nathaniel philbrick talks about his book whaleship ethics, sinking and aftermath.

the nantucket historical association, hosted this event and provided the video. >> good evening, and welcome to the nantucket wailing museum. the entire historical so she shun is pleased to bring you our socially distance, commemoration of the 200th anniversary of the whale ship ethics tragedy. we are thrilled to be this evening, in conversation with nathaniel philbrick, longtime island are here. he and his wife arrived in nantucket, in 1986. and have lived here, ever since. and he is a historian, and has written numerous books about the island. in year 2000, published in the heart of the sea.

a book about the essex tragedy, that one the book award in 2004 nonfiction. he has gone on to write a number of books, a very good book about the u.s. exploring expedition. looking at the mayflower. a whole variety of other interesting topics. wrenching off from nantucket, this is a sea bass for all of the history work that he is done. we are thrilled everybody can join us this evening. the story of the essex tragedy is a near and dear story to nantucket, and to our identity as a whaling port. and this is a unique place to be able to tell the story. we preserve the history of nantucket for the people of nantucket, and we have lots of collections related to the story, and it is in our bones as it were.

so we are really thrilled, to be able to have all of you join us this evening for a conversation about the essex. >> i second that and mike it's good to be in conversation with you. there is no one who knows nantucket history like you do. >> thank you. >> so the basic thing you know we are here to talk about the essex, and the question of the evening that we should start with, in case anybody may not know, what are the basic things that everybody should know about the ethics tragedy? >> while the essex left nantucket, in the summer of 1819. the year after the pacific national bank was built. she was a typical whale ship, about 20 years old, not in great repair, she had a first time captain, george paul lured union. first nate, 21 men. the cabin boy was thomas

nicholson. they departed and headed for the pacific. it was a normal willing voyage. not a successful one, as they made their way around cape horn, up the west coast of south america, and they decided to venture out farther into the pacific, then the essex had ever been before. and they were after they had stopped at the galapagos, and they were 3000 miles of the coast of south america, when they cited a huge sperm whale. 85 feet long. this is a huge whale. if you know the huge jaw, here the whaling museum, that reputedly came from an 85 foot whale. especially when you think the ship was 85 feet long. so one of the whale boats, was damaged. so first mate owen chase, he

dragged the vote up on the essex, and we're repairing it, while the two other whaling boats were off pursuing wales. so the cabin boy, all of 15 years old, he was at the helm steering. when this huge, 85 foot sperm whale appeared almost on the report side. he didn't think much of it, because never before in the history of american whaling, had a whale attack to ship. but this whale, had a different intention. and he picked up speed, slammed into the side of the ship, knock the meant to their side, and came back at it again. driving the ship backwards, crushed the bow like an eggshell. the ship did not sink, but it filled up with water, and the men would take to the rowboats, and they would all gather, and captain paul hurd, would eventually arrive and say to mr. chase, because they were

over the rise in, they had not seen would have happened. and he said mr. chase what is the matter? and these were men a few words. we chase simply said, we have been hit by a whale. so if you don't know about the ethics, you are probably familiar with will be dick. this would inspire the climax of that great american novel. but where movie dick ends, is just the beginning of the essex disaster. it would turn into a survivor survival tale like none others. fear of animals in the west pacific, and would lead to that, and they decided to go for self-america. 3000 miles away. as and a possible voyage, in the great are any, they would be forced into cannibalism, and

only two of the three whale boats, would be cited by rescue craft. five nantucket are's would get out of those will boats alive. three others are left on henderson island. and when news came to nantucket, and the rest of the country, this was big news. this was before the american west had become the predominant wilderness, that incited the american magic nation. the sea was the wilderness. this was the place before the all unfolded. and there was an account of it, that would become renowned around the country, and the world. this was big news. so the essex, this was a tale that people from nantucket were not really proud of. it was a voyage that went bad. but it was a story with all sorts of fascination, for those

outside of nantucket as well. so this was a story, i realized that i needed to write about. >> and interesting things there in this disaster, that come to mind as you are retelling it. on the one hand, this part of the pacific that they were willing in, the offshore ground, had only been discovered by american whalers a year or two before, as being a place rich with sperm whales. this was not really a part of the ocean, that the crew of the ethics, or other people had been to. they didn't know very well. there were more comfortable on the coast of south america. but there was money to be made, and the ventured out. on the one hand, they were in the unknown. taking risks. but here they are, cast into their boats, with their shipwrecked. and, imagine us, being cast into a vote, in the middle of the pacific.

you are a sailor, you might be able to do some of the great stuff with that, but i would be at my weekend. >> i'm with you. >> but here are professional sailors, who are able to salvage things from the wreck, they can rid the rolling boats, to sail. there you know they have all these professional skills, to actually save themselves. and the, great irony or tragedy of this by the way, is that they are matched by the circumstances. they made the decision not to go to the nearest islands. they have her they are cannibals there. then a reflection perhaps of maybe something slightly provincial about nantucket or, limitation of their knowledge, you know but they know south america. so that is where they go. it just happens to be that they are sailing against the winds for thousands of miles, and there have enough water and food, and this does not work

very well. >> well you know, i thought long and hard, and i tried to examine my research. how did they do this? or were they thinking? and you know, this is a story of survival. and when you are in a survival situation, it is very hard to think rationally. and the fears they all had, where the unknown pacific. it was early pacific whaling. the only thing they knew about the silence, were that there were some cannibals. and the people from nantucket were very adventuresome. when it came to the exploration of the world. but they were also very conservative. they built their knowledge, incrementally. unless they could hear it from someone they knew, they did not trust it they didn't trust that information. so the one thing they did know, was the sea, well boats and

will ships. and so, when forced to it just as you described, here's a will boat right here. this vote is from a leader era. it's much larger than the essex will boats were. they were only 25 feet long. they built up their size, so a large wave wouldn't necessarily let it. and these boats were not yet equipped with sales. but they rigged up their own sales. and they turn them into scooters. and off they went. finally falling into the only thing that they knew. get back to a civilized coast. so for me the story of the essex is a tale of human survival. and as you alluded to, these guys had tremendous skills, but ultimately it would be nature that would call the shots, in what they would endure in the weeks and months ahead.

>> absolutely and you know the irony that we see in the story now as modern observers, is that they don't want to go to certain islands because they're afraid of cannibalism, but they have to resort to that in the votes. they were in these polls for three months. three months in an open boat. that is an entire summer. and you are etsy, and so they were in the galápagos islands you know at that point, in the history of whaling, it is common to round up the tortoises. these huge creatures that could be over 100 pounds. and store them, like wood. instex of wood in the hole. and they would, you don't these galapagos vortices, candid for months, even long as a year without any food or water. and provide a crew with wonderful meat. so in this whale attack their ship, they had all these

galapagos tortoises. so they put two of those tortoises in each whale boat, and they had some bread. some water, and that was a key. didn't have a lot of water. and off they went. and for me, the closest i could get to getting my head imaginatively around what they were going through, what you think in terms of science fiction. you know this is like a spaceship, blown up and you're in your escape odd, in the middle of the universe and the pacific was space for them. and here they were out there, just doing their best. just doing their best to get back home. >> and hoping you know they know there are other ships out there, british ships, american ships, you know they're hoping maybe they will pass one. but imagine, sailing in an area about the size of texas, and hoping you are going to pass one of the 60 or 70 other will

ships that are out there. and, luck or not luck, they did not pass any. >> no they felt that if, everything went right, if the winds worked perfectly, they might be able to get to the coast of south america, in a month and a half. and their provisions would last that. of course not everything would go wrong, they would hope that someone would discover them. that could have happened. but they began to run out of water, they were dying of dehydration. when they cite an island, an island they were not aware of, they misnamed it, we called it -- island and it was actually henderson island. so just as they are on the verge of death, they sail up to the silent, and there is no water. they cannot find any water. until luckily, it's a spring

high and low tide, and low tide, bubbling from iraq, that is usually submerged, was freshwater. this is positively biblical. and it saves them for now. and as you know they would realize, and this is almost a metaphor for the human race on this planet. because within just a couple of days, a couple of weeks they realized that they are killing off all of the wildlife that they could sustain themselves with. and if they safer any significant amount of time they will ultimately starve. so they decide, we have to push on. and it is then, where three men, as someone from cape cod, one was an englishman, and they realized that this is as a host group of people from nantucket, so they decided they would say

on dry land. and it was a very emotional parking. and ultimately they would be rescued. because the survivors, would send a rescue ship there. but another great irony, it turned out that as rock, from which this rock from where water would bubble up, as the tide moved on, from spring low, it would never again come above the tide line. so they began to die of dehydration. so they barely made, they were on the verge of death when they were rescued. but once again, it is a story of incredible human endurance. full of all sorts of ins and outs, and it's a story that really captures the imagination. >> and it's interesting, i was asked once by somebody, you know a few these people they

survive, they go through this horrible ordeal, they come home what is the importance of this? what is the lasting impact of their tragedy? we think now of airplane disasters, or a variety of modern calamities that bring about changes in legislation, in safety, the titanic disaster, very faithful famous example of change. and somebody asked me, what does this do for whaling? >> not much. nantucket are's, and this had never happened before, and it seemed to them as it was just a random act and as captain polar would say he would be given a ship and he would depart within months of coming back to nantucket. and nobody faulted him or any of the crew and as he would say

to a young naval officer that he met off the south coast of south america. the nail naval officer, he had just read the story of the essex. and he said you are not captain hollered of the essex are you? and he said yes i am. he said how could you ever go out there again? and he said well in nantucket we have a saying that lightning never hits twice. and for paul lured it would off of hawaii in the storm, they end up on the scholes, and the ship would be beaten to death on the scholes, and end up onshore. and it was windy when this happened this is. and they said they had to drag paul urge off the deck, he did not want to get back into a whale boat under the circumstances. but as paul lured, would say to

a missionary who he would meet on his turn return to and tuck it. and he met them on the pacific islands. and that was one of the places they decided not to go to because a fear of cannibalism. he said to the missionary, back home i will be judged a lucky man. and yes that was right, he would never go to see again. and he would live out his life as a night watchman. >> you've alluded to a couple of written sources for the story. and as a historian, wanting to tell these stories we rely on the evidence if you want to tell them from the past, you know and it's interesting that there are two really compelling, firsthand accounts, about survivors. then there are a variety of the second hand accounts. like the missionary who met captain paul lured, and wrote down what he remembered captain

paul hurd saying. naval officer doing the same thing. and we would like to hear a bit about your and counter and when you're on the nantucket before you wrote the book and when you are looking more closely about at this. >> when i look back i don't see how you know i don't then realize how lucky i was. when i'm in this research center, and it has thomas nixon's account, that he wrote. and it's a newly-it was newly-discovered when i picked up the story and it's an extraordinary document. and it's the kind of book that you get at a stationary store today where he has written out his account of this. and he had even done wonderful

drawings of the event. so to hold that in your hand is extraordinary. the newspapers had just been recently micro filmed. there is the town building. but i have to say, one of the resources, that you guys had, was the genealogy that had just gone online. so it was possible, really for the first time to take to people and figure out how closely they were related. and i was very curious how closely related worthy nantucketters. and i did that to figure out how the related. and they were all related over and over again. and survival in survival situations, it is people and groups of people, that have a

pre-existing bond. weather is spiritual, cultural, that tend to make it out at a higher rate, than those who don't have those kinds of bonds. so, that probably helped with the fact that there were five nantucket survivors from the way about. but you have a thing is i spent time at the last remaining american wooden will ship. you have to sort of channel what it was like, to be in there when a whale attacked. and i went to the candle whaling museum. and that had its own wonderful museum. and it's now part of the bedford museum. so all of these provided no history. history is not what happened in the past, but it is what we tell using the evidence from

what came from the past. you don't know everything about what happened, you just have these artifacts from the past whether it's a journal or a letter or newspaper account. all of these kind of things, and you take that altogether and there was even a crew list here that they had. and you put this all together, and it's a historians job, then you try to tell the story as best we can, being truthful to what historical accounts you have. and inevitably, they disagree in some instances. and you have to make a judgment call. >> yes it's interesting and you know the nantucket historical association, holds quite a few of these things that you work from. and in 2015, a film version of this of your book, came out.

it was the big hollywood treatment, and it was inspired by your book. and here at the end h. a, we took the opportunity to reassess the essex tragedy, and do an exhibit about it. and we look at some of these artifacts and looked at these things and put them out on display and it was one of the first projects i worked on here the association and it's like we're going to do a show about the essex with oversaw from the ethics. so i thought liquid seal we have in terms of artifacts. and as i am fond of saying, the nha has all of the artifacts from the essex disaster. because when you look at, one way of looking at it, things that are actually from the ship. there is basically one. and it is this piece of twine.

>> it's the most heartbreaking artifact. >> totally totally. >> do you want to describe the point for us. >> yes this is a crew member, and it's this little framed this is piece of twine. and one of the crew members in the whale boats, he would take the fibers from sales, from his clothing, and create or we've a piece of twine out of it. and you often see the behavior in survival situations. that so much time is passing, and you are terrified all the time. what do you do under the circumstances? just to say sane? and some people take up the equivalent of a hobby. and in this instance, this young teaching this young teenager, was creating this piece of twine. and when he was pulled out of the whale boat, he still had that piece of twine with him. which clearly, it was important enough to him, and his family. eventually ended up here.

do you remember when you're acquired the you acquired it? >> it became part of the collection in 1914. benjamin lawrence the crew member who made it, kept it. and he gave it to alexander starbucks. a historian of nantucket, and of the whaling. and i don't know when it was gifted, but it ended up with star buck, and starbucks gave it to the nha in 1914. and it's as you describe. it's in an ivory frame, with a card, that says he was in the boat 93 days, and he worked on this piece of twine. it's a powerful artifact. and you know basically when you look at the boots the ships in all that's left is this piece of twine. >> very powerful. >> and you know we also have crew lists, and manuscripts, and you know previous voyages as well of the ethics. and there's work books that

have all the crew signatures, and there is you know the museum has a silver ladle. that was given to the previous captain of the ethics. at the end of the previous voyage. and they have been successful. he was giving a new command and ship. so the ship was regarded as of being a good want to be aboard. and we have artifacts that reflect that. i think another thing is with the association, it reflects the power of this kind of event in the imagination. is a trunk essentially. a small travel trunk, at a period, and it was fished out of the sea, and the story is that it was fetched out of the sea, near where the essex wrecked. and a man on one ship, who had it and had assembled it or sold it to a man on the other ship,

and this was on the essex. and he bought it and took it, and he lived in ohio, he retired it he retired and after the 1890s after this foundation was founded, his family gave the trunk to the nha. so this is from the ethics. it has always been displayed, as a trunk from the ethics. it does not have a single water stain on it. >> and they were in the boat for three months how would you know you know. nevertheless, it is one of those oral traditions, but it's an artifact. >> i listen to the ultimate thing about writing history. if you begin to you know i will always have, a huge respect for

the tenuous nurse, of the evidence and are biloxi to really understand what's actually happened. you can only, it's said that those who don't know history, will live to repeat it. unfortunately, we are all going to repeat history. no matter how well you know it. you are in the midst of your own time. we are all living that fog of reality. it's terrifying now, we don't know where we're going, that's the way how it works. with the crew of the essex or any time the past. history is great, you can look back and say this where was going. it all cause it was a simpler time and they do it they were doing. but no we have the luxury of looking back, and when you're in the middle of it you don't know. so when things like a trunk, floats into the collection. who knows how? they almost become, an artifact

of cultural memory of the ethics. even though it may not have actually been captain pollard his trunk. and this is skittishness own port and, because not only do you have the stuff that connects with laser directness to what happened, but you have evidence of how an island culture, responded to something like this. so it is endlessly fascinating. so it's something that the longer i am in this business, the more i begin to realize how lucky i was to have lived on nantucket, and have decided to tell it, and have all this incredible organization. >> thank you. >> yes thank you. >> our have fee were happy to

have such people coming use the resources. and you know you get great storytelling out of it. so this is the 200th anniversary of this disaster. it's the 20th anniversary, of your book about the disaster. and you've been speaking at a number of forums, about the book. other any favorite stories from the process of writing the book? >> well you know, actually one of them, and this was before the internet had really kicked in. so now you cool something, and you are led to it. but i was using a computer library, to get not only books, but academic articles. and so i was working with the anthony. which is our local library. i was working closely with them in our reference librarian.

and she would you know i was requesting a lot of things. at one point she called to say, some articles had come in. it was a saturday. and my wife had said she would pick them up. so she went up to the great hall, to the reference desk, and sharon looked weirdly into my life size and said is he okay. >> and she said yes you know he's okay but she looked at the pad to see what was in it, and the first article was, the caloric value of cannibalism. so that analyzing calories and nutrition. and so hence, sharon's concern. so for me this was a research

that took in the whole, you know everybody there were interesting traditions that i heard, when i was beginning to work on this. and everyone said had you heard the tradition about what happened to captain pollard when he came back to nantucket. and the story was, that captain paul hurd was with some friends, at the steps of the pacific national bank, when someone who had recently arrived on the ferry, came up and said i'm looking for someone named owen -- . do you know where i can find him? now owen was one of the people on the essex. and basically captain pollard reputedly said, no i hit him. so how is that as a tradition coming from the tuck it.

you know this is i don't know i have always had an interest in the dark side of history. i'm not so much interested in the great triumphs, and the inspiration, but i'm interested in kind of the, scary stuff. that is indexed to what happens to people in the toughest of times. so the darkness of the ethics story, had an immediate appeal. but i am a big stephen king fan, and all that kind of thing. but why didn't anticipate, was how much i would identify with the crew members during the writing of in the heart of the city. and what was amazing for me, is that once they got into the will boats, as i was writing it, they were in the whale boats in the winter of january in february, and that was the time

of year that i was writing this writing the book. and i had this fantasy, that i would finish that part of it you know on the day that they survived. but what i did intend dissipate, was how hard it was going to be to write about the situation. where when captain pollard spoke there was for them left. and they were all teenage nantucketters. they had all grown up with each other. and they're actually related. and they came to the point where they know that if they knew nothing, if they do nothing they will probably all die of starvation. but they would draw lots, and then execute the person who got the short straw. and if they consume that person's body, the rest bobby chance to live. can you imagine being in that situation? and when captain pollard

woodruff was rescued, and it would be him and another kid named -- he they would be in there will vote. and captain pollard would come on to the deck of the oil ship that rescued them, and that night i don't know how he did it, but he told the story of what happened. and it was recorded by captain paddock. i can imagine listening to this. this man who had been at sea for three months, a living skeleton. and rescinding how they drew lots, and how is much younger cousin, drew the short lot. and he said my boy nothing nobody is going to touch you if if you don't want to do this. and he said the young boy said no i take my chance like all the others. and they basically saw who was

going to execute the boy, and he would be dispatched as they said, and ultimately it would be the one thing, that would allow the others to survive. so this is tough stuff. and it was, a hard process. and one that i just feel such an enormous debt, to those people, the people who lived it. and hope that the book in some ways, does a proper tribute to them. >> yes it is interesting that you mentioned spending time at the charles w. morgan seaport. and also then being you know and there's nothing like being on the nantucket in the wind during winter, to inspire lots of thoughts. and it's interesting to see how melvyn you know to call this.

he reads, chases account. >> yeah by chases sun. he is channeling the gods here. and yes, melvyn reads this. and in his basically through the nantucket network, he got a copy of owen chases narrative. it was very rare by that point. and in his own copy, in the back of it, in writing on the same latitude as when the essex went down. i read this. and have a remarkable effect on me. and that's one of the biggest understatement in literary history. but that was not his only connection. >> no no, he had gone whaling, and melvyn was a collector. a collector of information. a collector of ideas.

filtering it through and then bringing it out. and as a young man, to read this evocative account, given these family connections, and you need to let that percolate, during the interview years. >> then he writes modi dick. in my mind the greatest american novel ever written. and unfortunately it was banned by the critics. and it really marked the end, of his literary career. but he kept writing. and when i first move to nantucket, i was excited, because i was going to the land of the -- . and it was a let down when i learned that melvyn had never visited nantucket before he wrote when we did. but he did visit summer after he wrote will be dick. can you imagine, melvyn

publishes his masterpiece, and it's completely neglected. visits nantucket, traveling with his father in law. i love my father-in-law, but not to go on a vacation with him. and then his father was the judge. and the state to what is now the jared coffin house. and living, kitty corner across the street, was none other than captain pollard. and, as novillo would write, and also right in the back of his copy of chases narrative. and he would write in green crown. because late in life is eyesight began to go. and that was a product of all of those years out on the sea. so his eyesight would go, and he would write on the back pages of his copy of chases

narrative. sometime in the 18 fifties, visited nantucket, and saw the home of captain pollard. to the islanders he was nobody, but for me he was the most remarkable man i ever met. i think, that melvyn, who is there at the beginning and the tailspin of his career, it saw in captain pollard somebody who had as it had experience the worst possible fate, for a seaman, and i think he saw on him a real kind of source of inspiration. how someone can survive when the worst happens. and no veil would return to that meeting, with captain pollard and in a long home, he would write about it. and which accounts a trip to the holy land, but he re-counts meeting a man who had lost a

ship, and that had been around by a whale. and meeting him in a fog. and the tendrils of the fog were wrapped around him like snakes. it has to be based on the circumstance of how he saw captain pollard. i think what is fascinating for me, is that yes will be dick was inspired by the story of the ethics, particularly the sinking of the ship, but it would be the captain captain of the ethics, who become a life long source of inspiration. formidable and for the years after he wrote muggy dick. >> yes i think that's very powerful, and we hear you know we talk a lot about the ships and the technology but really it's all about the people and we are about telling real stories from real people. and making their stories and their experiences come alive to the extent that we can. and i think it's a great

reminder of the effort that we put into doing that. and with captain pollard iran to the story that you are talking about doing your book tour in 2000. in the heart of the sea came out in may of 2000, can't believe it's 20 years ago. more than 20 years. and i went on this extensive book tour. my first book tour, it was a strange experience. and it was a wonderful experience. terrifying at the same time. and i was in st. louis. at left bank books still there, wonderful bookstore. and as i came to the bookstore there was a gentleman with a grocery bag holding it and clutching it. he looked at me as i walked by. i did not know it was going on. i gave him a look. he came up to me. he said i have something i want to show you. before he opened up the back he explained he had been on

nantucket several years before. and had come across a yard sale. where there were books for sale. and there was this old bible for sale. and he bought it for a couple bucks. and he brought it back to st. louis and he was reading my book. about the essex. about captain paw lured. he looked back and said what it was the name inside that bible? he opened it up and it was the pollard family bible. so he said you know should i have this? don't you think it should be somewhere else? i said the folks at the nantucket historical association would love to have it and sure enough, this wonderful gentlemen scented out. it was in the mail by that week by that point there was an essex exhibit.

and within the week the pollard family bible was an exhibit. . so for me it was the power of history to bubble up. once the book came out i got a card from the rams del family, i grew up in pittsburgh the maritime center of the universe and they were descended from the rams out on the essex. and they said they had an oral tradition in the family that when it came to grandpa, whenever it was time for dinner, they all sat down right away. immediately. they all knew what would happen when it grandpa rams delegate hungry. another tradition that came down. . it's been fun when the book came out. it's like something that the

story just kept on happening and it was a really wonderful. >> yes, we have the bible in the collection? we had our 2015 show. >> by the way, your exhibit was terrific it was so fun. you had a game, basically people could -- you would be one of the crew members, right. you would find out what happened. i was talking to someone who was at that point sitting a couple of four-year-olds, twins. when i got one character and the other one got another character and one of the twins died, the other survived. it was a huge hit. >> thank you. for those in the audience, you may not have had the chance to see it but when we represented the story of the essex in 2015

we looked at one of the core ideas of the story. we really wanted our visitors to come away with it. and that the story involves a journey it was a key part of what it became it involved real people, again, getting back to that connection to real people. we built a reproduction vote of the right scale. that you could sit in. and you could read quotes, a production of quotes. there was a big mural of the ocean. but we did is that we had a path on the floor you could follow their journey. to the whale, past the whale, the blue split up all the people on reef henderson i'll. each card had a five or six places. it would say, i drew the card of charles ramsdell. did he stay on anderson island? he did not. he was not one of those men. was he one of the first people? that's what would happen. the visitor could see what

happened. many visitors would rightful to the cards. 20 men, 20 cards. they would always be looking for george pollard. those cars went fast. you could get randomly any of them. very much for grounding that horrible journey in getting your mind around what it might have been like these were real people. the survivors came back and had whole lives. whole lives at sea, actually. we have artifacts from that. and some of the great art is the houses in which they live. in which he relieving within a museum in many ways. i live off of orange street. the owen chase house is still there. the nixon, the house thomas nixon was in when he was in the guesthouse, nantucket are's no longer hunted whales by this point they fished for tourists

and thomas nicholson had a guesthouse that is on north water street and is part of the hardware harsh complex. there is the pollard house on center street. it's amazing. you go to the cemetery, there's all this, owen chases grave is there. i had a remarkable opportunity to take two of owen chases descendants, a sister and brother to his grave before the book came out. and they have his portrait >> it's here now. >> yes, it brought home to me when that this is a local story its local history. in one sense for me. one of the aims i had in heart of the sea was to take would i

learned as local in my book about nantucket. to try to make it more universal. to really focus on this as an endurance situation. as what happens to people in the worst situations. i wanted to not make it just another whaling story. but something where if you grew up in topeka, kansas, never seen the sea, you might be drawn in to the human element. that is what it is it's the human element if we don't engage with history emotionally it ultimately means nothing to us >> yes, absolutely we've been talking now for about 50 minutes. we have questions that people have been submitting. i think we will segue. we will segway into it. and so the first question we have is somebody who noticed you mentioned in your book that male sperm whales are sometimes

referred to as carpenter fish. from laos declines they make to announce themselves to potential mates. there is the story of whether the hammering of repairing the damaged while boat may have attracted the whale that attacked the essex so the person asked if there's been any research into whether it was the repair work to the boat that led to the attack? >> yes, when i was researching the book i reached out to our white head. one of the foremost sperm will experts on earth him his wife, their children, took a sailboat and basically sailed very close to where the essex went down with high tech listening devices underwater. listening, the first ones really to develop a good sense of how sperm whales communicate. and it's through this process of clicks.

the females have clicks, the males have more of a killing. more like a boom sound. and clearly it's a real language. almost morphs coated like, a sequence of clicks. in so i asked, i emailed out and i said, i explained as best i could from the evidence, what did he think happened? he said who knows. he said, he was very familiar obviously with following the wales. he would tend to think maybe the whale just sort of blundered into the ship by accident and then got angry and then came after it these are, sperm whales, the males, are very territorial. they are like elephants. the male sperm whales will attack each other, fight over the females of the pod of whales and who knows.

it's ultimately -- i have not heard a definitive, you know, explanation for what happened. unless we can find a descendant of the sperm oil who has the oral traditions that granddaddy used to tell i don't think we will know that that is one of the great things about the story. at the center of it is this question what was the whale thinking? chase, looking at the whale, attacking, coming at them, felt in his account, it feels like there is something going on. melvyn channels it. there's some kind of malevolent deity what's going on there? it made its way into movie dick. you can only imagine that will never know and that is wet lens, gives history real legs where

something huge, of huge importance, happens and ultimately will never really know what exactly happened >> yes, that's somewhat segue into one of the other questions which is about, so we have these accounts that say would happen. they drew straws in pollard's boat, as certain men died they reverted to cannibalism. basically it's how do we know they're telling us the truth? >> that is the question when it comes to all efforts in history. one thing when it comes to this, peoples accounts, when it comes to letters, they are biased. they are the person telling their side of the story. when it comes to chases account it's the narrative of an officer putting a voyage that went really bad in the best

possible light. even when it comes to his involvement. what's interesting is that as a historian you want stuff that it is recorded as close to the event as possible. when things are so hot. four people had a chance to think too much about them. if you're thinking about their own reputation. that's what's really interesting about the letter. describing pollard's first account. it's this interested person recording this. coming right out of his mouth, as soon as possible. and nickerson's i can't was recorded later in life. that is suspect. you know? on the other side he had the chance to talk to other survivors. to get information that chase may not have had he's also coming from a different perspective. he was 15.

he was a common boy he had no great professional stake in what happened and yet what he reveals are details about what happened during the initial collision that chase chose not to include. that the whale, after first colliding in the side of the ship, ended up on the side floating stunned, knocked out beside the ship. its tail was very close to the rider. and chase had the opportunity to pick up a killing lance, an 18 foot spear, and tried to kill the whale that dared to attack the ship. and he realized then that detail was so close to the rider that if provoked the whale could take out the steering wheel. this would be a disaster. as nicholson says, he knew what would would've happened, he

would not have risked losing the rudder chase makes no mention of it. it's interesting. in that instance i think i tend to believe nickerson on this. i don't think he's making it up. he had great respect for chase. he was in his wheel boat when they finally were rescued. on the other side nickerson claims they never had to eat anybody. it was the bread. chase provides clear evidence there was, you know, they were reduced to survival cannibalism. nickerson with an old man who did not want to be remembered as a cannibal. and so what you need to do is look at the various sources. think about how they are going, how their point of view would've bent. bent wet they said. ultimately you need to do it you can do to make it on your own judgment. that's why people need to return to these stories over,

and over again there's no such thing as a definitive account of any historical event particularly as we move through time. people are interested in different kinds of things you look back, if you're interested in telling a story different way. >> one of the other questions here is asking about other differences between chased and nickerson's perspectives i will sort of address if you don't mind it's so fascinating to read nickerson's account handwritten later in life. he clearly has chases account with him. he's reading that, it's a prompt to memory. and he fills an other details. or he chooses not to engage. with certain things that chase says. again, the bread versus cannibalism. but really wet chase does, wet nickerson does is fill in the

detail from the perspective of a 15 year old boy. instead of the perspective of the 20 some odd-year-old officer with a career. and they make a really interesting study that way. widely available, anybody can read the sources. the nickerson journal is an hour collection, it's digitalized, available on our website if you want to read it >> it's highly readable it's a nice script and the images are just amazing and just think, it must have been a pretty dramatic process for nickerson, to relive it. to recorded. to write it all out. and it makes it an interesting process in any event. >> another question that we've had is asking about the island that they were -- that they stopped at for the week on their voyage. if they didn't know the name of

the island, they were on the wrong one, how did the rescuers know where to get them? do you want me to answer that? do you want to talk to that as well? >> yes, take it away. >> they get to the island. and they use what's navigational equipment they have to figure out where they are. and the open there about each. it's a numerical practical navigator. it's the bible for navigators. and they look up and it says there at doocy's. however it's named. it's a doozy's island. that's where they think they are. the three men stay behind in everybody else goes along. and pollard and everyone else is picked up. they hire a vessel higher earning across the pacific to stop at doocy's island. to pick up three men. so the captain vessel says yes. i can find it. i know where it is a. go get them and he sells out and there's nobody there.

there's no evidence anyone has been there. but he knows the area to know there is another island across the horizon. it's not in the book. that is henderson. that's where they were. >> what's really interesting is henderson island has since become a kind of vortex for plastic, floating plastic. and i think it has to do with why the essex guys ended up there. the currents all sort of converge on this island so that is why those three whale boats were up there. and the beach where they landed is now just full of plastic garbage. there's this once virgin island, it was when -- not a virgin island, but it was absolutely pristine and back when i was writing.

i had the great fortune to run across a scientific study of the ecology of henderson island. from a scientist that lived there for a good amount of time. also it's a photographs. it was hugely impressive and helpful to me. to see now in the last two decades what's happened to the place is just heartbreaking. >> yes, i think we have time for just maybe one more. and are there any other examples after this of wales attacking whaling ships? >> a good question, yes there are. and the question is what was happening here? where the whales getting more aggressive as they figured it out? there's also the possibility that there were plenty of well ships prior to the essex that never made it back had they been destroyed by a will

beforehand? it did not happen a lot by any means but it did happen. while melville was writing movie dig. he was revising it in the summer of 1851 there was word that came to him of a whale ship being attacked. and he would write in a letter, i think it's hawthorne, has my evil arch raised this monster? talk about, wow, man! i was researching heart of the sea, i explored every instance in which a whale, in which we have recording of wales attacking ships. even during world war ii there are accounts of sperm whales attacking medal naval ships. who knows what behavior

inspired that. but it did happen not a lot though. but, you know, it was the wellman's worst nightmare if ever a full sperm whale decided to attack a ship, it would make it hard for someone. >> absolutely. we've reached the end of our time here this evening thank you everyone for joining us from me math philbrick, we're so happy to have this top on the essex on the anniversary. >> thank you again >> absolutely >> really appreciated thank you again to the nhs without this organization i could not have written the book. and all nantucket are's oh the organization a huge debt of gratitude. >> thank you very much. thank you all for joining us. we really appreciate it.

during a period of the 19th century nantucket off the coast of massachusetts was a hub for whaling around the world made peggi godwin of the nantucket historical situation discussed at the history of whaling and the impact it had on the small island community. the nantucket historical association hosted this top and provided the video >> good evening everyone. welcome to the intent to historical association we