the work depicted in the film relates to the fledgling space program, then two years away from its first mission. watch tonight beginning at 8:00 eastern and enjoy american history tv every weekend on c-span3. american history tv on c-span3. every weekend documenting america's story. funding for american history tv comes from these companies who support c-span3 as a public service. up next on american history tv, trail of tears association president jack baker talks about the forced relocation of native americans in the early 19th century. mr. baker, a member of the cherokee nation, also discusses his own family's voluntary mov to oklahoma. the university of oklahoma center for the study of american

indian law and policy and preservation of virginia. >> it now gives me great pleasure to introduce jack baker. he is a former member of the tribal council of the cherokee nation where he served for 11 years representing those cherokee citizens residing outside of the cherokee nation. he is the national president of the trail of tears association. he is also the current president of the oklahoma historical society and serves on a number of other boards. he has done extensive cherokee research for more than 50 years and has authored+ articles and edited various books on cherokee history. i can say that he continued his research even yesterday at university of virginia. it gives me great pleasure to

introduce jack baker. [ applause ] >> thanks, elizabeth. it is an honor to be part of this symposium but i come before you as a citizen of the united states and also a citizen of the cherokee nation. and i'm an eighth generation oklahoman because of the trail of tears. >> at the time of the forced removal, the cherokee owned farms and even large plantations.

as lindsay pointed out, almost every family of the cherokee nation had at least one litter member and it compares to the high illiteracy rate around the cherokee nation. so with the publication in 1828 of our newspaper, the cherokee phoenix, the cher keys became well informed on the issues of removal. by 1819 our people had seated 19% of our original lands. lindsay pointed this out also. at the time of removal the dark area at the bottom is all that

was left. so these remaining lands we sought to keep while our white neighbors sought to have them removed. the u.s. supreme court recognized the sovereignty of the cherokee nation, and yet even this did not save us from the treaty signed by a handful of cher keys. with major rich as one of the principal leaders. the signers had no authority to speak for the cherokee nation yet congress ratified this treaty on may 18, 1836 by only a single vote. and it was signed by president andrew jackson on may 23rd. and the cherokees were given two year from that date to remove. our principal chief and tribal council continue in their efforts to no avail. in late 1838 general winfield

scott and his troops began to round up our people. removal force had been constructed throughout the cherokee nation as places to temporarily contain the cherokees as they were gathered up for removal. several of these forces were constructed years before during the creek removal. several hundred creeks had fled into the cherokee nation to avoid removal and soldiers went throughout the nation in an attempt to find them. so it is sometimes questioned as to why the cherokees didn't go ahead and remove as they were aware of the force being constructed. reverend steven foreman, who was a half-blood cherokee, who had been educated in the mission schools in the cherokee nation

and later at princeton, wrote the following letter to the american mission board in boss onto may 31, 1838. candy's creek mission. reverend david green. says, very dear sir, from the date of my letter, perceive i'm still in the cherokee nation east and still in the cherokee mission. how much longer should we remain here in our own lands to enjoy our rights and privileges, i do not know. from the present aspect of affairs we shall very soon be without house and home. indeed, ever since the 23rd of may, we've been looking almost daily for the soldiers to come and turn us out of our houses.

but i've stated distinctly to the officers at headquarters what i thought of this so-called treaty. and what course i intend to pursue in the event that no new treaty was made. and i see no reasons yet why i should change my mind. my determination and the determination of the large majority of the cherokee nation is never to recognize this fraudulent instrument as a treaty, nor remove under it until we are forced to do so at the point of the bayonette. it may seem unwise and hazardous that we should pursue such a force, but i'm fully satisfied it's the only one we can pursue with a clear conscience. reverend daniel butcreek who had

been with the mission 20 years wrote in his journal on saturday, may 26th. in georgia we're supposed to be 8,000 cherokees, these in general were taken just as they were found by the soldiers without permission to stop either for friends or property. as the soldiers advanced towards the house, two little children fled in fright to the woods. the women pleaded for permission to seek them or wait until they came in, giving positive assurances she would then follow on and join the company but all treaties remain. and it was not until a day or two after she would get permission from one of her friends to go back after her lost children. amid deaf and dumb, with surprise at the approach of armed men, attempted to make his escape, and because he didn't hear the command of his pursuers

were shot dead on the spot. women absent from their families receiversed and men from their wives and children were not allowed to return. also children being forced from home were dragged off amid strangers. cattle, horses, hogs, household furniture, clothing, and money, not with them when taken were left. and it's said that the white inhabits around stood with open arms to seize whatever property they could put their hands on. some few assisted afterwards in getting some part of their lost goods. thus, in two or three days about 8,000 people, many of whom were in good circumstances, and some rich, were rendered homeless, houseless and penniless and exposed to all of the ills of

captivity. and a few months later, the wife of dr. iliza butler, the wife of charles butler, wrote to a childhood friend in massachusetts. butler was a missionary and was in prison and was happy to see lindsey mentioned him as part of this. because i assume it's because of the case, wooster versus georgia, because unfortunately, his sacrifice for the most part has been overlooked. but part of lucy's letter written from frayclay, tennessee, states, i agree to intermission airy labors in 1927 and lived among the cherokees and began teaching and remained there until 1830 and we moved to a mission station just west of that city in georgia. here i had not lived a year before my husband was shut up in prison by the authorities of

georgia. for refusing to take an oath to support their measures against the cherokee. or to leave his situation or his station which was in the charter limits of that state. after laboring nearly a year and a half in the penitentiary, he returned to the missionary labors among the cherokees but in a little more than a year, the same law, which had sent him to prison found means to break up our mission station. we then had an invitation from the cherokees commence a station at this place that is red clay, tennessee, and the method of taking the cherokees as prisoners were various. she goes on to state it was common for a party of soldiers

attached to a wagon and train to be sent to a certain neighborhood. on arriving at the house and sometimes were able to take large articles in the wagon. but many times they did not tarry long enough to take their clothes with them. if their horses were at hand, they were often permitted to ride them. but as often as not, they were driven on foot at the point of the bayonet. if parents couldn't carry their children on horses or their own backs, they were ordered to get in the back. if not they were thrown in by soldiers and driven on a rough road at such speed in some

instances were severely injured. perhaps the prisoners were driven with more haste from their dwellings on the account of frequent rumor of whose illits and the fear of this led some soldiers to gather with neighbors in the night. to accomplish they'd enter a cherokee dwelling and a family in the midst of their slumbers would be aroused for their march. here would be grouped together the aged, infirmed, middle-aged, youth and children of all sizes. gather the people in such haste whether by night or by day has been the occasion of much distress and loss of property. husbands and wives, parents and children have been separated and carried off to different camps where they have known nothing of each other for weeks or months .

they were first taken to 31 stockades in the cherokee nation. and the conditions were deplorable. people had no shelter. only a few blankets as some were able to grab as they were being forced from their homes and inadequate food. these stockades were referred to as concentration camps and may have been the first time this term was used. from there they were taken to 11 internment camps. ten were in tennessee. the remaining one was in alabama. on may 31, the reverend of greater michigan tells of one group being taken to the internment camps. he tells of one group. he states, astoundingly a little before sunset, a company of about 200 cherokees were driven into our lane.

the day had been raining and, of course, all men, women and children were dripping wet with no change of clothing and scarcely a blanket fit to cover them. as some of the women when taken from their houses had on their poorest dress. this of course was the amount of their clothing for a journey of about 800 miles. as soon as permission was obtained from the officers we opened every door to these poor sufferers. mother brought their little babies to our fire and stripped off their only covering to dry. oh, how heart rendering was the sight of those little sufferers, their little lips blue and troubling with cold, i'd like to tell you how the removal effected my fourth grade grandfather, james hare, family tradition is that his mother-in-law, lindsey ratley

gave birth to a baby girl after the round-up started, and after being driven to one of the internment camps, she became too weak to cross the stream and she was stabbed by one of the soldiers and died soon after. and reverend butler reported in his journal almost the exact same story. he states, we also learned when the last company were taken over the river at ross's landing, a woman in the pangs of childbirth stood as long as possible and then fell in the river. and the soldier stabbed her with his bayonet and soon caused her death. james had married her daughter

only a few months before and lindsey's other five children accompanied james and his wife on the forced removal and was by them. so in mid-june, three groups of about 800 each started west from ross's landing in chattanooga, tennessee, two without. one by mocsen bend and the others crossed an old road. of that group only 635 arrived in the west. with 146 deaths and two births being recorded. there's a severe drought at the time with extreme heat and james harris mother katey north along with her father was in this group. her father, william north, was a white man who married a cherokee p woman six years before, couple months before he was described upwards of 100 years and

completely blind for the last 25 years. there's no record of his arriving in the west. however, in a series of interviews conducted in the chattanooga area around 1900, mr. a.g. carter tells this story. a white man named north married an indian woman who later became blind. he, says mr. carter, heard they threw him in the river on the way west because he was so much trouble. but because of the high casualties of these first groups, permission was given to the later removal of the other groups until fall when it would be cooler. also the cherokee leaders petitioned general scott that they be allowed to conduct their own removal. permission was granted. james harris' father, harold conrad, was the leader of the first detachment to lead that

fall. however, he soon became too ill to continue as a leader and had to relinquish the position. james harris' sister, bety, the wife of ashhopper, traveled in the detachment. and reverend butrick also accompanied this attachment, wrote in his journal saturday, december 1, 1838, on a thursday, two children, one a daughter of our dear sister ashhopper were called into eternity. so james harris now lost his grandfather, his wife's mother and his niece. and by this time the extreme heat of summer had given way to an unseasonably cold winter, and he further wrote, on december 26, he descended attachment south of mississippi stopped by floating ice.

mr. hill's brand attachment stopped by the same means at the ohio river. december 27th, we proceeded with the detachment, about six miles where we camped for a week. here the snow increased to three or four inches and the weather was excessively cold. lucy butler, that i mentioned earlier, a letter written december 20th states, my husband has preached among the cherokees and tended on them as physician since they were first taken. last summer by their request he was appointed a physician by general scott in a camp about eight miles from our station. and after arrangements were made for the cherokee to remove themselves, he was appointed by mr. ross to serve as physician and accompany them on the way west. the last letter i have was from jonesburg, illinois, on the 19th

of november, about 20 miles this side of the mississippi, did not accomplish quite half their journey at that time. did have considerable sickness. about 27 of their number lay buried between that place and the one where they commenced their journey. during this time, george hicks, one of the conductors of the removal detachment sent the following letter to headquarters in south carolina in 1839. my dear friend and brother, we left the cherokee nation east, the land of our nativity on the first day of last november, whose ears ever open to their cries, have arrived thus far on

our journey to the west. the fall and winter has been very cold, and we have necessarily suffered a great deal from exposure, from cold and fatigue. our people, a great many of them were very poor and very destitute of clothing and of the means of rendering themselves comfortable. we done all in our power to remedy their destitute situation and contributed very much to their comfort by supplying them so far as we could with clothing, blankets and shoes. but still, we have suffered a great deal with sickness and have lost since the 21st of october lost about 35. a great proportion of them were anyoned and children. our numbers were probably over

1100, so a larger amount to attend to and to watch over them caused a great anxiety of mind, and so much responsibility added to the fatigue of traveling brought up a spell of sickness from which i thought i should not recover. but through the adversity of an all-white providence, i have recovered my health. we are now lying about 20 miles south of the mississippi river which we could not cross on account of the ice. we have been lying about for about two weeks. ahead of us were two detachments of cherokees who had to cross before we could cross. there is floating ice which at times is impassable. but still they keep crossing, and i'm in hopes we'll get over in one or two weeks. we will start in the morning

again on our journey west. the roads are all in very bad order as the ground was frozen very deep and there has been, for the last ten days, a general thaw, not even any frost, together with a good deal of wet which will probably make the roads almost impasimpassable. but we must necessarily calculate on suffering a great deal from hardship and exposure before we yet reach our homes in the far west. we look to the almighty for strength and protection to enable us to reach the place of destination. as yet we are hardly halfway. and to look forward on the determination of our journey and our toils, we cannot yet but hope for the best. our principal chief, john ross, left last after he had seen all

the other cherokees on their way west. he traveled by steamboat with a small group of cherokees in order to take those who had been too ill to leave with the regular detachments. and while the various detachments were waiting to cross the mississippi river, he visited the camps, and he wrote the following account. on my arrival with the water detachment at paducah, i received letters from various persons connected with some of the first houses in nashville informed me that it was understood the land detachments had been stopped at the mississippi river by ice. and for various reasons it would be most advisable to transport the immigrants at that point by water. therefore, they sent me proposals for furnishing the steamboats for that purpose. from ohio, i also received

letters from mr. clark jr., one of my principal agents on the route, and they were still detained at the mississippi river. while my presence was indispensably necessary to remove many calculated to deter them from their journey to missouri on roads that were said to be very bad and would be impossible to procure supplies for themselves and their horses. these reports were expected to be put in circulation with the view to create alarms among the people, that they might insist on taking water at that point. and note that these rumors were started by the first families of nashville which, i'm sure most of you remember, is the home of andrew jackson. so these were his cronies, many

of whom made a great deal of many of the removals of the early tribes, so they were seeking to profit or for the cherokee removal. so it was also suggested it might be deemed advisory to transfer some of the sick to the water detachment. i therefore deemed it my duty to repair to them without hesitation. at first i determined the propriety to williams' ferry to retrieve most of the sick. but the captain of the boat advised against it for reasons that neither he himself or the pilot do anything for the navigation of that part of the mississippi river. so he ascended the mississippi river and leaving my sick family and other immigrants to await my

return which should be as speedily as possible. about 12:00 that night, i was landed at williams ferry from whom i ascertained that the detachment had crossed the river and camped a short distance off. george hicks, peter hildebrand and richard taylor's detachment had not yet crossed for that purpose. i made it distinctly known that no change would or could be made from completing the journey by land, that it was evident these alarming tales about the roads to missouri were in great measure magnified for effect. however true, the scarcity of high prices for supplies on the road might prove to be that supplies should be procured,

cost what they would, if they were to be had at all within reach of their travel. they took up the march the next morning which was done accordingly. while the cherokees were in charge of their own removal, there was never any complaint about lack of food on the way. and ross goes on to say, the boats generally laden, it could not be prevailed upon to stop and take me on board. after thus being detained two or three days, i determined not to wait any longer for passage by water, and i procured the loan of a horse and rode three days by boat accompanied by my brother. and the next morning after my return, we slipped cable. within a week from that timeund

my children became motherless and the remains of mrs. ross were left in a strange land. she died in little rock, arkansas and she was buried in little rock. three of the 12 detachments arrived in the cherokee nation in january, did cross the mississippi before the ice stopped the other detachments. the others arrived in february and march. it's often been estimated that as many as 4,000 of the 16,000 cherokees died as a result of the forced removal. there appears to have been only about 1200 deaths due to the actual removal, however, there are remaining additional deaths immediately following the removal that reduced the population of the cherokee nation by at least an additional 1600 people. so there were at least close to 3,000 deaths caused by the removal. in may of 1825, the cherokees

had passed an act imposing a death penalty on anyone who should propose a sale for the exchange of their lands. after their arrival in the present cherokee nation, a group of cherokees met secretly and sent its various members of the treaty party to death based on that law. major ridge, along with his son john ridge, and his nephew elias boudinot were all executed at various places in 1839, and one of the executionists was james hare. so the trail of tears is an example of what can happen when prejudice combines with greed. it was a direct result of the supreme court decision in wooster versus georgia being

ignored. while we as cherokees faced a great adversity of the forced removal, we survived. we immediately began to reestablish our nation. we were able to adapt to our new lands and prosper in them, and chief hoskin after lunch will talk about the rebuilding of our nation and who we are today. so this ability of our people to survive and adapt is a true story of the trail of tears and how we wish it to be remembered. thank you. [ applause ] >> are there any questions? >> i'd like to thank you for sharing with us that very tragic story, and my name is steven atkins. i'm chief of the chickahawnee

tribe. it really just illuminates the blood-thirsty gamers who landed in 1867. by 1699, nine out of ten of the virginia woodland indians had perished. so the story you told really resonates with me, because forced removal of the chickahominee indians started in 1846, and across the states they have skillfully, artfully left out that history, so people are largely ignorant of the tragedies that occurred among the indigenous people beginning on may 16, 1647.

>> thank you. we've had the same problem in our oklahoma textbooks. at least when i was growing up, there was virtually nothing about the indian tribes. for oklahoma history, adversity started with the land runs and our lands in 1889. they've improved somewhat but not to the degree they should. >> what is the status of those cherokees that did not do -- were not -- because of various reasons, either they married a white person and did not do the trail of tears. my understanding is they are not on the cherokee register and there's no way they can be on the cherokee register because they did not do the trail of tears by a multitude of reasons? >> right. lindsey mentioned the 1835 treaty provided that if a person

was able that he could apply and then become a citizen of the fate and remain in the nation. excuse me, remain in georgia or some of the other states. i think there were about 150 in georgia that elected to do this. but he also mentioned they gave up their citizenship in the tribe to become citizens of the u.s. so while they are of cherokee descent, they're not eligible for citizenship in the cherokee nation because of that, because our role is based on residency and our citizens in 1902. and i liken it to the fact that i have german ancestors, and so i have german descent, but i certainly am not going back to

germany and declare that i'm a german citizen. >> thank you. i have a question regarding the native americans having plantations you mentioned, and also, were there united states laws regarding native americans owning or having enslaved after afterry -- africans or african-americans? also, were there enslaved african-americans who moved along with you during the migration to the north and to the west? >> yes. there were a few cherokees who did own african-american slaves during this period. the ones with the larger plantations for the most part

shipped or made sure that their slaves which, unfortunately, they considered their property, they made sure they made it to the cherokee west without any problems. but there were a few cherokees who owned maybe one or two african-americans, and they accompanied them on the trail. in butrick's journal, when he was accompanied on the richard taylor detachment, he even describes at one point where he hired an african-american lady from the owner to do some washing for him and his wife. so we don't -- we recognize that there were many african-americans on the removal of the five tribes, but unfortunately there is not a lot of documentation or stories with them. we would like to include more of

those stories as we find them. thank you. [ applause ] weeknights this month, we're featuring american history tv programs as a preview of what's available every weekend on c-span3. tonight the space shuttle's 40th anniversary. on april 12, 1981, space shuttle columbia lift off from florida's kennedy space center with two crew members aboard. in celebration of this feat we start with the 1979 nasa film "where dreams come true." the film highlights women and minorities' contributions to nasa. watch tonight beginning at 8:00 eastern and enjoy american history tv every weekend on c-span3. american history tv on

c-span3. every weekend documenting america's story. funding for american history tv comes from these companies who support c-span3 as a public service. up next, stony brook history professor paul kelton talked about how cholera spread in the 1830s, affecting millions of people, including native americans. we talked to him at the native historians meeting in sacramento, california in 2018. >> paul kelton, professor of history at stony brook university and the author of many books including "epidemics of enslaved men." let's talk about cholera. what was it and how widespread was it in the 1800s? >> the cholera epidemic was one of the firsob