struggle with that and more to come as well. let's hear from you. and first up is linda in arizona. thanks for waiting. go ahead with your comment. >> caller: good morning, and i'd like to thank all the c-span staff. i find that you take a very neutral role and that allows the commenters and the listeners to engage in a better way than if you as the people working there were clearly showing your colors one way or another. so thank you for that neutrality. and to the gentleman who's the guest, also thank you to you. and i have a couple questions if i might. and one was from when you first started to realize maybe you were on the wrong path to when you femt like you were clear of

that path you wanted to get off, how long a period of time was that for you? >> it was quite a long time. it doesn't happen overnight. i would be leery of anyone who would just change overnight and realize, oh, this was wrong, i was wrong for 2 years, 4 years, 8 years, in my case 15 years and all of a sudden i'm a peace activist. this is something i wouldn't buy today. if someone comes to me with that story i would be very leery of that. if it's someone that tells me i'm still struggling with this and this topic after a year that's what i would believe. radicalization is that steady drop, that steady influence that you start to believe, that you only listen to this, only listen to these voices, only listen to this music and you're fading out everything else. and everything else becomes like

the conspiracy. and the interesting part about conspiracies is that you present somebody who lives with conspiracy theory with the truth another person will be part of the conspiracy. even if it was so visible and clear we would just push it to the side like they were the ones to deceive you. this the enemy coming up with a lie. this is part of the conspiracy. and this was planted in my head for 15 years slowly building up and took many years to get rid of everything. and i started working on certain things. in this case because of the muslim landlord my islamaphobia. so when that happened with the landlord and he actually unmasked me. he ripped off that mask on my face and i was sitting there i felt like the hate was crumbled, and i had to decide what i'm going to do with those crumbs. am i going to analyze them or put them back together and

loathe the hatred i used to nurture? because i'm a curious person i thought let's find out. let's find out if the other muslims in germany, if they're maybe terrorists. and my landlord was pretending still or he was the exception. i don't know. i went out there and really talked to people in the muslim community and immigrant community rather than the street gangs we were fighting when we were skin heads or the people we didn't know or stuff i was listening to, the secret thing said they would do in the mosques and prepare, it was all not true i found it out. because i went out i embraced them, i wanted to know first-hand. it took many, many years. took probably a year to get rid of all these stereotypes of all these things i believe in. >> linda, you're still on the

line. do you have another question for garret? >> yes, i'd like to ask one more question and that is relating to the coup on the capitol. it seems like many of the people there are believing in stereotypes that they've been fed, which i observe to be many of them to be lies or twisted portions of of facts. and i've listen today a lot of the interviews of people that were part of that march and what they believe in and why they were there. and most of them are quoting donald trump that he lost the election by a bunch of people stealing it. so in the case of those people do you still see a path for them? >> thanks for your question. >> those people feel encouraged by a former president. this is a fact. and for some parts it was a

president i would have wished we had back in the day partly. and the interesting part we have here is a lot of people call these groups in the capitol, groups that were supporting donald trump, talking about these groups like the proud bois and such. there's something else that p■ ds them together andúl" w them that is white nationalallism and that of course attracts a lot of white supremacists because that's what they do, too. of course it's tricky. and you see these people who storm the capitol, and you have really a wide variety of different people that were there and you try to figure out who do they fit together? because you've got -- one person got arrested for example and

another one had a holocaust t-shirt, a holocaust denier. and you're wondering how's it possible that people that seem so opposite commit something like this but the smallest common denominator here is nationalism rather than anti-semtime. the question they put out or the claim the election was stolen, this is the key factor that actually brought them together and the smallest common denominator. ultranationalism and the claim the election was stolen. we always said back then sometimes we cooperated with muslims, sometimes even though

they were anti-celtic holocaust deniers if you had a jew we would cooperate with them too because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. on that day january 6th for those people this day counted. and i don't believe any of those people went in there thought any longer what would happen tomorrow. they were driven by these hateful messages endorsed by certain people especially in these message boards, forums, social media whether pushed there and at the end encouraged. >> let's get a call from barbara who's in oak bluffs, massachusetts. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i just want to tell mr. garret he's doing a fantastic job in this interview. he's so incredibly articulate and he's painting a picture of such depth and breadth, so i just want to encourage him

deeply, deeply to continue with whatever form the group changes. and we haven't heard about that yet. i know we will. it brought to mind maybe we need to create radicalization anonymous like alcoholics anonymous in order to give another venue of belonging for people who want to move into. and i'm sure that's what you're thinking about, the tree you're barking up, sir. i see you nodding on my screen. and i just want to tell you that in pete buttigieg's presidential campaign he talked about belonging as the key thing that's missing. and it was such a brilliant thing for him to do because really the first time a politician in a national campaign brought in a psychological domain. this is all about ideation meaning thinking and language and speaking to yourself and others. and c-span's production team i really want to ask you, please, please i beg you start bringing

in the behavioral psychologists, okay? we need to get dialogue between people like tt.m. and people who have understanding psychologically with people who understand. >> i appreciate that, barbara and giving us information what t.m. is up to with organization, with change she asked about. >> when i started change it was just 2016 when i started change and living in memphis, african-american population of about 70% and you had a lot of protests and a lot of people it was not as bad as it was last year. but there was gaps. there was like the gap between black and white that seemed to be growing when i moved to the u.s. i had a picture. and that was of course driven by

hollywood. and i moved here to the south and it didn't happen. you had these two different cultures living right next to each other and they try to build these bridges. when i started telling my story and other people reached out to me and i decided i can help people. and i started help people getting out of extremist environments, and we also have a campaign where we cover up hate tattoos, racist tattoos for free to give those people a second chance. but now with the whole political radicalization where normal people, normal conservatives are radicalized this is completely different dimension because we're talking not about a classic hate group but a lot of people who get radicalized by certain things they see online. i've been there. i believe these things. i know how it goes. this is why i'm ready for battle. and what you said is exactly

what we're trying to do, the dialogue. the secret is walking across the cafeteria like my good friend darren davis says -- >> and our viewers can get more information about that, too, at changememphis.org. let's hear from loreta in cleveland, ohio. good morning. >> caller: oh, good morning. good morning. my first question is the answer of his change metamorphosis. but i am more interested in what he thinks the racist insurrection was on january 6. because it seems there are two big lies are being told. the first lie is that america don't belong to white people. and the second lie is that

donald trump did not win the 2020 election. >> all right, loreta. t.m. you've addressed it a little bit. any further comments you want to make on the capitol attack? >> i just wanted to chime in there real quick. if we ask the question who does america belong to let's say as a nation of immigrants, this is what every white person on this continent is, is an immigrant. and therefore it's a country of all immigrants. and of course it belongs to white people just as it belongs to black people just as it belongs to brown people and muslim people and hindu people and jewish people and christian people. it is a nation for people and for immigrants. this is how it was founded. these are the core principles of this country. the second thing you asked i mean we can fight about it all day long, but i don't think this is how we can unite this

country. how we can unite this country, this is what we're talking before as well. what do we identify it as. republican and democrat, yes, i believe the election was stolen, no i don't believe the election was stolen and we are all americans and have to heal as a nation. and i know with the vast majority of people who believe that the election was stolen, that we can just keep talking about this one topic that it will not lead us anywhere. we have to find the humanity in each other again. stop calling each other killers and racists because not all republicans are racists, and not all democrats are waking up and killing babies. these things are nonsense and just used by radical forces to get the regular american into

dehumanization. i'm from germany originally, and germany has seen a path from over patriotism to white nationalism, white socialism and leading to mass genocide. a whole population commit that and supported genocide, that whole population was not evil. they were not -- like americans are not evil or whatever. they were lured into that and dehumanization was a big part of that, taking humanity away from a certain group of the population. >> tm, what brought you to the united states? >> it was a childhood dream. everybody dreams of the rich uncle in america. american culture played a big role in germany because america pardoned my french kicked germany's ass in world war ii.

and everything america is today and germans appreciated it and that played a big role with internet, tv. and i wanted to live here since i was probably 5 and it was just a matter of time. and in 2012 and there were different things that played a role, but i decided it's a good time, decided to start a business with friend, a music recording studio at that time and i just moved. >> let's hear it from philip from glendale, arizona. >> nice to meet you and see what you're talking about. what i'm worried about is everything that you're saying, if everyone is saying that a trump supporter is a nazi here in america isn't that going to lead to this disarmament and taking over and kind of putting us in the camps that exterminated everybody to begin with?

i'll take my answer off-line. thank you. >> no, i didn't say that all republicans are nazis. that's the same narrative on the other side, all democrats are baby killers, all democrats are communists, they want to destroy the country. you hear those things from radical forces on both sides that actually bring the regular american against each other and taking humanity away because you don't see your neighbor as jeff or jill anymore. you only ask yourself oh, you see a -- they don't think anymore do these people have children, do they worry about their children the same i do, do they worry about their income the same i do? when i moved here to the u.s. in 2012 guess how many people talked about who they voted for during the last election?

zero. it didn't matter. it mattered if you're a good person, if your acs defined you as a good person, not who you voted for. it was completely unimportant. this is something that changed during the last four, five, six years drastically. >> let me ask you also on top of what philip asked this comment from russ in texas who says that, t.m., give us your outside take on the way both democrats and republicans use the media to demonize each other. >> this is what i say dehumanizing. and the one that don't fit in that category and then you have the people, radicals on each side are only percentage as well. so it's not a majority of americans that have all these

radical ideas on both sides. because of the pandemic i'm very careful and take it serious. but these people are normal people. they're still very moderate and reasonable people that have some of those ideas, but can talk to those people. the social media and a lot of the media they echo the radical ideas, and it almost looks like we only have radicals on the left, radicals on the right. and both sides say the other is not good for america. while we have a broad of americans who are moderate and fit in the middle and we don't see them because everybody is bigger with facebook, everyone is busy with either cnn or fox,

or whatever they look at for the left, or right. it doesn't matter. everyone is busy with that and really human relationships even if they don't encourage people to go out there and have mass meetings or meetings during a pandemic. but even social media where you've got that constant gratification of likes and people telling you, oh, you're right, you showed the person, the left side, the right side. whatever it is, rather than have a direct conversation with one person and try to know each other and not beat at that horse, not talk only about topics that you know will lead nowhere. because if you have a liberal or conservative you pick topics like during the mid-terms you had the border wall. it will lead you nowhere. it's that horse because you know both sides have hard views on them. abortion is the same thing. it will lead nowhere at this point. try to find the commonalities. because i guarantee if someone

out there is married why did you choose your spouse? because of the things you agreed on or the things you disagreed on? no, you built the smallest bond, you build it on the commonalities. and once you build those commonalities you realize how much you have in common. >> we're going to go to sharon in minnesota, democrats line. >> caller: good morning. 45 negative below 0 here this morning up herewcc> oh, boy. thank you, mr. garret, for telling your story. i'm like in serious awe this morning. i'm extremely proud of you, and most of my questions have been answered, but i stuck on the line and i came up with just one other one. and our u.s. intelligence agencies have said that the biggest risk to the united

states are these hate groups. so me being way up here in minnesota like what can one simple little person do to make a change, to help with this? because just going into town yesterday we saw lots of people still wearing their trump mask said and wearing their stop the steal stuff, and it's hard not be angry but most of us are trying to move forward and just wondering if there's anything the little people can do. >> cites so hard not to be angry. sometimes it's not that important if you're wrong, you're right because you have different truths, objective truths, political truths and personal truths. what you experience for yourself is personal truth.

someone with a trump mask has different things and has experienced different truths. so some things may be true for you and for them. if you sit down and talk to somebody with a main mission to convert or convince somebody will not work. that's, again, back to the smallest basic relationship we can have in a marriage, for example. if you try to convince your spouse that you are right and they are wrong answer the question yourselves. it will not work. and it's the same thing, and it's hard not to be angry also for the other side it's hard not to be angry in general as a human being, and when i talk about unconditional love, we should love all human beings despite their ideologies. you can dislike the ideology and this is a big difference. the difference between love and liking somebody. if your child comes home you still love your child. you may not like it at the time but you still love your child.

you still sit down with your child and try to figure it out. and here is the hard part. loving somebody that you don't like at this moment. and this is the hard part. these people with a trump mask they expect -- do you hate them or their ideology? ask them, sit down, let's have a coffee. let's talk about the things in your life not about dead horses necessarily that will lead us nowhere. just have a conversation, also we need to start showing each other respect. we lost the art of civil discourse, and this is what we need to do sometimes listen, let the other person talk. and also understanding -- understanding doesn't mean you agree. somebody can put out an awful ideology that you will be able to understand because they explain where they're coming

from, and they will be like, oh, wow i never saw it from that point and i still don't agree but i do understand you. and the other side will all of a sudden have a certain respect for you and will more likely listen to what you to say than each other. yelling has never changed nub's mind. never. >> tm garrett is the founder and ceo of change memphis. he's also a former neonazi, member of the kkk. can you hang with us another ten minutes and take a couple more questions? let's go to terry in atlanta, georgia. >> caller: good morning. how are you both? >> fine thank you. >> fantastic. >> caller: i called in about a month ago, it was right before we had our special election here in georgia. i was complaining about the ads

and all of the negative ads and being happy when we get past that. look what's happened in a month. i can't believe it. the very next day we have is a special election and there's nothing hardly about that on the news because everyone is talking about the people who stormed the capitol. i think this whole stop the steal would go away if one man would a admit he lost the election. if he admit he lost the election, i think that would take care of a lot of this but i don't know how much you do in america, it does exist. i will tell you that. it has for 400 years. and i have to disagree with you that the founders had in mind that everyone was equal. if you look at the document that is written, you get that idea.

but then you look at other amendments to it over the years. why do we have to pass amendments to say people can vote. why do we have to pass amendments to say people can dpo to any school they choose or ride on a bus. why to you have to pass amendments. people who call in and say tired of being called racists, stop acting like a racist. i'm old enough to remember segregation. and i'm old enough to remember integration and the naacp being called the communist of the time. now we have the radical groups of people saying they are communists. both actions are history of america. we have good people on every level and every race and we have people that want to think that they are superior because they

have a certain ideology. that's not the america we aspire to be. and that's not the america that we need to be and we want to be. >> good to hear from you. a couple other callers. you had a couple good points and lock forward to hear from you again. tm, did you want to respond? >> i didn't say before that the nation was founded on equality because it wasn't. i just founded it was founded as a nation of immigrants. at that time the founding fathers were talking about white immigrants because it was europeans coming here and we know the rest of of the history and we know why this country needed the amendments. and europe and our colonies were based on white supremacy at the time. it is away it is. the question we have here, we live in a country that are based

on this. mostly built on the back of white people. white people benefit from that. it's hard to admit it. my background from germany might bring in a different perspective. this is something hard and painful to do to admit this. . as a white person in america, it's sometimes hard for people, especially in the south, to admit my forefathers have done something awful. you're talking about your grand dad. this is a hard thing 37 it's a painful thing to do. this is where we just have to be a little human to each other and not beat each other and say you're not responsible for him. don't feel guilty for being white. don't feel ashamed. white people have privilege.

it sticks on them. it is what it is. but rather than make people feel guilty and make them responsible for things that happened, tell people you have a responsibility for the future. and we this is not america we wanted to be at. and it wasn't founded as this. i think we're on a good way. if we stay on this track, this is a good way already. we have to keep fighting for racial equality. you named the naacp. i'm a minute because i think this is important. i have been called out for being a racist against white people. which i don't understand. i don't hate white people. i love everybody. this is just something. unconditional love. >> a question for you on twitter. please explain the difference of in the kkk in germany vs. the usa.

not many black people in germany in the 20s. who were they attacking? same as qanon today? >> it was a lot of anti-semitism. what drove semitism in europe and in america in the early 20th century was propaganda that came out from russia. i don't want to name the publication on national television. i don't want to do that. i want to encourage people to read that, but they put the idea out that jews want to take over the world and they are responsible for everything. germany just came out of a war where they had their own government betrayed them and they were betrayed and things were taken from them, it's similar to the election. and saying the election was

stolen. it was similar in the '20s it was for far right groups that were popping up. and you had the counterpart. you had a big communist moment and a socialist movement. they were beating each other for a long time before the nazis took over. this is what happened in germany, also in the media. people felt like they have to take one of these sides. and they felt like if only one of these two radical sides to pick from. they wanted to stay moderate, but they didn't have a choice. this is what we have to make sure people know this today in society, especially here in america. yes, you do have a choice. you do not have to pick. you can, but you don't have to. this is the nice thing if you have a choice. you can do whatever you want. just choose humidity. >> let's see if we get a couple more calls to barbara in maryland.

>> caller: good morning, thank you for having me on. i'm a biracial female and i work in law enforcement. and i have done a lot of research related to the holocaust as well as african-american history. and also history. i have learned that by watching the black and white movies of, actual documentaries of what happened in germany with the holocaust, it helped me grow as a person. and i did that on my own. it was not taught in school. yo is if you have a platform to talk with biden and kamala harris, what information would you provide to them in order for

us to stop this huge divide. because if we don't stop the huge divide, we will end up like germany and the holocaust. we'll end up like a lot of these other countries that dehumanize the human like they did with the jews where they cut can off their hair. they basically had no value back then. >> i would encourage them a as i could encourage everybody on each side to humanize each other. bring that message out. and the problem is if biden says we have to move forward in unity, trump voters to join him and they say you didn't want that four years ago and now we

don't want that. it's like the child in the sand box. you stole my stuff. now i don't want to play with you either. it's a vortex and we can't get out of that until both sides say we need to stop this. and we need erbe in this country doing that. and if only biden is saying that, you have a lot of democrats that say, no, we don't want you. if you have people from the far right who started to turn, you'll hear it was too little too late. i must say it's never too late. it's never too little. every little step in the right direction should be welcome. if a white supremacist changes just a little bit. welcome it. tell them you welcome it. enb courage the change rather than doubt the change. otherwise, we push them exactly where or even further. >> how many people like you have you met that have been former

neonazi or former kkk member? >> hundreds. this is a whole network of former white supremacists. you'll find a vast majority. a big group of people and organizations that do a great job helping deradicalize people that want to get out with great programs. not only with me, so i'm only one little wheel in a big machine. i'm just using my resource sometimes to collaborate with others. often we just don't see them. people disengage and get out of a hate group and out of a conspiracy theory and don't know where to go because it is not featured. there's no awareness of these things. you can reach out. and then you can also get

psychological help and get into deradicalization. >> last call. dianna is in halifax, pennsylvania. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i really appreciate you appearing on the program this morning. my question to you, growing up in germany, i don't understand hiel. you could not recognize the fact that your country brought us into a world war because of within radical and a group of radicals. and then you seem to have blame ed it on media and blame it on the radicals in america. everyone has a responsibility to

think for themselves. i grew up in the southeastern united states. and i saw bigotry firsthand. and we had the history of slavery, which i have never been able to wrap my brain around. >> i'll let you go there. and tm garrett, you can to respond to her question or comment. >> first, when i started, i told the story with inappropriate jokes. i knew i was fully aware that nazis were the bad guys and brought destruction and the war. i was fully aware. i was not cherishing it. it was inappropriate stuff we did. i was classified as a nazi at the time when i wasn't one. and it was a hard time getting out. i was put in a box. the lid was closed. put a label on it and i lived in there and i radicalized and we

need to start to think for ourselves. this is true. but if you just get in touch with the wrong people that feed you with the wrong ideas, then you start thinking about these wrong ideas. and over time, you start believing these things. because this is the only thing you see. this is the only thing you hear. and the truth comes the truth for you. their truth. and this is the tricky part if we live in boxes, if we can't break out. this is also let's try to wrap this up. i don't blame it just on the media. the media is one part that often echoes certain messages from one side, from left to right, whatever. depending where that media stands. whenever a community i'm working with black community, muslim community, jewish community, and

whenever these minority groups feel under attack and everybody feels helpless, when something happens. all these things in this community is rnd attack and don't know what to do. and i say look also at smaller incidents and memphis when a kid wrote a racial slur on a school table. it was the "n" word. everybody was about to kick the kid out of school, e pelt him from school. it's a racist. kick him out. nobody looked at this kid as a human being anymore. we don't even know. he was radicalized. and here's the beauty and the power we have. no matter how disempowered we feel, helpless, we all as a

community incluing the minority communities have great power looking in those boxes where these people are at these certain points in their lives opening them, look at the human being and we can decide if you pull them out, put them back on the right track with dialogue. acceptance of the ideologies. or if we just leave them in the boxes and the guys with the white hoods pull them out. it happens. this is where we can take action. walk across the cafeteria, embrace others that may think different than you, look different, pray different, love different, and most importantly vote different. embrace them. >> tm garrett is the founder and ce o of change memphis. it has been a pleasure to have you with us this morning.

thank you for being here. >> thank you so much. coming up shortly here on c-span, president biden making his first visit to the pentagon as president. he will make remarks to defense department employees. when that gets underway, we'll bring that to you live here on c-span. >> the president and ce of of the jobs creator network. thank you for joining us. >> thank you for having me. a little bit about your organization. explain how it's funded and the perspective you take when it comes to small businesses. >> absolutely. we represent 30 million small business owners that really employ about 60 million hard-working americans, or that

was precovid. it's from all industries from all different demographics and political preferences. it's just about small businesss. it's the backbone of our country. it's the backbone of our communities. and right now they are really suffering. that's the biggest concern. especially as we talk about the $15 minimum wage. it's a little bit like handing an anchor to a drowning man. this is the absolute worst time to be having these discussions. if you look at bernie sanders plan of a five-year rollout in june of 2021, which is part of his plan it goes to $9.50 which is a 31% increase in a matter of months. our small businesses are already dying. look at what's happening in new york city and california. they are barely surviving. and we are on the brink of seeing a massive collapse of our small business community and our industry and that's not going to help our industry. >> but what's the aspect of the economy and what would you say to those people making that wage

currently of $7.50? >> a lot of this conversation is people who lost their jobs with the keystone pipeline cancellation. these things can be fixed. when you look at the actual problem of $15 for industry level positions, those are never intend to be the wages for those types of positions. those are for the youth. for those folks who are in those positions that have been there for awhile, we need to talk about a broader education or skills assistance for these folks. so we can do that. i can guarantee when you look at germany, they have done a tremendous job with apprenticeships. we need to look all the ways to help to increase their output, increase what their worth is. that's the biggest problem here. just that we're trying to fix this problem with a completely wrong solution. we have to give them the skill

sets to be able to greater wages. if you mandate $15 minimum wage, guess what, technology is going to take over. the cvo said 2. million jobs are at risk. i read through that entire report. they just basically glazed over the technology issue. i can guarantee with technology coming down and the wage increase pier talking about, that inflection point we're going to hit and you're going to see technology take over those jobs. >> there was a comment from an economist at the policy institute who talked about the cvo and the minimum wage increase. he said when it comes to looking at those numbers that you referenced, it is true when you raise the minimum wage employee employers hire a few low-wage workers. the factor is that even though they are hiring fewer workers, >> good afternoon. it is a pri