book "every drop of blood." sunday at 2:00 p.m. eastern on oral histories, virginia coleman describes her experiences as a chemist for the manhattan project at oak ridge to build the atomic bomb. then the 42 giant busts of american presidents decaying on a private property in virginia. explore the american story. watch american history tv this weekend on c-span 3. joining us now is evan mcmullen, who is now the executive director of stand up republic. remind our viewers why you ran in 2016 as an independent. >> well, in 2016 i felt that in

the general election that conservative and american principals were going to be well represented during that part of the election, the general phase, and i felt that someone needed to stand up and represent those because if not they could be lost from at least half the republican -- or the american voting population. i felt somebody had to stand up and represent them. of course i thought that there should be, you know, another candidate who would represent those who didn't feel represented by either side. the most important reason was to stand up for fundamental american principals. >> are you a republican? >> i am technically registered as a republican now. obviously i feel estranged from the party and not well represented by its current direction at all. you know, so where i'll go from

here is a question. we're a two party system, and i think it's critically important obviously that both parties be committed to truth and/democracy, and i think are all americans should have a shared goal to ensure both parties are that way. i'm sure we'll talk about what that means for the future. but as far as me personally, i'm registered as a republican now but not supportive of the republican party at the moment. >> what is your reaction to this "politico" morning poll that found over half republican voters, 56%, believe that trump should either probably or definitely run for president again in 2024, just over a third of republican voters, 36% think he probably or definitely should not. >> well, it represents progress, i'll say that, that over a third of the party thinks that president trump should be in the republican party's past and not

future. but obviously it is very concerning that a majority of republicans would like to see him back in office. another three-fourths of the party believes that joe biden was not the rightful winner of the election, the last election. so there are serious challenges going forward for the party. i think donald trump remains in control of the largest portion of its base and, you know, that's whether he should be part of the party going forward in a leadership capacity is the topic of a debate. there is some oxygen for that debate right now. but clearly the direction of the party is towards him still. >> do you think republican senators in an impeachment trial should vote to convict him so that he could not run again? >> i think the most important

reason why senators should convict former president trump is simply so that there is accountability. we have a president who at the end of his term incited, i would say, led a violent insurrection against the u.s. government, against the representatives of the people in congress in order to overturn the results of an election in which he lost. if there is an accountability for such egregious action, dangerous action on the part of an executive, on the part of a president, then i fear that we're going to see other authoritarian like actions in the future. and that's a real issue. so for me it is not as much about making sure he can't run for office again. i hope he doesn't. i think he has earned, you know, being prohibited from doing so. but the most important thing is that there be consequences, including at least conviction

for insurrection led by the president. i mean, we simply cannot tolerate that. >> would you run in 2024? >> i will pursue public office again. you know, when and exactly now i'm not sure about yet, but it could happen sooner rather than later. i'm not quite sure yet. but i do feel the need to offer greater leadership to the american people and in my home state of utah. so that's something i consider. i think we need leaders who are oriented towards unifying americans to finding common ground and working towards solutions for the american people. i mean, especially at this time now where we've got almost 450,000 americans have lost their lives during the pandemic. millions of others have lost their jobs or are barely holding on. at the same time, our democracy

is more threatened than i think it's ever been since the civil war. and we need better leadership. we have some good leaders in office now, but not enough. we need more. i do feel compelled to do more on that front. but exactly how and when, i haven't decided. >> how did you perform in the state of utah in 2016? >> well, we were -- we were only in the campaign for three months, exactly three months. at the time, the beginning of the campaign, i had zero name recognition and not a team and really none of the things you would need to launch a presidential campaign. it was a campaign of last resort, even in my own mind i had hoped somebody else would do it. but in those three months, we were able to win over 20% of the vote scratching from scratch three months before election day and without hardly any resources

at the time. it was a very modst and emergency effort. but it was enough to see there was a demand for something new, for a new direction for the republican party, at least for my own state and for, you know, leaders who unify. we didn't only have republicans. we have republicans, democrats and independents who supported us, mostly republicans. but there is an opportunity. i think especially in a state like utah for more unifying, effective leadership to be put forth and help the country move forward. >> so what are you eyeing up? i mean, could it be governor? could it be senate? what are you thinking? >> i really don't -- i don't know yet. i mean, i'm looking at a handful of potential races. i think in general, i look at leaders who are doing damage to our democracy, who use division as a political strategy, who have misled the american people for years about threats to the

republic and about truth, even basic truth. and, you know, those are potential races where i think greater leadership especially is required, is needed. and, so, those are races that i look at most closely. i think there are some good leaders. in utah, we have some excellent ones. i think senator romney offered leadership to the country. you know, our governor, spencer cox, a young governor i think has quite a great deal of potential himself. he works to unify people. he's just fewly elected. and i think there are members of the congressional delegation from utah as well who have the potential to be unifying leaders. and there are others that have not, i think, met that standard and who have not lived up to -- to their oaths of office. and so those are ones that i look at in addition to thinking about the overall situation in the country.

so i just don't know yet. but i'm looking at options and hope to -- hope to help lead in one capacity or another a unifying -- a movement to bring about more unifying leadership and hopefully a change in the republican party, whether -- you know, whether i run as a republican or otherwise, we do need two parties who are committed to our foundational values and to our democracy, our democratic republic. and that's my goal. that's my broader goal. whether i run or not or regardless of what i run for, this country needs unifying leadership. i think there is an opportunity in this time of such great division and chaos in our country and frankly governance fell here over the last four years for something new, for a new approach to politics. and will it work? i don't know. but it has to.

and eventually. and i'm committed to working towards that and in any capacity that i think can be most effective. >> we want our viewers to join this conversation about the future of the republican party. republicans 202-748-8001. text us with your first name, city and state at 202-748-8003. what is stand up republic? >> stand up republic is a political nonprofit that we started in 2017. and we've worked at that organization and that organization has worked to defend american democracy for the last four years. we have done everything from promote electoral reforms that put more power in the hands of voters that give them more

choice and incentivize more unifying and effective leadership like independent redirecting and ring choice voting and other electoral reforms. excuse me. and then as well we work to promote good leaders, honorable leaders. and that has meant defeating some of the bad ones. we were one of the main organizations. i think we were the biggest outside organization that campaigned to defeat steve king that took us two election cycles. but we did that. we were a major player against roy moore, against dana and the handful of others and some who we're still working on. but we did that by mobilizing principled republicans and former republicans to stand up and to defend their principles and defeat leaders who were destructive and divisive and

dishonorable. that's what we did and that's what we continue to do. obviously we played that role in the 2020 election, working in swing states to mobilize disaffected and principals republicans to defeat donald trump and to take the country in another direction and hopefully set the stage for a change in the republican party. however difficult that still seems. >> when you look at 2022, who will be on your list of republicans that you plan to oppose? >> well, you know, i -- it's difficult -- you know, i don't know for sure. we do -- we do evaluate those opportunities. even now we're doing that. but, you know, you think of congresswoman greene, for example. you have just been recently discussing her before i came on to the program.

she is about as divisive and ineffective as they come. she's not the only one. there are others out there who have worked for the last four years longer than she's been in congress, of course, to deceive republicans across the country and to mislead them and to divide americans for their own political benefit. and, you know, those are leaders that need to be held accountable. certainly those who voted not to certify the election results who need an effort to overturn those results, those people, there are many of them obviously, there are 100 members who did that even after the violent insurrection. so there is a lot of work to be done. we can't do all of them. we can't oppose all of them. but in addition to opposing people, i think it's absolutely critical that we support those who are doing the right thing.

you know, ten members of the house republicans stood to impeach the president, which shouldn't have been a tough call. i know there are many other republicans who wanted to do it but they were afraid of their base or safety, which i don't think is a sufficient excuse, but those concerns are real, who did not step forward to impeach the president. but those who are doing the right thing need to be defended. think of adam kinzinger or liz cheney and others. we need to stand with them as principled republicans. we need to back these leaders up. they made hard decisions that put them at risk politically and physically, and i think we need to be there for them as we continue to support other members of congress who are doing the right thing, democrats and a handful of independents. we ought to, you know, we need to be there for them, to support

them. not only removing those who have taken steps to damage the republic, but those who have taken a principaled stand to report it. >> okay. let's get to calls. jack, a republican, you are up first. >> yeah, thanks. you know, when you look at the fairness of it all, americans are basically fair people. and when they feel that the rules are being changed in the middle of the game or that something is not clear or that the rules are favoring one side or the other, that's a double standard. and that's what you have out there. >> jack, are you talking about the election? >> yes. i'm talking about the election. and that's why people are upset. everybody saw that there was a double standard. no one is saying trump won by a landslide. but we're saying that there were issues. >> yes. you're saying there are issues. >> there were issues, and those

issues had to be explained. and a lot of americans feel those issues were never clearly explained. okay? and the guys in the senate, they have a right to bring up those issues. no one is saying they're going to overturn the election. and the impeachment process has been perverted by pelosi. holding it the first time for two weeks, sending it over. they're all a bunch of angry, old democrats. >> jack, we'll take your points about the election. evan mcmullen, how do you respond? >> well, there is someone saying that donald trump won by a landslide. he says he won by a landslide. and, you know, some republicans who support the president are -- you know, they have been told by the president, by the former president and by others, by his allies, that the election was stolen and that there were problems with it that simply didn't exist. and they believe that.

and i think we just heard that from jack. i mean, look, republicans have been subjected to four years of essentially state tv on fox news and on oan and other outlets, and they have been misled by their own leaders. and they've been the targets of foreign disinformation, and it's not hard to imagine how someone like jack could be misled by all of that, and people do want fairness. i agree with jack that americans, they want fairness. generally americans are good and fair. i believe that as well. but if you have been subjected to lies for four and a half, five years that leads you to believe an that election has been stolen from a candidate you prefer and the former president cast doubt on the election before it even happened and certainly afterwards, then

you're going to believe the kinds of things that we just heard from jack. now, the simple reality is that the election was reviewed by courts across the country, by election officials on both parties, and there were not irregularities. jack mentioned the changes of the rules. those rules were put in place in processes that, you know, were established and were legitimate and also republicans gained seats in the house. so if you are going to cast doubt on president trump or on president biden's victory, then i would ask jack and others if i had the opportunity then what do you say about the fact that republicans gained seats in the house during that same election? and so you can't have it both ways. but i think that's the kind of critical thinking that isn't happening enough on the right these days unfortunately. >> david in san diego, republican as well. hi, david. >> hi, good morning.

thanks for taking my call. love the program. i appreciate you giving us a voice. so, yeah, i understand. i voted for obama twice back and i was a democrat most of my life. i switched to independent back and forth over the years. then just recent voted for trump because of the policies. the man is definitely flawed. he has some problems, but he's bringing a lot of good points that the establishment, and that's where i want to go for this, has created this mess, quite frankly. the guys that were talking before with their backs against the wall were called racist all the time. and the establishment created this mess for power and, quite frankly, on both sides. that's why now we're basically left grasping for straws in an

election if we see an independent or somebody talking not flowery talk, just plain talk, we tend to gravitate more towards that. that's kind of where i'm at. >> evan mcmullen. >> look, i think what you just heard was important, you know. there is a lot of dissatisfaction out there. there is a lot of distrust. it comes from a lot of sources, and there are a lot of reasons for it. there are a lot of people sewing seeds of distrust in the american mind about -- about -- about the government. but i will also say that the republican and the democratic party have to start to deliver solutions to the american people. i think the gridlock and dysfunction that you have seen in washington in modern history has left a lot of people feeling very frustrated about their

government. and that's why i think it's so important after the last four years that this administration, the biden administration make an effort to and successfully govern in a way that unifying most of the country and delivers actual solutions to the country. look, i'm somebody these days that i don't look as much at our political situation as republicans versus democrats. i more see it as a fight for american democracy versus an authoritarian movement against it. and joe biden was elected with a coalition with republicans, democrats and independents. i call that coalition the american democracy movement. and that democracy movement, now that it is in power, it is a broad coalition of unlikely partners, but it must now

govern. it must now deliver results to the american people in this time of such great need. and then i hope we'll hear people like the last caller say that, okay, things have changed. things are getting done. things are moving forward. and that will be a wonderful thing for the republic. so that's what i'm hopeful will happen. it needs to happen in the next four years because i think that this authoritarian movement in the united states that wants to overturn elections with violence and lies and that would like to move away from democracy, we're not done. we're not -- you know, we haven't resolved that issue yet. we're likely to see that again in 2022. we're likely to see it again in 2024. it's quite possible that many leading contenders in 2024 for the republican nomination will not be as committed to american

democracy as they need to be. and so we're not out of the woods yet. but the next four years are critical for showing that democracy works. you know, we don't have to all be united on everything. we should have healthy debate. president biden and his administration are not going to convince all republican senators to come along with every initiative. but my hope is that there will be a group, however small it is, of republican senators who can work with and members of congress, members of the house who can work with the biden administration and the biden administration with them to find solutions that can win bipartisan support. again, not everyone. that's not going to be possible. but cross partisan, bipartisan support so that we can move the country forward in the most moving way possible. >> let's go to linda, democrat caller. >> yes. i don't know what's happened to

the republican party. i grew up in a very staunch republican family, and most of my relatives are still that way. i mean, to the point where, you know, as i got more educated, my mother asked me about how i voted in elections and i told her that i voted for a democrat and she didn't talk to me for two weeks. but the person i voted for was someone who -- i was a teacher. he had also been a teacher, and he was standing up for what i believed in. and it wasn't even until later that i realized that not all the -- that where i grew up is also very racist. and i didn't realize it for the longest time. well, now i see that what's

happening is like it's the -- the sleepy little giant has been awakened. i don't know how many people knew anything about trump other than he was a personality with a lot of money who was now a republican. >> linda, what is the sleeping giant? what is that? >> the sleeping giant is the racism. >> okay. evan mcmullen? >> well, i join linda in looking at the republican party now and not recognizing it, at least not recognizing it for, you know, as it compares to the aspirations that i have had for it as someone who is affiliated with the republican party exclusively until 2016. you know, it's tough. you know, i think that there has long been an extremist wing of the republican party. look, i will say that we're a

two party system. and in any two party system you are going to have extremes on both ends of the political spectrum, and that's something that both parties have to deal with. in the republican party we ignored that. we brought it into the party decades ago, and we ignored it. we tried to -- i say "we" collectively, not me personally. but the party mostly ignored the extremist wing of itself and tried to minimize it as much as possible and at times our leaders signalled to it, but tried not to do that too much. any amount was a mistake. but what happened over time was that that extremist wing grew. and in 2016 it found a leader or a leader found it and able to

move through the primaries with the plurality of support, not a majority of support. he didn't win a majority of votes in the 2016 primary and he moved through the early states with a plurality, a lower purlty or a weaker plurality. nevertheless, he was able to then ultimately prevail. and leadership really, really matters. leaders, especially a president, especially a party nominee have enormous influence over the views of the people who follow them or who may follow them. and so now that extremist wing of the republican party has grown and it now controls the party. that doesn't mean it controls everything the party does, but it controls the direction of the party. and how we're going to reverse that is going to also require

leadership. but the problem is that our leaders -- i say "our" as americans. the leaders in the republican party, they are not interested in actually leading. they are interested in staying in office and merely reflecting what the base wants. but at some point, and i wish it would have been five years ago, the leaders -- the party is going to need leaders to stand up and say, you know, this isn't right. and this is what truth is. and some of them may lose their seats. some of them may not. they may lose voters, and therefore, you know, majorities in the house or the senate. they may lose presidential elections without this coalition that includes the extremist wing of the party. but what it does is it creates an opportunity for the party to have a rebirth, for the party to compete for all americans votes, and that's the kind of tough decision, tough leadership that's actually needed in the party.

now, i don't -- it may be too late for that. i don't know. i hope that it isn't because if it is too late then that spells a bigger challenge for the country. but there is certainly a lot of room for p piz miss m. but there will not be a new party with new leadership, and that's what's required to protect our country and the party itself from this extremist wing. >> who could lead that? is there someone you have in mind? >> i think it needs to be more than just one person, you know? i think certainly those who were standing on principal in congress are a start. you know, mitt romney, liz cheney, adam kinzinger.

and there are others. and there are others who have not yet run for office, who are considering it, who may run in '22. principaled republicans and conservatives who may step forward to offer a different vision for the country and the party, a different vision. that may happen. but i think something that's important that also needs to occur is that, you know, the capacities that have been developed under the pressures of the last four years among the principaled and former republicans who have fought to defend the republic, those need to be directed and used for another purpose, for the next phase in this fight. and i believe they will be. there are discussions happening between us and between principaled republicans in congress about the next steps and about how we might be able to, working together, ok you pi an important position in american politics in the chambers of congress in which we

can again, you know, position between the parties help the parties and help, for example, leaders in the white house, the president, president biden and others reach unifying or find unifying solutions to the major challenges facing the country. you look at the five senators, for example, who voted to have the impeachment trial, the five republican senators. that's a good start in the senate. those senators, mitt romney, susan collins, lisa murkowski, senator portman and senator sasse, they have an opportunity to help lead the country forward. they have tremendous power and influence given that they're acting on principle and can really be the majority makers. for example, in arizona, they have tremendous power to lead this country forward in a unifying way. and i think they realize that.

and i think others, mark kelly in arizona as well and tremendously optimistic about the leadership may offer. there is opportunity for those senators and for a contingent of members of the house, those republicans who voted to convict the president are a good start. there are others. and then democrats, for example, who are unifying, who want to bring people together across party lines and who have fought the hard fights to do that and put themselves at risk in order to do that. what we need to do on the outside now, those of us who built these routes in the disaffected and principled republican space over the last four years, we need to marry those capacities up to support those leaders and that kind of leadership. i think that's a way that even though our numbers, although growing are still small, again,

positioned between the two parties, that's a way we can continue to have outside influence. >> bob, danville, pennsylvania, republican. >> thank you for taking my call. i have to commend you with your grace on some of these questions and what you do and it's great to listen to people who call in from all the country and listen to all these opinions. it's wonderful. i hope i can get my points across eloquently enough to make sense. mr. mcmullen ran as an independent. and i think his idea was, well, he's in the middle so we'll get the middle. he'll get the people who are moderates on both sides, which makes a lot of sense. but think about president trump when he ran. and when he became president. look at the enthusiasm that he had. and if you want to take away his rhetoric, the things that he said and just what he

accomplished was tremendous. the unemployment, the america first, the jobs, everything was wonderful. but what a person says and what they do are different things. and it is more important what they do than what they say. and i have said in the beginning in discussions with my family. i said, you know, the rhetoric that he has is going to cause a coursening of this course in this country. i really was strongly against some of the things that he said. but he brought people to think about patriotism, about our country, about it's potential, about its incredible influence in the world. it is a beacon of light. and that's why he was so strong. that's why people felt so strongly about him. you know, the republican -- the republicans did not and are still not putting out what the

republican party stands for. you know, individual rights, individual responsibility. and what i see is that on the liberal side, you know, they want to keep -- to keep people in boxes. they put them -- they say that we're white americans. we're black americans. we're hispanic americans. we're all americans. they have to have the rhetoric. they have to put it out there that we are all americans. we are not in boxes. if they want to put us in boxes, we're going to have divisions. >> okay. evan mcmillen, how do you respond? >> i couldn't agree more with that latter point, that our leaders need to stop working to divide us. there are politicians in this country now, too many of them that use division as a political strategy. and it's -- you know, it seems that the days of, you know, running a reasonable primary campaign -- >> we take you n