of new york city's greenwich village and its influence in american society and culture. watch tonight beginning at 8:00 p.m. eastern. and enjoy american history tv every weekend on c-span3. coming up at 10:30 eastern today the federal communications commission will old an open commission meeting. items on the agenda including emergency broadband and expanding access to telehealth. you can watch live coverage on c-span3 or online at cspan.org or listen with the free cspan app. >> good morning to you, thanks for joining us. >> good morning, pedro, thanks for having me. >> first about your organization, can you explain and the perspective you take particularly when it comes to small businesses? >> absolutely. we represent 30 million small business owners out there that really employ about 60 million hard-working americans that was

pre-covid and prelockdowns. it is from all industries from all different demographics and all different political preferences. it is just about small businesses. the backbone of our country. it's the backbone of our communities. and right now they're really suffering, pedro, and that's the biggest concern especially as we talk about the $15 minimum wage and little bit like handing an anchor to a drowning man. this is the absolute worst time to have these discussions and even if we look at bernie sanders' plan of a five-year rollout. in june of 2021, which is part of his plan, it goes from 7.25 to 9.50 which is a 31% increase in just a matter of month. our small businesses are already dying. look what's happening in new york city, in california. they're barely surviving and we are on the brink of seeing a massive collapse of our small business community and our industry and that is not going to help our economy. >> but what is the current aspect of the economy for those who make the minimum wage and what would you say to those

people making that wage currently of $7.50. why shouldn't it be increased. >> the conversation with those people with the keystone pipeline cancellation. these things can be fixed if you look at the actual problem of $15 for entry level positions. those are never intended to be the wages for those types of positions. those positions are for the youth, for example, for those folks who are in those positions that are, let's say have been there for a while, we need to talk about a broader education or skills assistance for these folks. so that we can do that. and i can guarantee when you look at germany, for example, they have done a tremendous job with apprenticeships. we have to look at ways to help them through skills training to help them increase their output and increase what their actual worth is. that is the biggest problem here. we're trying to fix this problem with a completely wrong solution. we have to give them the skill sets to be able to earn greater

wages. if you mandate that $15 minimum wage on these entry level jobs, guess what, technology is going to take over. 2.7 million jobs are at risk and i read through that entire report and basically glazed over the technology issue. i can guarantee you that with technology coming down and the wage increase we're talking about, that inflection point we're going to hit and you're going to see technology take over these entry-level jobs. >> we have a comment from economist at the economic policy institute ben zipper who talked about the cbo and the minimum wage increase and assessed this saying when it comes to looking at the numbers you referenced what happens is, yes, when you raise the minimum wage and employers hire a few low-wage workers, that is correct. on the other hand the factor that is off setting is that even though employers are hiring fewer workers, fewer workers are leaving their jobs. how would you respond to that? >> where you look at where we are as an economy, we are still 10 million jobs short of where we were in february of 2020. that includes over 4 million

people that left the labor force. a lot of those folks, by the way, who are out of jobs right now are women. they have been hit extremely hard especially because of the school shutdowns. so, again from an economy standpoint, this is not a one size fits all solution. within the covid-19 relief bill currently being discussed a great and powerful idea that we support which is enhancing the tax credit. it's wonky and that's why americans don't use it. we like calling it the working americans credit because we think that is a fantastic way of addressing the lower wage earners without sacrificing our smaller businesses. >> we have another perspective to share with you from john yarmouth he talked about the relief effort to pass it and economic recovery and that low interest rates would also implode for deficit spending in this process. we'll get his thoughts and get your perspective on it.

>> past crises have made it clear that doing too little will cost us far more. weak support will lead to a weak, prolonged and k-shaped recovery posing more severe risk to our economic and budget outlooks than any deficits we might incur. without the american rescue plan, cbo estimates it will take at least three years before employment turns to prepandemic levels. but with this vital support, economists estimate that we can bring the economy back to near full employment in a little over 12 months. we have the plan and the ability to do this. and thankfully we can also afford to do it. interest rates and inflation are at historic lows. lower today than even before the pandemic. and the return on smart investments in the economy have never been higher. economists are telling us, begging us to use the fiscal space we have. they are warning that if we don't go big, we will be responsible for a long, painful

and unequal recovery. >> mr. ortiz, what would be your reaction to that? >> well, it's always easy to spend other people's money is the point. we have spent, if you look at this latest bill, a total of almost $6 trillion, 150% basically of our gdp output. that's plenty of spending and almost my understanding is almost a trillion dollars that hasn't been spent from the last relief bill. something called inflation and i know the democrats are pushing this theory of modern monetary theory which i know janet yellen also supports and no surprise she is our treasury secretary and because of this idea of low interest rates you can just basically borrow unlimited levels. that's what happened in socialist countries like venezuela and that could happen to us if we keep on using debt spending to finance every single socialist wish list agenda item. >> the efforts of small business particularly with the biden administration in power with alfredo ortiz and you can call

and ask him questions. independents 202-704-8802. if you're a small business owner and want to give perspective there 202-704-2803. let's start with isaac in lexington park, maryland. you're on with our guest, go ahead. >> thank you. thank you for taking my call. i realized that i was understanding why we were in this mess in the first place dealing. just to be clear, are we still -- >> we moved to a new topic. >> okay. well then let me go ahead and let another caller come in because i was calling about that. >> we'll take it up in the last half hour, isaac, so if you want to give us a call and try again. democrats line, go ahead. >> caller: yes, good morning.

as far as i agree that people can't live on the present minimum wage. but the minimum wage is like corporate welfare. because people making that has to realize on social safety net, government food stamps, et cetera. the taxpayer taking up the slack and technology is going to take over regardless. the minimum wage is going to affect that. technology rollbacks is going to continue but it will cause inflation but we're already seeing that. the way the stock market is inflated, as crazy as it may seem, one of the goals is inflation which is going to hurt everybody in the long run.

you already see it in the record highs every day on the stock market. done a great job of making the rich richer. but when it comes to the guy that is working two or three jobs to keep his head above water, republicans always touch their pearls and say, oh, my gosh, what about the deficit? >> okay, brent. thanks for the call. mr. ortiz, go ahead. >> yeah, well, i think his point there is really, i can see where he's coming from, right. there is going to be a technology hit. i think i mentioned that. there is an inflection point. if you remember where we were just ten years ago with, you know, plasma screens and all that, thousands of dollars. right now they're literally hundreds of dollars. if you'll look, for example, at mcdonald's in arlington, virginia, they replaced the cashiers with kiosks. they only have two people working now to give the food out and ultimately a point where the

people are going to be making the actual food behind the scenes, they're going to be replaced, as well. look what doordash just invested in. the reality is we have to keep these training wages where they are. let's go ahead and bring them up a little if we need to, but we have to remember what those wages are for. they are for entry level positions and entry level jobs. they're training wages. if there are people who have been there for long term, pedro, that's a bigger issue and we have to identify them and give them the skills that they need. what i don't understand is why we're so busy trying to raise floors when we should be raising ceilings. let's not fight for $15, fight for $50,000 per year jobs and get those people who have no fault of their own stuck at the minimum wage jobs and entry-level jobs and give them the skills that they want and they need to be able to be whatever they want to be, right. but we don't need to mandate these federally mandated wages to make this happen. >> mr. ortiz a story in "wall

street journal" as part of building public support on his plan on the $15 front that could be an aspect of it, mr. biden is going to meet with leaders from jpmorgan chase and walmart -- >> those sound like small businesses. >> the business roundtable pushed back against that saying reflect where people live. to that aspect, wouldn't a pay raise depending on location and geographic location, isn't that something to be considered? >> i would consider that over a federal mandated wage. we have half the states already that have already implemented, you know, wage increases that are above the 15 or at the $15 already. but that's applicable to their state, right. for example, new york versus west virginia. a reason why senator m mansion d in terms of the median wages. an increase of $15 an hour would

decimate his state. we just have to do it, i think, if we do this, let's look at it state by state and at least allow that flexibility. because even within industries, pedro, there's differences. look at the profit margin of amazon versus profit margin of a restaurant. a restaurant is about 1% to 3%. it's apples and oranges. >> a viewer, jason, from kansas saying this and directing this to you saying you can bet that mr. ortiz is not supportive of union jobs. if an employer can't manage $9, . >> i talk to small businesses all the time. i come, my dad was a tailor, my mom was a housekeeper. she used to clean toilets and i used to clean with them. i am taken aback by that comment. it's not that i'm against union

wages take nothing into account of the realities of running a business. i ran a small business and i know what it is like to sign the back of a check and quite frankly the front of a check. from that perspective, we need to be sensitive to the small business owners. two-thirds of new job growth was in the hands of small businesses. over half of our economy in terms of half the jobs are in the hands of the small businesses. if you want to go ahead and start decimating our economies, the way we are with the lockdowns and teachers refusing to go back to schools because now parents can't go back to schools. this is how we can decimate our economy by decimating our small businesses. i stand up for our small businesses every day. >> in the spirit of the last part of that statement, what defines a small business in your mind? >> look, anything from a sole proprietor and our sweet spot is about 65 to maybe 100 employees. anything above that, quite frankly, they're doing pretty well on their own. they have their own cpas and lawyers and they have opportunities to probably engage

in some kind of, you know, political lobbying and stuff like that. we really try to represent the smallest of the small on small businesses. and so from that perspective, you know, we're proud of the work. we represent that pizza owner down the street, the dry cleaner, the hairdresser and the yoga instructor and the fitness instructors, right. we represent all that, like i said, 23 million sole proprietors and the roughly 7 million have employees with only about, you know, the top richest small businesses are probably about 100,000 of them. frankly, they don't need our representation and they don't need our help because they're doing just fine at their own at this point. >> let's hear from mike from new jersey. he's calling in on our line for democrats. mike, go ahead. >> caller: good morning, mr. ortiz. thank you for taking my call, c-span. you do an outstanding job. mr. ortiz, in the beginning of the conversation first of all the teachers have the reasons of

why not going back to school. that's another argument for another day. the $15 minimum wage in the beginning, here is a $15 minimum wage, you're going to increase companies to go to automation. that's going to happen no matter what. that's not a good argument. the other point is, is that you're talking, you can make the argument in certain areas that the $15 minimum wage may not work and certain areas it may work but as far as children or young people going into the job and maybe they could adjust but the $15 an hour wage is not a starting, it was originally started at the minimum wage as a starting wage, but turned into a regular wage and a lot of areas for certain parts of labor. and i think the $15 an hour wage shouldn't be turned, put in with the stimulus package that is being made now but definitely something that this country has to look in to. $7 plus is not going to cut it. thank you for taking my call. >> that's mike in new jersey.

mr. ortiz, go ahead. >> yeah, mike, i'll start with the last part of your question there. and i agree, i think it should not be included in the covid relief bill that is being discussed. i do think it is an important topic to be discussed. i like, like i had mentioned the earned income tax credit as a possible solution to addressing the problem because, quite frankly, mike you and i are in agreement that we have to make sure we have to address those folks that are making that entry-level wage who have been there for a while. who have been more than six months and more than in those jobs for more than a year or two years or three years. that's a broader systemic issue that we need to address and that's the biggest concern. and in terms of the automation point that you're making, you're absolutely right. it is going to be happening just that the pace in which it's going to happen gets accelerated when you have these kind of federally mandated wages so that inflection point which may have been three, four, five years down the road all of a sudden is moved by a couple years or three

years further and closer to us because that automation just also continues to go down in terms of cost and price. >> mr. ortiz, one of the elements of the american rescue plan would include expanding paid sick leave forworkers. what do you think of that proposal? >> if we look at it as a true short-term covid issue i understand why it's needed. but we need to look at and look at all the other aspects of social programs that are out there that have already been voted on where their money is already in play. and, again, i keep coming back to the earned income tax credit. it's a very efficient and effective plan and i like the idea of expanding that. it has some problems. i think with some tweaks, though, we could use that and leverage something that is already in place. we don't have to put a lot of bureaucracy in place to get that done. we have to let americans understand that is applicable to them and give the proper support without killing our small businesses. again, the backbone of our community. 30 million small businesses. i saw a report yesterday that

said potential that a third of those businesses may not make it to may. how are we going to take care of 10 million small businesses that employ people, you know, if they're not in business. how are we going to take care of those folks? by adding a $15 minimum wage, even though it gets phased in five years, a 30% increase by june of this according to bernie sanders' plan. >> when it comes to sick leave then, could an argument be made if you offer sick leave it keeps a workforce in place and that keeps the employer over the long run? >> as long as we don't create a situation like we did with the unemployment checks where you created an incentive to actually stay home. we can't keep, you know, craving these incentives where people make more money by staying home than they do working. this was a real serious issue that our small business owners were very loud about, but nobody heard that said this is going to be an issue to bring workers back and it really was and it was very difficult for our small

business owners. again, i'm talking, i'm not talking, you know, an amazon-type business. i'm talking that pizza guy down the street. you know, the hair salons. it was very, very difficult for them to bring back their workers. >> from washington state, independent line, this is pam for our guests. go ahead, please. >> caller: yeah, so up in redmond, washington, if you go into those communities you'll see a lot of immigrant workers from asia. so, that is one issue. two is our vocational training in high schools here in america. completely gone away. three for technology taking over small businesses, how do we bring back those manufacturing to american people that are not getting the jobs in bellevue and redmond? technology is definitely taking over. but when you drive through small

towns in america like olympia, washington, salem, oregon, you see boarded up stores. those stores were started because of the housing crisis in 2008. people who had to create a way to make money. and now those jobs are gone. so, our vocational training has been completely swiped out of our high school education. so, where as a small business proponent, do you play an active role in bringing manufacturing back to this country? >> yeah, those are great questions. the vocational training. i go back to we're big believers in that. we have a program called, again, the fight for 50 which is the fight for $50,000 per year jobs. we're talking journeymen, electricians, plumbers, stuff like that. entry level jobs there are in the $50,000 plus range. i'm not quite sure if any listeners are from new york but i'll tell you right now

impossible to find an electrician or plumber or anyone across the country caller's poi. vocational training is basically stripped out of our schools. we have to bring that back. made uncool at one point under the obama administration. nothing uncool about the vocational jobs. we do have to bring those back. in terms of what are small businesses doing to try to bring some of the business back, quite frankly, we're proposing that as we do some of this onshoring of, you know, of business and especially with the ppp, the protection equipment that people are talking about in pharmaceuticals and when we're bringing the stuff back from china and the u.s. back from manufacturing here. let's give small businesses a disproportionate opportunity to some of that business. let's set it up to be able to give these poor businesses that quite frankly out of no fault of their own through this pandemic have lost everything that they own and the